Charging system conversations with Electrex

[Paul_Jungnitsch]

I just warmed up my bike briefly to change oil and noticed the engine cover the stator is bolted to warmed up much more than the oil did. It seems it would be fairly easy to bolt a large, flat heatsink on the outside of the engine cover using the two bolts that hold the access cover on.

Any possibility of this helping? Windings almost never seem to fail on an air cooled automotive alternator until the bushings go.

BTW my stator has lasted 15 yrs/50,000km so far, so stator death apparently has some complications.

[Dave T.]

I don't believe the stator puts out 50-100VAC. I put my DVM across 2 of the 3 leads (open) and got as little as 9VAC, with 17VAC being the most. Of course this is RMS voltage, not P-P voltage.

In my Yamaha factory manual it says that the alternator puts out 14V, 20 amps at 3000 rpm's. The amps creep up according on the graph to 23 amps @ 6000 rpm's and then levels off.

If you are touring at 6000 rpm's on the freeway for two hours, you would think this would fully charge the battery. So where do all these amps go now?? Into the stator poles? Shunted to ground in the R/R? Headlamp is 60W, so that's 5 amps. Tailight is probably 2 amps or less. Indicator lamps probably are 2 amps total.

I had a grounded stator for 60 miles, and I never noticed a lack of voltage, even though the meter was showing in the high 11's as far as voltage. Running time was about an hour or two on my last grounded stator.

I emailed Yuasa batteries this stator question and I will see what they say. 14 amp hour battery means the battery will be "dead" in 10 hours under a 1.4 amp load.

[Rick G]

 I don't believe a heat sink, on the out side  of the case will not remove  enough  heat to do the job.
Lucky and I had a Yahoo IM conversation yesterday evening and came up with a two pronged attack on the problem. He will work with Eletrex  and try to promote a higher quality stator and R/R  . I will continue to develop  a method of attaching a oil cooler to the Vision, if I succeed in this ,I'll make them  available for all visionaries to buy.  
After  reading the posts by very knowledgeable  people, coupled with  my experence  repairing motorcycles , I think that if the stator dies shortly after installation, that the R/R is likely to be the cause. If on the other hand  the stator dies after many miles , in all likleyhood it died from the cumulative  affects of over heating, due to a poor enviorment. Having said that , the R/R could kill a high milage stator too! I think an oil cooler AND  a better R/R  are needed as well as a top quality stator , assuming that this can be worked out at a price  anyone can afford.

[RussD]

Hey Lucky.......Just curious if you've had any more conversations with Ritzo? I think you're on the right track, so I hope you can plead our case & convince him to make some modifications.

I took the Vision out for a spin today. Was out for about an hour. Had it on the interstate & was flying down the onramp racing semi's for the lane & doing 85 mph, and listening to her purr, and thinking "Man....I must be crazy to be thinking about getting rid of this bike!" Then about a half hour later it died on me at the gas station & wouldn't start back up, & I'm thinkin' "Man.....I gotta be crazy to be thinkin' about keepin' this bike!"   ;)

Bottom line.......I've pretty much made my own mind up that if you're right & can convince Electrex to change/modify their part for our unique charging needs, I'll probably keep her. But if we have to go this whole oil cooler route like Rick is thinking, that's a bit much for me (drilling in the crankcase & welding, etc). I know you guys say it's no big mod, but I think that'll be the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I'll probably put her up for sale at that point, so I REALLY hope you can convince Ritzo (no preassure or anything!!)   ;D

[RussD]

After ?reading the posts by very knowledgeable ?people, coupled with ?my experence ?repairing motorcycles , I think that if the stator dies shortly after installation, that the R/R is likely to be the cause.

Seems like I just may be the solution to your theory then Rick as mine's only been in for 4-6 weeks/2-300 miles. Once the snow starts flying, I guess we'll find out when I finally tear her down again.

Actually we could find out before that, couldn't we, if I had the stator wires checked to see if it was producing normal output or not? If the readings were low, wouldn't that indicate the stator was bad, therby validating your theory about the r/r being the cause. Especially since I didn't replace the r/r last summer with Electrex, but with a salvage yard OEM.

[Lucky]

Rick & I had a little conversation about the oil cooler, and if it goes the direction we were tossing around, it should be a cheap, simple (bolt-on) and effective mod.

what we discussed is an adapter mounted between the filter/cover & the block that re-routs the oil to a cooler by (below?) the radiator, and back into the filter.  something like an aluminum block under an inch thick. sounds simple... rick will let us know what he comes up with, give him some time.

I wanted to call Ritzo today, but never even go close to a phone all day, it's 9:30pm & I just sat down...

[RussD]

OK........She pulled the Lazarus bit on me again tonight. I told you that it died on me at the gas station earlier today. I left it there and walked home (only about 5 or 6 blocks). I finally got my lazy butt up to go get her a little bit ago. Walked over there, and SURPRISE......She turned right over & fired up! I was able to ride her home.

My question is this.........I know Rick told me last week that the chemical reaction of the battery will partially recharge itself, even when previously dead, but I've got another question/theory. My first car was a 1980 Ford Fairmont Futura. One summer it developed similar symptoms as my Vision is exhibiting. Once the motor warmed up on it, after half hour or so as I recall, it would suddenly cut out while driving......didn't matter where or when or at what speed......just like my Vision. I'd have to let it sit for awhile, cool down, and then it would miraculously restart.

Turned out it was the computer module on the inside fender. Apparently the circuits would get hot & separate, thereby causing the cutout. Once the circuits cooled off, they would contract again, make contact, and the car would run for a bit until they heated up again. $35 and a new computer module later, and she was running trouble free again.

Could a similar situation be happening with my Vision? Is there some sort of computer module on it as well that could be doing the same thing as my old Futura? Just a thought

[Dave T.]

Well, here is what Yuasa batteries said to my question.

My Q: Can a fully charged battery damage a stator in a motorcycle? If the battery is fully charged, but the stator is still at full output, does all the current get rejected by the battery so the stator is stuck dissipating all the heat from charging? Can this make a motorcycle stator burn out?

Their answer: No, that is what the rectifier / regulator is for.
Current does not come directly from that stator, nor does any go back into it.
A battery will only accept as much current as it wants, if it is fully charged, it does not need any current. This process has been perfected over the last 50 years.

Now if the battery was bad, and the stator had to work overtime, then maybe I could see it overheating, but once again, it should be protected against that.

Seems like the R/R should be dissipating all the heat, unless the stator is working too hard (too much of a load). So why does our poor stator keep burnin'??  ??? Poor R/R design?

[Walt_M.]

GeorgeRYoung's last post explained it pretty well. The stator normally runs pretty hot so it probably does not take much wrong to do one in. Has the engine ever been overheated? Are there any bad diodes in the R/R? Has the bike ever been dropped on the left side or taken an impact to the stator case?
I think all can be contributing factors. Some time ago, somebody did a post about an electrical device called a Battery Buddy or something like that. It was pretty expensive but I'm beginning to think it might be worth considering.
I wasn't even close, it is called a Charge Guard and can be found at www.kisantech.com.

[Dave T.]

I got my Rick's stator in the mail from Dennis Kirk the other day. It looks like a OEM core that was rewound by hand. It has two 1/2 grommets and the OEM plug put on already.

The electrex stator is completely different, wound with a mechanical winder/machine.

I have $18 dollar credit and was thinking of getting the steering head bearings, and Moose has a voltage regulator for $15 with 2 wires. I was thinking of getting the VR and tying it into the red output wire of the R/R and see what happens to the voltage.

[RussD]

How can you tell the difference between hand wound & machine wound.......Is it looser or something?

[rick_nowak]

this moose voltage regulator, does it have heat disbursing capabilities?  mostly, does it have some mass and some sort of heatsink plate mount where it attaches to chassis?
if it does not have these things don't waste your money!remember, the problem with permanent magnet  style alternators like the visions is lack of reliable watt burning (heat disbersal)

[Dave T.]

Mechanical wound stators have nice uniform wraps, while a hand wound one has irregular grouping.

As far as heat sinking, I dunno. I want to get it and see the current rating for it. I could get a heat sink and fasten it with paste, if Moose says so.

I'm trying to make my own R/R but the regulator section is a leetle more complex. 3 phase bridge rectifier rated at 35 amps I can get for $14 from Newark electronics. I got an idea for the regulator. Getting a heat sink could be a problem too.

Gotta do something in my spare time..   ;D

[Kenny]

 More bits?:
      I remember when the first Ventures came out,they fried stators left and right. I believe the fix from Yamaha was to drill a larger passage or replace one of the oil passage bolts with one with a larger passage. The idea was to flow a higher volume of oil and ultimately keep the stator cooler.
      Ken S.      

[Riche]

  DT
  Have you thought about a ziner (spelling) diode for voltage regulation? They allow only a certain amount of voltage to pass, the rest is disapated in heat. I used one on an Ossa SDR in the early 70's. You must have DC going into it. My cooling solution was an extruded heat sink from Radio Shack. Bought the diode there too. As I remember it was expensive to get one that would handle the load.

[rick_nowak]

might work good with cooler oil from bike with oil cooler!  i think we already sort of determined that the existing oil on vision was too hot to be effective.

[rick_nowak]

zeener diodes were commonly used on english bikes in their last years.  perhaps one of the guys on this forum who works on these old crocks has some ideas.  my memory of them was that they had their problems.  give me a nice Lucas magdyno that puts out a nice healthy 36 watts any day!  those were the days. some days you were lucky to have lights at all.

[Dave T.]

?DT
 ?Have you thought about a ziner (spelling) diode for voltage regulation? They allow only a certain amount of voltage to pass, the rest is disapated in heat. I used one on an Ossa SDR in the early 70's. You must have DC going into it. My cooling solution was an extruded heat sink from Radio Shack. Bought the diode there too. As I remember it was expensive to get one that would handle the load.

Zenier diodes are rarely rated over 5 watts that I have seen. They could only be a part of a small circuit controlling a larger circuit. Most use thyristors (SCR's) for voltage regulation, possibly transistors. The problem with the vision is the permanent magnet. The ticket would be to use field windings to control output in the rotor.

[Rick G]

Zenier diodes  were fairly reliable , although lucas ( Joe Lucas , Prince of darkness) stators would toast every so often. We looked at them like spark plugs , you have to put new ones in every so often! We haden't gotten used to Japaenese reliability   YET!

[Walt_M.]

The R/R diagram in the Yamaha shows half wave rectifiers on the three phases of the stator output and a Zener diode with the regulator shown as a white area. That is where the SCR(silicon controlled rectifier) is located. As I've stated before, these things work but, as with everything else, they get old and eventually fail. We know the stators run hot, the trick is to keep them from overheating. I know some of you have monitors on the charging systems and it is a great idea. I was going to install a voltmeter on mine but I'm going to look at the LED monitor first.
Everybody really needs to think about this because, obviously, there are going to be more failures as the bikes age and it would be better to see something starting to fail and shut down before it all goes.