Riders Of Vision

Ok, some bikes eat stators, mine eats battery's.  I have replaced my battery every spring for the last 5 years.
Heres whats going on:
Been on the trickle charger (battery tender jr.) for the last few months.
Electrolyte levels are between the lines.
Battery is a Walmart battery and is less than one year old

Voltmeter on the bike reads "low"  actual volt meter reads 7.4 volts.
Hooked it up to the craftsman battery charger and it puts out 13 or so volts but reads zero amps.
Trickle charger says "charged".  Off the charger I get 7 volts.
I checked my charger wiring and even measured the voltage on the charger and its fine.

What gives?  I guess this time I'll buy one of the expensive Gell battery's.

Damn, and its a beautiful 70 degrees out.  Supposed to be the same tomorrow.

David

off hand I'd say you got a bad egg, but five in a row seems pretty suspicious.....

first, I would change brands... mikes XS has AGM batteries for a decent price, a YUSA makes some good sealed units, as does interstate..

secondly, follow the "start up" instructions for a new battery to the letter.... if the manufacturer says charge for 12 hours at 1.5 volts, then do that... don't charge at 2 volts for 12 hours  :(

thirdly, do the electrolex tests to make sure your entire charging system and separate componets are operating correctly... I confess at not being very educated as far as electronics go, so ask the expert or phone a friend..

fourthly, if that's even word, I would monitor your battery throughout the riding season..... is there a noticeable drop in the batteries capability to hold a charge? usually, they will rest for a day or three at 12.5-12.6 volts...

fifth?, stop constantly using a battery tender junior.... just take the battery out and place it in a cool place during the off season. charge it once a month with the junior just to keep it honest..... that's just my experience with battery storage... take it FWIW.

oh yeah, if all else fails.... buy a new stater soleniod... everyone says its just a relay / on off switch to regulate the voltage to the starter, but I had an evil one that made my bike run like shit and maybe thats where your gremlin hides

I don't know if it's possable with ours, but years  ago, the electronic voltage regulators in cars could fail in such a way that they were allways 'on' even when the car was off. they would draw juice from the battery, even just sitting. very similar to a glovebox or trunk light staying on all the time.

how do you tell?  the test is simple:
unhook the negative wire from the battery, hook a TEST LIGHT, not a dvom, between the negitive post & the negitive wire. if something is 'on' (door open, etc) the light would glow.

then you'd start pulling fuses till the light went out. that would tell you what curcit was at fault, then you narrow it down from there.  Fords were notorus for shorted glove box light switches...

try this on the bike, if the light glows, then start pulling fuses. if you pull all the fuses & the light is still on, then you either have a intermitant short or a bad R/R...

--Lucky

Batteries like to be used, small charge and small discharge often.  If used every day I have seen them last for up to 7 years, but if they sit idle for periods they tend to deteriorate and sulfate.  Once that white sulfation is on the plates it is permanent loss of that area as far as making electricity.  Since many of us are fair weather riders the batteries will suffer some.  Better quality batteries should last much longer than the cheap ones.  Yuasa has always made good batteries, but they made more than one quality level.  The better ones are usually more expensive.

Brilliant Lucky!
+3 for all the posts.

find the problem before you sink big bucks in an expensive battery.

First, I do not use a battery tender full time. When I got my '83 back on the road in 2003, I put a new Yuasa in it. Cost about $65. That lasted about 18 months, my typical experience with Yuasa. Bought a wallyworld battery for $35 and it lasted 5 yrs and I replaced it with the same last year. I put a sealed wallyworld in my TDM 4 yrs ago and it is still going. I think Tiger will second my wallyworld experience.

Quote from: Walt_M. on March 20, 2010, 07:41:12 AM
... I think Tiger will second my wallyworld experience.

...and I do Walt 8) I run "across the river" about every 4 to 6 weeks (shopping with the wife!!) and while I'm there I pick up batteries for my rebuilds...which I also have on "The Mistress", which sits on a battery tender for 4 - 5 months over the winter (bought at Wallmart to!!)...and I have had no problems at all.

Dave, you have to have a problem somewhere in the system to knock out batteries on such a regular basis :-\ Hunt out that gremlin my friend...

                 

Thanks all.  You make a good point Tiger.  Maybe my battery is acting as a fuse for a bad stator or R/R.

Left it on the trickle charger overnight.  At first it was saying "charged" but after a while it switched over to "charging" which I thought was good.  This morning the red "trouble" light is lit. I can hear bubbling and the battery is warm (in a cold garage).  I checked the voltage and off the charger its reading 10.4 volts.

Funny thought...could it have been the filpping battery tender all along that has killed the battery's?

David

1) Storage temperature

2) Electrical load on the bike

Both solved by taking the battery out and putting it inside on the trickle charger alone.

dave, it very well could be the charger. i had one a few years ago that had a boost setting on it for jump starting. i had always used that one because it charged faster, till my dad barrowed it and then told me it wasent comming off boost. it was supposed to be automatic but was putting out 50 amps all the time. i dont remember why he tested it.

i also had a yusa battery in my FZR that had boiled complety dry on a ride one time. i mean not a drop of acid left in there. i put regular tap water in it just to see what would happen and after a day on the trickle charger it came back to life. a little lower that normal but that FZR always started good, i used that battery for another year till i sold the bike.

I think one  of the cells is bad.  It is off the bike and has been on the trickle charger (no boost mode) all day.  The trouble light eventually went out and the charging light stayed lit but the battery won't go beyond 10.4 volts.  So, I'm guessing that I'll be needing a new battery.
The thing that really sucks is that my HDD just died on my main computer and I had to buy a new drive for it, so the battery has to wait until I can either sell something or beg my wife to let me take out the cash to get another battery (not likely).  She's kinda pissed that this is like my 4th or 5th battery.

David

yeah, well. :( :-\

The charging system is pretty simple, unlike the ignition system.  Pretty simple to check the stator and wires, and also check your Reg/Rec to see if it is properly functional.  Get a late model Reg/Rectifier with MOS/FET instead of SCR diodes.  They are nearly, but not quite, universal in application and generate much less heat than the SCR type.  Visions have a 3 phase (3 wire) stator and function like many other bikes.  Check out the comments about the Reg/Rec upgrade here and on eviltwinsbk.com in this regard.  Stator to Reg/Rec to battery.  That is the charging system.

My opinion is the stators are the victims of the dead or weak battery and the Reg/Rec gets damaged in the process, then the stator gets fried.  There are many bikes that use the same stator.  Well, similar, same stator but with different lengths of leads and plug configurations.

Something in your system gives up and loads the rest of the system until some other component is overloaded and the cascade begins.  The weakest link . . . .

Every cell should be 2.1 volts (6 cells, ends up being 12.6 volts optimum). If you're showing a surface charge of 10.5 volts you likely have a dead cell. Take your meter (you... do have a meter don't you?) put the neg on the neg on the battery, then take the positive and dip it (or just put a piece of foil so you can reach) into each cell. You'll find the dead one pretty fast. Doesnt do anything for you, but its still fun.

Another thing to check on your charger. Put your voltmeter on AC volts and check while your battery is charging. If you see AC volts that means the output filter on your charger is either not very good or going bad. Too much AC will kill the battery. Side note, a little AC can desulfate a sulfated battery.

Inane and Walt, Thanks.  I tried both of your suggestions and heres what I got:
Walt, Battery off bike and hooked up to charger give 10.5 volts on battery.  Off battery I get 13.5 volts DC.  On AC setting I get zero volts across the battery terminals while charging.
Inane, my results from your idea were kind of perplexing.  With the battery off the charger and the VM neg probe connected to the neg terminal of the battery, I get zero volts on cell #1.  For cell #2 I get 1.25v, cell#3 1.91v, cell#4, 4.1v, cell#5 6.1v and cell#6 8.2v.
My guess is that cell #1 is bad and the increasing voltage between each cell is cumulative.  If thats the case then, it looks like cell 1 and 2 are bad.

David

  I just looked up my receipt on my AGM battery. The date is 10-4-02.  At that time it cost me $75 plus tax, no motorcycle supply had them.  I finally found it at a battery supply store, they had it in stock.  They told me charge it only if it gets low, and that is what I have done.  When my bike has been sitting for a few months, and the temperature is 45, I prefer jumping from a car battery straight to the starter post and NOT pushing in, the starter solinoid, so I am powering only the starter motor,  totally isolated from the rest of the bike.

Went to Advanced Autoparts today to get a part for my son's car and asked about MC battery's.  Told the guy what my problem was and he said that the lead acid battery's are pretty cheap.  They had an AGM battery that fits the Vision for 74.99.  Comes with a two year warranty. (One year full replacement/1 year pro-rated) whereas my wallyworld batt had a 6 month pro rated warranty.
As soon as I get some cash I think I'll get the AGM.

David

http://www.mikesxs.net/products-76.html#products

You want the CBTX14AHL-BS AGM Battery

Might be cheaper.  He shipped it to me with no problems.

Brian

Well. good news and good news!  (and not so good news since I just read Brians post about 30 mins too late).

I begged and pleaded with Vicki to let me get the battery and after agreeing to make a small dent in her long honeydo list she released the funds.  Went out and picked up an AGM battery at Advanced and swapped out my old core.  Used a school coupon for another 5.00 off and walked out with my new battery.  Was told that it is fully charged and after checking with my Volt meter, was happy to see that it was.  Installed into YJ while she sat on Prime.
Rolled her out into the driveway and cranked her up.... AND....SHE STARTED ON THE FIRST CRANK!!!!  She has sat all winter and started on the first crank!  I love this bike!
Weather is crappy out right now so hopefully it will be nicer and I can go out for a ride tomorrow.

David

So I guess the next question is how do AGM batteries figure in to stator/R/R failures...

Would those who have used them for a while please chime in?  Someone go drag H2O back here...

--Lucky

My data means absolutely nothing. I have an AGM battery.  I have had no stator or R/R problems.

  Lucky, My bike has 58,000 miles, about 10,000/stator.  Battery has made no difference. 

I had an AGM in another one of my steeds... lasted 8 years and didn't lose a stator or R&R... but that's meaningless

here is some helpfull info:

Yusa sealed battery 'fo the Vision... around $55 shipped off eBay.. part number YTX14AHL-BS

looks like the 14AHL-BS part is common with lots of other batteries

 :) Wallmart...#ES14LA2...$40.00...Never had a problem 8)

to be honest ive never had any luck with the walmart cheepo batteries they fail every year and i spent 40 dollars every year for each bike... gets expensive...

Quote from: Tiger on March 22, 2010, 08:22:31 PM
:) Wallmart...#ES14LA2...$40.00...Never had a problem 8)

Died after less than one year. two bad cells.

David

Never, ever underestimate the Visions' lust for electrons. 

Quote from: QBS on March 23, 2010, 11:36:39 PM
Never, ever underestimate the Visions' lust for electrons. 

LOL...couldn't have said it better Bob, as I'm sitting here studying organic chemistry and surfing ROV.

As a side note, I think I may have a slight short somewhere in my system. I have been watching the voltage on my installed voltmeter and it is dropping by 0.1 volt per day since I installed the battery.
Gonna do some troubleshooting later to see what I come up with.

David

Inanes' testing concept sounds like a great way to start the diagnosis process.  I'm going to use it on my BMW automobile in the very near future.

Quote from: YellowJacket! on March 24, 2010, 12:56:50 PM

Quote from: QBS on March 23, 2010, 11:36:39 PM
Never, ever underestimate the Visions' lust for electrons. 

LOL...couldn't have said it better Bob, as I'm sitting here studying organic chemistry and surfing ROV.

As a side note, I think I may have a slight short somewhere in my system. I have been watching the voltage on my installed voltmeter and it is dropping by 0.1 volt per day since I installed the battery.
Gonna do some troubleshooting later to see what I come up with.

David

Use alligator clips and connect the + and - of your meter to the bikes pig tail on the negative, then the negative lug on the battery. THEN remove the cable with your meter attached to the seperate ends (meter set on amps, obviously) and see what your draw is.

I'm getting a much higher price on Yuasa AGM battery for my vision, are we sure about the YTX14AHL-BS  part # for a true AGM battery

the YUASA YTX14AHL-BS  is a sealed battery.. the  CBTX14AHL-BS at mikesxs is the agm battery

I'm loving the AGM.  Bike fires up every time. Choke still needed for cold starts.  Other than that, now I just hit the start button and go.

David

After doing a some research on the internet,I'm seeing two types of AGM batteries.One type you fill and seal.the other comes factory sealed and charged.The factory sealed yuasa battery has TZX prefex,and cost a lot more.Their doesn't seem to be a replacement battery of the TZX factory sealed that fit a Vision.Can anyone explain things a little clearer for me.Are the fill and seal Maintance free battries just as good.
Thanks for your help

My AGM is a sealed and came fully charged.  The model number is ETX15L  if that helps.

David

You did not have to add acid and seal it,correct

Quote from: auto on April 01, 2010, 09:20:36 PM
You did not have to add acid and seal it,correct

Thats correct. It came in the box and is sealed.  Says it can work in all positions without leaking and does not require a vent tube.  It was also fully charged when I bought it.

David

The you-fill-it agm batteries are a bit cheesy imo. A true agm has a special electrolyte mix and special matting in it to absorb the electorlyte properly. The idea is the mat isnt fully saturated, just evenly partially saturated, thats a big reason why the factory sealed ones can go in any position, theres nothing to leak even if it could. The you-fill-it types are just a regular lead acid battery thats got some kind of foam or glass mat in there thats basically just a sponge. I dont see how they could have great quality control with the end user being responsible for proper filling. That said, if the AGM or true gel battery is too expensive (they are for what they're going in i think) you could just get a yuasa standard battery, or a similar premium battery for much less and still get an awesome warranty and replace it when it goes bad.

Except in my case, the AGM wasn't that much more expensive than the standard Yuasa battery (I think about 60 % more.)  I've had much fewer problems with the AGM than I have ever had with a Yuasa.  Well, there was one that was really good, but in the 25 years I've owned the bike, only 1 lasted long enough to match the AGM.  With the AGM, my bike consistently starts in a second unless it's been sitting for a long time.

Brian

Well went to batties plus store-they carry ALL kinds of batteries.Bought a CLYX2-15L battery.He said it was a step up from the CBTX14AHL.Cost 87.00 dollors and worth every dollor.I think this battery takes the place of 15 carb cleans.My vision never started so good.This battery really spins the motor over and it fires right off.Thanks for all the info.

I'll echo what Brian and auto said.  My bike really starts a lot better.  (although now I'm getting the "you've gotta do the starter clutch fix soon clunk")  I'm going to replace my old battery cables with teh ones I bought from tiger (absolutely the best quality I've seen) and I'm sure that will be nothing short of another major improvement.
As far as cost goes, I've spent about $50.00 a year on lead/acid battery's and they have crapped out on me after just over a year.  The AGM that I bought cost $75.00  and has a 2 year warranty (1 year full replacement and the second year is pro-rated) so, If it dies after one year like my other battery's, then I get it replaced for free; 2 years and its pro-rated.  From what I have been hearing and reading about them, they are a good investment.

Now, to go replace some cables and test for a short.

David

Quote from: Brian Moffet on April 02, 2010, 12:29:37 PM
Except in my case, the AGM wasn't that much more expensive than the standard Yuasa battery (I think about 60 % more.)  I've had much fewer problems with the AGM than I have ever had with a Yuasa.  Well, there was one that was really good, but in the 25 years I've owned the bike, only 1 lasted long enough to match the AGM.  With the AGM, my bike consistently starts in a second unless it's been sitting for a long time.

Brian

Not unusual. More cranking amps mean more amps available to keep the voltage up, hotter spark, better starting.

On an aside, i'm intensely curious why there hasnt been more messing arounds with different coils, different plugs and so forth. It wouldnt take very long to slap on a pair of HEI packs from a mid eighties gm car, shrug.

Inane, please expound regarding your HEI comment.

Quote from: QBS on April 03, 2010, 10:23:55 AM
Inane, please expound regarding your HEI comment.

I thought about it, and i was wrong, you cant just throw a set of HEI coils on there, they have a special design where the rotor for the distributor goes right to the coil.

However, you could just get virtually any modern dry solo coil as long as theres room in there for it to fit. One of the guys on the other forum i'm on put i think ford escort coils on his cb1000, he said it was the bees knees. I know the vision coils work alright, but it would definitely help starting to get hotter coils.

Just a little bit of an update.
My Schumacher battery tender turned out to be a peice of crap - probably why I was also buying batteries every year.  I decided earlier this year that the thing was probably in fact defective and I was right.  Now, after investing in the AGM battery I also have a new (Actual brand name) Battery Tender JR.  It works great.  NO problems charging the battery or keeping it charged and no trouble light.  If I hook the schumacher up to it, the trouble light comes on.  If I hook the battery tender up, everything works great.  AND... YJ starts incredibly easy as well.  Yes, a fully juiced battery is a requirement for the Vision.

I'm a happy camper again and my old schumacher battery "tender" is rotting in a landfill somewhere.

David

My battery was running low on water when I left my Battery Tender JR on all the time, so
now I  plug it in a timer and only have it on for one hour a day. Seems to be working
much better.

Dan

My 2007  AGM battery is doing fine It has sat for a year , during the Visions siesta and will still turn the engine over! Never had it on a charger.

First, you don't want to put a WalMart battery in a motorcycle.  They're made for lawnmowers.  Get the AGM battery from MikesXS.  It's the same one as needed on the older XS650.  Finally, your regulator/rectifier might be fubar.  I'd have it tested.  Or else your stator isn't charging.  Have that checked too. 

I noticed a huge drain on my battery when I tried to start it and actually thought the battery was toast until I pulled the starter and cleaned and greased her all up and now she starts fantastic and the battery seems like it is new again.

starters are really hard working pieces of equipment.  if youve looked at enough of ours, you'll see that the anemic alignment tabs don't keep them from twisting over the years. this has a negative effect.  anyone who races electric RC cars knows that where the brushes sit in relation to the poles on the permanant magnets affects torque vs rpm.

get these things far enough out of alignment & performance degrades....

they should be pulled off, cleaned & inspected every 4 years or so...

Quote from: PeteXS/GS/CB/XZ on July 04, 2010, 10:43:06 PM
First, you don't want to put a WalMart battery in a motorcycle.

:) I couldn't disagree more... ::) "The Mistress" runs on one, as do ALL my rebuilds...