The numbers of the Beast

[Dynomite]

Hi Visionaries,

My first post... Firstly, a big thank you to the kind people that have written up the tech articles on the site. The TCI connector wiring diagram saved me a great deal of head scratching when I found somebody had used non-standard wires to the sensor coils.

Although I don't actually own a motorcycle, a few months ago I was looking around for a ~600cc V2 multivalve engine to dyno test and generate some output curves for a university project I am involved in, and one of the motorcycle dismantlers nearby donated a scruffy but complete 1983 XZ550 suffering from stator failure. After a bit of a hoon around on the bike we quickly dismantled it and fitted the engine to the dyno. Being a lover of oddball vehicles (1957 English Zephyr estate), I did feel a bit guilty tearing apart an otherwise perfectly good motorcycle that seemed just weird enough to have a cult following!

Today we put in a quick dyno run to make sure everything was OK and recorded max 49.6hp @ 8000rpm. Everything is standard at the moment except the exhaust, which is adapted to fit the engine cradle.

Some questions I am looking for answers to, maybe someone here knows the answers: What is the overall ratio between the crankshaft and the output shaft of the gearbox (before the bevel drive) when in top gear? It appears to be just under 2:1 by turning the shafts over and counting turns, but it would be more helpful to know the exact ratio.

Also, I have found two quoted power outputs, one at 64hp, the other at 50. Anyone know which is more correct?

Next week the plan is to convert to CDI ignition, then ditch the carbs and fit EFI to develop a fuel injection system that is currently in beta phase of development. Finally, later this year it will -time permitting- get a supercharger fitted. The data generated from the engine will eventually go towards developing a 90 degree V2 racecar engine based on a Ducati crank and Kawasaki heads.

Thanks for your help,
Dynomite.

[VisionMeister]

See primary ratios under the techtalk heading.
The higher hp number you quoted was probably a factory claimed hp measured at the crank. Most dyno tested numbers are reported at the rear wheel.
There have been some rear wheel dyno numbers reported on the forum.
 

[Coil Coyle]

Dynomite,
? ? ? ? ?Welcome to ROV. If you restored an engine to running condition you are a motorcyclist.
? ? ? ? You picked the right engine to learn with. It will make you a motorcycle rider if you are not very careful.

http://ridersofvision.net/forum/index.php?topic=3831.0 should answer your first question.

? ? ? ? The gearbox ratio's are on the spec sheet, http://www.ridersofvision.net/Technical/Road_Test/roadtest.html

;)
coil

[QBS]

Dmite: your talk of such projects and modifications is like throwing Grade A Choice to starving wolves.  Please keep going on your projects and keep us informed of all developments.  You picked an excellent engine to study.  The V is really tough and quite highly advanced technologicaly even now.  50 HP seems pretty realistic in stock form.  Thanks for introducing yourself.  Cheers.

[kiawrench]

Dyno-
 
      If you and your buds can get this engine to accept a new cdi and fuel injection, ECONOMICALLY, then you just made about 250  or so new best friends .
    the only two ares i know you will have problems are triggering ignition spark, and triggering the fuel injectors.

  Near as i could tell, the last time this was looked at, the cost would have been the real issue. good luck, keep us posted, and if it works, let us know the details and where to buy the parts for an upgrade.

   oh,, my V dyno tested at 57hp, 8000 rpm, but that is with US engine , tweaked to 650 by first owner, and the euro gears i put in ( thanks cycle world travel/demo team- and thanks to 101.5 wkzq radio )

[Tdub]

ElectroSport has made a CDI for the Vision, but I am not sure if they offer it for sale. Maybe they are waiting to hear if there is any interest. Tdub

[QBS]

Why is a Capacitor Discharge Ignition system more desirable than a Transistor Controlled Ignition system?  Cheers to all.

[Coil Coyle]

Quicker voltage rise- that makes it fire an oiled plug more often (two strokes).

Read Cameron on inductive current flow in the last few Cycle Worlds.

Basically, if you didn't put water in the mix or place your fuel nozzles right at the port entry, a well mixed and correct fuel air will light fast.
If the mix is hard to light, not having the inductive post-arc current might result in no ignition.

CDI= a strong hot spark, of very short duration. When you trigger the spark, the mix better be between the plug gap and ready to burn.

Hope this helps, :)
coil

[QBS]

As TCI is used in the V it will ignite to past 13k.  That would seem adiquate for our needs and probably those of Tdub as well.  CDI would seem to be attractive because it is different and really not much else.  Rarely do we need to fire through oil.  And if you do, you'll probably be walking soon anyway and it really won't matter.

[Tdub]

As TCI is used in the V it will ignite to past 13k.? That would seem adiquate for our needs and probably those of Tdub as well.?

Not entirely true. Add 200cc displacement and bump the compression to 13-1 and the TCI will not run past 9500 rpm. Tdub

[Dynomite]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for answering my questions.

Progress has hit a small hitch this week because all our stuff is locked up on the hardstand at the port. Customs are fumigating all the creepycrawlies and kangaroos we brought back from Australia after the race event.

We have -in there- an M&W two-channel CDI ignition unit that will be a very quick fit onto the V, so I will be able to quantify some of the discussion about whether CDI is of any value on a standard engine in a week or so. Essentially, the factory TCI module produces a falling edge signal (equivalent to points opening) which is exactly what the M&W unit requires as an input trigger. I will cut the wires to the coils, remove them and wire the TCI outputs to the new CDI unit. The CDI unit produces about 500V output pulses that are fed into 'coil-on-plug' transformers, which will hopefully fit down the holes onto the plugs.

This of course doesn't give the result most tuners are after, which is to make the advance curve adjustable, but for a quick back to back run, it should answer a question I have been wondering over for a while. Ultimately the fuel computer will control the timing.

If anyone is interested in making a CDI, they really don't need to be complicated. A small DC-DC converter/oscillator to take the 12V up to ~500V, a capacitor or two and switching elements (thyristors etc).  The advance curve (complicated bit) can be left in the factory unit. The old skool concept -the one that I will be using on the final development engine is to put a high voltage output winding inside the stator to charge the capacitors, instead of the DC-DC converter. Simple is good ;-)

Cheers,
Dynomite.

[QBS]

I think if one were to elongate the TCI trigger mounting holes one would then be able to easily reposition them into a more advanced location.  The rub would be in determining exactly how much advance was being achieved and making sure that both pick up coils were moved the exact same amount.  The latter issue could possibly be overcome by attaching the coils to some type of a mount that could in turn be positioned for advance as desired.

This a great thread.  Thank you to everyone that has contributed to it.  Cheers.

[Lucky]

if i remember right, the pick up coils are mounted on a solid plate aren't they?

[kiawrench]

hmm t dub making big progress,, lucky making big progress,, blake making everything,,(lol) vision website working at every log on,,,, has to be a sign from above



now it may be time to try designing those lowers for my fairing ,, lol 

[Extent]

IIRC the coils are mounted together, so it would just be a matter of sliding the whole mount plate along your elongated holes, but you'ld have to mangle the bracket a bit to get it in a different spot since it doubles as a hold down for the stator wires.  Wouldn't it be better to leave the pickups as a baseline and do all of your advance in the ECU though?

[Blake]

Essentially, the factory TCI module produces a falling edge signal (equivalent to points opening)

SWEET!


Exactly what i wanted to know!


Thanks! ;D


Blake

[Kiwi_XZ]

I think if one were to elongate the TCI trigger mounting holes one would then be able to easily reposition them into a more advanced location.

I was lead to believe by those in the the know that the best method for changing the timing on this system was to use a step key on the rotor to crankshaft keyway.  Haven't had to do this myself but I have seen them used on racing engines.

Cheers - Shane

[Blake]

You can easily change the timing by using a ignition unit that allows you to instead of having to mess with keys or repositioning of the sensor (which might weaken/distort the signal if you move its position relative to the trigger magnet(further, closer).   

Looking at Leather's ignition faq, he says  ignition advance is 10deg btdc and 38deg btdc at 4,000rpm.  with the advance maxed out at 38 degrees, the pickup should be somewhere about 5-10 degrees (thereabouts) before it (40-50deg BTDC let's say)..  so basically you can adjust the advance as much as you physically can within that limit (until you start to ping). using some sort of new ignition.



Blake

[Kiwi_XZ]

The use of stepped or offset keys has been around for many years as a method of advancing (or retarding) ignition timing without the need to fit or build another type of ignition system.  Offset flywheel keys are very common in kart racing with racers carring a selection to adjust the engine to the track. 

Basically, these machined keys replace the stock flywheel (rotor) key.  Sometimes they are marked in thousandths of an inch offset or are identified by degrees of offset (how many degrees of crank rotation they move the flywheel from the stock position).

The benefit over elongating the mounting holes for the sensors is the ability to make fine adjustment against a known stock position.

I am not promoting TCI over CDI or vice-versa, nor suggesting that there isn't a better ignition system out there, but in my (humble) opinion I suggest the best (and cheapest) method to alter ignition timing on the current stock engine would be with an offset key.

[Coil Coyle]

Dyno-
?
? ? ? If you and your buds can get this engine to accept a new cdi and fuel injection, ECONOMICALLY, then you just made about 250? or so new best friends .
? ? the only two ares i know you will have problems are triggering ignition spark, and triggering the fuel injectors.

? Near as i could tell, the last time this was looked at, the cost would have been the real issue. good luck, keep us posted, and if it works, let us know the details and where to buy the parts for an upgrade.

Kia,
? ? ? ? I watched and bid on Ebay for a month before winning auctions at these prices, shipping included:
? ? ? 2002 R1 Harness, ECU, R&R, Ignitor and relays? ? ? ?? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? $127.
? ? ? 2002 R1 Throttle Body and Harness? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?$92.
? ? ? 2002 R1 Coils, Harness and mount? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?$43.
? ? ? 2001 Air Box Intake Tubes (velocity stacks to us old farts)? ? ?? ?? ?? ?$11.
? ? ? The crank pickup signal is yet to be investigated? ? ? ? ? ?Total?? ? ?? ?$273.

2 spares are included, I will use 1/2 of the coil and injector driver circuits. The worst case would be R1 pickups on the Vision mount, best case the signals are interchangable ???
A fuel pump has not come low enough yet, I'm trying under $50.

Any of you car mechanics recomend an Inline fuel pump for injectors?99 R6 inline 32.50 on Ebay, thanks Dyno.
2003 R6 tank pump, $30.00. Thanks, Blake
Yamaha Cam Position sensor 2002 list $60.

coil