Wide Band AFR Meter

[Blake]

Well.. thinking about it.. the only ACCURATE way we will ever get the carbs to run as perfect as they can be.. is to use a wide band afr (air, fuel ratio) meter.  And well.. basically, since I've already screwed up the mixture with my new homemade exhaust, im seriously thinking about buying one maybe in a month or so when i can up some money.. with this meter, you can now monitor the air fuel ratio using an O2 sensor like your car has, but using a more accurate one (sensors alone are generally $150-$250 USD).  

professional high quality afr meters can run starting easily at $2,000.  however, there are a few small companies out there that sell the meter and sensor for around a 500-600 dollar package deal.  a bit steep...yes...but..well..for what im trying to do... its pretty much a requirement...  now i know they have 70 dollar afr meters, but looking on the net, those use 2 or 3 wire oxygen sensors..which basically function like a oil temp gauge...just a big resistor..  but to get the good accuracy and wire range (readings like 14.7lamba (ideal crusiing mizture..and the wide bands run from 8-25..so you get a full range-25 being lean and 8 being rich...

anyway.. by having this..not only will i be able to properly jet the bike with the stock airbox, and my custom exhaust..but the possibilities are endless:

stock airbox, custom exhaust
uni pod filters, custom exhaust
k&N filters, custom exhaust
k&n filters and stock exhaust
roundslide carbs, uni pods stock exhaust
roundslide carbs, k&n pods stock exhaust
roundslide carbs, uni pods custom exhaust
roundslide carbs, K&N pods custom exhaust
STOCK AIRBOX AND STOCK EXHAUST...


by using the meter...we can easily tell where lean spots or rich spots are, and can make jet adjustments accordingly.  which makes it a LOT easier than by just using the "seat of the pants" feel..(seat of pants wont tell you how far rich or lean you are, etc..)

i'll admit im a lot better with carbs than i am exhausts...at least i've had a lot of experience with carbs..and with the proper tools, the job only gets easier..


but like i said..  afr meters arent cheap.. but what i wanted to ask all of you is if you have any knowledge or know of anyone who perhaps has one, or could reccomend one..

the two main ones i found while online here at work are the lambda boy, and the tech edge meter

www.techedge.com.au (tech edge..SMALL buisness..guy basically making them and selling them- was looking at the 2.0 version..it has rpm input too it says..which would help a lot.)

www.lambdaboy.com/ (was looking at the full version one)

as you can see both are around the 500 dollar range... each seems to use a different 5 wire oxygen sensor.. and well..basically i wanted to see if anyone knew anything about these or could reccomend which is "better."..   with something this expensive..i want to make sure i get a good product.



So im going to try and shoot for sometime in september to try and purchase one of these (if at all possible..looks like no new hunting rifle  :'(....300 win mag...oh well.. this will definately be worth it..) so hopefully in the near future i can start on that aspect of the bike,....I'm defiantely planning on using it for more than just the vision (my other bikes, dad's suzuki intruder, hopefully some local biker buddies will want to "rent" my services for a small fee..to help recouperate some of the price...)..but we'll see how it all works out.



any ideas/comments/suggestions? (about companies, etc, or the idea of this...anythings welcome...we'll never learn anything new unless we try...)




Blake...(going to be eating 19 cent mac and cheese for a long time after this :)

[rick_nowak]

oxygen sensor puts out a voltage signal which can be read by a sensitive meter.  i believe that 14:1 or so is about 2.4 volts or thereabouts.  all the wires besides the ground(case) and single wire do is run heaters etc, so that the sensor is more stable when warming up.  the basic single wire sensor is no more or no less accurate than a multi wire sensor when heated up to operation temp.  the manufactures have gone to 3 wire to help control emissions during the warm-up cycle.
i don't think this is your main concern.  a sensitive high impedence dc voltmeter and a $39 sensor will do your job.  no need to spend more.  you may already own the meter!  i have seen tables which give various voltages for the state of richness/leanness.  the LED style meters use a cascade of zeeneer diodes of appropriate voltages to light up the appropriate led, and they cost about $75 without the oxygen sensor.  $500 boxes are selling a lot of sizzle vs good value.

[RobTx]

Rick is right.  O2 sensors put out a voltage, they are not a variable resistor like a temperature sending unit.  This voltage can be measured directly, that's how you test one on your car.  I've thought of building an expanded scale voltmeter to do just what you want to do.  The hardest thing, I think, will be getting the O2 sensor far enough into the exhaust so that the temperature is stable.  Plans for a simple a/f ratio meter with led's is here: http://www.students.tut.fi/~eppu/dev/EGO-bar.html

Here are voltage to ratio #'s
Volts A/F ratio

.1 17:1
.2 16.5
.3 16:1
.4 15.4
.5 14.9
.6 14.4
.7 13.8
.8 13.2
.9 12.7
.985 12.1

Lots of info on the web.
Rob

[rick_nowak]

fthanks rob.  i knew my numbers were off but i also knew i was on the right track

[Blake]

Thanks Rick and Rob...


see...i learn something new here every day...




thanks,



Blake

[DoubleVision]

From what i've read and understand you CANNOT get accurate A/F ratio with anything BUT a 5 wire O2 sensor plain and simple. Any other # wire sensor will only tell you rich and lean but not how much. The Lambadaboy one looks really nice was looking at doing one of those years ago. But I have no curcuit board soldering experience which takes some nerve. Peace
Frank

[DoubleVision]

From what i've read and understand you CANNOT get accurate A/F ratio with anything BUT a 5 wire O2 sensor plain and simple. Any other # wire sensor will only tell you rich and lean but not how much. The Lambadaboy one looks really nice was looking at doing one of those years ago. But I have no curcuit board soldering experience which takes some nerve. Peace
Frank

[RobTx]

DoubleVision, you're right, what I'm describing is not super accurate, just in the ballpark, but for $15 worth of parts, maybe good enough.  There are newer types of O2 sensors that use different technology to read a/f mixture directly.  A brief overview here: http://www.gmtcny.com/WBO2S.htm
Rob

[ArrrGeee]

here ya go,
 diy wb o2

http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi/projects/diy_wb/

there are still a couple of pia issues to deal with tho,
drilling hole in your pipes to accomodate the sensor
and being able to ride around with the thing running so
you can get some accurate information out of it.
alternatively, you could try and book a dyno
for an afternoon.  I'd guess that any dyno shop
would have a minimum 2-4 gas ega available for the
dyno session.
Still, part of the fun would be building it yourself.

also, you could probably pick up
a used 2 gas ega for fairly cheap money these days
that would save you having to drill holes in your
exhaust system...
although if I remember right, my 81 Seca had ports already
predrilled on the stock header, I can't remember if they
are\were there on the vision.  anybody know?

-Ron

[Blake]

Hey Rick...


part of the reason i was looking into this was that the only place i could find in northern virginia here that does a dyno/afr jetting..wants 300 bucks...  if i do two bikes..it evens out..



also another place i found.. that has a DIY kit:

http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/1v5/kit.htm  the tech edge place i mentioned before that sells it as a pre-built too.. basically it seems all you have to do is solder everything together.. as all parts are there..

and your definately right.. the fun is in the getting there and doing it yourself..

also..regarding the holes in the exhast.

i dont know if anyone else ever noticed.. but in the rear collector.. theres a bung welded to the pipe near the bottom, with a bolt screwed into it.  it looks about a 6mm or maybe 4mm bolt..pretty short..  but the designers of the bike obviously had to have had some intention for it..hmm..  also i THINK theres one on the underside of the  crossover of the exhaust.. but i might be mistaken..   with the holes not being big enough for for even a EGT probe... i really wonder what those were meant for?   cant be for condensation "releases"... they're defiantely too big for that.. they're sort of an odd size really..





Blake

[ArrrGeee]

yup, those would be the ports I was referring to for dealer
ega\setup.   The dealers have special adapters that screw into
those ports for setting emision mixtures.  If you know someone that works at an inspection station you could probably get
them to do an ega sniff on your bike. of course that only
gives you a small part of the picture but could help troubleshoot
some of the running or mechanical issues.

what I would like to see is for someone to put it all together
in an onboard system with the sophistication level of todays
cars, where you could tune and program all the various settings
spark timing, fuel mixture, monitor various temps with displays
for each function etc.
heh, while we're making a list how about a blower or nitrous?
anyone do nitrous on one of these?
or adapt an efi system from another bike, forget the
annoying carb glitches, get injected...   yeehaw!

-Ron

[Blake]

nitrous???  ;D..hehehe...give me a few months until i slap a pair of round slides on it first.. then id definately be up for nitrous...  hehehe....that is... if the low paying jobs back at school can support this vision habit :)


a while ago i was actually looking at nitrous stuff online.. and making your own system is actually a LOT cheaper than buying a pre built system.  the most expensive parts are the nitrous solonoid (upwards near $100).. and the actual bottle you use to store the nitrous (actual NO2 brand bottles in the 200-300 dollar range.. BUT..  why pay for the name.. when all it is is a high pressure CO2 bottle with a 1,200psi test rate... (blow is 3 times that..)...  you can get those easily (for a 2lb bottle) under 100..and even 50..  


i remember one place.. not sure of which..that sold a "starter building package"..  basically the fuel and nitrous solonoids and hoses...you supply the nozzles (about 20-30 bucks each) and the bottles, a few other accessories (blow off valve if you choose...good way to scare the competition).. and your set..  although it does seem hard.. if you read around a little and pay attention to the formulas you can find (jet size vs hp increase, and ratio of fuel..)..  I'd say we can EASILY..actually..without any effort.. we can pump out an easy 25hp more..  (we can do a lot more.. (upwards of 200hp)..but lets be real.. its a 20 year old bike.. with 20 year old metal..  i dont know about you but id say 30hp would be the max i'd want to try...



im definately going to have to come up with a name for my bike..it being the guinna pig and all..


i already call my v-star the "YamahaHog.".....hmm..



Blake

[Blake]

quick search of the internet...


http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/tanks/cd-b.shtml

2.5lb CO2 tank (which is the biggest a bike will hold (without looking completely stupid)..  $79.95  (5lb is 69.95...shame it wont fit...i believe...im pretty sure its too wide to fit "easily" with some coaxing..)


nozzles: 2 @ $50.00 each = 100
http://www.nitrodaves.com/outlet/products.asp?group=15&section=35


nitrous solonoid: 100
fuel solonoid:       60
hoses and hookups: 50


it wont be cheap... this is just what i rememeber and looking at other sites.. (i have some sites saved at home i know that had some good prices.. but if anyone is concidering nitrous..expect to pay around 400-500 to get yourself going:

bottle, valve
nitrous solonoid
fuel solonoid
fuel pump
2 Y splitters (1 for fuel, 1 for nitrous)
1 high pressure hose for nitrous solonoid to bottle
2 high pressure hoses for nitrous solonoid to nozzle
2 regular pressure hoses for fuel
1 regular hose for fuel solonoid back
2 direct port injectors
injector jets..



there ya go...


sorry.. with nothing else to do at work.. i tend to not have much else to do but post here a lot and dream about mods to my vision....hehe...



Blake