Cylinder head gasket

[PwrManDan]

Hi All,

After the whole sheared off drainbolt thread; everything is put back together and tightened down to specs.

http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=14348.0

Before I even got the Vision to run I started to get a leak around the front cylinder head gasket.  Is this normal, does the engine need to warm up to kind of set things in place or am I just not a good backyard mechanic?

I really don't want to tear down, but don't know what choice I have. 

[Rikugun]

I would think it shouldn't be leaking.  :-\ You used new gaskets right? What's leaking, oil or coolant? Not that it matters really, both are bad but I'm curious.....  ???

Did you have both cylinders and heads off and which is leaking?

[PwrManDan]

I did use new gaskets.

Coolant is leaking from the front cylinder, which is the only one I tore down.

[fret not]

Where on the front cylinder is the leak?  (important to be specific)

Did you use the old head gasket or a new one?  If new, is it OEM or aftermarket?  Did you use any sealant coating on the gasket?

Did you carefully follow the torque settings, and bring the bolts up to torque gradually?  (in steps, going around the recommended tightening pattern)

Isw there any possibility of foreign matter being between any of the mating surfaces?

[PwrManDan]

As best as I can tell the leak is at the very front of the cylinder.  The drip in the picture is where I suspect it to be, or at the very corner closest to the camera.

I used a Versah branded kit that was still in the package.

On the base gasket I used that Gaskacinch, but on the cylinder head gasket, I read somewhere on here to use only a thin coat of grease, so no sealant at all.

I carefully followed, step by step, checked, double checked and re-checked my double check. 

All mating surfaces were meticulously cleaned, I take a very long time to think about what I am doing and get help whenever I am not sure from you guys before I pull the trigger.  I am at a loss.

[Rikugun]

I would not have used grease on a head gasket. Usually they go on dry unless the manufacturer calls for a specific sealant at a specific spot. Having said that it seems unusual there would be a static leak with no pressure applied. I wonder if the dowel in that corner got cocked slightly and isn't allowing the head to seat fully? Is that corner the stud that carries oil to the top end? If so did you replace the rubber dowel gasket with the correct size seal?

Some guys here have had these apart many times and probably have some good suggestions but I'd think it's going to have to come apart again. I can't imagine it getting better by itself.  Sorry for the setback but don't get discouraged.  :)

[PwrManDan]

I am not sure I would call it static, because I was trying to turn it over until I discovered the leak, but I don't know how much it takes to develope the pressure.

It is the opposite corner that carriers the oil to the top end, but was replaced the the proper seal (according to Versah kit anyway).

Well I guess I can only get better at it.

So how do I get the grease off of the gasket, or just kinda wipe it the best I can?

Thanks for the help guys, I really do appreciate it.

[Rick G]

You may have an o  ring missing . They go over the dowel pin and are quite tall , not like a standard O ring. In any event it will have to come apart!  Sorry!

[Rikugun]

I am not sure I would call it static, because I was trying to turn it over until I discovered the leak, but I don't know how much it takes to develope the pressure. Interesting, does the leak stop when you stop cranking the engine over?

It is the opposite corner that carriers the oil to the top end, but was replaced the the proper seal (according to Versah kit anyway). My thought re the O ring was it was too big and keeping the surfaces from meeting as they should but apparently I'm mistaken about the oil galley location... I thought it was the left front stud that carried the oil? Well anyway, the dowel comment still applies.  :)  It looks like coolant running down the corner and from the center. Are there 2 locations or is it running from one to the other? Is this a replacement cylinder but the original head or both replacements? Perhaps the mating surfaces are not flat/warped?

So how do I get the grease off of the gasket, or just kinda wipe it the best I can?  That's a good question. I guess wipe it as best as you can? I'm a little leery to suggest a solvent but maybe a little contact cleaner on the rag. The gasket is impregnated with a sealant that activates over several heating/cooling cycles adding additional sealing. The grease will keep it from ever gluing itself to the surfaces. Cleaning it with too much solvent may also have a negative effect on the glue. Most gaskets on the bike are this way and that may be why some suggest grease on the stator cover gasket. That way they can easily remove and reuse it when the stator dies again.

[PwrManDan]

I am not sure I would call it static, because I was trying to turn it over until I discovered the leak, but I don't know how much it takes to develop the pressure. Interesting, does the leak stop when you stop cranking the engine over?
It drips but does eventually stop

It is the opposite corner that carriers the oil to the top end, but was replaced the the proper seal (according to Versah kit anyway). My thought re the O ring was it was too big and keeping the surfaces from meeting as they should but apparently I'm mistaken about the oil galley location... I thought it was the left front stud that carried the oil? Well anyway, the dowel comment still applies.  :)  It looks like coolant running down the corner and from the center. Are there 2 locations or is it running from one to the other? Is this a replacement cylinder but the original head or both replacements? Perhaps the mating surfaces are not flat/warped?

I couldn't be sure, but it appears to me that the leak started at the right bottom corner and rolled down the edge of the cylinder. 

This is a replacement cylinder, with the piston that came with it.  I do not have a real scientific way of knowing if the surfaces are true.  The closest thing I have to a straight edge is a lottery ticket, lol....but I do want to buy a real deal straight edge.

So how do I get the grease off of the gasket, or just kinda wipe it the best I can?  That's a good question. I guess wipe it as best as you can? I'm a little leery to suggest a solvent but maybe a little contact cleaner on the rag. The gasket is impregnated with a sealant that activates over several heating/cooling cycles adding additional sealing. The grease will keep it from ever gluing itself to the surfaces. Cleaning it with too much solvent may also have a negative effect on the glue. Most gaskets on the bike are this way and that may be why some suggest grease on the stator cover gasket. That way they can easily remove and reuse it when the stator dies again.

I may have read too much into the grease on the gasket and just assumed all gaskets, I see your point and glad you can see where I may have got mixed up.  I would have been searching for days to figure out what led me that direction.

[PwrManDan]

picture 1 is wide shot
picture 2 is side view of dowel and that tall o-ring.
picture 3 is another side view with better view of mating surface.

[PwrManDan]

picture 4 shows where the gasket did stick.  Ultimately destroyed upon removal.
picture 5 more of the mating surfaces
picture 6 shows coolant without any oil in it.  Now when I drained the oil, it showed signs of coolant in the oil, but I have only made one change since I put a hole in the old cylinder.  I want to believe badly that a couple more changes will take care of this.  There were zero signs of coolant in the exhaust tubes.  They were both clean and dry.

[Rikugun]

Thanks for posting more pics. There was some confusion regarding where the coolant was emanating from. This is partially my fault as I assumed from the picture it started near the left front stud - although a drip can also be seen in the center of the head as well. More on that later...  Apparently it was near the front right and running along the seam of the head gasket? Just so we're on the same page - left and right is referenced as seated on the bike. If it was leaking out from the area around the right stud, it probably was leaking in as well. In which case it would run down the chain tunnel into the crankcase so good idea to change the oil.  ;)

As far as why it was leaking, my first guess is the dowels not seating fully in the head and/or cylinder keeping the assembly from developing the required clamping force. Another is the fasteners were not torqued sufficiently. Another may be the surfaces are not smooth/flat. You may try to use the blade (on edge) from a combination square. While not necessarily precision ground they are inexpensive, readily available and more accurate than a lottery ticket.  ;D 

Speaking of clamping forces, is that a broken 6mm bolt I see in the front of the cylinder? There appeared to be a drip under the casting for that bolt but then again it also may have travelled from elsewhere. A little late now but it would have been helpfull to know for sure where it was coming from so you can focus your attention on that area.

That's about all I can think of. Maybe somebody else has additional ideas?

[pullshocks]

Just curious...what quantity of leakage was going on?  A few drops?  A stream?

[PwrManDan]

Thanks for posting more pics. There was some confusion regarding where the coolant was emanating from. This is partially my fault as I assumed from the picture it started near the left front stud - although a drip can also be seen in the center of the head as well. More on that later...  Apparently it was near the front right and running along the seam of the head gasket?
That is what I think anyway

Just so we're on the same page - left and right is referenced as seated on the bike.
Thanks for clarifying that, I wouldn't have known
If it was leaking out from the area around the right stud, it probably was leaking in as well. In which case it would run down the chain tunnel into the crankcase so good idea to change the oil.  ;)

As far as why it was leaking, my first guess is the dowels not seating fully in the head and/or cylinder keeping the assembly from developing the required clamping force. Another is the fasteners were not torqued sufficiently. Another may be the surfaces are not smooth/flat. You may try to use the blade (on edge) from a combination square. While not necessarily precision ground they are inexpensive, readily available and more accurate than a lottery ticket.  ;D 

Speaking of clamping forces, is that a broken 6mm bolt I see in the front of the cylinder? There appeared to be a drip under the casting for that bolt but then again it also may have travelled from elsewhere. A little late now but it would have been helpfull to know for sure where it was coming from so you can focus your attention on that area.
In the front of the cylinder I just thought that was a funky locating pin.  There is no bolt head.  If there is supposed to be more thana total of 6 bolts that hold this thing together, i've got a little problem.

That's about all I can think of. Maybe somebody else has additional ideas?

[PwrManDan]

Just curious...what quantity of leakage was going on?  A few drops?  A stream?

It was more of like a drip...drip....drip drip drip....not a stream at all.

[Rikugun]

I would think even one drip is too many  :( 

Regarding what looks like a broken bolt at the front of the cylinder is apparently not. I don't know what that casting is for. There is a corresponding one on the head but no bolt. If I'm not mistaken there is also a hole in the gasket at that location too.

[PwrManDan]

Well guys, it's mostly all back together and it doens't leak....at least from the gaskets.  I did find however a cracked hose joint on the cylinder where the chrome tubes go from the pump to the engine.  I do have a spare one of those so I think I will be ok as long as I can get the bolts out without too much trouble.

I took part of the invoice picture in Jim's post about getting gaskets made from Cometic, called them up and about a week later I had two sets of gaskets.  I didn't have to get two sets, but I figure I got a single set for the price of one oem gasket you can find anywhere on the bay.  Thanks Jim!

What looked like a broken bolt was a piece of asphalt!  I dug and dug and dug to get everything out of that casting I could and out cam a lot of sand?  I can't figure out for the life of my why there is a hole there.  The oem gaskets do in fact have a hole where that casting is, but the cometic gaskets do not; that is how I figured it would be ok to grab whatever the heck it was in that hole and pull it out with a pair of pliers.

The oil seems to be looking like normal now after the second chance but not sure how many more times I should change it.

Both cylinders seem to be firing fine.  Just need to go through all the nuts and bolts, do the rear brake bar, get the plastics back on, and find someone to help me get it out of the basement for it's first date with the road since I have had it.

[QBS]

Excellent progress!  You appear to have dug yourself out of a deep hole.

[Jimustanguitar]

I took part of the invoice picture in Jim's post about getting gaskets made from Cometic, called them up and about a week later I had two sets of gaskets.  I didn't have to get two sets, but I figure I got a single set for the price of one oem gasket you can find anywhere on the bay.  Thanks Jim!

Happy to have helped. I was quite discouraged when I found out that I needed head gaskets that weren't readily available. After searching the forum to find the Cometic suggestion, and after calling them and getting the parts, I knew I had to share.

Did they have any trouble with the part numbers, or did it work just right? If there is a new number or anything, please post it to the parts section!