My bike has been running for a couple of days now but it would not return to idle after warming up. It just rev'd perpetually at 3-4k rpm. I removed my YICS and this solved the problem i.e. vacuum leak. My question now is how do I repair this thing? I have tried once. I cut it in half with a razor, filled the groove and any holes on the rim with JB weld, sanded both sides flat and smooth, coated both sides with Red RTV and put a gasket between them. It was sealed when I tested it before putting it on the bike. Now, it looks like the pressure from the engine has pushed a bunch of the RTV out of the seam. How can I keep this from happening again?
tben,
have a looksie here
http://www.xz550.com/YICS.html
and here:
http://ridersofvision.net/forum/zindex.php?topic=7463.0
thanks Kwells,
I've read both of those, my only problem is the Red RTV not bonding to the repair so it got spit out by the pressure. I was just wondering how to fix this. I think I'll try "The Right Stuff" that Permatex makes.
:) You have to make sure both sides are clean...use a solvent like brake and part's cleaner...apply Red RTV, put the two pieces together and clamp together, or, lay on a flat surface and put a book on top...Leave for 24 hour's in a warm area to cure before installing on the Vision.
8).......TIGER....... 8)
I used mineral spirits to clean it, not brake cleaner. maybe thats my problem. ??? Other than that I did just what you wrote.
mineral spirits will actually ADD oil
I use RTV for very little. In engines its a liability . As far as the Yiks box is concerned, I use no gasket , I did on the first couple , but decieded it wasen't necessary . I get them smooth on a piece of sandpaper, taped to piece of plate glass or masionite. sanding them in a figure 8 pattern. When I'm satisfied with the fit of the two halves togeather, I apply a thin coat of Yamabond / Hondabond / 3 bond , your choice there all the same . Reassemble the box and allow to dry over night.
Mine's been together for 5 years and has caused no trouble.
Yes YAMABOND 4. never heard of #3. Or use JB- qwik weld. Either way the box held together with the stock screws to help things seal.
Jason , I wasn't refering to Yamabond as # 3 I was refering to 3bond brand of sealer . I've heard that 3bond makes the stuff for Honda and Yamaha.
Threebond 1104 is all I've ever been able to locate around here. Honda & Yamaha dealers here don't carry their #4 product in stock, but can order it. (If the EPA hasn't made them stop production / import yet).
H2O
Or you could use that time to fabricate a metal YICS chamber, like many have done on the site. No future cracking problems.
Wouldn't that be nice, but it takes tools I don't have access to and skills I've never learned. ::)
Speaking of YICS Fix, Lucky, your YICS is now sealed up tight. ;D
David
I've got 5 years & 10,000 miles on my repaired one (so far)! If you really take your time to do it right, the repair should last a good, long time.
H2O
I repaired mine in 2002 or 03 and its never given any further problem.
I prefer to coat both halves (properly cleaned and squared off with sandpaper so surfaces mate well) with J.B. weld and then forget about it forever. I have 20,000 kms. and 7 years on this repair, rock solid. There is no need to ever want to take them apart again. Coat the JB weld down into the inside with a light layer and then on the outside as well, smoothing it all off like the original (insurance).
Keep it as simple as possible and you improve your odds of success,
:( Please note: I may have spoken too soon. Aug 08 discovered JB epoxy has burned through :-X. At least as good as the original, but not good enough! So I would recommend one of the other techniques, this time I went to the gasket.
If you're using permatex, let it cure a long long time. It wont be squeezed out if it's cured. If its not it'll flow all over.
Funny this should be brought up today cause I was just about to do it myself. I have twice used permatex, Red then Black. Both times sanding very carefully and this last time cleaning everything with brake fluid. Both times my seal has failed between the chambers after about 30 min of running.
I want this to work! For both of those runnings the bike ran better than it did with the connections just plugged of at the engine.
Cdnlouie: JB weld is my next bet. Thanks for the tip
Inane: I let it cure for over 24 hours in my house at 70ish degrees. Could it possibly need more than that?
That should be enough.
The reason it failed the second time is because you used brake fluid :P brake fluid is glycol = oil. Use brake kleen, xylene should fix you up good.
;D ;D ;D ;D. you caught my typo. I meant Brake Cleaner that sprays from a can and evaporates almost immediately. I may be new to this but I'm not that new. ;)
Lol ok i was a bit worried ;D (its like you said you were looking for a non flammable cleaner, so you used gasoline :o)
Thats odd it wont stick still. Can you tell if theres still a film between the pieces and it still seals or does it blow the joint out totally?
Its just a small leak but enough to through everything off ::). I just pulled it apart and couldn't see any visible damage, I think it just didn't stick well enough this time. I'm about to JB weld it and I'll post how that works out.
I'm surprised that some have had luck using silicone....because it stick to ANYTING dirty or oily. Proper prep is the best to use anything. I personally used 5min Epoxy. I've had issues with JB Weld combined with vibration and fuel (not with the YICS, but other projects). If it works for you then you won't have to do it again.
the first time I did the repair, I used JB weld.. did not last.
second time I used the gasket (Lucky's site) and permatex red high temp RTV... so far it's held so I did another like that also.... we'll see.
what you need is two of them in case one blows so you don't have down time.... they're not that expensive for the "crummy ones" (blistered chrome)....
I let them age at least a week.... not much air circulation in there
I cut mine apart with a hacksaw. Because it had developed a massive internal leak. Fixed with permatex cold weld. Think JB weld but with a 5 minute dry time vs. the 24 hrs JB requires. It is also much thicker in consistency which makes the setup and sealing easier.
As far as I'm concerned , the only thing to seal a YIKS box with is Yamabond /Hondabond / 3 bond , the silver sealer used for centre cases. I used a gasket on the first one I did , but it seemed over kill. Three bond seals like there was no tomorrow , is fuel and oil proof and is not in the least vibration sensitive.
My JB weld failed after a few hours of run time with a small internal leak. I'll be hunting down threebond next and give that a try.
Each man learns to master his own technique, but whatever you use, make sure the YICS is very clean. Wash everything in something like "paint thinner," not the varsol base type, but the "tear the oils out of you skin" type (carb cleaner is not bad either), to strip the oils in the plastic.
Then if you use JB Weld or another epoxy, coat the inside with a layer down the sides of where the joint is going to be sealed to give you a better seal, as well as coat the outside with another thin layer all around the outside edge. You can end up with a new layer about 1 inch wide around the inside and outside. That was my approach and I've got 7 years and over 15,000 kms on this repair.
There are some pretty good techniques described here, but getting it right sometimes takes a bit of practice.
;D
Well, I'm hopping 4th times the charm. ;D The last two times I used nearly a whole can of brake cleaner to degrease the beast but I'll be searching my local hardware store for something else this time.
Brake cleaner is too mild, and I forgot to mention that you need to sand the surface to rough it up and give the epoxy or sealant something to bite into. It's a good idea to sand around the inside and outside (scuff it up well) if you are using the epoxy and it ain't going anywhere. Proper preparation is the key here.
Grit your teeth when you do it this time! ;D
I didn't remove any of the carbon inside the YIKS box. After cutting it apart , I used a sheet of 180 grit sand paper taped to a piece of Masonite and sanded it 100 % level . I applied the 3 bond and screwed it shut , let it cure for 3 or 4 days and reinstalled it. No trouble since on any I've done.
You know Rick, that 3 bond is probably one of the best sealers. I'm with you on that one. A darn good idea. Letting it cure is the plan.
;D
Quote from: tben on March 25, 2008, 02:22:30 PM
Well, I'm hopping 4th times the charm. ;D The last two times I used nearly a whole can of brake cleaner to degrease the beast but I'll be searching my local hardware store for something else this time.
Brake cleaner is absolutely useless at cleaning the inside of the YICS. I have just done it with both brake cleaner and carb cleaner on two YICS I have here.
I cleaned the first one with carb cleaner and had dirty brown liquid still coming out after two of three rinses.
I used brake cleaner on my second YICS and had crustal clear cleaner drain out. I then used some carb cleaner on it and had dirty brown liquid drain out. Unfortunately I've run out of carb cleaner so was only able to do one chamber.
I've now opened it and it is very evident which side was cleaned with carb cleaner or brake cleaner.
In my experience (and quite a few other ROV members) the YICS is a waste of time on our XZ's. My bike is very happy without it.
We are still awaiting definitive evidence from a dynometer, with and without YICS, to see what, if any, difference it makes.
Personally I would save your time and your pennies by investing in some vacuum caps
if the YICS really does act as some type of "boost bottle", why not put empty CO2 cartridges on the ends of the hoses. Drill the ends out and polish them, and I think they'd be easy to mount - should just fit right in the hoses.
That might be a good solution and if it works let the forum in on your success. Several members have tried custom chambers from various materials i.e. copper tubing etc. Apparently the YICS has different volume chambers front and rear so I don't know how much effect that may have with matched CO2 cartidges.
I read your other post and my understanding is removing the leaky one helped the running issues but not completely. My guess is a non leaking YICS or DIY substitute (by itself0 will not fix the remaining fueling issues.
I hope to fix the remaining problems by ultrasonically cleaning and installing an 83 carb and going through all the diagnostic steps to eliminate vacuum leaks and synching them. The CO2 cartridge suggestion was just from an idea based on the lurking I've been doing for the last week or so. Reading about 10 kinds of glue on that two-piece plastic vacuum housing was getting a little old.
Yes many methods have been used to resurrect the YICS and some have proven to be temporary fixes. I removed mine early on as a diagnostic aid. I always thought I'd go back and try to repair it but there were always more pressing issues. I did eventually dig it out but upon close examination it's in pretty sad condition. By then the bike's various issues had been worked through and it was running pretty good so I never bothered to pursue the YICS any further.
Some claim noticeable fueling improvements with the YICS but I doubt I'll ever mess with the OEM unit. IF I ever did anything it would more likely be the approach you're taking with alternate materials to make a custom unit.
OK, I went to THE engineering source on this "cylinder swirl" thing, non other than Kevin Cameron of Cycle World fame. I'm not kidding. (Not only couldn't I write like Kevin does below, I have a hard time understanding it!) Here's my question and his response. (I apologize for the snarkiness part of my question concerning the Vision)..
Kevin,
Back in the late '70s - early '80s it seemed like getting a so-called "swirl" of air/fuel into the combustion chamber was all the rage. Suzuki had its TSCC (Twin Swirl Combustion Chamber), and not to be outdone Yamaha's system had this unfortunate acronym: Y.I.C.S. (Yamaha Induction Control System). The purpose, as advertised, was to achieve more efficient burning resulting in (trumpets please) "more power and greater fuel economy!"
As memory serves the Yamaha Vision version of Y.I.C.S. was a cheap plastic dual chamber connected by hoses to the intake side of the cylinder heads. Kind of like little Johnny's ninth grade science project.
To my knowledge these systems went the way of the anti-dive fork. Where these just marketing ploys or was there solid science lurking somewhere?
Thank you,
Steve Klose
Steve,
Whatever systems those two companies developed in that period, they did not save Suzuki from their decision to shorten the GSX-R750's stroke to 44.7-mm for 1988, with resulting reduced performance, as attested by their return to the previous longer 48.7 stroke. Yamaha, too, had combustion trouble, for the production FZR750 needed a tremendous 45-degrees BTDC ignition timing to burn its wide but vertically very thin 5-valve combustion chamber (I still have the rubber cast). The longer combustion takes, the more heat is lost from the hot combustion gas to the surrounding metal surfaces, and the more torque suffers.
This puzzled me, because Keith Duckworth had shown the world how to make short stroke, large-bore engines burn rapidly and efficiently, through intake-generated charge tumble. Duckworth's revolutionary DFV F1 engine of 1967 fired at 27-degrees BTDC.
What I must assume is that only the appearance of Duckworth's new paradigm (a steep intake downdraft angle) was applied to Japanese sports engines of the 1980s, but without achieving the effect.
When I asked Claudio Domenicali at Ducati about this, he replied, "Obviously I cannot speak for the Japanese case, but here, we have specific tests by which we develop the necessary degree of combustion speed."
He went on to say that they had used the same basic tool pioneered by Harry Ricardo in his 1920s turbulence research - an in-cylinder anemometer (today this may be supplemented or replaced by CFD ((Computational Fluid Dynamics? -Steve)) ). By varying the intake downdraft angle and intake velocity, the charge entering the cylinder could be made to flow across the head, down the far cylinder wall, back across the piston crown, and up the intake cylinder wall. As the piston rose on compression, this "tumble" pattern of rotation would first preserve the energy of intake air motion, then break up into a multitude of flame-speeding eddies as the piston neared TDC.
Japanese manufacturers soon rectified their mistakes to become masters, and their early approaches to the combustion problem went into the archives.
KC
I'm concluding from this that either, A) the YICS system is rubbish, or B) it was fine for the engines Yamaha was building in the '70s and '80s, but useless science today. Now, take your side and make your point.
Well, I guess I have to admit to being slightly disappointed...... I saw all that reading ahead of me and thought "Certainly, there must be an answer by the end. " Alas, only more questions! :D
I have to admire Claudio Domenicali's answer though "...but here, we have specific tests by which we develop the necessary degree of combustion speed." Is it me or does add nothing to the discussion!?
Interesting perspective and ultimately I could be satisfied with "I don't know."
First: KC is a hero of mine that I have greatly respected for long time.
Second: In the face of a non definitive position regarding our YICS questions, I must default to, YICS or not, the wonderful torque characteristics of the V engine prove that Yamaha definitely got the head design spot on. So much so as to render YICS application, in the overal scheme of things, a moot point.
Well, it was an entertaining read, wasn't it? I'm sticking with the system is low science. To that end I'm rebuilding my unit, so what do I know?
To boil or hammer? - that is the question. So I did both. Boiled it (did NOT submerge it, just down to the area where it joins), then hammered away with a dead blow hammer -- a lot. Finally came free. Oh, I also pumped 90 lbs of compressed air in there before it separated, and man, this thing visibly swelled! Don't know if that helped with the pieces coming apart, but it didn't hurt.
There is no "ridge" where the two chambers are separated, so I'm concluding that Yamaha was not TOO concerned about air seeping between the chambers. My unit was leaking internally but only slightly. So if your's has a weak internal leak I'm venturing it's not worth the effort. This looks like a waste of time but here I am. I'm going to bring these halves to my local "we can fabricate anything" shop and see what they say about making some up in metal. Economically, of course. --Steve
If you look carefully, you may find that the middle ridge has snapped off. On mine at least there was a definite ridge between sections - right up the middle.
Some people - (Lucky for one) believe that the plastic acts as a spring in the YICS. I don't buy that myself, but I've been wrong on more than one occasion. There are some groovy angles, so figured that milling an exact replica by hand would be time consuming. You can see my replacement YICS here
http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=13508.msg140852#msg140852
(http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=13508.msg140852#msg140852)
I'd think if they went to the trouble of partioning the unit it should be sealed between the two chambers? Steve, are there remnants of a ridge or glue? For that matter, how are the two halves sealed - is it glued or a heat weld process or ???
Since I've not seen inside my YICS, something I just noticed is the large "casting" where the rear cylinder hose connects. I guess this is responsible for that side having less volume than the front cylinder's chamber? If you add the volume of the longer (at least 2X) front hose to the front chamber's volume it makes the volume disparity between the two halves even greater. OR, Is the front chamber volume greater than the rear because the hose needs to be longer?
The "female" half has a definite groove in the middle divider and it's as clean as can be. If there ever was a "ridge" on the other half that fits into that groove there is no sign of it. The box was held together with glue. No glue on the divider, only the perimeter. Either there never was a ridge or this thing has been hacked into before, though I doubt it. There are NO signs of that. No pry marks, no hammer marks, no cut marks. There is a steel ring in the perimeter groove. Why? I have no idea. To keep the box from exploding? Your guess is as good as mine. --Steve
Hmmm, steel ring in the groove you say - now that is interesting......
It sounds like you've examined it closely and I trust your observations regarding the center seam etc. It does seem odd the 2 chambers are not sealed although this subjective opinion arises from an incomplete understanding of the designers intent.
Finished refurbishing my YICS box. Sealed it with Suzuki Bond (same as ThreeBond, black). Also known by it's scientific name, Elephant Snot, it's very hard to find this stuff today, but I've never used a better sealer. Passed the "blow" test anyway.
Couldn't stomach "YICS" inscribed on my Visioné, so I ground it off, painted it black, and found this $2 chrome "V" at my local AutoZone. For that matter, I'm grinding off everything that says "YAMAHA" or "YICS" on the bike. I want to pass it off as something exotic. Should be a lot of fun since so few riders remember the Vision these days. Getting "YAMAHA" removed from the gear case hub will be a challenge. --Steve
I've never been a fan of the tragically named YICS box and it's failings but must say I would proudly install something that looks that good. Nice work!
Quote from: turbosteve84 on March 18, 2015, 01:49:26 PM
Finished refurbishing my YICS box. Sealed it with Suzuki Bond (same as ThreeBond, black). Also known by it's scientific name, Elephant Snot, it's very hard to find this stuff today, but I've never used a better sealer. Passed the "blow" test anyway.
Couldn't stomach "YICS" inscribed on my Visioné, so I ground it off, painted it black, and found this $2 chrome "V" at my local AutoZone. For that matter, I'm grinding off everything that says "YAMAHA" or "YICS" on the bike. I want to pass it off as something exotic. Should be a lot of fun since so few riders remember the Vision these days. Getting "YAMAHA" removed from the gear case hub will be a challenge. --Steve
Nice Job Steve. I ended up making my own YICS as I couldn't get a good seal.
The YICS badges just ping off with a sharp blade. I can help you mill off the YAMAHA logos - I was going to do the same on my bike, perhaps leaving just the YAMAHA at the top of the radiator cowl. The plastic bit that hides the lower triple will be the hardest to do neatly because of the curve.
I'm not even re-installing any badges I don't need.
Thanks for the offer eliminating the YAMAHA logos -- but you're in New Zealand, I'm in New Jersey, and it's an awfully long swim.
With the case hub I may just fill it in with epoxy, sand it smooth, and re-paint the whole thing. On the small clutch cover plate (?) I used low-temp melting aluminum rod (melts with a propane torch!) But the sheen of the material is different, and you could still see the "YAMAHA." So I spray painted it with black caliper paint for now. Maybe I'll have VISIONÉ inscribed on it at some time. On the thermostat housing I couldn't build up enough heat to get the aluminum rod to stick (too much heat is drawn away by the housing). I'll just grind off that small plate that says YAMAHA. I removed that silly rubber YICS insert. Thought I could pry that plate off but it's bonded there really strong with some NASA-spec glue.
Snow here again tomorrow. Really setting my project back!
I'd like to find a way to eliminate the Yamaha logo behind the seat, any ideas? BDC
Quote from: turbosteve84 on February 04, 2015, 08:48:22 PM
The "female" half has a definite groove in the middle divider and it's as clean as can be. If there ever was a "ridge" on the other half that fits into that groove there is no sign of it. The box was held together with glue. No glue on the divider, only the perimeter. Either there never was a ridge or this thing has been hacked into before, though I doubt it. There are NO signs of that. No pry marks, no hammer marks, no cut marks. There is a steel ring in the perimeter groove. Why? I have no idea. To keep the box from exploding? Your guess is as good as mine. --Steve
I just opened one that appeared to have some cross leak. I found the center groove to have leakage from one side to the other and mine has a divider that fits into the groove. I cut part of the divider off when I opened the YICS. BDC
PS This is a box that worked fine but one of the hose connections got broken off.
I'm not using the seat (anybody need one?) or the stock tail piece so I'm not sure how you would remove that logo. I'll take a look at it (if I can find it!) and see if I can come up with any ideas.
That YICS box looks like shit -- but, you had a "tongue" on the divider, which my unit didn't. Strange, because I would swear that it was never opened before. I found absolutely no signs of stress to the box. It WAS leaking internally, and there WAS a groove where it should be. Just no tongue or sign of one. But being a realist it had to have been worked on at some point, and whoever bodged it shaved the tongue off clean (there was no sealant on the center divider). Whatever "glue" they used to seal it didn't work (at least not internally), so I hope I have better luck with my Suzuki Bond fix.
I dont know much about the YICS box operation but I can see that the tongue and groove on mine have never had glue on them. I know that this YICS box was working okay because it ran great when I synched the carbs. I also had leakage when blowing into one of the vacuun line fittings. I have another YICS box that has been worked on by some one trying to seal it up. Took it apart and I'm surprised by how different the tongue and groove are. The tongue appears to be almost non-existent and the groove is much narrower. The more I learn the less I know. Always thought we needed the YICS but now I'm not so sure. BDC
Quote from: Re-Vision on March 19, 2015, 02:55:40 PM
I'd like to find a way to eliminate the Yamaha logo behind the seat, any ideas? BDC
If you want to ditch the grab bars, then just leave it off and fill the voids with bog. I followed Lucky on this and thinks it looks pretty smart.
Otherwise, you can probably block sand the lettering off and spray the whole plastic bar with a rattle can.
There does seem to be quite a difference between individual YICS examples as to the dimensions of the center divider rib. Bobby's seems to be pronounced whereas on Steve's it's minimal.
I finally took mine apart for examination. The mounting tab had been compromised and a strengthening strap fashioned on the back (yics 2.jpg) affixed with glue and screws. The holes left by the screws can be seen at the red arrows (yics 1.jpg) on the inside. The "repair" was on the bike as received by me but If I had to guess I'd say the box itself has not been apart before.
There isn't much of a rib on this one and as I recall it leaked between the chambers - and possibly elsewhere. It was some time ago it was tested and set aside.
Edit: the third pic is a copy of Re-Visions from above. Is that the piece of rib that was cut off during disassembly or something else?
Quote from: Rikugun on March 20, 2015, 09:03:50 AM
There does seem to be quite a difference between individual YICS examples as to the dimensions of the center divider rib. Bobby's seems to be pronounced whereas on Steve's it's minimal.
I suspect the difference is caused by the tongue and groove being burned away.
Quote from: Rikugun on March 20, 2015, 09:03:50 AM
Edit: the third pic is a copy of Re-Visions from above. Is that the piece of rib that was cut off during disassembly or something else?
It is the piece of rib cut off during disassembly.
Pictures below compare low milage Vs higher milage YICS. BDC
QuoteI suspect the difference is caused by the tongue and groove being burned away.
Could be but two things concern me with that theory:
Mine only had 6,000 miles on it which doesn't seem like very many miles to get burned off and especially so evenly and completely. Of course that assumes the YICS installed when I got it is the original.
Also, why would only the rib be burned away but the groove appear to be intact?
Quote from: Rikugun on March 20, 2015, 02:29:18 PM
QuoteI suspect the difference is caused by the tongue and groove being burned away.
Could be but two things concern me with that theory:
Mine only had 6,000 miles on it which doesn't seem like very many miles to get burned off and especially so evenly and completely. Of course that assumes the YICS installed when I got it is the original.
Also, why would only the rib be burned away but the groove appear to be intact?
If you compare the grooves on the previous pictures you will see considerable differences between the grooves (2.48mm Vs 1.0mm), looks like escaping gases burned the groove bigger while burning the tongue away. BDC
I'm correcting myself, I criss crossed my YICS halves and it appears that the more prominent tongue also has the wider groove. Doesn't make sense to me. BDC
I wonder if there are several revisions to the YICS chamber much like there are several distinct '82 carb sets?
Quote from: Rikugun on March 20, 2015, 06:34:44 PM
I wonder if there are several revisions to the YICS chamber much like there are several distinct '82 carb sets?
Highly likely - it's such a dreadful design you can bet there was an astounding number of returns on the YICS even in the first year.