I'm going to move forward with some caliper testing on my '82. I did this with my Zephyr 750 a few years ago. You cross reference a model that uses the same brake calipers/pads, then find a more popular model where some machines caliper adapters for better brakes.
I see we share brakes with the RZ350 so I started there. A guy on ebay makes adapters to use R1/R6 "spot" calipers and that should be a nice upgrade over the single pot. I emailed him to see if he would let me buy a right side only and test. There's a ton of Yamaha's from the period that use these single pot calipers and can't stop.
People make adapters in Australia to support early R1 rotors with the spot caliper adapters as well. I think that would be too much for a single brake rotor w/o a fork brace, but a possibility for the 83's I think.
I'll let you guys know the progress.
Ok, Here's my plan
I'm going to stick with the left side single brake and see how it does. I already detect twisting on the forks when braking now with the wimpy brake caliper so I ordered a fork brace.
Then I ordered the left side brake adapter from Tony at TDRRZ.com
The calipers that work are the blue dots from the R6 and the gold dots from the R1. I went with the R6 because they use the stainless pistons. The gold ones use aluminum and I think service intervals would be more frequent on aluminum.
So here's the costs:
Adapter from Tony at TDRRZ.com- $75
R6 Brake caliper from ebay- $46 (nice used, cheaper can be had)
Tarozzi fork brace from fast from the past.com- $111.75
So that's what I have going now. I'll do some calculations on the master cylinder piston to see if it can pump these calipers. And hopefully my existing Galfer SS brake line will work.
I have the single adapter from TDR (left side, also working on an '82) and am working the upgrade too. What I forgot to ask him at TDR is if the combination of adapter and R6 caliper is sized for the standard Yamaha single rotor or matches the diameter of the R1 or R6 drilled rotor? Having the more modern drilled rotor would be nice. If the rotor is larger, all the better for a single disk application. I'm a fan of a large single disk vs the smaller dual disk since it results in less unsprung weight. Any idea on applicable rotor size with the upgrade?
QuoteI'll do some calculations on the master cylinder piston to see if it can pump these calipers.
Having done some master cylinder and caliper swapping I'm interested in how this works too. Do you know the caliper piston(s) diameters? I'd like to plug those numbers into my spreadsheet and see where they land. Will you be keeping the 1/2" master?
Here is a link to the information for selecting a compatible master cylinder.
http://www.vintagebrake.com/mastercylinder.htm
I read they're (2) 27mm and (2) 30 mm. I think that comes out to 2577 or something like that. I'm not sure what the best M/C piston is for a single 4 piston caliper though. I have read that a FZ1 master works well with them. I happen to have on on-hand from another project and will try it. These are the ones that look the same as the Vision- black rectangular body as opposed to the separate plastic cup so it will look natural on it.
I believe the stock M/C if it is indeed 1/2" should be in the range, but I'm not exactly sure what the ratio should be for a 4 piston single caliper exactly.
Quote from: vintage bikeworks on August 18, 2016, 10:37:51 AM
I have the single adapter from TDR (left side, also working on an '82) and am working the upgrade too. What I forgot to ask him at TDR is if the combination of adapter and R6 caliper is sized for the standard Yamaha single rotor or matches the diameter of the R1 or R6 drilled rotor? Having the more modern drilled rotor would be nice. If the rotor is larger, all the better for a single disk application. I'm a fan of a large single disk vs the smaller dual disk since it results in less unsprung weight. Any idea on applicable rotor size with the upgrade?
It's for the stock rotor. There's a guy in Australia making them for the early R1 rotor. I will say my Buell Cyclone with the large single rotor brakes outstanding and will stoppie. But the forks are much, much than beefier the Vision (43mm) and it comes standard with a fork brace. I can feel the forks torque when I brake now and the stock brake has the power of a 1980 Huffy bicycle.
I'd love to go large rotors and adapters perhaps with dual rotors.
Tony just emailed me and has kits now listed for the left, right, and both on Ebay. Here's the one I ordered:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Caliper-Adapter-Yamaha-Maxim-Vision-Seca-XT-600-R1-Brakes-Left-side-/282141298108?vxp=mtr&hash=item41b0ee8dbc
I think this is going to help the other Yamaha guys that share our problem that own Secas, Virago's and Maxims.
watching this thread with interest. After putting a 83 front end on my 82 some years back I was disappointed with the results.I was still using the 82 master cylinder,if that is the difference.Picked up a pair of dual piston nissin calipers cheap.Might try to adapt them on.
I have an '02 Yamaha FZ1 and can report the caliper fits the adapter and stock rotor on the Vision. I verified part numbers and any FZ1 from 2001-2005 are the same. (first gen. FZ1) Clearance between the caliper and wheel is close at .090" but at least I didn't have to modify anything. Reports from another member who used an R6 caliper were that he had to modify (remove material from?) the caliper for an acceptable clearance. My only concern is the contact area between the pads and the rotor. The pad does not contact the rotor to the outer edge. Maybe it's acceptable? Maybe this combination was designed for the smaller '83 Vision rotor? I will try to apply some layout dye to the rotor to show actual contact area and report back...
Couldn't find my layout blue...Grease will do... Contact area of caliper/pad combination shown. You can also see where the stock caliper and pad contacted the rotor. Now thinking original design of adapter/caliper combo was for a dual (smaller) disk setup.
Yes the adapters are really designed for the RZ350 with the smaller twin rotors and by extension the '83. The 82 Vision has the larger rotor as we know, but the mounting boss on the fork is shaped differently than the other twin caliper forks. The lowed boss is kicked out a bit. Did you try it out? If the rotor has partial coverage, but the bike stops better it can be a life saver literally.
I've been looking at the grease on that rotor like it's a Rorschach test. The coverage is not 100% optimal and possibly drilling holes in different places on the mount could get better rotor coverage. However I searched a bunch on automotive wear patterns on disk rotors and found plenty of instances where there's similar bands of non coverage. Mostly from Nissan on the 370Z and Murano. So the proof will be in how it stops and move forward. It's not too bad considering it's for a completely different model and wouldn't have been available commercially if it was just for a '82 Vision
Had a chance to try the caliper/rotor combination. I still have the stock brake line in use since I was waiting to install a braided line with the brake modification. Nevertheless, braking is substantially better than with the single piston stock caliper. What is surprising is the overall feel and ability to modulate pressure is good. I haven't done the master cylinder piston to caliper piston area math yet but it must not be too far off with this setup. With a braided steel line, feel will no doubt be even better. The stock single piston setup was marginal and borderline unsafe. This current setup is definitely more confidence inspiring. Will follow up after the braided line install...
Great news! I was checking old posts here and front rotors for the 98-03 R6 an R1 Rotors should bolt up. So if the stock rotors wear with a weird pattern, I just picked up a pair of used R6 rotors on ebay for 45 bucks with 5.5 mm of thickness. So those 2 rotors should last my lifetime.
I've been driving my Vision more and have gotten faster on it and agree 100% about the brakes- it's unsafe at this point. So this is very encouraging.
Quote from: vl5150 on August 18, 2016, 07:45:51 PM
Yes the adapters are really designed for the RZ350 with the smaller twin rotors and by extension the '83. The 82 Vision has the larger rotor as we know, but the mounting boss on the fork is shaped differently than the other twin caliper forks. The lowed boss is kicked out a bit.
Ahh! The '82's different fork leg (caliper mounting boss) makes sense now as I had to remove a small amount of material on the adapter to move it far enough in for the bolts to line up. Having the fork leg from an '83 might provide enough tilt of the caliper to improve pad to rotor contact. Maybe I'll look for an '83 leg at next seal replacement?
My thoughts on the '83 lower..
It may be a mixed result. The single rotor on the '82 is larger to give you more leverage to stop. The '83 has a small rotor, but two of them so it probably equates to more swept area overall. If you find a lower fork tube from the '83 you'll need to get the smaller rotor and then only have one of them.
Has anyone tried two left hand US82 lowers and rotors with 83 calipers?
Obviously the mudguard mount would need to be filed off, and a little machining for the axle... but doesn't look too hard.
I'll pay postage if someone wants to send me a couple of lowers and rotors - I'd give it a crack. You can't get them here
I was looking at my forks and thinking the same thing. I found a picture of a universal fork mounted to a fork brake.
I guess the only reason to do this is if you want to keep the trailing axle though, correct?
Installed an HEL brake line today. Keeping it simple to blend in with the bike... No fancy outer covering, just straight black with crimped ends covered in black and stainless banjo fitting bolts. Braking action has taken another step forward with the addition of the line. Lever travel is reduced. Where the stock setup allowed for 2/3 travel back to the grip, it now only moves 1/3 to 1/2 way back. I can now lock the front wheel, yet brake is progressive under severe braking. Next plan is to look for a R6 or R1 rotor. Due to the increased braking power and resulting heat, I think the setup would benefit from a modern, floating style rotor. Overall, very happy with the outcome... :)
Outstanding news on the brakes. It should work much better with the floating rotor. I know mine rotor drags a bit on the brake pads in some places so the floater should do the trick. I love the Galfer wave rotors and had one on my ZRX, but I'll stick with the used ones for the Vision to keep it in the best the "bang for the buck" range.
On another note I was looking at the fork lowers that share the same diameter tubes as the Vision and I came up with the '82 Seca 550 as the only other model that shares the fork seals. So theoretically those lowers will bolt on, but alias that model only has a single caliper and it's on the left side- another dead end. Yamaha screwed the pooch by skimping on the suspension and brakes on the Vision. We're here 34 years later trying to re-engineer it, lol.
Yes, I think I lucked out on the FZ1 caliper and stock master cylinder combination. I was cautious the first time out...Didn't want to get thrown over the handlebars if somehow the two didn't work together. vl5150, Let us know how your setup works out...
I will! Tony, who we bought the brake adapter from, is very knowledgeable and has been racing 2 stroke Yamaha's for decades. We talked about 45 mins on the phone and since I had a R5, RD350, and RD400 so we shared some of the same interests as "smoke heads". He said he was pretty sure our stock master cylinder would work find and he was right! I'm going to try the FZ1 master just because it's newer and the on my Vision one has a funky feel to it. I'll probably rebuild the stock one and keep it as a spare just in case.
So for me, I have lots of packages on the way and that will take longer than actually doing the job itself. I'll report back when it's done.
OK Phase I complete. Any by that Phase I happens to be whatever box showed up on my doorstep today which in this case was the Tarozzi fork brace.
I put my old brakes back on and installed the fork brace in about a minute. I think this is the most ugly fork brace I've ever bought since I'm used to beautiful CNC machined billet aluminum and this one is cast. It also have some equally as ugly flat black stoving finish on it out of the box. But I don't care. I'm more about the performance of the part than anything else. It's very precise for a casting and fit absolutely perfectly.
I absolutely love the lips on the top of the tubes that allow it to rest on top of the fork slider- a nice touch.
I went for a ride with the allen key in my pocket to do the gradual tighten up and I'm impressed with the results. I've bought plenty of fork braces for other bikes and really didn't notice the difference so it was more show than go. Well if there was ever a bike that needed one it's the Vision. Dramatic improvement in handling and braking. My front end would do an annoying twist to the right when braking and this is improved quite a bit. Not as good as twin disks, but close.
So I'm confident that the forks are now up to the task of handling the new caliper. Over and out.
2 thumbs up on the fork brace. I would go so far as to say it's mandatory with any brake upgrade. I have a Telefix.
I had my camera taking pics of my install today and when I went to take the memory card out, it wasn't there. I'll take some pics tomorrow, but this is what I did today.
List of items
1. 2007 FZ1 master Cylinder
2. 2001 R6 Brake Rotor
3. 2007 R6 brake caliper (blue spot)
4. TDR RZ350 brake adapter
5. M10 washers
6. R6 brake pads (not yet received)
Bike has S.S. brake line and fork brace already installed.
Install
So the TDR brake caliper adapter is technically for a RZ350 with dual disks and the same caliper as the '82 Vision. The mounting boss on these bikes is shaped like a wavy letter M. Since the '82 single disk is not an exact match slight grinding is needed to the brake adapter in the middle of the M to allow the holes to line up. Literally took about 5 minutes. The R6 disk bolted right up. So far so good.
The FZ1 master cylinder is much like the stock one, but holds much more fluid. It has a mounting boss for the mirror, but it's not drilled and tapped. I'm running bar end mirrors so I slapped it on. Very nice piece. I crimped some flat connectors for the brake light switch. It now uses the standard flat brake light switch instead of the old round one.
I bolted up the TDR adapter with the stock bolts. I then ran to ACE hardware and picked up some bolts for the brake caliper and then bolted that on. The SS brake line had to be twisted a bit to work with the R6 caliper but I got it working. I quickly bench bled the M/C on the bike and reused the bolts and washers. I lucked out because I got pressure right away.
I did a quick check of the light switch, bolts, and clearance on the wheel and it all looked good. I had to re-use the existing used and worn brake pads for the test since my package of new pads is in transit. I had a bit of noise but the bike stopped better for sure.
So here's what I found after testing tonight. For me the brake caliper needed washers to be centered on the rotor. It was a bit too far to outboard and the inner pads weren't fully making contact. I added some M10 washers between the TDR adapter and the fork and that got it centered by moving the caliper closer to the wheel. My next test was much better but under hard braking I had another grinding noise. I noticed the outside edge of the rotor is making contact with the bottom of of the caliper. Not bad though. I got my Dremel and relieved the area on the caliper a slight bit to give the rotor clearance.
I stopped there tonight. So far so good though. The braking power increase is significant and the upgraded floating rotor brings the bike up to date. The TDR brake adapter isn't a perfect fit as we all know but is close enough to give us a fighting chance at this.
So the main thing is the washers to get the caliper centered and then relieving the roof of the inside of the caliper. If I didn't test with the worn out brake pads I wouldn't have noticed the clearance issue side to side. I'll take some pics tomorrow and post them up along with another test. Hopefully my new pads show up too.
Here's some pics.
My ugly but functional fork brace.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/922/CGehU5.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmCGehU5j)
FZ1 master cylinder fits right on with new connectors.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/921/7MoLtS.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pl7MoLtSj)
I had to grind the TDR mount a bit where I'm pointing to match up with our unique fork caliper mounting boss on the '82. Yamaha went though great pains to short us the dual disk in '82.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/922/AnVlCG.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmAnVlCGj)
My caliper was too far to the outside so I put one of these washers between the TDR adapter and the fork. Other reports had the caliper hitting the wheel so look down the rotor to make sure it's perfectly centered.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/923/dvGSBR.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pndvGSBRj)
The R6 floating cross drilled rotor brings updates the look and makes that cool sound when the pads run across it.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/922/oCQ0Im.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmoCQ0Imj)
This is where I'm at tonight. I relieved the area slightly where its shiny. The caliper is relieved there from the factory, bit I was getting a grinding noise under hard braking and think this is the spot. This is what I'm going to test tomorrow to see if this does the trick.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/924/aeU2sP.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/poaeU2sPj)
Try putting a little black paint in areas that you suspect might be tight. Go for test ride and then look for new shiny areas that used to be painted black.
I'm thinking with a few "tweaks" to the CAD drawing and milling machine, Tony at TDR could move the bottom mount hole aft about .050-.060". This would raise the aft side of the caliper, correct the interference between rotor and housing and improve the pad to rotor contact area. (Back to grease spot on rotor pic.) Maybe I'll call him to inquire?
I did go back and recheck the centering of the caliper in relation to the rotor. With the FZ1 caliper, it's pretty close. I measured .060" on outboard side between housing and rotor and .087" on the inboard side.
On mine I hit that shiny area with the dremel lightly after painting it black again and it's the place for sure. I get that area making slight noise only during very heavy braking. So I think I'm close to getting it perfected.
I agree on the hole placement. That should do it for us, but he may have to make that area a bit wider to accommodate moving the hole.
I accidentally put one of my pads on backwards and "resurfaced" my rotor. It did a good job lol! :o
A few impressions:
- It's interesting that brake calipers do flex under braking- even monobloc calipers
- These Yamaha brake calipers are some of the best I've worked with. The pad replacement is insanely fast and simple. A pin, locating plate, and 2 clips.
- I should have done before and after testing, but I'd rate the braking performance as significantly better with much better feel and shorter distances. It's not enough to let you do a stoppie, but close.
- The FZ1 master cylinder works well with excellent feel and that great adjustable lever.
I'll hit that area with the dremel again when my brake pads come in, but for now it's workable as-is. Here's a few pics in the daylight.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/921/gjZEm3.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/plgjZEm3j)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/921/Ac11VM.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/plAc11VMj)
Nice! Like the floating, drilled rotor. Bonus points for the "cool noise" when braking!
Here's my recap in a pic of my specific actions needed.
Is the FZ1 master piston 16mm?
Yes, it's 16mm. With the large single disk it's in the ball park of good, but more towards the wooden side.
Thanks, I wondered about that.
The new Galfer brake pads finally arrived today and slapped them in and did some riding to bed them in. My analysis: With the FZ1 master cylinder the braking power is immense compared to stock, but with a similar feel to the stock lever because of the 16mm master cylinder bore. So it it a bit on the wooden side like stock, but you actually stop. For me, I'm happy with it and will keep it because my FZ1 master cylinder is like new and it has the adjustable lever and I brought it in closer to the grip. I should have done this a long time ago.
Nice going. I'm thinking you're in the high 12's as far as piston ratios are concerned? I'm guessing you could have been a bit more aggressive using that opposing piston caliper but you can't argue with results. :) Going to the adjustable lever can really change the feel by putting your fingers in a more advantageous position.
Just as a followup on this..My brake pads have fully broken in and I'd rating braking now as excellent. Possibly a bit better than my Buell Cyclone in absolute power, but with a bit less feel. Much better than my '84 Nighthawk with twin rotors. I'd rate the stock brakes I had running with the Galfer SS brake line as "marginal".
Follow up to the follow up...
I recently re-did the brake caliper on my Buell Cyclone and I had to go up to a 16mm master cylinder from a 12.7 so I traded with the Vision.
Reducing to this size gives it better feel and is less wooden. The 99-2002 Buell's have genuine Nissan master cylinders and work with the Vision as long as the blade connectors are used for the front brake. The mirror thread is M10x1.25 RHT.