Riders Of Vision

Ok, this board has a problem, and by board I mean ROV as a community.

ROV started as a monthly paper newsletter following a letter in a magazine around 1985.  A few years later it evolved into a bulletin board on a fledgling internet. From there Ron has taken us to a few web addresses to where we are now.

I have read all the old newsletters, and have been a ROV member for 13 or 14 years.  This group has always been about the bike. We all know full well that ROV is unlike any other Forum out there.  Honestly, we really don't need my website, the rest of this website, Dave's ROV facebook page or any other XZ550 related sites. This Forum (I believe) is what makes us ROV  The aforementioned web pages are iceing on the cake. (no, i'm not saying they should go anywhere)

I can't remember any 'flame wars' in our group. Ever.  But, as I said, we have a problem...

Recently many of our conversations, mostly in 'off topic', but not all, have gone off on political tangents.  Ok, that's what 'off topic' is for, except that i've been quietly watching these conversations begin to divide us.  The way things are in this country, and the rest of the world, of course this is a very passionate subject. btw, I personally do like how we are free to go off topic (sometimes way off topic) unlike some boards that are strict about that sort of thing...

People here, whether they admit it or not, are harboring resentment.  This is not good for us. It has nothing to do with XZ550 (and 400) motorcycles.

Now you can say lots of things:  "If you don't like it, don't read it" "can't we all just get along?" "It's called off topic for a reason!" "I was teasing, it was all in fun"  etc, but the point is, it doesn't matter what the reason is, we need to fix this... or things are going to get worse.

So how do we get everyone to agree on a solution?
I would like to propose some calm dicussion to see iif we can reach a consensus.

I have a suggestion:
A 'Gentlemans agreement' to keep politics out of our conversations entirely. I think we are cappable of self governing ourselves. (Ironic ain't it?)

(and if most of you think i'm wrong & there really isn't a problem, then i won't bring it up again unless i end up being right)

What think ye?

Lucky, as you may have noticed, I occasionally participate in "off topic" but only rarely. Therefore, I don't really have a feel for what has led you to broach this subject.

Nevertheless, the reason I avoid "off topic" is that opinions, subjects and biases unrelated to the V are what can be found there.  I don't want to know the personal, not V related, biases of other Forum members that might not align with my own.  I fear that knowing these different biases would affect my enjoyment of other Forum members participation and input in the General and Tech boards and I don't want to risk loosing that.

Even so, enough bias has leaked into the General and Tech boards to dampen my enjoyment and response enthusiasm.

I most certainly would not propose deleting the "off topic" board. I just choose to avoid it.

Lucky, I'm afraid you are right, but a topic like "gas prices" begs political comments.  I'm probably as guilty as some others for responding with political remarks, and I apologize if I have offended anyone.  Thanks for the nudge, I will try to keep more of my political opinions and musings to myself.  One reason for such open comments is that we feel comfortable among friends, at least I do. :-[ ;)

I think this is my 5th year.  I log on just about every day.  I've had a lot of help and a lot of laughs.I love reading about everybody's adventures on the road and in the shop,  but from the beginning I have pretty much skipped "off topic".  So I wasn't really aware of what Lucky has brought up.

In real life everyone I know thinks I'm nuts to ride an ugly, slow, skinny-tired, old motorcycle you can't get parts for and breaks down all the time (sound familiar?)  You guys are all I've got.  Let's stick together

I have to agree with Lucky's sentiments about the ROV and the Bull that seems to have permeated the boards since I joined...especially the 'Off Topic'.

I get no enjoyment from any of the political garbage (from any country) that comes up a lot on here. Politics, race, religion, etc, has absolutely no place on the ROV. All it does is cause infighting...THAT my friends is WRONG!!!

                 

Politics are such a part of our daily lives in subtle and not so subtle ways, it may be difficult to completely eradicate even here in our little community. We are a microcosm of society at large and bring our personal beliefs with us when we log on.

I believe poitics is probably the second greatest divisive tool we have in society. When I read Q's comments my first thought was: "that's a cowardly way to be - lets just stick our heads' in the sand and pretend we're not different so as to be more comfortable". But the more I thought about it, maybe he's right. I don't want to contemplate what this says about me as a person but that's another discussion  altogether.  :-\ Perhaps the forums should be kept a safe haven away from the political BS we're forced to endure the rest of our day. It's easier to focus on our "sameness"  - the Vision - when the distractions are removed. Or ignored if you prefer.  :)

Lucky, I agree with you in theory and realize it will take some restraint. I think I can get behind the notion but wouldn't draw the line at politics. I'd include it's insidious twin brother - religion.

Rikugun, I think of ROV as more like an escape from the pressures of everyday life, kind of like having a room in your house (or in my case, a shop) where I can go to focus & enjoy a hobby with no intrusion from the pressures of the outside world.  

I realise that even in a 'happy place' sometimes those pressures find their way in, and that some people have a harder time diconnecting from the tiring drum of socal pressure than others. I'll put it this way, the last thing i want when i'm greasy up to my wrists in an engine is the phone ringing & it's family or work calling about something i have little or no control over.  i'll call you back after i've showered...

As for religion...baby steps brother, baby steps...  

and to everyone: I do realize i'm being hypocritical considering the current thread in Off Topic, but that's more on a personal level (which doesn't help, I know)

I enjoy Off Topic a great deal . I take no offence with anyone's opinion. . Does it belong on this forum, good question .
I find I agree with some , don't agree with others. but ocassionally I learn something. 
Occasionally, I take a discussion to PM or email or a phone call. Hey its off topic . After my 14 years on this forum (give or take a few absences)  I know some of you fairly well. Not much you can say that will offend me!

so we are clear, i'm not suggesting we ask Ron to remove 'off topic'

It seems that so far it has been a split opinion about the opinionated posts...... And I happen to have a split opinion myself. I understand the aspect of this forum being a nice "get-a-way" from everyday life and that we should not be fighting and such on this forum ( and yes I am guilty Of a couple sarcastic any comments...) but I think that it is not necessarily just off topic that presents a problem, yet more of an interpretation issue. It is especially hard to interpret how people are trying to express themselves via text because there is no tone and or facial expression/body language. I'll have to admit that even a time or two I have felt that someone has been a little opinionated toward me at first but then realize that I formed a false conclusion. So whether or not we should not talk about politics  I don't know (I'm not big on them) but I think that maybe if everyone tried to look at one or two different sides of the opinion maybe that will help them interpret the opinions better. Maybe I just don't see it either because I'm rarely on off topic as well but so far I havnt seem many, if any at all, "heated" discussions

Removing "Off Topic" is not the answer. Those inclined will simply choose another forum to exhibit poor decorum.  ;D

I'm surprised some of the more politically active have not chimed in  ???

What happened to America land of the free this is starting to sound more like communist China ,If a few here don't agree with someone's opinion let's just remove their area to express themselves.
Some of you are starting to sound like the internet police
Look Guys the easiest way to shut someone's views down,,  that you don't agree with is DONT respond back, then that topic is dead in the water.

Iain
NZ

Quote from: iain on March 22, 2012, 01:51:03 PM
If a few here don't agree with someone's opinion let's just remove their area to express themselves.

I'm sure I'll be corrected if I am wrong, but no one has suggested removing the off-topic forum.  On the contrary, many people have stated that they are not advocating the removal of the off-topic forum.

Iain, I don't think anybody suggested removing Off Topic.

   Iain, missed the part about keeping the offtopic, but that thread only has been takin down.  His besr point is, if it bothers you, dont go their!   Brian, I meant to say thanks for the link on New York Times, I think that guy has it right, about domestic oil production, is not going to do much for price of gas, nor will it solve emeployment problem. I also went to Brenakie, although couldnt see the stream that I thought I might get to.   My Son is quite liberal and one of my desk tops is NY Times.   The one small thing I wanted to bring up is, I might be more inclinded to be a fan of the Federal Reserve, if they would be a little more open with their books.  Maybe, QBS, in his own words, could explain away  some of my dought.   

That worked out well. We were politics free for one whole day.  :D  :D  :laugh:

Hell with it, I'll weigh in.
It used to be you could talk politics even to the point of blows then calm down and shake hands, till the next save the world session be it over coffee or a few (well more than a few) beers.
Being heavily involved in college I didn't really notice it becoming taboo. Once out of school, it seemed if you took a view that didn't mesh with the group think of the crowd you were cast out as a pariah, unclean, leprous, and obviously mentally defective (Democrat/Republican) insert your favorite bully boy here.
Those who try to see both sides of the argument are baffled by the lack of common sense, and the ability of either side to not see the turd in the punch bowl. And for the love of God don't have a memory longer than 90 days because if you bring up something Joe politician said a year earlier you must have made it up from whole cloth.
So here we sit, divided over the most esoteric of issues while the politicians in the gleaming halls of Oz posture in front of the cameras for the benefit?? of the masses. In my observations, once a politician gets to the big house they treat you like the stuff you scrape off your shoe, unless of course you can donate larger amounts to the reelection fund.  When the camera shuts down they go out to drinks and dinner, because lawyers are taught to argue their point vehemently, yet not take it personally.
As was pointed out earlier in the post. The unwashed masses, end up taking it personally, then dislike/hate the other. And in doing so are blinded. We fiddle while the country burns around us.
Label me a cynic if you will. A Tshirt says it all,  I used to get mad, now I'm just amused.

IF something offends someone, you can hit the... 'Report to moderator'  .... and explain why it should be removed ;)

                              

I love a good debate

Iain
NZ

I like off topic..... stuff like jokes from Tiger or good news from those like Yellow Jacket and his accomplishments

political tangents? not so much  :P

although there have been many times I wanted to tell you (insert your political affiliation here) where to stick it.... I have refrained.... politics is not what the ROV is about

type type.. backspace delete ... right Tiger?

Yeah, nothing is truly foolproof.

Quote from: Night Vision on March 22, 2012, 10:47:43 PM
type type.. backspace delete ... right Tiger? 

Damn straight mon ami... 8)

What makes your dislike of certain topics more important than other peoples enjoyment of them? This post offends me more than the infamous other one that "someone" got deleted.
If one member has a beef with another, then this is a great place for it to be aired and resolved.  The language may have been a little agressive for some but the messages are still valid.  I do want to know about trading problems and make up my mind who or who not to deal with.
As for politics it bores me rigid.  Do I care who runs the banking system in some foreign country? No! Do I care that the US Government blew up the twin towers to start an illegal oil war in some foreign country? No! But I defend anyones right to let others know, and for that matter to show bare breasts of either gender whenever they please.  I am not harmed by seeing such things, and neither is anyone else.
I cannot abide censorship - it is symptomatic of a diseased society.   If you don't like what you see then take your toys and run home to mummy.

The direction this thread took just proves my first comment

QuotePolitics are such a part of our daily lives in subtle and not so subtle ways, it may be difficult to completely eradicate even here in our little community. We are a microcosm of society at large and bring our personal beliefs with us when we log on.

There's been some very interesting points brought up. I especially identified with dcsob's post and BTW I wouldn't call you a cynic but rather a realist. You're only a cynic to those who disagree with you.  :D Tiger makes a good point. There is a button for reporting distastefull content to the moderator. However, some here may have the ear of the administrator so certain gripes will carry more weight. It's just politics. And like Iain, I enjoy a good debate. Like Roro, I dislike censorship. But certain debates - namely political and religious - eventually bore me too. You'll never convince your opponent to change his view and you're more likely to encounter zealots in these two areans above all others. With no censorship sometimes I'm going to see something I don't like. Free speech is a double edged sword. As if there is actually free speech, free countries or free forums for that matter. Ultimately someone has final say regarding permissible content.

Some censorship is unavoidable and common sense is it's best alternative e.g if an inflammatory remark got you booted off one site, why would you think it was OK here? Maybe it was designed to elicit a particular response? Don't know or care but it seemed a tad over the top for an open forum comment. Maybe that thread and this are not related but their timing suggests otherwise. While it may be titillating to watch members air their dirty laundry I hope that and political debate don't become the norm here.

   Roro,  I will be 60 years old in May. The things that I was taught 50 years ago no longer apply.  Shut up and be newturd, or they will call you a trouble maker,  a couple more generaltions of people going thru, you wont know the place.   Socicalism will work much better, till the OTHER GUYS money runs out.

 I'm wondering where all the folks who have not added their 2 bits are standing!!!
      Ken S. :-[ 

Ron's almost never here (that i ever see) and sold his Vision a few years ago, i don't think he even talks to any of us anymore.. not me anyway. i don't think he has much interest, but knows we appreciate this site.

I don't really care what political party you believe in ( your entitled to your opinion) I think there  both abominable.  (and I'm entitled to my opinion.).

Quote from: Rick G on March 24, 2012, 12:12:43 AM
I don't really care what political party you believe in ( your entitled to your opinion) I think there  both abominable.  (and I'm entitled to my opinion.).

i second that

 I vote for Rick G

Iain
NZ

I'll jump in with my opinion.  Personally, I find people's opinions entertaining and have chuckled some reading them.  Sometimes the threads remind me of some head butting that you see at a family gathering.  Regardless of the topic, there are civil and uncivil ways to communicate disagreement.   

I have always viewed the "off topic" section as a wide open forum area.  It's actually the section I read the least and I often drop by the forum without even viewing that section.  There have been times where I've wished that some of the off topic discussions that end up the other sections would have been placed in the "off topic" area.

This is a great forum.  I seldom comment but read the forum couple of times a week.  And when I have a RJ problem coming to this forum is quite helpful and reassuring.  Interestingly, if you read the old forum archives there was some entertaining head butting going on back then.

I'm fine on whatever the consensus is.  I'm not easily offended, but it's worth mentioning that we all have a choice on how civil we will be in our communication, regardless of the topic.  Perhaps a little reflection is in order before hitting the post button.

VFan   

There are plenty of political web sites out there if one want's to partisapate, this one is suppose to be for our old relic motorcycles, blaming one side or the other, and theres plenty of blame to go around, for all the probblems they have caused just pisses people off, Lucky is right I think we would, my opinion only, be better served keeping the stories around our experiences with the motorcycles and keep the politics to ourselves.

One Ducati site I belong to will not allow any political discussion no matter how friendly and gets removed because it always pisses someone off.

  Ken G.

Motoracer8 +1

If there is a rule about only talking about XZ550s, then it's a bit like inviting people round for dinner and only talking about babies.  Yetch! What a bore.  I regard you guys as my friends (although in a strangely disconnected way since I have met few of you), and hearing about your lives, loves, politics and troubles is all part of that friendship.
When people come round here for dinner some of them say things about jews and catholics and homosexuality and conservatives that strike a nerve with me as a jew brought up as a catholic by gay kiddie fiddling left wing priests, but I don't throw them out of my house or tell them to shut up.  I embrace the differences and enjoy the stimulation of people that think differently than I.
Didn't a whole bunch get together and help support Lucky so he didn't have to sell his bike a while back? That wouldn't have happened if we only talked about bikes?
If there was nothing to read about here that jet sizes for BD34 carbs I'd have been out of here years ago

What are the odds of having   gay kiddie fiddling left wing priests around for dinner ?

Iain
NZ

Quote from: iain on March 25, 2012, 05:23:06 AM
What are the odds of having   gay kiddie fiddling left wing priests around for dinner ?

Iain
NZ

Um... you've never been to Tennessee?


I'm starting to think that what i posted is asking too many people to agree.. too idealistic.. guess i should have seen that comming.  some of you obvously enjoy talking about politics & religon.  those with strong viewpoints are inevitably going to offer those opinions. some will debate it, some will take offense, some will watch quietly from the sidelines, and some will escalate....  aparently we incapable of agreement?

Quote from: Lucky on March 25, 2012, 08:14:40 AM
....  apparently we are incapable of agreement?

Not really Lucky...we have, as a group, agreed to disagree :o ::) ;D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D... ;)

I have read all the posts here and here is my (somewhat) final take...

We have, for many years, proved that we can all coexist here on the ROV, without any real  censorship. It is really a case of not directly/indirectly trying to offend/hurt others who come on here. Like any 'family', we will have the occasional rift...but in most cases, this can be quickly resolved. I believe that being civil and courteous to others about what we post, will carry us through for many, many more years... LONG LIVE THE ROV ... 8)

                 

Hey,  start to here... really good family discussion.  It is healthy for all.  The dialog is great!

Monkey Fist has my ZX and I follow it that way.  Still have an interest in the proceedings..

This is really a "down to earth forum".    I cannot stay away.

akvision

Quote from: dcsob on March 22, 2012, 08:23:00 PM
Hell with it, I'll weigh in.
It used to be you could talk politics even to the point of blows then calm down and shake hands, till the next save the world session be it over coffee or a few (well more than a few) beers.
Being heavily involved in college I didn't really notice it becoming taboo. Once out of school, it seemed if you took a view that didn't mesh with the group think of the crowd you were cast out as a pariah, unclean, leprous, and obviously mentally defective (Democrat/Republican) insert your favorite bully boy here.
Those who try to see both sides of the argument are baffled by the lack of common sense, and the ability of either side to not see the turd in the punch bowl. And for the love of God don't have a memory longer than 90 days because if you bring up something Joe politician said a year earlier you must have made it up from whole cloth.
So here we sit, divided over the most esoteric of issues while the politicians in the gleaming halls of Oz posture in front of the cameras for the benefit?? of the masses. In my observations, once a politician gets to the big house they treat you like the stuff you scrape off your shoe, unless of course you can donate larger amounts to the reelection fund.  When the camera shuts down they go out to drinks and dinner, because lawyers are taught to argue their point vehemently, yet not take it personally.
As was pointed out earlier in the post. The unwashed masses, end up taking it personally, then dislike/hate the other. And in doing so are blinded. We fiddle while the country burns around us.
Label me a cynic if you will. A Tshirt says it all,  I used to get mad, now I'm just amused.

^ That exactly. 

On a more personal note, I love debating politics and religion, and have had very spirited discussions with friends and family, and really anyone who can appreciate the dialogue.  As such, I have learned to let a lot of things go.  Someone trying to tune a carb in the tech talk forum is no place to start a gas price debate, even if someone is asking for it.  I come here to read about my bike, and like that most post are met with 60% on topic discussions and 40% pleasant familiarity only found on a close knit forum where many people have known each other for a long time.  That being said, the off topic area for me is about jokes and debates.  If it either makes me laugh or makes me think, I'm all for it. 

It is important to remember that even the most different among us is still 99% the same, we all want to be safe, happy, healthy, better life for our kids, we all work, ride, eat, breathe and we all hate pooping in a public toilet. 

As a final thought, freedom of speech is as much a right as it is a responsibility. 

First of all, I confess I am with the fellows that don't typically hang out in the "off topic" section.  I think I may have looked at the topics once or twice and it just doesn't ring my bell.  I enjoy the tech side of ROV and have never been one for much social chat (the general topic is social enough for me).  I have been with ROV for over 12 years and have seen it become more of a social site than a technical site (read the old board posts for the distinct historic flavour).  I admit it gets a bit annoying when threads get hijacked by idle chatter on occasion, but it is often entertaining as well, so not a real problem.

Now going to an "Off Topic" section was no doubt done to respond to the need for more social interaction on a broader variety of topics.  With that move, inevitably comes the results of what can/has happened (of which I am oblivous).  This is where most sites have to use a moderator (playground supervisor) to enforce some rules or other disciplinary measure (which we all need whether we realize it, or want it).

I'm okay with the Off Topic section as it does not change my view of anyone nor does it polarize me from anyone, because I really don't go there.  If it does, then I would suggest staying out of the Off Topic section or toughening the rules to prevent people from poisoning the nice atmosphere we all breath on ROV. I appreciate the fact that someome (Lucky & others) care enough to bring this discussion up to remind all of us about the simple pleasures/privileges that may be lost if discretion (which some fail to develop over their lifetime) fails to prevail.  This is good food for thought and a fair warning.

Thank-you all for the grace you each extend to me,

Narcissist, THIS thread had nothing to do with you.
The engine in my wifes bike went into my sons bike, he was ready to ride first, the engine you brought went into my wifes bike.  WTF difference is it to you what engine in my shop goes where? what business is it of yours?

Quote from: Lucky on April 12, 2012, 11:13:53 PM
THIS thread had nothing to do with you.

I'm calling "Bullshit" on this statement Lucky - you posted this thread not ten seconds after being called to question about a certain transaction.   

Whoever of the two of you was in the wrong should confess, apologise and let us get on with our scheduled viewing.

BOTH of you should apologise for the name calling - this is unnecessary for men of advanced years and more suitable for contentants on Big Brother

go reread my original post, this is about politics, & it wasnt right after bobby posted that. if bobby & I have a beef, that affects us, ultimatly, no one cares but us, when you guys start arguing politics that gets the whole board riled up.

and just so others reading this later understand, i'm not calling Cdnlouis a narcissist, there was another post by bobby after that, that he has now removed.

QuoteWhoever of the two of you was in the wrong should confess, apologise and let us get on with our scheduled viewing

Both parties feel they're in the right so I doubt either will offer an apology. They may have to agree to disagree. :)

I'm more intrigued by this ominous sounding comment. :o  Well, the warning seemed ominous, the grace part just confusing  :)

QuoteThis is good food for thought and a fair warning.  Thank-you all for the grace you each extend to me,

What you did with what I gave you is your business, when you claim to have bought it for your wife is a lie and that pisses me off. You did not buy the bike and you knew that I expressly delivered it to you for your son. You have been on my ass every single time you thought you could make me look bad or appear to be lying. It's kind of hard to catch me in a lie when you are the one who tells so many that you can't keep them straight.

Quote from: Lucky on April 12, 2012, 11:13:53 PM
Narcissist, THIS thread had nothing to do with you.
The engine in my wifes bike went into my sons bike, he was ready to ride first, the engine you brought went into my wifes bike.  WTF difference is it to you what engine in my shop goes where? what business is it of yours?

BDC

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BDC