Fixing things twice is one of my pet peeves, because it means I wasn't smart enough to solve the problem, i will admit i was 16 when I first attempted fixing the charging system so I give my self a little slack!
Maeve just ate the First replacement stator I have given her. when i installed the second stator I removed ALL of the connectors in the charging system and mounted a large heat sink to the back of the R/R Pictures soon. I run Full synthetic 20-50 castrol because it has a much higher cooling coefficient. I also use water wetter in my cooling system and that keeps the temp a little cooler.
I got 5k out of the 2nd stator and am NOT doing this sh*t again.
Autopsy shows overheat and independent failure in the 3 windings
I am going to use thermo-conductive paste between the cases and the stator upon reassembly. I am currently researching super hi temp insulator epoxy (650F) If that little b*tch wants to run hot as hell fine, but she aint taking my alternator ever again!
here is he epoxy I am thinking about using
http://www.cotronics.com/vo/cotr/pdf/4703.pdf
Since the windings shorted to the holder I am planning on using Mylar coated cardboard (same used in transformers windings) as an extra insulator around the holder legs
I plan on PERSONALLY rewiring this one. If you want something done right do it your self...
If this works out I might start rewiring peoples stators and offering a lifetime warranty....
Let H2O know about that lifetime warranty ;)
Haha yeah.
Say, jedi, i'm curious how you determined which and how each winding failed after the fact?
The stator wars and intense related discussions have been going on since the first V hit 5000 miles. I have read and studied all the numerious speculations and theories regarding these chronic failures. My take on the problem is that it is probably caused by vibration induced insulation failure between the stator coils and their mounting base/holder, aggrivated by non compatable metal contacts in the R/R connector.
Quote from: inanecathode on April 06, 2009, 08:48:16 AM
Haha yeah.
Say, jedi, i'm curious how you determined which and how each winding failed after the fact?
simple autopsy
Quote from: QBS on April 06, 2009, 12:04:26 PM
My take on the problem is that it is probably caused by vibration induced insulation failure between the stator coils and their mounting base/holder, aggravated by non-compatible metal contacts in the R/R connector.
vibration will be solved by Mylar-cardboard insulators on each arm of the holder, however i do think temp plays a role also, almost every bike form 95' on that doesn't have chronic stator failure has a water pump/ oil cooler Right next to the charging system
Check your family tree. You may be related to H2OLawyer. He eats stators about as quick as you did. ;-)
David
You have to like the lifetime warrenty.
new idea
I think i am going to add a line off of one of the oil passages to the stator to help cool it. Maby drill and tap the crankshaft at the magnet side and install a small jet from a carburetor to drip oil on the whole assembly
that idea (or variation) has been tried and pretty much abandoned. drilling the crankshaft bolt was tried, but the experimenter (was it Jeff Swan?) went back to the undrilled bolt.
the Ventures had a patch that was a drilled bolt and slinger....
the better quality stator is proabably a more better idea.
better ingrediants makes better stators
Quote from: Kid Jedi on April 06, 2009, 01:25:43 PM
Quote from: inanecathode on April 06, 2009, 08:48:16 AM
Haha yeah.
Say, jedi, i'm curious how you determined which and how each winding failed after the fact?
simple autopsy
No really, how did you determine which and how. I'm genuinely curious. The entire stator roasts it self to a crisp due to the hard short so im curious how you're able to tell which winding went first. Theres been hundreds of stators gone bad before yours and you're the first to determine which winding went first and exactly where it started to fail.
ok inane, here is my logic:
When one of the phases on a 3 phase stator go out the other phases have to work harder. more work = more heat. if you look at a cooked stator you will see a pattern, each arm on each phase is equally cooked. ie a blistered arm is always 2 away form another equally blistered arm. Since a phase shorted to the case does not do any work it is safe to assume that the least cooked arm went first. after dissasembly you can see the discoloration on the copper wires where they started touching each other and the arms
so we know which phase bought the farm first second and last, but what specific length of wire did?
the one thats fused to the holder on the least cooked arm.
Diagnosis:
Stator failure was caused by the enamel insulation of the wires cracking and blistering inside each of the arms.
since failure originates deep inside of the unit temperature must be the cause. an oil cooler would help conciderably, but that voids the oem look, and some people (me) like the look of the vision just the way she is.
Possible solution: overbuild the stator
Advantages are that the stator could take more abuse, but would eventually fail.
That would be only a band-aid
Another solution: Get oil to cool the stator directly
one could tee off of the oil tube lubricating the rear cylinder, just braze another brass tube to the banjo bolt leading to the stator, using an old carb jet to limit flow
One More: increase the surface contact between the stator and the side case, improving the ability of the case to sink heat away, possibly using a thermaly conductive epoxy that molds the the back of each armature.
I think I might do the last 2, drilling a small oil channel in the epoxy to help oil cool the side case.
Ideas?
Well, one of the stator phases doesnt just 'go out' it shorts to ground on the corner of one of the armature arms. When it grounds it shorts the entire stator (Y wound remember) shorts through that ground. What you're picturing in your head is likely a delta wound stator that the rest of planet earth uses in charging systems (better at low rpm high aperage ouput) A grounded circuit with no load on a Y wound stator means all that energy from every winding is converted to heat which roasts the stator in its entirety, from which i dont think one could actually perform an accurate autopsy being that all the insulation on the wire is melted/burned off. Maybe you could find the one wrap that shorted, it'll be the very first wrap on one of the arms, and it'll short right on the corner of the sharp stator core.
If heat was the problem it'd burn itself up within the first ride. The enamel insulation they used on the stator windings isnt a durable insulation. It works good up to a point then catastrophically melts, it doesnt tolerate even one overheating. If heat was the issue all it would take was one overheating and it would be done, and it would be done as theres a little bit of wiggle room down on the stator core and the insulation would run out quicker than you can say clam bake.
The only time delayed failure point beyond the ruled out heat issue would be vibration. The time it takes to wear through a certain amount of insulation would be limited to how long the bike has been running, not how hard or how fast. Every bike having different engine harmonics would explain why some visions eat stators like candy, and some are just dandy. Under no circumstances would i ever concider modifying the oiling system for anything, let alone the valve train, without completely understanding what flow rates and pressures components want to see. If you tap off of stuff and start drilling holes you're introducing leaks into systems that werent designed for it, likewise your pressure would drop. If i were to modify anything at all, i'd tap off of the outlet for the oil pump, before the bypass valve (if the vision even uses it) so the pump has some means to overcome the dropped pressure.
That's just splitting hairs tho really. If you cover the poles properly, use a polyamide coated wire, and dont fuck up and cut the wire when you're winding it (take a dvom lead, attach it to the very end of the spool of wire, and the other to the core, set the dvom to audio and bobs yer uncle) it should last basically indefinitely.
I question the wisdom of messing with the oil pressure on an engine the occasionally spins the rear rod insert. Not on my engine , I hope to NOT have to install another bottom end! :D
whew! and very interesting.
I just want it to work and do it's job.
I just bought one from Tim Parrot. Any history on these rebuilds?
akV
I think H20 has one , not too many miles on it tho.
In the interest of eliminating a place on the stator frame/base/whatever for the insulation to wear through, what about grinding the sharp angles off where they are insulated from the windings so the windings wouldn't be able to vibrate their way through the insulation so easily? Would these rounded edges render the finished stator product inoperative or less electically productive?
I went through a stator every 1,000 miles for the past six years. Just like clockwork. Even tried a new (OEM) R/R. One of my problems was that the NEW R/R was bad upon receipt - but I didn't know that at the time & all checks showed OK. That was one of my issues. I got another new (Electrosport) R/R and it lasted about 1500 miles before I got charging volts @ 17+. The new stator replaced at the same time was also up to 1500 miles at that point! ;D
I went back to the previous (OEM type) R/R. I did not know for sure if it was 'bad' at this point. So, deciding to risk it, I rode with the R/R I thought might be the cause of all my headaches.
I got another 1,000 miles out of the stator before it fried again. (2500 miles total) >:( Ordered another Electrosport type R/R and stator. That was late last Summer. I have about 200 miles on that setup so far. I am considering riding to Kingman, AZ this May, as I do think I can get at least 5,000 miles out of the new system. I know I can get at least 2500 if the last setup is any indication. I'll put some test miles on it this Spring before I make the trip, though.
After the past few years, I'd be thrilled to get 5,000 miles out of a stator at this point! I've tried CPU cooling fan on the R/R, soldering all connections and hooking brown wire directly to positive terminal. Nothing made any difference - always 1,000 miles per stator. Only after I got the new R/R did I get longer life from the stator - but then the new R/R died and I confirmed my suspicions that the older R/R was at fault for the extremely short stator life.
H2O
Quote from: QBS on April 07, 2009, 11:40:21 AM
In the interest of eliminating a place on the stator frame/base/whatever for the insulation to wear through, what about grinding the sharp angles off where they are insulated from the windings so the windings wouldn't be able to vibrate their way through the insulation so easily? Would these rounded edges render the finished stator product inoperative or less electically productive?
It wouldnt hurt, it'd unload the corners a bit and eliminate the sharp corners that just wait to cut through to the wire wrap.
maybe the devil is in the magnet...unbalanced or evil.
magnetism is a bit of mystery.
H2O, I would try a total change out if it happens again.
akV
now I am no engineer.
but I am practical.. follow me on this.
If H2o has a magnet wheel that is unbalanced, like a weak :P and a strong side >:(, then would this not create an uneven delivery of current and therefore stress the VR and therefore cause a heat buildup in the VR and the Stator and the ultimate failure of both units??
Like I said, magnetizmmm, it is a mystery.
I not sure the ying-yang magnetism has a major role in the failure....
I have had the same rotor through three stators (orig, electrosux, Virago) and all three failed at different intervals 6k, 3k, 9k.
It is unusal that H2O's stators (mostly) failed at 1,000 miles... no one else's have.
I told him long ago to unhook his odometer....
The few stators here that have lasted (Kenny, Jason) get just as hot and backened as a short term fryer...
I think it has more to do with the vibration and the quality of the materials...
as far as I know, no one has kilt a Tim Parrot stator yet (ha! 'yall better knock the wood)
unhook the odometer? What does that do?
In the case of H2o, it might render peace of mind or at least blissful ignorance.
hahahahahahahahahah cough cough.. .. .. hhahahhhahahhaahahahahahhahhahahahhahaa
I have been trying to stay out of the stator discussions because I know the answer but no one seems to care. The stators fail because the repeated heating and cooling of the epoxy coating by the heat of the engine causes the epoxy to become brittle. As the copper windings heat and cool they open spaces in the coating that allow the windings to vibrate. This destroys the remaining insulation in short order leading to a ground and stator failure.
The key to stator survival is to keep the epoxy intact. Either use a stator that will withstand the engine heat or find a way to reduce the engine heat.
The stator can not produce enough electrical energy to heat itself to the point of failure.
Tried the drilled bolt, inconclusive.
One suggestion if you're winding yourself, use teflon-coated high-temp wire.
Good luck.
Maybe the answer is to install a competition stator , that mounts on the out side of the case. There are used on many bikes used in the Baja 1000. Even if they crap out just as often , they would be easy to change. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
the funny thing is that I will probably do everything that everyone has mentioned, improved cooling, better materials, better stator,and use everyone's theorys. so we will still be with out conclusive proof.
by the way, has any one else installed a heat sink or relocated the R/R to a better location, ya know... NOT 5 INCHES FROM THE FREAKING EXHAUST!
I mean C'MON Yamaha!
some of the things that the engineers did when designing this bike make me hurt. :'(
:) Quite a number have made/bought a bracket that comes off of the left rear foot rest and mounted the R/R there. The bracket I have on "The Mistress", comes off of the screw that holds the lower fender in place (left side again). These two ways ensure that the R/R gets sufficient air circulation...
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Quote from: Kid Jedi on April 08, 2009, 07:42:22 PM
by the way, has any one else installed a heat sink ....
if you study toasted stators, you'll find
most of them are toastier on the top than the bottom.
we did a sidecase temperature comparison with an infra red thermometer and noticed a significant difference between the top and bottom.
I sawed a heatsink from a 386 processor in half and was going to use the thermo epoxy to attach it above the crank bolt cover, but never followed through :P
While I have moved the RR to the left passenger foot rest / muffler bracket , a Visionary did some testing and found it did not run hot, in its roaster position.
N-V, I have been thinking about putting one of the liquid cooled CPU coolers on my stator cover but haven't gotten into details yet. I'm not sure an air cooler would make enough of a difference. I do think Lucky's oil cooler must help some but I don't want to get into the oil system.
Quote from: Walt_M. on April 08, 2009, 09:26:52 AM
I have been trying to stay out of the stator discussions because I know the answer but no one seems to care. The stators fail because the repeated heating and cooling of the epoxy coating by the heat of the engine causes the epoxy to become brittle. As the copper windings heat and cool they open spaces in the coating that allow the windings to vibrate. This destroys the remaining insulation in short order leading to a ground and stator failure.
The key to stator survival is to keep the epoxy intact. Either use a stator that will withstand the engine heat or find a way to reduce the engine heat.
The stator can not produce enough electrical energy to heat itself to the point of failure.
Exactly. Ideally there would be a flexible epoxy that can withstand the high temperatures/repeated expanding/contracting experienced.
Quote from: Walt_M. on April 09, 2009, 11:35:10 AM
N-V, I have been thinking about putting one of the liquid cooled CPU coolers on my stator cover but haven't gotten into details yet. I'm not sure an air cooler would make enough of a difference. I do think Lucky's oil cooler must help some but I don't want to get into the oil system.
I have the oil cooler mod and still smoked two stators :-\
Talked to a motor tech today with 25 years experience in the field. I askedif it was vibration. he said no way. if it was vibration then we would see windings coming off. that stator overheated to the point of failure.
at least that's how mine failed
Quote from: Walt_M. on April 08, 2009, 09:26:52 AM
I have been trying to stay out of the stator discussions because I know the answer but no one seems to care. The stators fail because the repeated heating and cooling of the epoxy coating by the heat of the engine causes the epoxy to become brittle. As the copper windings heat and cool they open spaces in the coating that allow the windings to vibrate. This destroys the remaining insulation in short order leading to a ground and stator failure.
basically Walt summed up what we have been discussing for the last couple of days! we do care! ;D
I said the stator was overheating, here is my proof.
The stator is rated to produce 20A at 14v(Haynes manual pg141) assuming a 75% efficiency you can say that the stator is actual producing 26.6 amps, so 6.6 is lost to heat. (because it isn't lost to light emission! :P)
6.6 amps. What is that in a unit of power?
OHMS law
*= multiply
Voltage (volts) * Current (amps)= Power in watts
14v * 6.6A =92.4 watts of energy lost to heat
But we need that in Joules per second
which is, conveniently 92.4 joules per sec
Waste energy: 92.4 Joules per secWhat temp is the case where the stator sitting? I am going to assume its the coolant temp, and I have had my fan come on in traffic, that's 98c plus or minus 3 c (pg 180 Yamaha service manual) and we sure as hell know the oil isn't touching the stator, when siting the oil level is below the stator and when running its even lower.
so lets call it 100c
Ambient temp 100cNext question- how much material is heating up?
the stator with winding weigh about 2.6 lbs( bathroom scale, me with stator, me without) *Note: go on diet*
2.6 lbs =
1179 gramsnow for the real science! :D
we need the change in heat formula ( we are attempting Calorimetry Kids! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calorimetry)
*= multiply
Q= M*C* Delta T
Q= energy or heat
M= mass of object to undergo thermal change
C= it the heat capacity of the object ( a number that describes the relationship between energy and temp)
Delta T= the change in temperature that the object undergoes in Kelvins but since we are working in numbers higher than zero c can be used
Do some simple algebra to get
Delta T= (M*C) divided by Q
Delta T= what we want
Q=energy in joules 92.4
M= mass of the stator in grams
1179gC= heat capacity of the stator in Joules per gram per kelvin
Since the stator is steel, and copper with a small percentage (by mass) of insulation, we can negate the mass of the insulation. also because the heat capacity of steel and copper are also very close to the same .38 and .42 lets call it .42 since there is about 6 times more steel than copper
C=.42now for the answer:
Delta T=(1197*.42)/92.4
5.5 degrees c per SECOND
So the stator generates enough energy to increase 5 degrees c per second. and without cooling that can get out of hand VERY fast
I remember some article on the forums saying that the stator case was reaching 160 c, any one remember who figured this out?
If i can improve the surface connection between the cover and stator that would effectively double the mass of the stator, so half the rate of temp increase, so that would hit ~ 137 degrees c
Wile i was at the motor shop picking out wire I am using for the rewind, I identified the old wire, by the color of the insulation, to be rated for 80c. what a joke. I picked up some "thermaleze" Qs wire, 17 gauge. the catalog says 200c and the insulating paper has the same rating. I have a good feeling about this.
the total at the motor store for the super high grade wire and paper? $13.63 ;D
the wire has a low friction coating ;D
P.S. Thanks for all of your input guys. But especially to inane cathode, he is keeping me honest!
Talked to a motor tech today with 25 years experience in the field. I askedif it was vibration. he said no way. if it was vibration then we would see windings coming off. So, this super motor tech. Has he ever worked on the charging system of a v-twin with a permanent magnet charging system? Does he even know what a vision is? that stator overheated to the point of failure. at least that's how mine failed Once again you havent actually determined the actual source of initial failure, all you've determined is that at some point it had gotten hot
Quote from: Walt_M. on April 08, 2009, 09:26:52 AM
I have been trying to stay out of the stator discussions because I know the answer but no one seems to care. The stators fail because the repeated heating and cooling of the epoxy coating by the heat of the engine causes the epoxy to become brittle. As the copper windings heat and cool they open spaces in the coating that allow the windings to vibrate. This destroys the remaining insulation in short order leading to a ground and stator failure.
basically Walt summed up what we have been discussing for the last couple of days! we do care! ;D
I said the stator was overheating, here is my proof.
The stator is rated to produce 20A at 14v(Haynes manual pg141) assuming a 75% efficiency you can say that the stator is actual producing 26.6 amps, so 6.6 is lost to heat. (because it isn't lost to light emission! :P) Where do you get 75% efficiency from? This makes no sense whatsoever, the stator is not a lightbulb or a heating element, its a long piece of wire wrapped around and around. You're doing the waste heat calculation wrong, its not a cumulative effect of lost electrical power through arbitrary efficiency numbers, its a function of electrical current put through a finite diameter wire. Find the resistance per foot of the particular alloy of copper yamaha used and you'll have a much closer number.
6.6 amps. What is that in a unit of power?
OHMS law
*= multiply
Voltage (volts) * Current (amps)= Power in watts
14v * 6.6A =92.4 watts of energy lost to heat
But we need that in Joules per second
which is, conveniently 92.4 joules per sec
Waste energy: 92.4 Joules per secWhat temp is the case where the stator sitting? I am going to assume its the coolant temp, and I have had my fan come on in traffic, that's 98c plus or minus 3 c (pg 180 Yamaha service manual) and we sure as hell know the oil isn't touching the stator, when siting the oil level is below the stator and when running its even lower. 240F is as hot as the oil will get according to multiple forum posters
so lets call it 100c
Ambient temp 100cNext question- how much material is heating up?
the stator with winding weigh about 2.6 lbs( bathroom scale, me with stator, me without) *Note: go on diet*
2.6 lbs =
1179 gramsnow for the real science! :D
we need the change in heat formula ( we are attempting Calorimetry Kids! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calorimetry)
*= multiply
Q= M*C* Delta T
Q= energy or heat
M= mass of object to undergo thermal change
C= it the heat capacity of the object ( a number that describes the relationship between energy and temp)
Delta T= the change in temperature that the object undergoes in Kelvins but since we are working in numbers higher than zero c can be used
Do some simple algebra to get
Delta T= (M*C) divided by Q
Delta T= what we want
Q=energy in joules 92.4
M= mass of the stator in grams
1179gC= heat capacity of the stator in Joules per gram per kelvin
Since the stator is steel, and copper with a small percentage (by mass) of insulation, we can negate the mass of the insulation. also because the heat capacity of steel and copper are also very close to the same .38 and .42 lets call it .42 since there is about 6 times more steel than copper
C=.42 You can't discard numbers if you're doing finite calculations because they're complicated or disagree with your premise
now for the answer:
Delta T=(1197*.42)/92.4
5.5 degrees c per SECOND
So the stator generates enough energy to increase 5 degrees c per second. and without cooling that can get out of hand VERY fast To suggest that theres absolutely ZERO cooling (absolutely no thermal losses to ANYTHING in your equation) either through convection to the air thats whirling around the stator from the magnet, or from the stator core to the case itself is absurd at best
I remember some article on the forums saying that the stator case was reaching 160 c, any one remember who figured this out?
If i can improve the surface connection between the cover and stator that would effectively double the mass of the stator, so half the rate of temp increase, so that would hit ~ 137 degrees c You're assuming a hypothetical totally homologous heated mass with no consideration to thermal lag between your assumed hot spots and the rest of the mass. Have you done any calculations for how quickly heat could actually dissipate under full charging load?
Wile i was at the motor shop picking out wire I am using for the rewind, I identified the old wire, by the color of the insulation Dyes used in insulation batches, especially 25 years ago, have no bearing on what is actually in the insulation. Have you had the insulation analysed to find out what exactly its composed of?, to be rated for 80c. what a joke. I picked up some "thermaleze" Qs wire, 17 gauge. the catalog says 200c and the insulating paper has the same rating. I have a good feeling about this. Is this wire oil safe? What's it actually made out of?
the total at the motor store for the super high grade wire and paper? $13.63 ;D
the wire has a low friction coating ;D
P.S. Thanks for all of your input guys. But especially to inane cathode, he is keeping me honest!
There's some stuff to think about. I'd invite the mystery super mechanic to explain how he thinks the wire from the stator poles would somehow come loose. I'd also like an explanation from you why you're totally discounting the fact that the stock stator wires rest, with no extra insulation or holding fixtures, against sharp steel corners and how after thousands of hours of operation and vibrations this would have no impact on the insulation integrity. Instead entirely speculative overheating is the root cause.
Looks like the Kid Jedi is the new Coil........ ;)
i am not trying to produce a very accurate calculation, I am trying to point out the failure.
Mainly i wanted a theoretical number that would be harsher than the environment, so if i designed a solution rugged enough to solve the horribly overkill numbers i found, then the real problem will be far within tolerances.
cooling was not taken in to account in the math, only energy generated
and yes the wire is oil proof.
the stator i identified was not oem, but a supposed heavy duty replacement I put in 2 years ago
I fully disassembled my stator and nothing was loose. the insulation came off in strips. If the insulation wasn't burnt, then vibration would have had no effect.with my vision running I feel almost no vibration on my case. footpegs buzz more than my side cases.
there were no sharp corners on my stator, the wire had welded itself to the inside upper edge on the arms in 3 spots, one for each phase. each corner was smoothed out and coated with epoxy.
For cooling calculations, I plan on finding those through experiment, using actual engine components, when I have some results I will share them here
As for my waste calculation.. that was a great idea inane, and I should have calculated that way!
The reason the wire was welded is because it shorted out and burned the stator.
Your feet arent inside the engine, and i doubt you'd be able to feel the frequency thats short enough to cause the inner wires to vibrate. Remember we're not talking about taking a file to the wire, all it has to do is move 1/10th of a milimeter and its enough to take the insulation off the wire. Understand its not robust insulation AT ALL. Its ONLY design is to prevent two touching wires to conduct NOT to withstand ANY abrasion of ANY kind.
The thing i dont get, is if its really heat, why doesnt it fail the instant the bike gets to operating temperature? The stator is under full load constantly, all it would take is the engine reaching operating temperature ONCE and the insulation would fail. Its barely a thousandth thick, its not thick enough to sustain any heat spikes. Theres plenty of room between stator wires for the insulation to run out. If it was truely a wire insulation problem it would fail the very first time you would run it up to operating temperature.
If you're really concerned about heat you need to focus on a better way of soaking the entire stator windings and all in epoxy. Not that shitty assembly epoxy they put in fan motors, but a high temperature flexible type. Its the JB weld problem. Its super strong, but its super brittle and inflexible. Nothing can withstand constant agitation, they'll fail eventually you just need to find one thats flexible enough to deal with it.
One thing i noticed, if you're trying to make some super heat conductive stator setup, it wont work with the mylar board (i saw the instructable too ;)) you'll essentially insulate the windings from the core and actually increase the heat it develops.
epoxy is ductile till it is burnt....
Not if its synthetic and non metallic, which is the only kind you'll be able to find for that heat range. It's not nearly as ductile as metal on metal.
Ok i am almost done rewinding my stator, I cut some high temp motor winding board to cover the top and sides of each post. I think it is some kind of fiber impregnated plastic. I am not sure who makes it but the guy says it is rated to about 400c so that covers both the heat theory and the vibration. Inane made some points that I cant ignore so I think I will cover both bases. but it is gonna be time to put a outer coating over this thing soon and I was wondering what you guys think would be a good idea. something flexible, of say a durometer of about 60-A?
Do you have pics of this process or are you thinking of offering services after yours succeeds??
Quote from: Kid Jedi on April 13, 2009, 11:15:49 PM
Ok i am almost done rewinding my stator, I cut some high temp motor winding board to cover the top and sides of each post. I think it is some kind of fiber impregnated plastic. I am not sure who makes it but the guy says it is rated to about 400c so that covers both the heat theory and the vibration. Inane made some points that I cant ignore so I think I will cover both bases. but it is gonna be time to put a outer coating over this thing soon and I was wondering what you guys think would be a good idea. something flexible, of say a durometer of about 60-A?
DUDE!
Brain wave, soak the whole damn thing (leave room for rotating parts, mounting holes, and the mating surface to the case (for cooling)) in red rtv. It'll capture the wires, not let them touch AND absorb vibration all at the same time!
I'm totally serious tho, if you don't do it i think i'll try that if/when my stator takes an epic shit <_<
One of the draw backs of the current charging system is the speed it runs. The dia of the rotor is bigger than the stator. If the rotor was on the inside and the stator outside of it, it would lack the ability to make as much heat. Not to mention, the rotor couldn't act as a heat trap, and thus the stator would be cooler
like this
(http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/pict/3203292257368080_4.jpg)
Red RTV? I mean of all the stuff... there has to be a better epoxy for this than rtv. dont get me wrong you are on the right track, but i want RTV's bass ass grandma!
Well, buy a ticket to my logic train here; You dont want rigid, you dont want hard. You're not dropping the stator off of a cliff, you're theoretically trying to dampen vibrations and keep things separated and happily living together as they vibrate/expand/contract. Rigid stuff (ie epoxy) does nothing to dampen vibrations (other than mass dampening but lets not go there) so any harmonics you might get in the stator core will just reverberate around until something else sucks them up (think of the stator poles as tuning fork legs). Other than its dampening properties, another really good reason i would stay away from rigid sealant/adhesive is its almost never flexible. If in fact there's major expansion in the stator windings, anything rigid enough to last through world war three as you're thinking of either wouldn't yield at all, or would just crack/chip/be damaged otherwise. Even if there was space enough for stuff to expand, it has no way of pushing the coils back to where they should be so you'd have your windings basically bouncing around inside a hollow space anyway.
Ok has ANYONE tried to use RTV in this manner.. and lived?
The best thing I can find is ~85 bucks a pint. (durapot 868 form coletronics) and i am not sure it is worth 85 bucks when rtv is up the street....
DO NOT USE RED RTV ON ELECTRICAL COMPONENTS! as Red RTV cures it releases Acetic acid. which will corrode copper and dissolve insulation. Use the ultra copper RTV! As it cures it releases Butanone Oxime which will not harm electrical components.
I was looking over the data sheets on red rtv and noticed acetic acid on the list and called permatex to be sure.
(I loves my chemistry!)
(I loves my chemistry!)
Evidently!!
Im pulling for ya, Kid!!!! Good luck!!
Stator update:
first I made some notes on how the stator is constructed, 27 loops per post, all post are wired CCW, with the screw down the phases rotate CW around the armature. if screw is at 9 O'clock start at 12 O'clock.
Next remove all of the old windings and coil them neatly.
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q308/DrGimpo/XZ550%20Stator%20Rebuild/IMG_1018.jpg)
oh well. Damn those wires are fried.
Here is the bare stator. The pic does not show it, but each of the windings shorted in the same way, to the "armpit" of each post of the stator.
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q308/DrGimpo/XZ550%20Stator%20Rebuild/IMG_1017.jpg)
Here is a detail shot of how I folded the paper to cover the armpit of each post
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q308/DrGimpo/XZ550%20Stator%20Rebuild/IMG_1021.jpg)
Here is the stator 1/2 way armored.
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q308/DrGimpo/XZ550%20Stator%20Rebuild/IMG_1020.jpg)
Here is the stator after I added the second piece to cover the ends of each stator post.
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q308/DrGimpo/XZ550%20Stator%20Rebuild/IMG_1022.jpg)
I used one paper over, then one around. for kicks and giggles I took a spare scrap of the paper to a piece of 120 grit sandpaper, the sandpaper had almost no effect. its really tough stuff. I used a small amount of super glue to hold the paper in place.
More pics when I finish winding this little bastard...
What was the length of wire you removed from each phase?
(i was talking about the ultra copper rtv btw, it's the only kind that can handle heat :P)
Each phase is about 337 inches
looking good!!
Just finished winding. 486 loops. Tomorrow I seal her up with copper rtv...
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q308/DrGimpo/XZ550%20Stator%20Rebuild/IMG_1023.jpg)
I did it in 6 hours, single sitting.
my hands.. so sore....
OOH - that's purdy! Nice work.
I've been tempted to wind my own, too - but I was afraid I'd still get 1000 miles between stator replacements and it just seems like too much bother for the short stator life I've been experiencing over the last few years. Might try winding one to keep as a spare, though.
H2O
wow,, looks like a lot of work, but you got it!!
Yum, whats for dinner ? Stator!
Stator! the other burnt meat!
nice job, that paper might be a big help, too
maby.. i am not so sure. If i could have done it over i would have done the paper a whole different way, having one piece that comes over the top of the post and comes in on the outside edges. That would have been alot better :(
Looks good dude :D
I'd tighten up some of the coils around the 8 oclock and 5 oclock positions, they look mighty loose ;)
OK squeezing red rtv in to the stator: messy and stinky as all get
I used red rtv, its rated to ONLY 650F (intermittent) but ultra copper was only 50F more so i didn't see a point. the acetic acid had no effect on a test piece of the wire i dropped in vinegar so i aint worred. pics tommorow.
Did you know that a can of carb clean is just the right size to make a nice stand to goo up a stator?
I bet this stator will last 3K. After winding it I got a good technique down so the first half of the stator is cruddy in my opinion, and the paper could have been done a better way. oh well. this one will be my test stator. maby we should start up an office pool to see how long it will last! :D
(if inane bets more than 1k I will be impressed)
total cost: 16 bucks.
Time? ~7 hours. if i did it again i could probably cut that in half.
I was talking to my motorcycle guru and we worked out that drilling the rotor bolt should be easy to do. I plan on drillin and tapping the inside of the bolt to install a very small carb jet on the inside of the bold and taking the smallest drill bit i can lay my hands on drilling a 45 degree hole in one of the bold faces (I have got the lathe technology) to hose down that little devil, and with the rotation of the shaft if sould be a pretty cool thing. Does any one have a spare rotor bolt to donate to the cause? If the test one works (92% chance of success) I will mail it back to ya and you can enjoy an oil cooled stator.
I will post pics of my idea tomorrow when there is nice light to photo in
camera is being crappy. i am just gonna put it in with out photo. its red, and goopie looking. it looks like it was covered in red cake frosting. now, I GOTTA RIDE MY BIKE!
In about 1968, I worked for, Superior Armature, a local, rewinder. They had a machine that could hold an armature, and then spin it slowly, two revolutions. the opperator then hit the peddel and it would spin two more turns. After you had enough wire, for that section, you would release the clamp, rotate to the next post, the wind that section. It was nice, cause you could control where the wire went, and you could hold tension, cause you were holding the wire with cotton gloves on. These things, could be wound, in that fashion
LOL Sitting in a chair, the spool of wire was held between my feet. using by back i was able to control the tension on the wire, now one hand held the armature wile the other manipulated the wire, I foud it was most effective to hold the wire still and maneuver the armature around then trying to snake the wire all over the place. this method took a little loner till I got the hang of it but prevented any rubbing or chafing of the wire wile the armature was wound.
I found that the RTV + stator was too big to fit inside of the rotor. After some quick thinking I cut off all of the insulating paper from the top of each winding using a razor knife, exposing the metal of the armature underneath, this cleaned up the size perfectly and easily.
Soooo, have you run an ohm meter to the phases to make sure you didnt knick any installing the wire ;)
yup. i did the ohm meter check the whole way, but its REALLY easy to tell if you nicked something. I justtook my time and did it perfect. I nicked a wire only once. I was really disappointed, I know I can do better than that, so I removed that whole phase and used a completely new piece of wire. My vision deserves the best I can give.
there ya go.. a man after my own heart!! Im betting 3700 miles.. just pulled it out of the air... i HOPE it goes 37,000 miles.
aaaand the bike isn't charging. >:( >:( >:( >:( Gorammit! well time to start at square one, but we know for a fact the stator was bunk. I am so tempted to walk to my parts bins and pull out one of my spare charging systems. I have one off of a 82 CB750 K and XS1100 and a few others that would just drop in... >:( >:( >:(
Back to square one ;D
damn, I had high hopes for it too!!!
I thought the 82 cb750 uses a much deeper external stator and an active internal rotor. Is the stator putting out any volts at all or are you just checking the battery voltage?
I just made a quick batt check before I turned in for the night. After assembly there was a wire that got nicked by the stator mounting screw. small paper gasket later and all was fixed. one phase was putting out 60v at 3.7k rpm, will check the other 2 tomorrow. I will test the R/R tomorrow to make sure it is working i have a hunch it is being an Ass-Hat. I think i am gonna get a whole bunch of gasket paper and another template from Yamaha and cut like 5 more stator gaskets in the near future. Since I use yama/honda bond 4 with each installation I think I can get away with generic paper.
Hey Kid,, can I get a copy of the side cover gasket?? just tracing it on cardboard or something would be fine.. I thought I had one coming but it seems to have been lost in transit or something,, bottom line, I dont have one. good luck with the stator,, Id really like to roll my own when mine dies too... Ill be hitting you up for info if thats ok...
i use rtv. no mo gasket for me. also: the motor winding guys lied to me. the paper MELTED OFF! it blistered and turned to about fiberglass and cut the insulation the the wires >:( >:( >:( >:( Monday am gonna rip those guys a new asshole. The wire held up great and the rtv worked. but the paper failed... the stator ran at about 140C and the wire insulation was perfectly happy.
Of course it was my first time riding my bike in over a month. I missed how well my vision handles at 95. I knew there was a reason I work so damned hard on her. ;D
It was so funny. this guy on a honda cbr 600 wanted to race me. I walked away from him, till we hit 45.
Finally getting around to cleaning the carbs for the first time ever. I will do that this weekend to kill time before the motor winding shop opens Monday.
But i will nail this stator... ::)
as for my earlier post, I sucked it up and bought a gasket,, I needed brake bolts anyway so I added it in... and stator, you only fail, when you give up, I wish you luck!! work out all the details and I'll be looking to do the same.. thank you for working it out first!!!
funk you are welcome to call me for stuff. I am not always near the computer!
Thanx Bro!! When I call, it'll be to go for a ride!!! Im almost always near the computer.. sad really! You holler anytime youre coming up!! We should have a ride/bar-b-que this summer... in fact, one better, we should get a ride together for everyone around here too!! Im gonna try to go to Arizona next month for a ride with the guys, but THIS is some of the best riding in the world!!
I would think that some kind of teflon wrap would stand up to the heat ?? must be something out there.
Treated paper doesn't impress me.
Here i was thinking yamaha could have just put 50 cents worth of extra materials to the stator assembly and would have nailed the stator problem for good but didnt cause they're the evil empire.
Dang, we were so close.
I just thought that you should know that you are and Arse sometimes ;D
gotta admit he's funny though!! lol..
Quote from: Kid Jedi on April 25, 2009, 07:44:13 PM
I just thought that you should know that you are and Arse sometimes ;D
You love me and you know it :D
Love may be too strong of a word, tolerate comes to mind though. ;) ;) :) :) :) :) :) :D :D :D
Tolerate like a mother-in-law. 8)
I go drinking with my mother-in-law! Hey Inane, Wanna have a few beers and talk shit about thermodynamics? ;D
got some new winding paper. Its .015 nomex paper by dupont.
heres the specs.
DuPont(TM) Nomex®
Inherent dielectric Strength
In densified form, Nomex® aramid products withstand short-term electrical stresses of 450 to 1000 V/mil (18 to 40 kV/mm) depending on product type and thickness, with no need for further treatment with varnishes or resins.
(maby I CAN make a 40KV charging system now!)
Mechanical Toughness
Densified Nomex® products are strong, resilient and (in the thinner grades) flexible, with good resistance to tearing and abrasion.
Thermal Stability
Temperatures up to 200°C (390°F) have little or no effect on the electrical and mechanical properties of Nomex® products, and useful values are retained at considerably higher temperatures. Furthermore, these useful properties are maintained for at least 10 years of continuous exposure at 220°C (430°F).
Chemical Compatibility
Nomex® is essentially unaffected by most solvents, and is unusually resistant to attack by acids and alkalies. It is compatible with all classes of varnishes and adhesives, transformer fluids, lubricating oils, and refrigerants. Since Nomex® products are not digestible, they are not attacked by insects, fungi or molds.
(damn cant eat it!)
Cryogenic Capabilities
Nomex® has found acceptance in a variety of cryogenic applications due to its unique polymeric structure. At the boiling point of nitrogen (77 0K), Nomex® Type 410 paper as well as Type 993 and Type 994 pressboard have tensile strengths in excess of room temperature values.
(Maby i can cryogenicly freeze my motorcycle....)
Moisture Insensitivity
In equilibrium at 95 percent relative humidity densified Nomex® papers and pressboards maintain 90 percent of their bone-dry dielectric strength while many mechanical properties are actually improved.
Radiation Resistant
Nomex® is essentially unaffected by 800 megarads of ionizing radiation (which causes polyester laminates to crumble), and still retains useful mechanical and electrical properties after eight times this exposure.
(so if i bombard my stator with gamma radiation it Wont turn in to the hulk? :'( )
so, whats the plan, re-wrap it?
well i am one of the rare people who are smart enough to fix something, but not smart enough to know when i should just buy a new one!
will have a new wrap soon.
so, what would the cost be for these materials, roughly? and tell me about it,, Im not rare, im just stupid,, I started polishing the aluminum on one of my bikes and made a clean spot.... now my fingers hurt.
Quote from: Kid Jedi on April 27, 2009, 01:43:30 PM
I go drinking with my mother-in-law! Hey Inane, Wanna have a few beers and talk shit about thermodynamics? ;D
Suuuuuuuure
stupid thermodynamics!
Didn't see anything about mechanical strength/vibration resistance.
well the cost is still about 20 bucks to re wrap this includes, paper, RTV, wire and beer.
Quote from: Walt_M. on April 28, 2009, 10:45:18 AM
Didn't see anything about mechanical strength/vibration resistance.
It says its strong, resilient and resists abrasion and tearing. Whatever that means :O
ditto inane.
20 is a pretty sweet deal even if it takes a few hours.
My motorcycle guru did some research, it turns out that almost every bike that Yamaha made after ours had a cooling system on the stator, be it oil or water! I guess we were the stator guinea pigs!
Uhhhh, i'd like to see a water cooled stator ???
Unless what he means by 'water cooling' is just cause a water passage runs somewhat close to the flywheel cover :o
well water cooled ones are just located near the coolant pump, or have a water passage make a quick detour near the stator.
You would love the hydrogen/water cooling on the generators at my work ;D
I want to meet your motorcycle mechanic guru, he sounds like an interesting guy ???
Quote from: ShaneSpring on April 29, 2009, 02:49:49 AM
You would love the hydrogen/water cooling on the generators at my work ;D
Or you could just cool everything with liquid helium like they do at my work =D
And in the case of a leak, everyone sings soprano (or tenor ) :o
I should say that even with hydrogen/water cooling we still managed to cook one of our stators :'(
Do I really need to use rtv on the stator?... ???
You need something to damp the vibration of the windings. No matter how tight you wind it, when it gets hot the windings expand and open gaps which will allow all kinds of fun vibrations. The epoxy is there to control that. I doubt if rtv will.
My vision isn't vibrating its stators apart, she is cooking em.
if you really want a tasty and nice smelling stator while being cooked, make sure to use a few cloves of garlic sauted in the oil too. ;) 8)
Quote from: Kid Jedi on May 07, 2009, 11:09:37 PM
My vision isn't vibrating its stators apart, she is cooking em.
Other than your assertion and that of a mysterious stranger, do you have any proof?
When any circuit shorts, it overheats. If i found a burnt up plug when everything around it is fine i wouldnt say it must have been too close to the engine, i'd say something in the connection caused the problem.
How much carbon fouling did you find on your stator bolts when you took them out? If the stator core is getting so hot, how come theres not a huge pile of burnt oil scale on everything, not just the wires of the stator?
I observe that none of the wires are coming off of the stator(s), the jb weld i put on the stator is burnt (used a dab of jb on the sharp corners to help with the winding process) and the stator(s) REEK of burnt oil. And nothing is cracked. Even the jb weld.
Do you think there is any chance the windings contract when they cool?
Get a Tim Parrot unit and get on with life. It is about riding isn't it?
Thank you akvision!
You don't seriously think i have been this long with out my vision do you? I got a ricks in there right now! 8)
ok kid, I want results, rides. (rides)
I was thinking about you the other day when I ran across a guy that actually did a Fuel Injected vision.
Did you see that? It was a google search on Yamaha Vision xz5500 just for fun about 4 or 6 pages back.
thanks akvision He is running 14.7 to one on a alpha-n table system meaning that his system does not self tune or adjust on the fly. he should be running 13.2 that auto tunes nd self adjusts on the fly with port injection and dual wb o2 sensors to a scavenging exhaust...
good. you are right on it.
for the moment I am sticking with crappy carbs and am looking for a good set to rebuild.
Please keep your eyes and ears open and let me know if you see or hear of a set.
thanks
also,
I just put my R50 back on the road. I do have some extra and new parts and some servicable used parts. I wanted the Hanz to be perfect so I went with a lot of new stuff and I ended up over buying.
Quote from: akvision on May 11, 2009, 12:49:49 PM... I wanted the Hanz to be perfect so I went with a lot of new stuff and I ended up over buying.
You seem to do that pop.... I have a box full of spare V parts in my garage too.. ;)
Quote from: rhpaw on May 12, 2009, 11:40:17 AM
Quote from: akvision on May 11, 2009, 12:49:49 PM... I wanted the Hanz to be perfect so I went with a lot of new stuff and I ended up over buying.
You seem to do that pop.... I have a box full of spare V parts in my garage too.. ;)
Yeah but bmw parts are actually worth something ;) :D
lol
The bottom line. Don't rebuild your oem stator. Get one from ricks. it has 1/4in of epoxy over the holder. i got one for ~126 to my hand because I am magical. Its a great unit, with high quality wires and wrap. So I dropped in the new stator at 11K so lets see how long it lasts.
Quote from: Kid Jedi on May 15, 2009, 06:04:02 PM
The bottom line. Don't rebuild your oem stator. Get one from ricks. it has 1/4in of epoxy over the holder. i got one for ~126 to my hand because I am magical. Its a great unit, with high quality wires and wrap. So I dropped in the new stator at 11K so lets see how long it lasts.
Just cause you messed your first time rewinding a stator for anything ever, doesnt mean other people shouldnt try, and doesnt mean a personally rewrapped stator is any worse than any other build.
Tim Parrot, timparrot, TIM PARROT@ exactly less than $100 with a solid guarantee! How simple does it get?
"Seems like you young guys always want to do it the hard way." That's what my Dad told me, a long ago, what wisdom.
My dad once told me " Don't drive what you can't push!.."
Things are sometimes remembered out of context and taken to heart.
(yes, I can even push a vanagon)
Re-reading this thread, as i'll be probably rewinding a stator here soon, i think you missed a couple things that could have nuked your stator, kid:
Where you skip the phases around, and where the wire crosses, instead of tucking up the crossover wire you go straight across, that could have been smashed on install. Also, the 'arm pits' of the stator arms are the only parts that arent armored with your paper. Yeah, you got the top and around the diameter but you didnt address the actual corner itself. It may be strong paper, but looking at the pictures it doesnt look like theres any there.
I noticed that and redesigned the paper system to be a single piece that wraps around each post and you nip the corners to get it to fold down. Would you like a piece of nomex? It would fit in a simple letter. If you want to do this right you should make a mold of the stator w/o wire and then grind down each arm by about 20% then place the stator back in the mold and fill up each arm with some type of epoxy. so you have a HUGE layer of protection.
Did you use the nomex when you did yours, or just the paper?
I'll take it if you're not using it. Just need a good way to protect the wire from the core.
I used a DMD paper rated for 50C lower than the nomex. I never actually made a nomex stator. After I spoke to the guys at ricks, they convinced me to buy on of their awesome ones. pm me a mailing address and I will send out a letter with a few sheets of nomex in it. enough for a stator at least. I have a spare stator core if you want, and you can even use some of my extra wire if you are willing to pay for shipping.
Quote from: Kid Jedi on May 27, 2009, 03:44:26 AM
I used a DMD paper rated for 50C lower than the nomex. I never actually made a nomex stator. After I spoke to the guys at ricks, they convinced me to buy on of their awesome ones. pm me a mailing address and I will send out a letter with a few sheets of nomex in it. enough for a stator at least. I have a spare stator core if you want, and you can even use some of my extra wire if you are willing to pay for shipping.
Awesome 8)