Electrex Stator.....Which way is out?

[Rick G]

I believe your talking about the double lip seal, for the starter. You can probably get one from a Yamaha dealer, BUT most likley it will be the same piece of crap the factory puts in, the one with NO springs on the lips.  You want a seal with  at least a spring on one lip and preferably  on both. Also Yamaha will get 5 times as much for it. Yamaha gets 38.00 for a set of fork seals and a bearing mart will get 4.40  each.
If you can't get them, I can go to the big city ,Salem (180,000) or the  bigger city , Portland  1.5  million ,(just guessing)  and send you one.

[RussD]

Thanx Rick......a generous offer! ?You're right......I meant the double lip seal. Re-read Nick's post above too quickly before typing my own. I'll shop around down here & see what I can come up with. If need be, I may take you up on your offer. Thanx again!

Russ

[RussD]

OK guys........I just let my fingers do the walkin', and surprise....... Findlay actually has several bearing houses!!! Who'da thunk it??   :o   Looks like it's about a $2 part.

Anyways......Called a couple of them, and this is what I'm coming up with. I can either get a single lip seal in 6mm, or a double lip seal in 7mm. For some reason, none of them seem to have the double lip in a 6mm width. Soooooo.......which way am I better off going, or doesn't it really matter? Is the 7mm too wide/big?

Also....Do I just need one of these, or 2? Please advise....

[h2olawyer]

Russ -

I put a 7mm seal in mine and it fit fine.  It should work OK for you too.  Sure beats paying Yamaha's high prices for inferior quality.  Bearing supliers are plentiful in both industrial or agricultural areas.

Rob

[RussD]

Thanx for the feedback Rob!  

So what is a water lawyer.....Are you like Erin Brakovich, or did she go after an electrical company.....still haven't seen the movie?

[h2olawyer]

Water lawyers are a unique breed in the western US where water is scarce.  We negotiate trans-basin diversions, file water augmentation plans and diversion rights, help clients apply for well permits, protect ditch company rights - things like that.  Water court litigation tends to be less formal but just as serious as civil or criminal court.  Can't make a living as just a water lawyer so I also do some business, agricultural and real estate law too.

I haven't seen anything law profession related since the first season of LA Law - except the original "Witness For The Prosecution" with Tyrone Power, Charles Laughton and Marlene Dietrich.  Real life law is not nearly as exciting as portrayed in the movies or TV.

I just wish my F-250 was as reliable as my Vision!  Have put in new rear axle seals and a new water pump this summer and now I need to put new seals in the power steering pump and gearbox.  Glad I have decent mechanical skills - can't diagnose things too well, but I manage to fix things right when I finally figure out what's wrong.  The work is more fun than law but it doesn't pay nearly as well! ;D

Rob

[QBS]

Russ: single Vs. double lip design

FYI: My starter had its OEM seal replaced with a single lip design eighteen years and approx. 86,000 miles ago.  This seal is still functioning as new.  Have replaced the motor brushes twice since then.  Neither surgery revealed any oil inside the motor.  Cheers.

[RussD]

Good to know......Thanx QBS!

[RussD]

OK......Crazy Cooter's on the loose again!! Took the starter apart tonight. Went in armed with a printout of Lucky's directions from his website, and my handy, dandy new Haynes manual. (Incidentally Lucky.....nice website! A lot of the electrical stuff was over my head, though I did learn a few things, but it's obvious how much time, effort & detail you've put into it)!!!

Had to order that 20x35x6 double lip spring seal Nick was talking about, as none of the places here in town had one in stock.....no single lip or 7mm variations either. I even got so desperate to get one right now, that I went to the new Yamaha dealer here in town to see what they had. The kid was utterly confused.....don't think he'd ever even heard of the bike. Finally, the guy in service said I'd have to order a whole new starter, because they didn't just sell that seal by itself......YEAH, RIGHT!! ?Like I'm going to order a whole new starter over a $2 part!?!

Anyway, tore the starter out tonight. Everything inside was covered in a thick oil/grease. Should there be any grease, if that's indeed what it was, in there? How about oil.....Is there supposed to be a little in there, or none at all? Everything in the Haynes Manual pictures look "oil free", but not sure if that's because they've "already cleaned them up". Haven't sprayed everything with brake cleaner yet....Just wiped it all down with paper towels for now. Which calls to mind another question......I think Nick or somebody mentioned using a "dechlorinted brake cleaner". Lucky's site just said brake cleaner......any difference, and if so, does it matter which is used?

Also, what does that double lip seal replace? Everything just kinda spilled out when I pulled the starter off the bottom of the motor. Going by Fig. 8.8 on page 153 of my Haynes manual, all I'm finding is that O-ring, & some washers....the other O-ring is still inside the Gear End Cover. Is the Gear End Cover supposed to stay on the crank case, or am I supposed to get that off too? Right now, it's still on my crank case. I'm guessing somewhere in that section is where that seal is supposed to go, but even in Fig. 8.8, not sure what's it's supposed to be replacing.....All they're showing are the O-rings & the snap ring??

By the way......Looked at my old stator again tonight, and it seems that several of the coils in the vicinity of the wire harness are indeed a bit "crumbly" as someone had suggested I check.

Hey......Check me out.....I'm a Junior Member now.....Whooohooo!!!    :P


I may be crazy, but I 'aint dumb.......I'm Craaaazy Cooter!!

[Rick G]

You were supposed to remve the starter cable and the two bolts holding it on to the engine NOT the two screws that hold it together!, But no harm is done , remove the end of the strater thats still in the engine (put a pan under it, you will loose 1/2 qt of oil when you remove it)
The seal is located inside  the "nose "of the starter, so remove the circlip outboard of the gear and then remove the circlip thtas upagainst the bearing (you will need a pair of circlip pliars to do this , DON"T dig it out with a screw driver!!)
Then block the nose up a couple of pieces of 2x4 and hit the end of the shaft with a soft hammer, Just don't hit it with a steel hammer! get a plastic or shot filled hammer. as a last resort you can use an aluminum drift  to knock it out.
 When its  out  you will see the seal , pay attention on how it was in there so you will know how to put it back . You can use an old socket (something around  1"  to drive the seal in "GENTLY"  
Clean everything  then you will need to run a little 180 wet or dry around the commutator and look at it carefully , it may need to be under cut, too, now you can reassemble it , tbe sure to bench check it, before you put it back on the bike . Just jump it from the car battery POSITIVE goes to the   bolt. If it gets beyond you ,remember Jason rebuilds starters.

[Walt_M.]

Russ, there is not supposed to be any oil in the starter. The fact that there was means you need a new seal. Follow Rick's instructions for re-assembly.

[QBS]

RRD: FYI:  Inside the "nose" section of the starter are planetary gears that run in grease.  This is the only area of the starter that should have any evidence of petroleum products.  Upon reassembly of the planetary gears, it is critical that each of the two small "planet" gears be placed in the exact location that allows the central armature shaft gear to turn freely with no binding.  It is very easy to place one or both of the two planet gears just one tooth out of correct position such that the central gear penetrates and looks correct,...BUT will bind when turned.  Be prepared to play with the assembly process of this area of the starter until you get it right.  Also,  if it was me doing this job, I would replace the grease in this area with clean, heavy duty, high temperature grease.

Regarding Rick G.s' comment about "undercutting" the armature communtator, this is a good idea.  It will prolong the life of your motor brushes.  This process requires that a lathe be used to cut a thin amount of material from the communtator end of the armature.  Just enough so as to give the communtator a uniform surface across its entire area.  This procedure is very commonly done at alternator and starter repair shops for a very modest fee.  It takes just a minute or so to do.  

While you have you motor disassembled, give serious consideration to replacing your motor brushes.  The same shop that is doing the communtator cutting should be able to mount suitable replacement brushes on your brush mounting plate.  For your referance: If it was me involved in this process, I would anticipate paying no more than about $25.00 for the new brushes mounted on their mounting plate and getting the commutator cut down.

Once you get all this done and get the starter properly reassembled and installed with its new oil seal, the starter should give you at least 40,000 (probably a lot more) miles of trouble free service.

I went through this exact same process two months ago and ended up spending $15.00.  Cheers.

[RussD]

Thanx Rick, Walt, & QBS!

The entire inside walls of the starter motor case were covered in that grease/oil. Not so much that I could pour it out......but a good 1/4" of buildup on the walls. So maybe I wasn't supposed to have taken that part of the starter apart Rick, but it sounds like possibly my faux pas might have actually worked in my favor here!! ? ;D   Actually, I was just following Lucky's directions from his website, and they specifically say to remove the 2 "long" bolts holding the starter together.  

Is brake cleaner brake cleaner then, or do I need to worry about finding this "dechlorinated" type? And what's this 180 stuff you mentioned Rick?

Also, are the brushes attached sideways to that brush holder assembly plate? Do I need to "pop" them off or something? I think I see them, but afraid to monkey with them, as I don't want to break anything. In Fig. 26.6 on page 151 of the Haynes manual, it looks like it's loose off that Holder Assembly Plate, but still attached to the wire & bolt. That's the one they tell you to measure against "specifications". What "specifications".......are they somewhere in the Haynes manual?

I saw Jason's link on Lucky's page. What does he charge? I'm assuming that if I can get it done locally, it would be cheaper for me, as there'd be no S/H, plus save mail time. Thanx again guys......You're a devoted crew, that's for sure!!

[Lucky]

A couple of notes:
the brush lengths are given elsewhere in the service manual, I don't have it in front of me at the moment.  it's in metric mm's so get a set of calip[ers & mesure them, or take them to the shop.

pay particular attention to what QBSsaid about lining up the gears.

if you need brushes, Yamaha sells the whole brush plate for about $50. i've found that it's not unusual for the plate to become bent under the torque of starting the bike, & never sit's quite right after that.  it can be straightened, but will probably bend again.

Jason undercuts the mica & turns the commutators.  he does a great job & I THINK he charges $50 - 60 for the whole job, but i'm not sure.
--Lucky

[RussD]

OK......Got everything cleaned up with the brake cleaner. Once the brush clip was clean, I could see how to get the brushes out. Took the positive one out & measured it. I'm showing about 3/8" or 1 centimeter?? Does that sound right, and if so, what kind of shape does that leave me in......Do I need new brushes, or am I cool? I'm ashamed to say I was never very good at metric conversions in school......so not sure how many mm's that translates into.

[Lucky]

You should be fine on brush length.
clean it all out, replace the seal, grease the gears & you should be all set, unless the commutator (copper sections the brushes ride on) have any kind of visible groove, then you need Jason.

[QBS]

New brushes are so cheap, don't even think about going back together with what you have.  I have never experianced the bent brush holder plate problem that Lucky refered to.

Also....when you have the unit reassembled and ready for insertion into the engine, put a light coating of grease on the large external oil sealing "O" ring and the walls of the orface that the motor slides into when it enters the engine.  This will make the assembly/insertion process go much easier.   Cheers.

[Lucky]

It might because I live in a small state, but I could never find any place that had the right brushes, they were allways the carbon based ones. I checked all kinds of rebuilders, finnaly found a place & they closed the following spring. If anyone has a source that has the right ones stock, Please post it on Rons Parts resource page...

As for the bending I was refering to the tabs that kind of lock them in place & keep the plate from turning. I was kind of rushed in my earlier reply.

when installing the starter, I've found that even with greasing the o-ring, it still takes a little coaxing with the handle end of a hammer...maybe my o-rings a little on the thick side...

[RussD]

Could that then be why all that oil/grease was on the inside of the motor housing......whoever owned the bike previously greased it up to get the commutator to slide back in? Maybe it wasn't a bad leak like I first thought, and that would explain why there was grease in there.

[Lucky]

No, what you found was a combination of the grease from the nose gears, which should be there, mixed with oil that seeped past the seal & "dust" from the wearing of the brushes.

No grease goes on the commutator, but just a light dab of grease should be put on the very ends of the armature where they slide into the bushings.

sounds like the seal was just begining to leak