Due to an oil leak, I filled oil. I believe that I overfilled it, for when I think of it, the bike was probably at the worst possible position, a little lower rear and right side. Anyway my rear valve cover gasket started to leak. Since it is only 600 miles since my valves was done, I hoped and gave it a chance. With an ordinary open-end wrench.
I hated doing it without a torque wrench, but I turned the rear left side bolt about 30 degrees to as much as I dared. The counterforce increased gradually, and I moved on to right side. I turned it 15 degrees, but the counterforce was the same all the way and I believe that it was less than what I ended with in the first one. I was shaky. It could be that I have compressed the gasket, and it was on that side the leak was biggest. So I gave it 15 degrees more. The counterforce was stable until it vanished. So now I am heading home by bus. I'll have to take my Eurovan and pick up the bike next time I go up north.
Right now, I am in fact at a ferry with WiFi access. I just had to get it off my mind.
Some years ago, when Internet was in it's own early childhood, a buddy of mine showed up at my office. He just had to tell me that yesterday he had seen an internet-broadcast of a concert 400 miles away, by a band from our hometown. He had showed it to his wife, but she just replied: Stamp sized picture and tin-can sound – what is the fuzz about. Now he was in desperate need of someone that understood the reason for his fascination. Now I am in desperate need of someone that understands the agony, the challenge and the zen of wrenching bikes. For sharing with those who knows, understand and loves the same is important.
But I also have some questions.
Any particular things to be aware of when pig-dicking these bolts? (In Norwegian, the tool you use to get stuck bolts out after the centre hole is drilled is called pig-dick (to me of obvious reasons).)
I guess that I do this at the same time as I do my swing arm (In another thread I have asked for experiences concerning a on-its-way-to-be-rickety swing arm bolt). Anything else that should be done or looked after when I have good access and my beloved one is wide open?
Obviously I have to order new gaskets, and at least one bolt.
Regarding gasket: OEM or something else? Only one or both. Are there differences between front and rear valve cover gaskets?
Regarding bolts: OEM or will anything work? New or used? Should I replace them all?
Anything else to buy and/or do when tings are like they are...
The bolt is probably fine , you just pulled the threads out of the head. You will need a product , that is called in North America , a heli-coil . There are several types of thread replacement kits available here, and I suspect in Europe too. You may be able to do this repair with the engine in the frame. I always coat with a product called "Gask-a cinch" its a amber coloured product similar to rubber cement in appearance. It rubs off with a little effort if the gasket must be reused.
Don't blame your self , previous owners/mechanics all had a hand in this failure. I own a heli coil kit in 6 mm , you never know when it will be needed! ;D
By the way i would have ridden it home , just checked the oil level every now and again.
ok, I'm having a hard time understanding which bolt you stripped.... or is that just a general question?
as far as the valve cover bolts.... I didn't use a torque wrench on any of them I've done and have no leaks....
the valve cover bolts have a rubber washer and I just alternated the pattern until they were obviously not going any tighter.... I can't imagine fitting a torque wrench in there, so I used my torque wrist....
speaking of 6mm heli coils.... that's a winter project someday on my left case..... there's where someone should have used a torque wrench :P
I'm sure we can all an sympathize with your frustraition. Anyone who has ever worked on motorcycles has their horror stories of broken this and stripped that. One of my personal favorites is when tiny parts drop into an alternative paralle universe right before my eyes, never to be seen again.
IMO one of the things that makes the ROV Forum very special among the many bike related forums and boards on the net is the high level decorum that we maintain amongst ourselves. I have yet to see flames or any other type of attack on one another here. Our mutual respect for each other is obvious.
For the most part, our language is also kept within the bounds of good taste. Surely you'll agree that some words are just obviously inapproriate when used in an open community made up of many unknown sensibilities. Certainly the F bomb is among them.
Dude thats fucked!
Er.
Bad!
Actually though, its not bad. Not even a little. Non critical, pretty easy to get to. The guys who make jb weld make a thread maker thats of the same compound. Those valve cover gaskets once they start leaking tend to stay leaking until either they're replaced or rtv'd into place.
Dont ask me how i know, but i've sealed oil containing compartments with stripped threads with rtv once.
those bolts for the valve covers. Are what I call. "STOP BOLTS". they just stop because the threads stop. SO, No sense in over tightening. Overfilling will not cause oil to come out the valve covers. Usually it shows in your air box. The last guy who did your valve adjust should have used some kind of sealer on the "moon" shaped ends. But the gaskets don't last forever. Heat and age cause them to dry out. And when removed for service ...leak a bit. So the leak may have been originally and age issue.
Quote from: QBS on May 27, 2008, 08:25:03 PM
I'm sure we can all an sympathize with your frustraition. Anyone who has ever worked on motorcycles has their horror stories of broken this and stripped that. One of my personal favorites is when tiny parts drop into an alternative paralle universe right before my eyes, never to be seen again.
IMO one of the things that makes the ROV Forum very special among the many bike related forums and boards on the net is the high level decorum that we maintain amongst ourselves. I have yet to see flames or any other type of attack one another here. Our mutual respect for each is obvious.
For the most part, our language is also kept within the bounds of good taste. Surely you'll agree that some words are just obviously inapproriate when used in an open community made up of many unknown sensibilities. Certainly the F bomb is among them.
Agreed. ROV forums is my start page on all my computers at home. Its rather uncomfortable to have my wife or children looking at my most frequntly viewed page and reading that. Please clean it up.
Thank You,
David
Air cooled engines are even harder on rubber gaskets. I have a750 Maxim in that needs two heli coils and a new gasket , the old one is as hard as a rock.
First: An apology for detonating the f-bomb. Being raised in a Norwegian blue collar society, learning English (not North-American) as a second language, it is sometimes hard to remember the big difference between private and public in North-America. In Scandinavia, swearing as idiomatic expressions is quite usual, even on national public radio and TV, and a way to express that goes well with a petrol head. Not an excuse, just an explanation. So thanks for correction.
Next: A thanks for the knowledge shared this far.
Then:
As many have guessed, the question concern one of the valve cover hex-bolts. And the question is: ???Do any bolt do the job?
The bolt actually snapped in the area where it enters the threads, leaving the hole in the valve cover wide open. Hence I have to pig-d** (I have no other words for it) it out. That is: I have to drill a hole in the centre of the bolt, put this coned reverse threaded tool into the top of the bolt and unscrew it. I guess that the threads are OK. When now knowing that the bolts are 'STOP BOLTS' as 'jasonm' call them, I guess that the one that snapped had been tightened all the way down and a little more already, while the other one were just almost all the way down.
Then another then:
The gasket: The leak is in rear of the engine, right above the manifolds. So it is likely that the heat from the manifolds could be the cause in combination with my joy over doing 10 000 rpm in 1st gear. ???Are front and rear gaskets the same gaskets? ???Are there anything else than OEM?
---
Besides - if the case were not that the bolt snapped at a friend's farmyard, less than 30 minutes before the last bus heading for my home passed by, I might would try to find a way to limp home...
it is kind of a different bolt, but for an emergency repair you could probably get away with a regular bolt & washers.
be careful using what you call a pig-dick. (known as an "easy out" here) they are hardened, & if they snap off in the bolt, you won't be able to drill them out.
i suspect that now that the pressure is off the threads of the bolt (because it's broken), & you remove the rest of the valve cover, you may be able to either just grab the threads with pliers if any threads still stick out & take the broken remains out, or carefully turn the threads out with a pin punch or small chisel & light hammer. a "reverse" or left handed drill bit would be the easy ticket if you have one available.
generally, you should be able to reuse the valve cover gasket. a coating or RTV sealer will help seal it.
Also, be careful when removing & reinsalling the cover. there are either 2 or 4 rubber 'plugs' under the valve cover (i forget how many) that ARE ONLY HELD IN BY THE VALVE COVER (NO SEALER OR GLUE). they seal oil passages & MUST be reinstalled!!
--Lucky
chin up pal..... it could always be worse..... thanks for adding a new word to my vocaubulary.... i say bastard a lot when referring to a file just cause it gives me a chance to be g-rated foul..... now.... pig dick will surely work its way into my daily usage... in fact om gonna go break a bolt so i can have a story to tell ;D
Quote from: Lucky on May 28, 2008, 08:43:19 AM
Also, be careful when removing & reinsalling the cover. there are either 2 or 4 rubber 'plugs' under the valve cover (i forget how many) that ARE ONLY HELD IN BY THE VALVE COVER (NO SEALER OR GLUE). they seal oil passages & MUST be reinstalled!!
YES! very important! There are plastic caps on the top of each cam tower.... one under each valve cover bolt...
I used some grease to "hold" them in place when putting the valve covers back on.... if the engine is out of the bike, this isn't a problem.... if you are doing a valve adjustment when the engine is in the bike, it's very easy to knock these out with the "half moons" on the gasket....
after the covers are back on, lift them up a little and look to make sure they are in place
I took the valve covers off one parts engine... (scrounging for shims) and a few were missing! who knows where they went :P
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm going to have a tough time not using the Norwegian term for e-z out from now on (only in private, of course).
My favorite definition is from a Peter Egan column on tools and their uses:
14. E-Z OUT BOLT AND STUD EXTRACTOR: A tool that snaps off in bolt holes
and is ten times harder than any known drill bit.Frank
Quote from: Lucky on May 28, 2008, 08:43:19 AM
it is kind of a different bolt, but for an emergency repair you could probably get away with a regular bolt & washers.
be careful using what you call a pig-dick. (known as an "easy out" here) they are hardened, & if they snap off in the bolt, you won't be able to drill them out.
i suspect that now that the pressure is off the threads of the bolt (because it's broken), & you remove the rest of the valve cover, you may be able to either just grab the threads with pliers if any threads still stick out & take the broken remains out, or carefully turn the threads out with a pin punch or small chisel & light hammer. a "reverse" or left handed drill bit would be the easy ticket if you have one available.
generally, you should be able to reuse the valve cover gasket. a coating or RTV sealer will help seal it.
Also, be careful when removing & reinsalling the cover. there are either 2 or 4 rubber 'plugs' under the valve cover (i forget how many) that ARE ONLY HELD IN BY THE VALVE COVER (NO SEALER OR GLUE). they seal oil passages & MUST be reinstalled!!
--Lucky
Quote from: Lucky on May 28, 2008, 08:43:19 AM
be careful using what you call a pig-dick.
The funny thing is, as soon as I read that I knew exactly what he was talking about and why... And no, I'm not going to tell you how I knew that...
Brian
My father built and serviced factory production equipment all his life, both at work and at home. I have been stroking my keyboard all my life. So I know my limits. My neighbour build and services factory production equipment, and when I have high-risk-mechanical work to do, my neighbour is happy to help me out. He says that I have to much knowledge in my head to be able to store anything tricky in my hands. Experiencing his work in his self constructed and welded snow blower and various other constructions. I have to agree.
I am going to let him pig-dick my bolt. If it then breaks, I know that it would have snapped 15 times id I did it.
...and I get a story to tell: The one when my snowblowerproducing neighbour broke the pig-dick.
You grew up on a farm, right?
Quote from: Brian Moffet on May 29, 2008, 12:34:22 PM
Quote from: Lucky on May 28, 2008, 08:43:19 AM
be careful using what you call a pig-dick.
The funny thing is, as soon as I read that I knew exactly what he was talking about and why... And no, I'm not going to tell you how I knew that...
Brian
Nope. I've driven by farms... I've only seen pigs from a distance...
Brian
I know another trick:
if there are any threads left sticking out, tack weld another bolt to whats left of the stud & turn it out.
I suspect though, once you get the valve cover off, you'll be able to turn whats left out without too much trouble. possably with the punch.chisel tip & a tap hammer. it's not a high heat, high stress item, & is under constant lubrication...
--Lucky
Now, she is up and running again.
The bolt snapped due to the stress between the threads and the head. Hence it was quite loose in the threads. After little while of downwards drilling (inside a bushing), I reversed the drill, and the snapped bolt came out.
New gasket and new bolt from e-bay were added, and now we are back enjoying the roads.
Glad you got it worked out. How were the threads in the head?
For those types of problems, a reverse drill bit often works well - just like a normal bit. but it spins anti-clockwise. They are available from machine shop supply stores, welding supply stores & some better stocked hardware stores.
H2O
Ahem... :D :D
Quote from: Lucky on May 28, 2008, 08:43:19 AM
i suspect that now that the pressure is off the threads of the bolt (because it's broken), & you remove the rest of the valve cover, you may be able to either just grab the threads with pliers if any threads still stick out & take the broken remains out, or carefully turn the threads out with a pin punch or small chisel & light hammer. a "reverse" or left handed drill bit would be the easy ticket if you have one available.
I thought you had mentioned the reverse bit, Lucky. ;D Just figured I'd add where they tend to be available - at least in the US. May not be the same in Norway.
H2O
Quote from: Lucky on June 18, 2008, 02:21:39 PM
Ahem... :D :D
Quote from: Lucky on May 28, 2008, 08:43:19 AM
i suspect that now that the pressure is off the threads of the bolt (because it's broken), & you remove the rest of the valve cover, you may be able to either just grab the threads with pliers if any threads still stick out & take the broken remains out, or carefully turn the threads out with a pin punch or small chisel & light hammer. a "reverse" or left handed drill bit would be the easy ticket if you have one available.
give that man a donut
Mmmm...dounuts....guguuguugu....+