Riders Of Vision

Well I got these Visions as winter projects and I'm having a problem with accepting the stator weakness I'm reading about everywhere.  I'm thinking what good is a bike if you have to worry about the stator going out all the time- maybe the problem is over state? I guess I'll find out.  Has anyone tried a different Regulator/Rectifier to help reduce the stator failures.  I ran across discussions on using Cycle Electric R&R because they don't shunt the full current to ground but instead controls current flow a different way that reduces heating in the stator and increases stator reliability.  Anyone know about such a thing?  I think they make R&Rs for Harleys.  I might have to give them a call.

http://www.cycleelectricinc.com/RECTIFIER.html#CE-600

You might talk with those folks and find out if they know of any potential problems from fitting their stuff on other than an "American made V twin"  they are so proud to serve.  It sounds like they are on the right track.  There are some regulator/rectifiers that now come stock on some Japanese bikes that are made without the silicon chip diode but instead use a MOSFET (metal oxide semiconductor field effect transistor) system and run much cooler than the silicon type.  They can go bad as well as the old kind but reportedly much less often.  The MOSFET units I am aware of are made by the Shindengen company, same one that made most of the silicone RR units that came as stock equipment on many bikes.  The numbers stamped on the units using silicon chips start with SH and the MOSFET units start with FH.  The easiest to adapt to a Vision is the FH008 most often used on a CBR600RR '07 and later and a CBR1000RR '08 and later. 

The charging system is the alternator, regulator rectifier, and the battery.  If any one of those units gets weak it creates extra load on the other parts causing them to possibly fail.  So keep your wires and connections in good condition, your battery charged and healthy, and hopefully the rest of the system will provide many happy K miles for your Vision.

davexz, its really not that bad. IMHO the problem is a bit overstated because it is on of VERY few things that can actually STOP an XZ from performing regularly.

 :) I always say "its not if, but when your stator goes, when you own a Vision". I really don't think that Visions are any worse than a lot of bikes of the era...there are several with the same/similar/worse stator problems.

However, you are dealing with some variables here...

* A lot of times, Visions come to there new owners with a blown stator...Past owner had no idea why his battery kept draining...maybe just didn't really care...maybe just didn't want to shell out for a shop to fix it or had no time/patience/money to fix it themselves, etc, etc... :o ::)

One of the weak links with this area is the cheap, white, three block plastic connector. They have been known to melt...(generally because of lack of preventative maintenance)...and short out the stator. Either make sure the one on your Vision is:
* Clean of ANY corrosion/crud, etc and smeared with dielectric grease (or Vaseline)...
or
* Cut the connector out and replace it with a good quality system
or
* Use solder and heat shrink to hardwire in...Your choice!!

The R/R used on the Vision has been around for years & years...and has functioned well on many different rides. They will, eventually, go south at some point in time........You can either:...
* Go with the same type of unit
or
* Go for something like a MOSFET unit...again, your choice!!

The Vision NEEDS a well charged battery, in good condition. When your Vision comes to you with a battery of unknown age, change it out right away!!! It will save you some heart ache down the line.
Also check the condition of the two main wires coming from the battery...The battery to ground and the starter solenoid to starter...I change these out on ALL my rebuilds as a matter of course!! You can not do proper electrical testing on your Vision with a suspect/weak battery!!!

One of the things you must do, as a new Vision owner, is to disconnect EVERY wire connection on your Vision, clean them really well, smear them in dielectric grease and reconnect. If a connection is bad in some way, replace it immediately!!!

I do believe that regular oil changes help and I'm sure Luck's oil cooler mod will help...(things still to do, one day ;))

What you do to your Vision when you first acquire it, is critical. The right preparation before putting her on the road is vital to having a bad/good/great riding season...and really, when you think about it, this is no different whatever bike you own... ;)



                   

Thanks all for the feed back on my posts.  I do appreciate it.

 those mosfet r/r could be a possible solution to our short lived stators. I wonder if that is why motoracer8 has, so his stator case is so cool? 

Here is little more about the CE-602 R/R seems to make a lot of sense.  It only uses stator current when needed and doesn't shunt it to ground all the time.  They say all this makes your stator and R/R run cooler. Bingo? Maybe not but I think I'm heading that way for more info. 
http://www.metricthunder.com/img/install.pdf

What sort of price are they attaching to these RR units?  Sounds like it could be just about right electrically.

Quote from: davexz on December 13, 2010, 11:09:59 PM
Here is little more about the CE-602 R/R seems to make a lot of sense.  It only uses stator current when needed and doesn't shunt it to ground all the time.  They say all this makes your stator and R/R run cooler. Bingo? Maybe not but I think I'm heading that way for more info. 
http://www.metricthunder.com/img/install.pdf

Looks very promising. If you do go this way it'd be nice to hear your thoughts and experience with it. I've got another '83 and this may be the way to go for the redo. Less stator load should also equate to more usable power and bump in mpg.

Quote from: fret nut on December 14, 2010, 02:57:21 AM
What sort of price are they attaching to these RR units?  Sounds like it could be just about right electrically.

$188 + shipping... http://www.metricthunder.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=CE-602&Category_Code=

Inanecathode got a MOSFET for $25 off ebay! He reported back that it worked real well

QuoteInanecathode got a MOSFET for $25 off ebay! He reported back that it worked real well

His was from a CBR1000. Those and the unit from 600 have garnered much attention in Web forums and the Ebay prices reflect that. Prices are typically now in the $70-$100 range. Still a bargain when compare to new FETs purchased directly from Shindengen. You may also want to try Kaw ZX10/14 year?, Yam R1 >/= 07, FJR1300 >/=06. I recall reading about a Yamaha 4x4 quad that used a mosfet but don't remember the particulars. I can't guarantee these applications and advise to check for Shindengen part #'s with the FH prefix. I don't think you'll find anything prior to 2000 and most seem to be later than that.

Keep in mind some of these units will handle up to 50 amps (e.g. FH0014) - overkill for the Vision. They are physically large units and finding a place to mount it becomes more difficult. Also, some don't have pigtails but rather the harness plugs in directly. So if you want to solder your connections you will still need 5 female spade connectors at the R/R.

Last night I found that the MOSFET R/R units do not follow the same testing procedure as our older SCR type.  I followed the info on Lucky's test page and sent a couple back because I thought they didn't work, but now I find they may well have been good all along.   :-[          I was told the MOSFET replaces the diode in one direction and doesn't read the same when tested.  I still have a couple of them and will get them tested, so it looks like I might owe some apologies to the sellers.  Dang, I hate it when stuff like this happens.  Oh well, Life is good.

can you ask them for testing procedures for the Mosfet type so that we can provide this info to all?

That's a great point. I never thought about it but now that fret nut brings it up, it makes sense their different components and architecture will require different tests.

QuoteI might owe some apologies to the sellers

If those "sellers" you refer to are Ebay scrapyards or private individuals, might we find better testing info from factory manuals for bikes equipped with the MOSFT units? Just a thought.

I talked with a well regarded local shop and they don't have a test procedure for the MOSFET regulator rectifier units, they have to plug them into a bike and test to see if they work.  It is easy enough to test for charging rate at various RPM, with and without added loads, and that is what matters.

Today I rigged up some test leads to adapt the RR units to fit my SV650 (because the Vision isn't running yet) and all the RR units i have checked good!!!!! Charging rate of 14.1V at idle and all the way up the rev range.  Well, I'm red faced and feel a bit foolish over having argued a bit with a couple sellers but will make amends.  I am happy they work, so now I have one for my SV and one for my Vision.  The units I got are from Honda CBR600RR '07+ and CBR1000RR '08+.  The markings are FH008EE and FH008EB respectively.  Also saw one with FH008AA.  The differences are in the lengths of wires and configuration of plugs.  The EE and EB have only 5 wires, the AA unit has another wire which I'm not sure about but am told they all work.  The neat thing about the FH008 units is they have 2 pig tails just like the Vision unit so all you have to change are the connectors.

Most of the units I find on eBay are over priced but if you check often and keep looking you will eventually find one for $60 or less.  The fellow that wrote the instructional thread with pics on eviltwinsbk.com, goes by the handle D'Ecosse, told me he thought these units don't go bad, that he had not heard of one going bad.  He is also involved with a similar thread at the SVRIDERS site.

Now I have to get the stuff to make weather tight connections on all the wires so I can put all the plastic body parts and seat back on, the Vision is a bit easier to work on in that regard.  Yea Vision! :laugh:

 I read some of those posts, sound like people are digging the results of those r/r's  Can't wait to try one! I bet, the bike will feel free revs, from less drag of the charging system. And of course, the a stator might last more than 10,000 miles! Maybe the stator case will be cooler as a result

Question: What has the charging system got to do with freeing revs? Will the fly wheel become more free due to the more efficient changing of the magnetic field?

Nope, as long as the same strength magnet is rotating around the same mass of iron, the drag will be the same. Weren't any of you paying attention in Jr. High science?

Faraday's law was more like Sr High in the almost recent  past Walt

I guess things were different in the stone age.

I'll leap.... I'm getting (I think) what your saying about the given interaction of the magnets and the iron Walt. If I'm thinking right  :D... The factory Viz electric architecture shunts the balance of full stator output that is not used to charge or run lights, etc. The newer version RR's being discussed manage it more efficiently with only using what is needed = less load or electromagnetic drag... freer revs or as I read it faster revving engine?

Quoteless load or electromagnetic drag... freer revs or as I read it faster revving engine?

There may be something to this but It's not my area of expertise. Certainly, with older AC generator designs (field powered by Electra/mechanical regulator), the higher the charge rate the more drag. Later designs having permanent magnet AC alternator w/combined regulator/rectifiers are somewhat of a mystery.

No manufacturer has ever divulged the complete details on what lurks inside the epoxy filled housing. It is highly protected proprietary info (esp the FET designs) and published schematics are someones educated guess on how it might work.  If you've ever examined the factory diagram of the internals and thought it represented the components in their entirety, you would be mistaken.

As the magnet spins around the wire-wrapped iron stator, one assumes X amount of power is produced and subsequent electromagnetic resistance is realized. What if a R/R design had stator leg(s) opened or grounded as needed to control output? If the power was never generated, wouldn't this effect electromagnetic drag? This in contrast to the "constant stator output, then rectified and it's excess output shunted" theory.

Feel free to quote and argue my hypothesis but I won't respond.  :P It doesn't matter to me. There is sufficient anecdotal evidence that the mosfet design charges more- even at lower RPMs, while running cooler, and possibly extending stator life. I don't know about you guys, but that was sufficient reason for me to try it when the time came.  :)  The time came   :'(

When I put my bike together last spring, the stator was on it's way to black and crispy. It lasted til late September. As time permitted, I began my research for a new charging system. Some may have read my initial trouble sourcing a stator that fit. That's been rectified (pun intended) and I've also sourced a beautiful MOSFET R/R. I won't be able to report the results until spring but I'm feeling fairly confident about the mod. However, I don't expect my '82 Vision to rev like an '82 YZ125 as a result of the mod and therefore won't feel a difference in that respect. If you, on the other hand, think it will rev faster, you probably will feel a difference!

I did.  How do you think the starter works.  Current flowing in a coil of wire creates a magnetic field.  When you are charging it is resisting the permanent magnets.  If the current is turned off the resistance should be gone.  At least thats how I always thought, but maybe I'm wrong.  I have been before ;)

Just to make a little sense of my last post it was in response to Walt's earlier post about going to school.  I keep forgetting to go to page 2 of the posts. As far as the drag I bet there is some difference if it is a switcher design instead of a shunt but probably not enough to talk about.  I do have to go with the idea of the new transistor R&Rs running cooler though.  The charge duty cycle would be less, hence less current flow, hence less heat.  I won't know until I get one going this spring and drive awhile though,

I have an extra unit if anyone is interested.  They don't test with meters like the silicon units, and I was pursuing a "good" one instead of the "bad" ones I got, but after finally rigging up some test leads and actually putting them into a known functional system they all tested good much to my chagrin. :-[  Anyway, I have listed one in the Swap Shop.  It seems pretty cool watching the meter as the revs go from idle to 10,000 rpm and the digits on the meter stay the same with no fluctuation.  How do they do that?

Dave, the attraction of the rotating magnet in the flywheel to the ferrous core of the stator does not change appreciably regardless of whether or not current is being generated. BTW, 1 horsepower equals 746 watts. Multiply the Vision output of approx 22 amps and 14 volts and you get 308 watts. Racers will remove the stator for that 1/2 hp but most of us wouldn't notice. If you want to check for 'feel' with no output, just unplug the stator and go for a ride.

I agree, Walt, that it might be over stating that their may be less engine drag, but I still am going to try one as soon as I get around to it. Their must be something to it or the OEM's sure wouldn't go to the trouble of spec'n them on some new bikes.   I am very curious to "watch" that thing control the voltage!  This may be the kind of change, that makes  a crummy charging system liveable.

Not to throw mud in the water but if you have used a generator to power anything you have noticed that when you apply an electrical load the motor lugs down a bit and then recovers as the governor takes over and evens the RPM with the load.  The rotor is spinning near the stator as before the load was applied.  I think electrical load does make a difference in the drag on the motor.  It may not make a lot of difference in the long run, and it may be splitting hairs so to speak but electrical load is not the same thing as the the alternator spinning with no load.

Electrical load makes a difference whether you are drawing full load current like the Vision does or simply generating Voltage without a load. You would have to remove stator windings or magnets to have a zero electrical load.    BDC

I have 2 Mosfet R/R units. SINCE BOTH BY BIKES ARE RUNNING GOOD. Lazy me have not put them on my 'cycles yet. Mine are rated for 50 amps FH0012AA . Yet are larger than the Vision one ONE WAY BUT THE MOUNTING HOLES ARE THE SAME SPACING. I think they are for the New Vmax and R1. Brand new.I got a deal...less the $50 ea. Retail I think is 3 or 4 times that.  FYI, these do  not use the brown "sense wire".

Supervision, I use the standard Yamaha RR and Stator, the stator is the latest they offered, the plastic was a different color. I removed the OE connector and used a Bosch connector, alittle more robust than the standard one. I cut a piece of aluminum sheet about 4" square and put it between the RR and the battery box, a couple of flat washers between the plate and battery box for alittle more air circulation, made shure all grounds were clean and tight. I use a good quality AGM battery, I have a OE headlamp switch and leave the headlamp off most of the time.  I have over 30,000 miles on this set up with no issues.   

I think many charging issues with motorcycles are cheep poor quality batteries and not keeping them charged. Motorcycle batteries have a tough job, most of them are too small in capasity for the applaction, then add poor quality.

I have a 08 BMW thats on it's second battery, it's too small for the load and is of questionable quality, the charging system is fine.

   Ken

 Hey Ken thanks for the reply, so you leave your lite off ? when you ride?  Please note if your case gets hot when your lite is on.  I'M hep to all things to look for, and my case runs about 300.  I, do run a Napa off road lite, 100/130w, and of course, it's on, I have run about 10,000 mile per stator.  Also, my r/r has never failed, but I put a larger, Shadow one out in the breeze, and it has been hard wired, and plug wired, never mattered, cause is wasn't heating up at all.  My 60,000 mile engine is broken, at the moment, so soon I am changing to a new to me 12,000 (virgin) motor, boy am I excited, hope to finally meet you soon!  Maybe at Sears Point AHRMA 2011?

 Yes I leave the lights off most of the time, there is no headlamp on law in California, except some streches of  two lane hwy. I know it's a safety issue with many.  There is a bigger load on the system with the lights on, because at idle when I turn the lights on the idle speed will drop some.  I've never measured the temp of the cover but it's never been hot enough to boil water.  I do run the standard 55/60W lamp, I don't ride the Vision much at night.

   Ken

Quote from: motoracer8 on January 24, 2011, 11:23:29 AM
Yes I leave the lights off most of the time . . .

With the stock Vision charging circuit, leaving the lights off just delivers more current, and therefore heat, to the regulator/rectifier. It has no impact on the alternator, which continues to deliver full output all the time.

If you want to prevent alternator failure, you could disconnect one of the 3 alternator output leads at the same time you disconnect the headlight. FYI, this was how the stock CB160 Honda worked - turning on the headlight connected another alternator winding.

Idle drop when the lights are switched on contradicts the notion that the Vision alternator delivers full output all the time regardless of load. What could account for the apparent increase in load with lights on?

Also, disconnecting one ac leg might increase it's longevity but when the remaining 2 die, doesn't that render the third leg useless?

 George, I am aware of how the system works and don't want to start any big arguements, just my observation, when idleing about 1200 rpm, my Vision will drop about 100 rpm when the lights are switched on, measured voltage is the same lights on or off, I've never measured the amprage draw mabe that would tell the tail.

I have'nt had the charging issues that many of you on this site have had.  I have a friend with a 80's Suzuki thats cooked two stators, both times a dealer replaced the stator and no regulator, both stators were short lived, he was about to sell the bike, I told him to let me take a look, I advised him to buy a new stator, regulator and a new battery, I installed the parts and made a new battery to engine ground, yes it was a bit of money to spend on a 25 year old M/C but it is in perfect condition in every other way, other than replacing the battery there have been no other issues with the bike in the past 6/7 years.

The Vision uses a 3 phase charging system, it probbably would not be a good idea to disconnect one leg of the stator.  The old Hondas used a single phase charging system and when you switched the lights on it added the output of one more coil that was seperate from the rest.  I have used a modern single phase RR on the old bikes and wired the extra lighting coil in with the rest to get alittle more output at lower rpm's as they were alittle week, 120 to 140 watts, not much now days as many want to run the lights all the time.

   Ken

Walt_M's right on the drag thing. Scientific reality is the common bond we share  ;D

I pulled a Venture regulator from the "Flying Pig"s parts bike to replace the toasted one on Dean Nichol's Vision.
It has the same set of wires as a Vision but duplicated twice in a bigger heat sink.
I can't really judge reliability until I run over to Rick_G's again but it does not get hot and it's toasted stator is now in an oil bath.

$0.02
;)
Coil

Quoteand it's toasted stator is now in an oil bath.

does that mean you have the toasted stator sitting in a pan of oil, or are you somehow dousing the running stator in oil (with a Venture crank bolt, or similar)?

I am developing some serious interest in this style of RR unit. I may just get my hands on one if I can find a decent price and get it into a serious test on the Vision.  This is Series type (not a mosfet) as opposed to Shunt (mosfet included here although it is a more efficient shunt RR) which apparently (from what others say) handles the voltage in a different manner.  The shunt runs voltage continuously under load, but the Series is supposed to shut off the load in an intermittent way thereby lessening heat build up in the stator.

That is the stated theory and certainly deserves some attention as it could be a major help to the Vision.  It is still being tested in the Aprilia forum (man do they have problems with toasting stators, make the Vision look angelic  :angel:), the GS forum and the results should be in by the end of next season.  So far so good on anyone who has used the cycletronics unit or the compufire brand.

You can source the more reasonable model here at:

http://www.jpcycles.com/product/382-711#  $134 -149.00

Cycle Electric Inc. 3-Phase Rectifying Regulator
Fitment Note: For (P/N 382-705) Cycle Electric 3-phase charging system kit ONLY
• Designed for use with 382-705 3-phase charging system
• Can be used with any 3-phase stator

Here is what they advertise for this unit: 

• Blocks current to control voltage which reduces stator current resulting in lower temperature and less drag on the motor and more efficient operation

• The largest and most noticeable benefit is a smoother charge to the battery which means less battery maintenance and longer battery life

• Capable of handling overloads and continuous operation

• Made of top quality materials and military specific assembly processes that ensure a low failure rate and the longest service life

Here is the link to the compufire unit that is being used on 3-phase systems like ours:

http://www.usmotoman.com/product/vol...ystem/-1_17037

Number: CF55402
Manufacturer: Compu-Fire­
Weight: 1.50 pound(s)
In Stock: 1 
List Price: $203.99
Our Price: $173.39
You Save: $30.60 (15%)
   

thanks for the link, louie

I was surprised to hear the Aprilla fries stators worse then the vision.We know of someone who traded his Harley for an Aprilla.

Quote from: Lucky on January 30, 2011, 07:56:05 AM

Quoteand it's toasted stator is now in an oil bath.

does that mean you have the toasted stator sitting in a pan of oil, or are you somehow dousing the running stator in oil (with a Venture crank bolt, or similar)?

Lucky,
              I mentioned it before but I didn't have as small a drill as you used, about 50% larger diameter, so I made my orifice 50% longer.
(The flywheel bolt orifice)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Coil

ok, i see.  That wasn't me, that was Jason. i think he put the OEM bolt back in though...  worried about a possable loss of oil pressure if i remember correctly.  i wouldn't do it for the same fear...

I would use a standard bolt also. Here in NZ XZ 400's had a reputation for blowing big ends. The problem was tracked down to a small extra oil feed hole (the 550's don't have them and it was likely a design boo boo) that meant not enough oil............

I have just fitted a Shindengen Regulator off a Ducati. I notice with this one the voltage doesn't vary with the rev's.
My current stator is a secondhand unit out of a TransAlp, done a few thou, looking evenly black but not charcoaled, so it will be interesting to see how long it lasts.