Riders Of Vision

note to Ron: YABB changed "my as_sumption" to "I disagreeumption", lol

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From: "Ritzo Muntinga - Electrex USA"

To: Subject: RE: Attn Ritzo: XZ550 Vision G7 stator

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:38:11 -0800

Hi Lucky, I will have a new design regulator/rectifier for the XZ550 in a few weeks. I will need the temp data for sure to see if my assumption is correct. If that is the case, lowering output will help, and so will an oil cooler. The stator burning at the top is interesting though. I will look into lowering the output, but please provide me with the temp data.

Best regards, Ritzo Muntinga

Electrex USA Ltd. 2948-A Industry St. Oceanside, CA 92054

PH: (760) 433-0184 FX: (760) 433-1052

ritzo@electrexusa.com ? ?http://www.electrexusa.com

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-----Original Message----- From: Lucky . [mailto:luckyvision@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 18:45 To: Ritzo Muntinga - Electrex USA

Subject: Attn Ritzo: XZ550 Vision G7 stator Hi Ritzo,

I just wanted to touch base with you regarding our conversations last fall about the G7 stator failures & R/R Last time we spoke you requested a wiring diagram for the bike and failed stator & R/R, which we have sent.

You were concerned that high oil temps were contributing to the high failure rate, one of our members, Rick Greville, was to tap the case and take oil temp readings, but was sidelined by the bad winter they had in Oregon. I talked with him recently and he expects to get back on that project soon.

When we spoke, you had mentioned that there were plans on development of a heavy duty G7 & RR39. I was wondering if there is any progress on that, or if you might be waiting on that tempurature data from Rick. (if so, i'll give him a nudge) On our discussion forum the general consensus is that heat is having a detrimental affect on the stator insulation, and that possably lowering the designed output to the minimum needed +15% may be helpfull, but you are the expert on stator winding & output...

as far as the oil temp problem goes, I am working on modifying the bikes oil filter housing & case to adapt an oil cooler. I have the basic design worked out, and have a machine shop working on a part for it right now. I have some more testing to do and have concerns about pressure drop caused by the cooler, but should have a prototype ready to test in a couple of weeks. depending on test results (mostly presure drop after the cooler & at the cam journals) I may or may not procede with this project. If all goes well, i'll make them available to our members in kit form.

One other tidbit you may find relevent: we have noticed that when we change out a burned stator, more often than not they are burned at the upper most point of the stator, as mounted. I cannot say this is true of all of them, sometimes those changing the stator don't think to look...

--Looking forward to your reply, that your still interested in helping us solve this problem.

Thanks, --Lucky

If its nice this weekend I'll ride and see what I get.

LOL !
 see what happens when you make an assumption ? ?:D
.
.
.
I'll fix that one...

 ?Ritzo is starting to sound like an army recruiter.
 I called two companies today, one says they can build a stator to handle anything vision can ask for ,including extreme heat condition, they are to return my call in the next week with turn around time and price.
 ? ?the second company says they will test the r/r unit they are selling , they also are interested in seeing if a series regulator will work for a vision. (compu-fire technologies )
 ? ? i sent factory specs ,part numbers and pre ride/post ride temp data to them this afternoon. This was water,oil,side case and surface temp of regulator ,both before and after the ride (25 miles, heavy traffic ,67 degree f day, no clouds ).
those were the only numbers they asked for ,,, so maybe we can get the whole builders world looking at vision again.

   that's  good to here you talked to comu-fire and sent him the info.   also I noticed crane cams of all people, sell a simular system..   Imagine trying to ride your bike wide open, only riding the brakes to control your speed.... any takers??     If you were selling brake pads you might be for it.

Quote?
 ? ? i sent factory specs ,part numbers and pre ride/post ride temp data to them this afternoon. This was water,oil,side case and surface temp of regulator ,both before and after the ride (25 miles, heavy traffic ,67 degree f day, no clouds ).

well, don't keep us in the dark, what were your temp readings ?

-Ron

outside temp 68 f
before ride temps:
cooling sys ?65 ?(bike was in shaded area )
oil ?65
stator side cover ?65 at top curve
 
 ? 25 mile ride, heavy traffic, stop and go (fan cycled only twice )
 end of ride
 cool sys 195 when fan finished cycle
 oil 230 f  +/- a degree or two (had to drain it to get temp )
 stator cover at top curve 200 f , burning side of boot sole
 lowest point of case,,, 202 f

 ? i dont know if my twisting the right side grip when i cleared traffic caused the high oil temp or not,,, but that seems sort of high.
 ? ?i kept foot clear of side case on way home,, i think it was cooled a bit by air flow,,,
 ? my temps may be sort of high on oil and case ,, my stator going out anyway,, gets really goofy ,,, charges fine ,, then it just stops charging ,
 switched regulators over to my spare,,, still doing it , so will need one soon.
 ? ricks motorsports has high temp wire and epoxy in the stators they wind for racing,, am going to order mine from them,, get the race winding and sealing done. ?cant be without my only ride to work --- that would be an all day walk.
 i did get answer from compu fire about getting a series regulator,,, they cant rec. it for now,, there isnt enough test data nd no on site bike to test it out on,, so they do not rec we try that on our system.

230 oil temp doesn't sound too high to me.  If it was 300+, yes.  230, no.  The tests' ambient air temp of 67 is pretty cool.  Because of that, I don't think that these #s should be taken as definitive real world data.  But, they are at least a good starting point.  I would really like to see a similar test done with an ambient of 90+.  Cheers.

first of all, let me say that I am jealous, it's 32 degrees outside this morning so I won't be riding today ;(
as far as temps go, those are pretty much what I thought they would be.  

so what we can assume at this point is that if the stator is designed to sit in a 250-300 degree environment pretty much all of it's life then the engine temp is only a minor factor in the equation.

it's too bad there isn't a way to modify our existing regulator or wiring setup to remove the load instead of shorting to ground which I'm convinced is a major flaw with this design.
I realize that this is just a simplistic idea but, it's kind of like you would need 2 regulators, one to open\close the power side and one to open\close the ground side...  I wonder if you could reverse wire a 2nd regulator to perform this kind of function, or build a circut to do so.

-Ron

can someone who knows more about this than I do verify this chart ?

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

according to what I read here, the wire thats used to wrap the stator isn't even rated to carry 22 amps
is that correct ? ?am I missing something here ?
they go on to say that you should calculate other factors into the equation, given all that, if the amperage exceeds about 15 with the existing setup, then you have meltdown, insulation breakdown and then shorting. sounds like typical Vision problems.

if this is true, then the smallest wire size for this application should not be less than 16 wire guage....

I'm no electrical engineer but it seems to me that in order for the thing to hold up long term, the wire needs to be heavier duty. I know that changing that will also change the output.
I'd prefer to try and keep as close to or possibly exceed 22 amps if possible so that if I want to add an accessory or 2 I wouldn't exceed the capacity.

I'm probably wrong about this, thinking about it some more.
voltage comes out of the stator on 3 wires so it should be distributed evenly across all 3 I would think.

comments ?

-Ron

Hey Ron!!!

 ? ?i went to your link, read it myself, ,, I really think you may have found at the least a good part of the problem. i didnt think of checking load capacity of the windings,,,, .
 ? ?i ran a short mountain ride this morning,, not far ,as i dont trust my charging system, close to 40 miles up and back, carried my spare battery in the hard bag and cut all power to fairing extras, just in case.
 ? ?my temps werent much different than the first set. outside air was close to 65 f . , guess we need some summer heat to get good set of high temps numbers too. but i think you are on to something with the wire size ?and capacity .
    The only requirement for voltage output is set by number of windings , keeping output around 20- 22  is just a matter of math and space on the poles. i sent letter to my bud at the race shop, added the link,, will see if it helps them any, may just get something going now. Electrex seems to be happy with doing the same thing  yamaha did, if nothing else, will just buy stock wound unit from these guys,, 30.00 cheaper than electrex ,,, lol

actually, I think those temps reflect the majority of my riding.
when it hits the mid 80's or so I tend not to ride the bike as much because its too hot. I think you're going to find that on a hotter day the engine temps are pretty much the same with the oil being maybe another 10-20 degrees hotter. even on a hot day, doubtful that the oil would ever get over 250. we're only talking 20 or 30 degrees ambient difference. a big deal for humans but not such a big change for a machine. The cooling system should keep it where it belongs unless there is a problem with it. ?
Lastly, if your oil temperature is getting over 300, you've got more serious problems than the stator to worry about.


someone may have already posted this but, does anyone know how to calculate the number of windings for a specific amperage ?

-Ron

dont know the exact number of windings for any other awg wire, but for the 18 ga it is 11 ft ,2 inches per pole . that is what we unwound fom my junk stator. guy at race shop has all the new temp figures,oem specs and that wire chart you found. he is going to crunch the numbers, figure the new wrap requirement , and hopefully get us 14.5 volts at 22-24 amps,using the stock regulator .
  his first estimate was 10 ft 7 inches per pole,using 16 awg,
but the numbers needed to be run . a lot to consider,: resistance of wire, pulse freq,all sort of engineering stuff that i dont quite grasp. his biggest concern was space available for the stator, we only have "x" amount of space to work with on an installed stator, too thick and we bind on flywheel or case . he already dealt with the poles being source of short, rounded each pole ,smoothed it out a bit, redid the base with
mil-spec epoxy, so poles wont be causing short by rubbing wire .  the oem stator was sharp cornered,, not a good thing .
  we should have somehing as the week goes on,, will post anything he figures out,, or if they will do the work, price for updating it all.

Some buddies of mine that are into performance cars, Vettes, Camaros and other big v8s.  Drill a couple holes in their thermostats, it lowers the temps about 15 to 20 degrees?  Ive been thinking of doing this to my bike.

ok,, here is the str8 poop from an expert on stator windings:
  the wire in the vision stator is too small to handle the job.
 dr. mark lund, phd ,powerstream technologies.

   long letters back and forth came down to one quick point , 18 ga can not support 20 amp charge rate ,esp under constant use for very long. to reduce resistance and overall temperature of the stator , we need a min of 15 awg wire.

 many thanks to our web originator for that link last night,, quick letter to the man there resolved 75 percent of out problem, now they are tweaking the correct number of turns per post  with 15 awg wire to give us 14.25 v ,20 amps @ 3000 rpm . this will charge battery, run almost anything we could bolt on and still not run hot .  will post again when have correct number of turns per post,, then we can call my lil speed shop for prices .

Good and facinating news!  One question: Will our stator poles physically accept the length of wire nessessary to perform as specified?

if the poles are too big would it be possable to grind them down since they're laminated metal sheets?

I think it is not good if we change the stator wire from awg 18 to 15 because of 2 reasons.

The first reason is that we are calculating with a wrong current because the vision uses a 3 phase system, so the current thru one stator wire is not 20 Amps but more 18 Amps (tested in simulation program) and also the output of the stator is an AC voltage so there is not a constant current of 18 AMPS but an alternating current. This means that the averarage will be lower. Only the output of the rectifier gives about 20 amps DC current

The second reason is if you still use the standard Shunting regulator you will possibly destroy the R/R because the stator is a part of the voltage regulation system. You are improving the performance of the stator by lowering its internal resistance by winding thicker wire, This causes the stator to deliver a higher voltage ( lower voltage drop) and current at output so the regulator has to shunt more current to regulate the voltage, also more current flows thru the rectifiers (generating more heat),and the R/R will get overheated more than it already is, possibly braking down and shorting the stator. Eventually winding thicker wire will be generating the same amount off heat internally in the stator as the original stator. I can not imagine that the designers of the charging system wounded their coils with to smal wire, Because a litle thicker wire will not cost much more, and every 'wire' compagny gives a chart with maximum currents for their type of wire. If this symply is the solution why does yamaha or electrex dont wind thicker wires?

If the amount of windings is lowered, than the output voltage can be lowered. But then there is possibly not enough power at idling and the internal resistance will drop more and the regulator will stil shunt a higher current due the lower internal resistance of the stator.

This wil only work wel if also the R/R is modified or changed in an series regulator reducing the amount of current overheating the stator.

Again i dont want to be negative, but i stil think using series regulation will solve our problems. And with improving the stator i am afraid we are moving the problem to anoter part of the charging system.

well,,
    if we cant get a fix soon, going to be a lot of the same old stuff going in ,over and over.
 i , for one, cant afford to keep replacing stators every 5000 miles.
  I like my vision, she is the only one in my area, and most people here have never seen one at ,let alone be left behind by a 550.
  but i have to be realistic.,the constant battle to keep the eletrics alive are just turning into a major pain.
   if we cant get a better part, or part design, i need to trade this in soon ,v-star 650 classic would look just as good in my parking place at work.  But i just wont have as many people asking what it is .

well, not being an electrical engineer, I can agree with you on part of this, other parts I'm not so sure.
yes I know we are dealing with AC and I do know how it functions. the point being that while the stator is under load the dwell time over the rating is still over the rating.
I don't know what the actual wire gauge is, 18 or 19.
the max amperage rating according to the wire chart is only around 15 amps.

I can't say that I would use 15 gauge wire in this application. I agree that it would change the voltage output unless you were able to achieve the same resistance with the thicker wire.

Now if you were to take a smaller step and go to 17 awg, you've done a couple of things. you've increased the load rating for the wire and given it more cushion, where at the top of the wave it is still only at or below the max amp rating.
the other thing is that given the difference between 17 an 18 awg the resistance is only .3 per 1000 ft. ?I'd say that translates to a negligible difference at 100 ft.

The regulator specs state that the output is 14.5 +- .5
so assuming the same or fewer number of windings with the heavier wire it should be fine.

when these bikes were built, cost was a definite factor,
they spent much of the money on engine r&d and the budget was blown for anything else after that. If you know the history of this bike, they were still trying to sell the 82's in 1986 after dropping the price several times.

Yamaha as well as other manufacturers still uses this setup on some of their new bikes, this makes me think the overall design is ok, just that they cut costs on the implemetation.

I wonder if you could mount an R1 flywheel on a vision...

As far as electrex goes, this same stator is used on other bikes and they also have their share of stator failures. Just because they were designed a certain way doesn't mean it is right. I don't know what electrex uses for wire to wrap these but I do know they get 160 bucks and they sell plenty of them... ?kill the cash cow? ?I think not.

lastly, you pointed out that if we fix the stator and transfer the problem to the rest of the system or the reg\rec that it's an issue. ?au contraire. I'd much rather carry around a spare regulator and change that every 2 years than to have to change the stator ever again. ?we're talking 10 minutes by the side of the road versus a big pita job....

what would be nice is if we could get the folks from Electrex or Ricks or someone else who builds these to participate here on the forum.

-Ron

Ok You are thrue about that a R/R is easyer to replace than a stator. But a fialing R/R (chorting) can cause the stator to fail almost instantly (10 Seconds?) are and if the short current is high enoug also melting your cable harness or at least the wires from stator to R/R

Using thicker wire with the same resistance does not work, because it is the resistance of the wire that is heating up the wire and together with the type of insulation, number of windings and surrounding temperature that is limiting the maximum amount of current (before the wire smokes up).
It is clear that the maximum current is a bit over the edge, but not much because some bikes ride 20000 KM without the need of changing the stator. If it was really to small it would smoke up sooner. probably the first highway ride.
If it smokes up sooner, than that is because of other factors, like bad connexions R/R bad or not the same as it was new. this because most stories i have read, it is clear that the first stator lives much longer than the second, the third, the fourth ..............

I did not find a table about resistances of the different AWG sizes but if the resistance would change from 0,32 ohm to 0,22 ohm, than the maximum current used when regulator is regulating:

14,5v/0,32 = 45 Amp peak
14,5v/0,22 = 66 amp peak

Ok both actual values will be lower because internal resistances and voltgae drop of the R/R, but a short circuit wil generate these amps and if you calculate the watts heating up the inside of the stator!

I also would like the folks of electrex and compagnies like that to paticipate in the forums, but that would be something for them like throwing in their own windows i suppose. They are only selling stators and R/R to earn their money in the first place (like every healty compagny does). Helping us comes at second place. And if they tell us how, we would make it ourselves without profit, because we would like to help our other fellow vision drivers. But i also would appreciate a little help from the pro,s.

You are also right i think about yamaha did not design this principle for the charging system good because of lack of money, but i think yamaha is responsible for this problem and also they would notice a lot stators are failing after a couple of KM's. Wy did they not improve the design or came with a solution at that time. I think that is because off it is a problem with more factors and it would cost to much to recall all visions and completely update charging system. Repairing the stumble would give them more buyers i think because the stumble is noticed during a test ride and a possible failing stator not.

Not being in any way electrically inclined, even to a dummy like me it is apparent that for whatever reason the stator/ R/R design in the XZ was bad and seems to be a major issue in ownership. Wouldn't it be better to put less effort from all concerned into trying to fix the current set up and simply look for a alternative from another jap bike without these problems?

There probably lots of issues with trying to do this but wouldn't the design of a " mechanical conversion kit" to make a robust system from another jap model work on the XZ the way to go? I'm prob speaking through my orrifice here but
I've had loads of jap bikes and never suffered any electrical gremlins?

Regards

Glyn

Nothing like some lively discussion eh ? ;)

ok, we do know that if the reg\rec shorts it's going to fry the stator, this is already true and has already happened on some bikes.

20 000 kilometers = 12 427.42 miles
yes, many bikes go 12k without needing a stator, in the grand scheme of things, 12k is not a lot of miles.
part of the problem here is that the stator does not fail in 5 minutes or a week but 6 or 8,000 miles or 2 years from now.
I have 7 years on the one in my bike.

your resistance numbers are ok for a larger difference, when I talked about 17awg and 100 ft the difference is less than .03
not .1  ... that is really the point, the resistance is only lowered slightly, causing it to run cooler under load.
Would this make the regulator short out ?
I doubt it.  also, if the stator generates (in theory) 18-20 amps from each of the coils, then the rectifier would only convert what is produced by the stator and the regulator
only bleeds off what is not needed in the form of heat.

think about this for a minute. ok, your cruising along 60-70mph down the highway on a nice summer day, temps are in the mid 70's.  The engine is turning about 6000rpm. that means that every 1000 times per second, the 3 stator coils are generating a full ac sine wave up to and over the maximum capacity of the wire. sure it gets hot, eventually, not today or tomorrow the wire weakens because of the heating
the insulation eventually breaks down and the wire shorts to whatever is convenient.  now if you could successfully bleed that extra heat off somewhere, the wire and insulation would hold up longer. but. The stator is located in the engine, already preheated to 200 degrees by virtue of it's location.
The baseline is still 200 degrees no matter what you do with it, thermostat change, oil cooler etc.

The only way you are going to get the stator cooler is to get it out of the engine, what we're looking for is a way to improve the situation so that instead of lasting 12k miles, it lasts 24k or 48k.  if you could improve it so it holds up for 50k or 10 years then I think that would be acceptable. how many of us will be owning this bike in 10 years ?

Bike makers don't build bikes for people to own for 10 or 20 years, if they did, they'd go out of business.
as a current vision owner, you want to know that if you fix something, you hopefully won't ever have to mess with it again for the amount of time you own your bike.

Yamaha is not in the business of fixing 20 year old bikes so there won't be anything coming from them. They probably have no idea we exist and could probably care even less.
when you're making thousands of products a year, what is a couple hundred people.  

what we need is a "good enough" solution so that once you do the fix, you don't have to worry about it for another 10 years or 50k miles.

ymmv

-Ron

To bad there is not some way we can put the stator external to the engine....for a way overly simplified example...remember as kids the little generator on our bicycles that rolled along the edge of the tire to power that lame little light.   ;)

But it seems to me, that the obvious solution would be to find wire that with the existing diameter and resistance, but with improved insulation and heat handling capabilities.  Also to protect the stator from damage from a failed regulator, couldn't we but a fusable link or fuse in each stator line prior to the R/R to prevent a failure in either the stator or the R/R from cascading to the other component?

I know a man who has got external stator on hios V, but he doesn't want to send me pictures... This is possible in fact..

I'm sure there are ways you could put the stator external but I have no interest in that. if you really wanted to you could do it for probably under 200 bucks. get a junkyard alternator,
drill a hole in the left side cover, run a pulley shaft out, make a bracket and hang an alternator onto it.  there are people that retrofit goldwings with this exact mod.

I still think we can solve this with some of the changes we've been talking about.  the idea of retrofitting with another stator, flywheel, reg\rec is also possible and may not be that bad.  certain year viragos have the stator problem while others do not have them as much.  we need more data.

The fusible link(s) in the stator harness, that may be a good
idea for protecting the components from each other.
if one goes, it doesn't take the other one with it.
I kind of like that one.  any comments ?

-Ron

Lord knows my knowledge of electronics is limited, but if the crux of the problem is heat, could the wires exiting the sidecover be run through a heatsink of sorts, before they get to the R/R, without doing anything adverse, electrical-wise?

Mark

I also think that a fusible link is something that could be very effective. Also the newer technology  maxi fuse may be something to look into.  We have to do the math to figure the maximum current draw the R/R can take.  I think (if memory serves...) The capacity of fusible links is usually 30 amps or more.  Will that exceed what the R/R can take?  I believe you can get 20 AMP maxi fuse.

Well, I haven't answered any questions but will try to find out more.

Joe Vacc

Was at the WALMART last week and they sell a heavy duty inline fuse set-up rated to 30amps, I just about bought it to rig up into my stator wires but decided Id do some research first, its funny it was brought up!  

information from Ricks Stators:

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Ron Ghetti <computerhelp@ghetti.net>
Date:  Wed, 17 Mar 2004 00:34:46 -0500


>>Hi,
>> I need to replace my stator,
>> and I was curious about the construction of the unit.
>> for example, what size and temperature rating wire
>>do you folks use to wrap them with,
>>Also, should I replace my reg-rec at the same time.
>>thanks
>>-Ron Ghetti
>>
>>

All of our epoxy is rated at 155 deg c and our magnet wire at 200 deg c. If you can test R/R do it. If you want us to check it we will do it no charge if you purchase an item and if you don't purchase anything the cost is $10.00.

--
Ken Silva
General Manager
Rick's Motorsport

----

note, I sent a similar message to Electrex without a reply as of yet.

-Ron

Ok, the Rick's stator insulation is good to 311 deg. F and the wire is good to 396 deg F. This should be good enough for our use. Now if we can get a suitable R/R. I would like to see the Honda CX500 unit that somebody says is 'meatier' than ours.

I know i've read on here that there have been failures with RICKS Stators too...

230 degrees from drained oil may not be the same as oil tempuratures taken from the oil as it's being ridden hot on a hot day, so suspect those readings to be on the low side....  When Rick G gets tepurature data, it'll be from a running engine.

Lastly, I think it's time to remind everyone that all the discussion of failed stators has made it seem that this flaw in the design will be the doom of our bikes.  Remember that there are several people here who have gotten years & years from their stators, with out replacement.  

They are always the ones who reccomend to the newbies that the clean ALL the electrical connectors on the bike, Keep the battery properly tendered when not used for extended periods, keep them filled to the proper level, etc, etc, etc...

Remember that a electrical system with high resistance, and/or a neglected battery will tax the charging system further, and a heavy duty charging system will only mask problems.

Make electrical care part of your maintenace ritual

well actually I'm looking into the Honda v45 setup.
I'm told that they hold up fairly well even after cooking the connectors A la the vision

http://v65.freeshell.org/sabmag/reg_conn.html

The stator is a bit wider and puts out more amperage.
the regulator is a bit bigger also.
I don't know if there is enough clearance to run this setup
but I'm shopping these items out on ebay.
The electrex chart has it listed as 2mm thinner but I've seen dimensions elsewhere that state it is 4mm wider than the vision.  I'm told it puts out 32 amps.  I can't imagine that the honda v45 being a water cooled v4 runs any cooler than the vision   It should be a fun experiment, sort of like a bolt-on upgrade, assuming I'm able to get the parts cheap enough.

-Ron

Lucky is right on this, I think the problem tends to be more exaggerated because we have more Visions per capita on this forum than you'll find anywhere else.
Add to that the fact that these bikes are 20 years old, there is no doubt that problems are going to show up.

its true, I've got almost 16 years on 2 visions without ever having a stator problem, it may be that I'm just due or more likely this one's been abused at some point enough for it to quit.  while it will end up costing me a few bucks to fix, I do expect problems with my bike being as old as it is...

All of this talk is just like bench racing anyways, the beauty being that we've got a lot of talent and experience between all the guys that hang out here with different ideas to further the development of these cool bikes. I like the idea of focusing on the issue and digging for possible solutions.

so, I was talking to a guy with a brandy new Honda 950 and it seems he had fried the stator on his bike by replacing his headlights with those super bright H7's (don't quote me)
a radar detector and some extra lights.
anyway, after getting some more info and doing some research, it seems that his bike runs what I believe to be the same stator that the vision does. his add ons cost him pushing his bike a couple times and 400 bucks at the dealer.
Whats the moral of the story ?  don't overload your charging system would be a good start....

-Ron

I think that there is something we are overlooking.
Why does the first stator lives much longer than the all the next ones???
There really is another factor changing when the bik gets oldere we are completely forgetting and we have to find out what it is ore simply dont know it is causing it. I am talking about the thing that is causing the R/R to overheat.
The problem should be there someware in the electrical system of the bike......

As things age i can only think about a couple problems:
Flywheel magnets losing power( this would cause voltage to drop i think, so possible bad idea).
Bad connections, and if i loook to my connections some are almost turned into dust, so i am rebuilding the bad connectors and cleaning the other ones to.

As i was looking for the central ground point, i only found one grounding wire to chassis wich connects the complete system to chassis. The connexion was a solder eye under the left ignition coil mounting bold (from front cylinder), and it was rused a little bit.
I wonder what could happen if this connexion starts oxidising.
I think it would higher the voltage, and also the current maybee overloading the stator?

It should be somethoing like this because as i read some other bikes also use this charging system without frying the coils.
Maybee yamaha did not spared their money one the charging system, but on the complete cable harness.

I "think" based solely on what I see on my bike, the wiring diagram, and my knowledge of automotive electrical systems, that the rectifier/regulator shuts the voltage to ground at the point where the rectifier/regulator itself attaches to the bikes frame.  Of this I do know.  When a short circuit occurs (essentially what the regulator does in a controlled fashion) the most heat is generated closest to the short itself.  This would be why the R/R gets hot.  It could also account for why that notorious connector heats up and melts.(The incoming unneeded current is meeting too much resistance at the R/R end of the connector)  I am personally thinking that along with ensuring that the connector is making good contact, we should also be sure that the R/R is making the best ground possible to the bikes frame. Just my .02

Ok, 2 corrections:
1) the grounding points on the bike are the black wire under the left side coil mounting bolt, and the negative battery cable, and yes they both need to be clean.  I've also added a 3rd ground between the starter (not stator :) ) mounting bolt and frame.

2) the R/R ground (shunt to ground) is through the thick black wire that runs into the bikes wire harness (and to the coil mounting bolt) That is why BOTH connectors on the R/R need to be eliminated, you'll often find that connector melted as well.  There is no continuty between the R/R case and the R/R ground. I had thought there was once, and used to reccomend adding an additional ground here too.

ok just for fun I did a poll on the sportriders of new england mailing list, I hang out there occasionally.

I got back about 21 or so reply's many of them stating that they have had some problems depending on the bike and how old it is. Many of them ride new bikes and so are less likely to have an issue.  and here is a couple of them.

<<
I had to replace it on my 1982 Suzuki GS750EZ.


Steve T.
>>

 

<<
The only charging problem VFR's had was the regulator/rectifier.
NOT the stator.  My '86 VFr had this prob around 25K miles,
but my '95 went 33k with no elec problems. Early '80s vintage bikes
did have their share of problems but not anything
really since the mid 90's that I've ever heard of.
Happy Friday
Jon
>>

<<
Every VFR has had rectifier problems. The current model is plagued with
them. Motorcyclists testing VFR was taken away by Honda and shipped back to
Japan to be dissassembled. Mptorcyclist never got the bike back , or heard
anything else about it. The bike's electrical system failed on Boehm several
times in his few months riding it.


Ralph
'98 YZF600R
'95GPZ1100
'99 Atomic 9.18's

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>>


of course, this information doesn't prove anything, but can be helpful in searching for possible replacement parts.
of all the things we've looked at, one of the more likely things that contribute to early failure is the R\R. it just may be making the stator work a bit harder than it should, generating the extra heat.


-Ron

   Ron please write back about your two bikes with mileage on the bike, speeds your run your motor (like how much of the time do you spend at 7,000 rpm and above)  Would you consider yourself a slow style rider or do you ride more sport.                                                                                    

I have just returned a stator to Electrex,   I had them send me a new one the other day and thought there was a huge difference in the  look of the quality....( I had one of there sators already in my bike ,and it had just failed at about 10,000 miles)    The new stators they are don't look anthing like the picture on there website,the last one looked fantastic and I had high hopes of It lasting awhile..   the most recent one was barely coated and where the 3 leads leave the poles the wires where free to viberate ..... I told the guy on the phone I just had no confidence in placing that in my bike.   I asked why the obvious change in epoxy and he said they had problems with the others  failing....  

   I hate to miss my riding season,,, I am thinking of calling a salvage yard and seeing about a used stator

Reply to Walt -

Just measured up the CX regulator I have compared to the vision R/R.

The CX regulator is 80 *80 * 30 mm in dimension.
Code writing states; Shindengen Japan SH 232-12 0.1
There are three yellow wires, one green, one black and a thick red coming out from it.

The R/R on myvision is 60 * 80 * 25 mm  SH - S48-12  2.6
can't see a makers name.

If you do the numbers that equates to a 60% increase in cooling area over the std Vision. Although I'm sure it doesn't work like that "electrically".

Just a thought also -can't we plumb in a heat sink as used on the 60-70's british bikes somewhere in the system? Now they had nice big cooling fins.

Regards

Glyn ;)  

Ok, i found that the R/R is not shunting to ground, But it is shunting to the stator directely before rectifiying the voltage.
This you can see in the original workshop manual in the electronic schematics/wiring diagram. There you see the regulating part is regulating before it is rectified. I think this is done to prevent the Rectifier from overheating since the shunted current is not passing the rectifier, and also preventing high shunting current thru the whole system.

I still think that replacing the R/R with another one from another bike, because thiat can overload the stator, because the other bigger R/R is made for a larger stator, and possibly creating a larger shunting current than the original one.

I also agree with lucky about the R/R not connected to the chassis itself since it is bolted to the PLASTIC batterie-box on the left side of the bike.

Aslo a strange comment from electrex as told by supervision. It looks to me they aslo have not any idea why the stators fale. Maybe they are thinking if they remove the epoxy, the stator is better cooled.
.

With my '83 having 20k+ on it, no electrical problems. My '82 with 7k, the R/R just died. I have a charge light(L.E.D.) on both bikes to indicate I have 14+ volts. One day, the '82 the LED was not glowing when the engine was over 2000rpm(as it should). Got home to find only 12.9volts. The stator tested fine. Got another R/R and with a nicely made bracket, relocated it by the left pass. peg. But not so it can be easily kicked. And relocated the R/R on my '83 also. When an R/R fails it is likely the baking it is taking being behind the engine. Any location is better than the original for the R/R. Age, heat and vibes kill electrics. I say, "Eliminate as many as you can"...

Could I just confirm that at the moment - given all the mails it would be best practice to use the original R/R, ground it to the frame via the original mounting holes and place it in a cooler position, prob just anbove the left rear pag?  I was going to use the CX R/R but it would seem that may not be a good idea after all?

Regards

Glyn ???

JasonM; your comment regarding vibration is quite correct.  With that thought in mind, anyone considering mounting their RR on either passenger foot peg bolt should check out the vibration of that placement before devising their mounting system.  V foot pegs are terrible vibration points.  Just ask your long term passengers. Any RR using the foot pegs for mounting should be very well insulated for vibration.  Cheers.

for supervision:
milage on both bikes? not sure exactly on the first one but I believe it was high 30's. This bike was raced before I bought it, safety wired for the racetrack,  the only major things I did to it which is really just maint. was tires, brakes and 2 batteries over the time I had it.

The bike I have now has about 28k, it's on it's 2nd stator I think, I know the R/R was new when I bought it and the flywheel was cracked, the conversation with the guy went something like,
" I've replaced everything, the starter is fried, I don't want it anymore"
I picked it up for 500 and rented a truck to bring it home.
I don't ride as much as I'd like to or used to for that matter
I don't generally get the revs up over 9 grand but have cruised all day at 7500-8000.  Something I wouldn't mind is a euro gear set but I refuse to spend 200 bucks for one.



ofstone may be on to something here, I've read where some manufacturers do shunt one of the stator phases to ground, instead of the rectified voltage.  without an accurate diagram or a disected r/r  It's difficult to prove or disprove this theory.  

anyone ?

-Ron

The stator in my first bike was almost new , when I bought the bike . It lasted 19000 miles over a 4 year period (that I had the bike)   not rally so bad.
I replaced a stator, at work , in a GS1100 suzuki  and not long ago a '96  HD bagger, so none  are immune !

The wire I bought to rewind a stator with ,was rated  at 390 deg F.  and the epoxy at 650 deg F. Some day I'll try it , when I have time.
I'm using a KZ1100 R/R  rubber mounted , so far so good.

   Ron   I have an old 305 honda superhawk, in the repair book (clymer) it mentions the method of voltage control is at the headlight switch (top of headlight,plastic knob), where the control how many of the stator leads go the the rectifier.. I made the mistake of riding the bike with a burned out headlight and the switch in the on position,,, it didn't take long at all to overheat and smoke the rectifier.  I had many years of no trouble at all out of that system before that..   The stator is out of motor ,not in the oil..     I'm still trying to figure out why harleys use only 2 leads out of the stator..  Rick do you still have that old stator?  is it 2 wire?  Ron one more thought... you said they might ground stator output before rectifying it.. I have been thinking about just connecting 2 of the leads,,you know like if you just touch a source of current to another source of current you only get a single source of curent..   breaks over got to get back to pulling up tack strip...uncovering our hardwood...

The reason Harley only has 2 wires is because it is a single phase (how odd is that) as opposed to a 3 phase system like most others. one thing to remember about Harleys is that they still use technology from about the 1930's. Hardly something you'd want on a modern motorcycle. ;)

well if I remember correctly, the article specifically mentioned suzukis doing that on some models. Yamaha may have followed suit on the vision, I don't know.
personally, I don't think I'd mess with trying to change the wiring, I'd just sub a different R\R from a different bike along with relocating it.  The function of the R\R is to convert ac to dc and regulate it to about 14v.  I also don't think it cares if the stator is from a Yamaha or kawasaki or a honda. most of these are made by the same company with the main difference being how much load it can handle from what I can tell. so putting a heavier duty unit in (in theory) should make it hold up better.
So following that line of thinking, a R\R from a goldwing, V45 Honda,  Shadow 1000, Yamaha Venture, Virago, VMax or similar should do the job.

ymmv
-Ron

  I agree, that's  (as of lately) what i've been concluding from all this , a heavier R/R  mounted in coolspot....   This is funny  I happened to click on the archive form and there is a post from guzzi John  (first post called stator)   He says he's had enough of these vision's going to get an aprillia falco... check it out the falco uses a G 7 stator, according to electrix..  

QuoteReply to Walt -

Just measured up the CX regulator I have compared to the vision R/R.

The CX regulator is 80 *80 * 30 mm in dimension.
Code writing states; Shindengen Japan SH 232-12 0.1
There are three yellow wires, one green, one black and a thick red coming out from it.

The R/R on myvision is 60 * 80 * 25 mm ?SH - S48-12 ?2.6
can't see a makers name.

If you do the numbers that equates to a 60% increase in cooling area over the std Vision. Although I'm sure it doesn't work like that "electrically".

Just a thought also -can't we plumb in a heat sink as used on the 60-70's british bikes somewhere in the system? Now they had nice big cooling fins.

Regards

Glyn ;) ?

Glyn,
 The diminsions you gave for the CX R/R are a close enough match for the stock Vision R/R that I think they might be the same. I don't think the R/R on your Vision is the stocker.

QuoteThe reason Harley only has 2 wires is because it is a single phase (how odd is that) as opposed to a 3 phase system like most others. one thing to remember about Harleys is that they still use technology from about the 1930's. Hardly something you'd want on a modern motorcycle. ;)

well if I remember correctly, the article specifically mentioned suzukis doing that on some models. Yamaha may have followed suit on the vision, I don't know.
personally, I don't think I'd mess with trying to change the wiring, I'd just sub a different R\R from a different bike along with relocating it. ?The function of the R\R is to convert ac to dc and regulate it to about 14v. ?I also don't think it cares if the stator is from a Yamaha or kawasaki or a honda. most of these are made by the same company with the main difference being how much load it can handle from what I can tell. so putting a heavier duty unit in (in theory) should make it hold up better.
So following that line of thinking, a R\R from a goldwing, V45 Honda, ?Shadow 1000, Yamaha Venture, Virago, VMax or similar should do the job.

ymmv
-Ron

Just for grins, some time ago I saw a Venture R/R on Ebay and asked the seller some questions about it. It was rectangular and about 80mmX140mmX30mm which sounded good but it had 2 or 3 more wires on it than ours which was not. What is the size of the Kawasaki R/R that Rick G. is using? Also, I would not recommend putting a higher output stator in as it would be more work for the R/R.

Walt, I agree about not putting a higher output stator, just a heavier R/R....  Here's a simpe trick , sand away some of the post height making less efficent output.

Vibration is not a worry if mounted above the left pass. peg. Since the whole thing is in solid epoxy from the factory. I have mine bolted to the bracket with nylon washers to allow heat expansion. But this may be a waste because it is never so hot that I cannot put my hands on it. That being said...I think it never gets hotter than 130. My bracket is 3/16" thick steel. SO it should not fatigue. Also my R/R is 80 x 90 x 28,  on both of my V's.

 found out a thing or two today ,, electrex isnt going to change our stator build,, they cant ,, they buy them in bulk from a outsourced rewinder.  that is why so many bikes are listed as using this stator ,, they are redrilled to mount generically ,, so a stator from them may have been in a honda ,or a steamroller ,, who knows

  i would rather buy from a company that is building what they sell.
  Ricks is now building the stator to higher temp tolerances, with better grade parts, all due to our calls, e-mail and letters.
   cost 140.00 new,,, not reman /rewound .
   overnight shipping from nh to sc  23.00
  price of riding before 6 pm on 24 march 2004 -- priceless.
(yes i was mad at it ,, lose two stators in less than 6 months  and see if you are happy)

Hey Guys...

     Just a note for anyone interested... I work in the next town over from where Rick's Motorsports Electronics is located.. It may help out having a face to face conversation with the people there... if anything, I can save myself some shipping charges ;D Who knows, they may want me to bring the old girl down there to do some tests...
     Had I known that they were the same company y'all were talking about, I would have made the inquiries myself. I'm going to stop by there tomorrow!

wow, Kia that does stink,  man I appreciate why you are so
unhappy about it. Now I'm really less than impressed with Electrex. I've had some fun shopping on ebay this week.
I picked up a roll of 200c magnet wire for 7 bucks, enough to rewind at least half a dozen stators. I also have a honda v45 stator coming that cost me 18 bucks. I'm still looking for at least one regulator to go with it.  
I gotta find that post from Bernie on what he was recommending for a R\R...

-Ron

  i think my real problem with the bike was in my own head,, the whole stator thing was just the thing that sent me off in wrong attitude,,
  i think the need for one of those two may have been my fault more than anything else, but as with everything else,, no way to tell after tossing it when it fried .
 anyway , i was really curious when another user said his electrex was wound and diped different from his first one ,,, thats why i started digging on the idea of finding out who really wound the stators as new parts, and who just bought from low bidder
  wont buy from electrex any more,, and rick's has looked into reasons the things were failing and has tried to build a better mousetrap based on input from users , not just oem design sheets .
    something like that gets my vote  and my money .

Guzzi john did buy an Aprilia , says its a giant Vision!

The reason i bought an Eletrex over ricks is the one year guarentee over Ricks six months.
 

I'll measure  my Kawi R/R  and report back.  

Ron I printed  Bernies , coments on the old forum  its listed  as "Charge sys. ck. for simpletons w/cures"  (bernie always had a way with words!)he said to use  late model KZ/ZX 750/ 1000/1100 as well as several hondas.

Like I said, I had  had high hopes when I saw my first electex, stuck that sucker in and 10,000  it  went to toast...  I'm looking for stator # 5  and it's hard not to be pissed.   I am going to go with another size R/R and a breezy location..  Hang in ther kia, these are rewarding to ride when you get around to it..  Electrex needs to put up new pictures of the current product..

well to hopefully get further information to analyze, I've devised a test bench that I'm going to try and build once we get into the warmer weather (currently 36 here on sunny cape cod....)
here is the diagram I've worked out, I pretty much have all of the pieces I need to do this,  If you guys can look over my diagram and see what I've missed or make some suggestions that would be good.
with what I have so far, the only question in my mind is what kind of rpms will I get out of the drive motor and\or will it be able to handle the load. the motor that I plan on using is an old dryer motor that I replaced a few years ago on my wifes dryer. it's funny because it turned out to be a bad switch and not the motor at all. I've held onto it for probably 5 or 6 years thinking that if the motor ever went, I'd be all set. heh heh.
looking at the label, it says it will do 1600 rpm, obviously I won't be able to 10k rpm and I'm going to need to use pulleys to get more rpm out of it but I don't know what the load is going to be like. I figure I can bolt all this stuff to a piece of plywood and some 2x4's to
get started....

here is the diagram

(http://www.ghetti.net/assets/images/bench01.jpg)


-Ron

Ron, This really looks like a good idea, only i think you will need several car lamps to adjust to several loads, and to ad some amp-meters between the stator wires and the output.
To save some ammeters(and alo because the high current), you can use a resistor as a current sensing element a resistance of 0.01 ohm would be fine. Is you measure the voltage over the resistor, then the voltage divided by 0.01 is the current thru the resistor. Use a resistor of 10 watt. The extra resistance is verry low and does not interfere with the test. Also keep in mind that you use a tru RMS voltmeter to measure the current because standard voltmeters are only calibrated for 50/60 Hertz AC, and the generator of the vision is producing another frequency.

For the power of the engine you use to turn the flywheel. It should have the same, or more power, than you are using out of the generator including the losses in heat. Because power is naver lost, only whasted.   What goes out, must go in.

So if you are using 300 Wats and dissipation is 200 wats than your moter should be able to generate at least 500 watts to let it turn around. And is you are using pulleys to get a higher rotation speed you need even more power.

I hope if it is posible to do this test soon, because than you can see what happens inside the system, and what is going to be overstressed. and maybee solve the problem or at least the thing that is causing the problem, but i asm sure that it will bee more than one factor causing the failures.

not trying to sound silly or flip... once you get it up & running, heat things up with a hair drier or heat gun to see what effect heat has on the test results. you might want to add the wifes meat thermometer into the mix.
--Lucky

Wholly sheet you guys. Talk about ROV R&D! Anyway, I got my steering head bearings in and fired R up this morning. Warmed it up and ran the carbon out of it (10,000 rpms!)

Anyway, last Ricks stator I put in I soldered the feedback wire to the output wire (brown and red) at the R/R connector. My voltmeter never goes over 14V now and actually goes to around 12V at high rpm's. Last electrex stator with the brown wire going up through the ignition switch and back, I had my voltmeter going up around 15V or more at high rpm's. All I can think of is a voltage drop in the brown wire may have caused an overcharging condition?? ???

Don't really like the sound of that. The voltage should not be going to 12V with the engine running, ever! Also, having the brown wire tied to the red will leave the possibility of discharging the battery over long periods of time. I think you should reconsider and reconnect your brown wire. Solder it to the original tie point and it should be fine. The reason it seems better now is that the original connection was probably dirty.

Went for a ride last night, about 50 miles. My voltage dropped a few times to around 11 volts, like the stator wasn't charging. Thought about turning around a few times, but the voltage came back up and eventually was fine when I got home. I just ohmed out the stator, and it isn't grounded or open. Of course now I have it rigged up differently than most.

I have left this situation rigged up and it doesn't drain my battery. It was all hooked up for 3 months and the battery did not discharge at all. I thought it may do that but it didn't. I would like to hook up my voltmeter directly up to my battery instead of the brown wire in the headlamp bucket, where it is now. I may try that instead.  :P

considering the way you have it set up, it might be that since your charging system was showing 14V, then it kept the battery charged.  noe that the battery is fully charged, the R/R did it's job and only kept it "topped" with 12V.  

Readings of 11V present 3 possabilities: bad connection in the volt meter circut, battery is unable to hold a charge any longer, or R/R is on it's way out.
--Lucky

Hmmm....
thats interesting, it's almost like you can watch th R\R do its shorting thing to regulate the voltage.  over compensation maybe ? I also wonder how warm the positive battery wire gets in a situation like this.

speaking of monitoring your voltage, I ran across this site
they have 2 or 3 different models from 25 to 35 bucks.

http://www.customdynamics.com/LED_battery_gauge.htm

-Ron

radio shack sells one very similar for about $6.  Harbor freight tools sells the same thing for $3.  you just have to "rig" it up because its made as a mobile tester.

The Radio Shack unit works good, haven't seen the one from Harbor Freight, but I wouldn't spend over the $6 that Radio Shack asks for theirs. $3 is even better, if it works.

   Boy, I'll tell you what this site is getting better all the time!!     Where else can you monitor charging problems from so many of us at once?   So today I scored a used original staor and R/R from a 500 shadow..  Soon I will be back running..   I am going to double check the harness for a  good ground,, and give it a go..   I've had many staor failures at allways about 10,000 mi. and I'm hoping  that maybe I can get the R/R located to a cool spot for better performance..  This is the first time i've used a different R/R.  Mine has always tested ok, but this time I want to run something different..            By the way Ron I like your thought's on setting up a test bench and also the earlier idea about using ac current for a cdi  ignition.  cdi would be a huge improvement...... can I interest you in some ditital fuel injection??  How"s bout ram air to the air box?   Well my wife and I are going to dinner to celibrate 23 yrs maraige, that makes a vision seem like small patatoes!!   O shit she just told me it's 24 yrs...  Maybe I've lost track of the # of stators too ??    I need a drink

Testing  the rectifier portion of the RR is easy , Testing the regulator would probably take  a scope and a signal generator.

I plan to put an ammeter in series with the ground wire from the R/R and actually measure the current being shunted to ground. Might prove interesting.

I wanted to bump this back up after a few tests and observations.
I picked up 3 stators on ebay,
a Honda V45 magna
an 81 Virago 750
a honda vt500 shadow.
after some testing and some measuring, I've found that the Virago is too wide by about a 1/4 and the outside diameter is about a 1/16 smaller so it's a no go.
The honda on the other hand arrived damaged unfortunately
because they shipped it sitting loose inside of the flywheel.
but, after measuring and doing a test fit with putty including checking thrust clearance, it's my observation that it is usable on the vision. it is only about 5/16 thicker with the same od. it puts out about 6 more amps according to the specs I've read.  the clearance to the flywheel is a bit over a 1/4, taking into consideration the crankshaft thrust clearance.
my opinion is that if your engine is in good shape, you can run this and get some extra amps for those lights and extra accessories.
Personally I believe this to be a valid upgrade along with a heavy duty R\R and of course the relocation program ;)
because the one I picked up on ebay is damaged I can't use it without getting it rewound.

The honda shadow is an exact replica of the visions and
is what is going in at the moment to get my bike back up and running along with a regulator for a Honda cb929rr that I also picked up on ebay. all of these items I grabbed for under 20 bucks in the name of research  ;D

-Ron

This maybe a silly newbe question, but I noticed the poor placement of the r/r and was wondering if anybody had ever tried an active cooling system.  Same idea as a computer heatsink.  It would not have to be anything fancy as watercooling but direct fresh air would do wonders.  A fan would draw no more than 1/2 amp and would be cheap to fabricate. I know most of the problem lies in the stator, and I have not had a chance to study the wiring thoughly, but I was just wondering if it had been tried.  It does seem less drastic than relocation.

welcome to the site.  many have relocated the r/r to the passenger foot pegs and heard its a great thing to do.  although I have not done it yet i will be soon while I'm awaiting my stator from electrex.  i was thinking of mounting it on the motor mount bolt just in front of the battery, havent heard of anyone doing this but this way i dont have to add wire.   there is someone that used a fan from a computer and placed it about 2 inches (if i recall correctly) from the r/r as a backup if the fan quit it would still be able to breath.  from what it sounds like each of these cool the r/r significantly, enough to keep your hand on it w/o burning it.

Ken

It was Walt_M that added the cpu cooling fan to his R/R.  I bought one to try but I got the wrong size - too big.  It is the same size as the R/R.  Need to go back to Radio Shack and get a smaller one.  Will wire it in near the fuse box to a keyed circuit.  I'd relocate it but I am trying to keep it looking like it did off the dealer's floor.

H2o

The fan I have is the same size(nearly) as the R/R. I(carefully) drilled the mounting holes for it in the corners of the heat sink. Used 2" long #8 screws to mount it. I have about 1/2" of clearance between the fan and the R/R.
I wired it to the taillight circuit so it is on when the key is on, also, I can hear it run when I get ready to ride.

Thanks Walt.  I'll look again to see if I can stuff it in there.  Glad I decided not to solder the R/R & stator this time.  Guess I'll make a couple more pigtail "T" connectors to make wiring it to taillight circuit easier.

so why not just wire the fan into the R/R output?

Thought about that originally - don't remember why I dismissed it - maybe I didn't.  Just hadn't thought about it between deciding it probably wouldn't fit and reading the posting yesterday.  The mind . . . it's a terrible thing.

You just had to make me look didn't you Lucky! Because it would not be switched or fused! And the wire to the taillight is right there.
Only thing I might change is that mine blows toward the R/R, I think I'll reverse the connection to pull air away from the R/R.

That makes sense, Walt.  Both the fused circuit and pulling air away from the R/R.  The fan moves over 30 cfm so it should help keep things cooler back there.

Looks like we're going to have a rainy afternoon so I think I'll go out and install it later today.  I'll take photos of the process so anyone interested can see how it's done if they're interested.  Let me know if you want the pics posted.

H2o

What I have not yet experienced is a good, wet ride with the R/R cooling fan. It is not waterproof, at least mine isn't so I don't know if it'll take a good hard rainstorm. I suspect that it might be ok as the area is somewhat protected and doesn't look like it gets wet a lot, but the fan might change that. Maybe I'll put a switch on it for just such an occasion.

My fan isn't waterproof either.  At least I live in a semi-arid climate.  Doesn't rain often, but when we get it, it often comes down in buckets.  One storm here in 1997 dumped 14 inches of rain in a 12 hour period.  Our normal annual moisture - rain + water content of snow - is just under 20 inches.  That was quite a storm!

Just finished drilling & tapping the R/R and test fitting the 2" #6 screws.  #8s seemed too wide to fit between the fins.  No real stress there so I think they'll be fine.  Used stainless hardware.  Going out w/ camera now and will try to put it together.  Hope there's room.  Tried a test fit before starting & fan interferes with relays even without spacing.  Let y'all know how it goes from here.

H2o

The R/R cooling fan is installed & running.  8)  Thank you, Walt for the idea and the additional info.  It really helped.  With the slight offset I used when mounting it to the R/R, it clears the relays OK.  Tapped into license plate light circuit.  Bullet connectors there were convenient and fan uses only .16A.  I have some photos of it - the parts, the assembled unit & after installed.  Can either post them or e-mail to those interested.

H2o

(http://www.aerostich.com/isroot/riderwearhouse/Images/4632.jpg)
I just received this unit from AeroStich http://www.aerostich.com
Its a digital VoltMeter with a Clock, Battery Condition LEDs and two (2) thermometers.  I plan on putting one in with the R/R, the other one is internal in the unit which will be mounted either inside the fairing or under ther idiot lights.  The thermometer also has a Black Ice Alert, but it is probably for the sensor that I plan on putting in with the R/R.  This little thing really has a lot to offer and all for $33.00 Shipped.

Here is AeroStich's description:
5-Function Digital Meter  
Info galore in a compact, digital format that could fit nicely in your bikes' cockpit. Two thermometers incorporating a ice/freeze alert, a voltage meter, a three-LED battery condition meter, and a combination clock/stopwatch that operates in either 12 or 24 hour formats tells you a lot about your surroundings, the time, and the condition of your charging system. A 'black ice' alert flashes when that hazardous road condition threatens. Temperature minimums and maximums can be stored in memory and cleared easily. Measures 5.5" x 1" x .75".

CAT. NO. 4632    $ 27.00    


I will keep you posted after I get it installed.  Just 3 wires to connect....

Chris
Callaway, VA

I've seen those someplace and was wondering where to get one.  Now I know.  Thanks, Chris!  Tried several internet searches to no avail.  Would be an excellent addition to any bike but to Visions in particular.

H2o

motorplow---- and h20----
 ?you guys are some kind of good when it comes to finding add on stuff,,,,, ?went and peeked at the aerostich web site,, spent two hours just window shopping,, they really have some sweet gear on line ,,,and great prices on a lot of it . now just have to sell kidney to buy all the stuff i saw !!!
 ? anyone that hasn't been to that site, take note,, if it is priced really high,, read it again,,, then think,,, re: holograhic vehicle projector set for motorcycles,,, lmao
   i did find  a  FEW things there i am going to buy this year, close to 20 items ,, about 300.00 worth of gear,,, mostly road trip items,,, lighten my current load .

Y'all,
AreoStich also offers thier jam packed catalog for free,  just click on the link in thier site and it will show up in your Snail Mail Box.

Enjoy,
Chris

Radio Shack has a similar product:


http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F010%5F005%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=63%2D1039#


It's about half the price, but would need to be waterproofed for use on a bike, and has a different display and controls. I found it when searching for a thermometer for the bike. I have no direct experience with it.

Greg

H2o is right about the fan mounting screws, I used #6s too. The #8s I bought are still on my workbench.
Interesting looking combo meters. If I get much more stuff stuck on the dash, I won't have time to watch where I'm going, lol.

According to the manual of the "Radio shack Car Thermometer with Voltmeter" it can only show voltage up to 13V. I'm not sure it's usefull on our bikes.
http://www.radioshack.com/images/ProductCatalog/Manuals/OME63-1039.pdf

You may be reading the Radio Shack literature wrong, Per. ?I just bought one and installed it. ?14.5 - 14.7 @ idle on the voltmeter section. ?There is a small battery icon deal on it that shows max @ 13 V but that is just for battery condition. ?It does a fine job of monitoring the charging system.

It also has two temp sensors. ?Stuck one down behind my R/R - between the battery box & R/R. Just went around the block and temp @ R/R went from 120+ @ idle in the garage down to 105 when moving at up to 25MPH. ?The other one is built in to the LCD unit. ?With that under the plexiglass, I don't expect it to be too accurate. ?The DVM & clock are great, though and @ $15 + tax, is less than the dedicated voltmeters I was looking at.

Thanks for the heads up, Greg!

ooo another toy to get for the Vision.  well since shes torn apart right not anyways I should pick one up and get it hooked up to test the new stator and r/r.  did you put an inline swith w/it for on and off? it doesn't look like theres an on off on it.

Ken

I probed around in the circuits inside the headlight shell. ?The only one I could find that showed an accurate reading of the charging system was the one with the inline fuse. ?Most circuits were lower volts and didn't seem to change much with RPM. ?Thinking headlight relay might also stabilize voltage somewhat?

The circuit is not controlled by the ignition key but you can unplug the power lead @ the unit. ?I'll try to remember to keep it unhooked generally and only plug it in when I want to see how things are charging. ?May install a small inline switch but I generally park it with the bettery tender plugged in while @ home (about 99% of the time) so battery drain shouldn't be a problem unless I'm spending the night elsewhere & forget to pack the tender.

Two AAA batteries run the clock & temp sensors. ?The unit has a backlight. ?It is on when the power lead is connected. ?When disconnected, there is a large button that turns the light on for a few seconds. ?I can use the mode buttons with my riding gloves on too. ?Pretty cool little unit!

another reference article on the subject.
interesting point about Honda regulators, owner recommends
using a Yamaha !

http://www.vlc.com.au/~justin/about/bikes/honda/reg_replace.html

one other thing, I've got 3 regulators here in front of me, a cx500 honda, my original one that came on my bike when I bought it and a Honda cbr929.
from left to right the cx500 is easily lighter duty than either of the other 2. smaller in size and lighter guage wire. The 929 is the largest, the guage of the wire is much heavier than either of the others.  Where the cx500 looks much lighter duty than the stocker, I don't think I could recommend using it as a substitute for the stock unit.
after reading this article, I'd say that an R1 is the reglator replacement of choice.  ymmv

-Ron