Fuel Injected Vision Possible!?!???

[Blake]

Hey Everyone,

Recently in the past week or so i've been looking for a stand alone fuel injection system for my old cadillac with a 500cid.  looking at magazine articles and various other sources, it seemed that the holly commander 950 multi port injection would be the best bet.  However..two issues.  1. its hellova expensive

http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=1527&prmenbr=361

And 2. for that 500cid engine, giving myself a little room for power increase, according to calculations id need about a 60+lb/min fuel injectors. the down side? near 100 a piece  :'( :'( :'(...so the combined prices of those pretty much shot down that idea...

but then i was looking on cadillac forums and came across a link to this site:
http://www.megasquirt.info/

It's called "megasquirt" and its a DIY fuel injection system.  Now if some of you have been following my kooky posts, Last summer i bought a DIY wide band afr meter from New Zeland (to help rejet the vision) and it one fine product. So although its DIY, its nothing im not used to.

And what REALLY caught my attention.   The parts for the actual Fuel injection controller (the electronics of it) is less than 200 bucks!(1/10th of the holly price). but that also doesnt include anything else youll need (fuel pumps, injectors, sensors, etc).  But still, i figure for the cadillac it might cost 1/2 the price of the holly system.

But what REALLY caught my attention was this quote from one of the vendors:
"MegaSquirt programmable EFI Engine Management System from Bowling and Grippo.  Install fuel injection on anything from a single cylinder lawnmower engine to a fire breathing V12, and anything in between!  This kit is easily the biggest bang for the buck in the standalone EFI arena.  You build it, You tune it, you drive it.  MegaSquirt makes it possible.  You can do it!"

Now if im correct, I believe the Visions 2 cylinder 550cc engine is "somewhere inbetween" a lawnmower and a v-12  ;D 

I'm definately going to do a lot of reading on this Megasquirt in the next few days and see if its plausable for me to do.  If so, I think i might actually feel better "testing" it on the vision rather than my daily driven car :)  but we'll see if ingeniuty can really overcome my cheapness :)

Just thought id let you all know since i remember many discussions about converting to EFI through the years.

Comments? Thoughts?

Blake

[Lucky]

I think you might have a tough time tieing in the ignition & timming.. a problem we, so far, have no alternative for: our $400 TCI.

I know Tdub is working with MSD on an ignition for JR's Vision motor, & i'm sure he's pretty tight lipped about it, but perhaps in time these may become available to us...

[silicon_toad2000]

i think you need a few different sensors to get injection working properly, like a crank angle sensor and a some kind of throttle position/air low/manifold air pressure sensor.
Most aftermarket throttle bodies have sensors on them so you just have to find one to fit. Mind you you could try and use a MAP or AFM, theres not much room for a AFM in the inlet tract and with the MAP sensor, you would need to use two and tie them together, at the prices mentioned i don't think the computer will handle that.
Have a look at webber aftermarket throttle bodies, I think they have the trottle position sensors and the injectors built in. Hopefully there would be one to fit.
I'm sure with the number of electronics guru's that seem to be surfing around on here they should be able to help with the crank angle sensor

[Blake]

Lucky,

Reading over the megasquirt and other sites for stand alone fuel injection, this is what ive come up with:

According to the "megasquirt" ...what you would need to make the vision fuel injected:

ECU
Intake Air Temperature Sensor
Coolant Temperature Sendor
O2 Sensor
Throttle Position Sensor
MAP sensor

Add in two fuel injectors and a high pressure fuel pump and your pretty much done.

The big thing that had me worried about it before was that it needed to control the timing inorder to time the spray of fuel, but apparantly it doesnt! (its not just this system either, holley system does the same).  now that i think about it. it makes sense.  All the system needs is a pulse from the coil ground (tach pickup) to work.  A carb constantly is sucking in and and is constantly spitting our air/fuel to the engine (lets be simple and say it does and ignore the physics of sonic reversions).  When the Ignition coil sends a signal, it only has 1 more complete rotation until its starting to suck in air and fuel again.  and at 9,000rpm that will take..well..a very short amount of time.

I guess my point is, looking at the site many people have adapted it to old bikes (xs1100, couple bonnevilles), so it can't be that hard.  Oh..one thing i just read.  for the megasquirt its either an all at once shot of fuel (all 8 on a v-8, etc), or it will shoot half and half (4 and 4, or in our case, 1 and 1).  this might help you understand better what im working with:

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/bstoddar/extwir.gif

Thats off the megasquirt site.  But seeing as we only have two injectors, we can get them to trigger independently, so i was thinking that if you could hook up both coils to the ECU without sending a signal back to the other coil (would diodes work here?), depending on the timing it might actually work out with the injector timing.

Silicon toad,
Would there really be a need for two MAP sensors?  As best as i can remember on setups ive seen on hotrods, most people just tap into one of the intake runners(true they are connected).  but if you just took a reading from one intake port, wouldnt it essentially be the same with both (so you can use only one).  Thinking about it, basically if you used two map sensors, you'd nearly be running two independent systems (two different sets of variables). 

thanks for the input guys...  Tomorrow at work (work..haha..i just surf the internet all day and wait for people to post on here so i can reply).. i'm going to see about reading the megasquirt manual so i can get more definate info on if it would work for us.  i must say this has made me quite excited...

Oh.. also...a quick look on ebay found that using throttle bodys of an R1 would solve a good 75% of the setup problem (injector, throttle body, Throttle position sensor (from a quick look at a random auction) :)

so the question now is... would retrofitting the vision with fuel injection for under $500 be worth it? (tomorrow ill figure out more realistically it would cost and report back )


Thanks for everyone not calling me crazy at once,  ;D

Blake

[Lucky]

hmm, how about tapping it into the YICS port?

[QBS]

You are not crazy at all.  You are most excellent.  If it weren't for the dreamers amonst us, a fast horse would still be the hot set up.  Cheers.

[Walt_M.]

Just want to mention that I finally got an electric fuel pump. I got it on ebay and it is from a Yamaha R6. As it is a used pump, I wanted to test it but remembered some old info. Never 'bench test' an electric fuel pump! The armature runs in gas which can ignite if there is air in it. I don't know how long mine has been off the bike but, when I put my air hose on it, gas came out! Just be careful out there.
Not sure what I'm going to do with it, I have a rebuild kit for the Vision fuel pump but the TDM uses a vacuum fuel pump too.

[silicon_toad2000]

I'm with lucky, i think the YICS would be the best source of constant vacuum, i think the manifold reading would fluctuate too much for the computer to figure out whats going on.

[Lucky]

Actually i meant the YICS ports as a place for the injectors...
Hey Blake, what do you think about exhaust throttles?

Ok, i'm not all that serious about that, i just wanted to keep you awake at night & make you nuts! lol  :D

[Blake]

Exhaust Throttles? 

You mean like the Ex-up valves on new R-1's?

I wonder if they have them on r-6's too.


Problem solved  ;D



Dumb internet here is crapping out again, so i couldnt post a link to a cheap auction for one :)


Blake

[jasonm.]

Just to think how far some people will go to get a Vision to run better. When properly set stock carbs do well. If not, there may be other issues??? If someone has the $$. I believe VMax or 1300 Venture carbs may fit in our Visions. These are 35mm CV downdraft carbs. I have a Venture. But I am not prepared to remove the carbs for measuring purposes.

[Coil Coyle]

Ahhh.. Come on, Jason... LOL ;D

:o if your Venture doesn't have any carbs and there is half of a set on your VisionYou know you are a Visionary... :-\
I wonder why we couldn't just find a complete multiport car system off of some small car. Not use the injector circuits we don't need
Maybe play with fuel rail pressure from a bigger cylinder system?
A cam position sensor would be easy with the camcover we have.

coil

[jasonm.]

Don't forget the temp sensors for oil,and coolant. Also the high pressure fuel pump and altitude sensor that most have. Hey, just strip a newer Suzi SV650 twin of all it's parts and have someone recalibrate it for ours. Ya Ya that's it.....

[Blake]

Wow..

I was thinking Cheap.  you guys are getting too high tech on me with big words like "cam position sensors," "altitude sensors," and "oil pressure sensors."

The big red "oh Sh*t" warning light was always good to me  ;D


But seriously...Ive decided im going to put faith in my soldering skills and try the Megasquirt system since ive read only good things about it (from the competent..now..the incompetant..dont get me started "why doesnt it start up the first time?")   I know it doesnt have high tech things like cam timing sensors, but reading up on it, it seems itll definately be an improvement over the stock carbs...but one can only hope :)


I really need to get a 2nd job :)

Blake

[Coil Coyle]

 ???
http://www.mbesystems.com/
:-\
I sent them a request for information :P

Why not?

coil

[Blake]

Hey Guys,


So i found out a new thing about this megasquirt.  theres a new version that can control ignition too...(fully programmable by computer too)..

From a quick skim over that section, it can be triggered by a hall effect pickup (magnets) or by reading teeth on a gear, etc.  some sort of pickup like that.

Now im at work right now so i dont have any of my manuals handy..  but how is our ignition timing set up?  i know theres a big ole magnet on the outside of the flywheel (or is it the inside) that obviously triggers the pickup mounted on the engine cover...  so why couldn't that be used? does anyone that have a manual handy see if there is any information on the ignition timing?  i know theres a timing advance chart in the back somewhere, but i dont remember if theres any other information about the pickup.


Who knows.. it may be viable :)...first and foremost, fuel control..then I'll figure out that damn ignition sooner or later :)

Blake

[Blake]

Quick information page on the subject

http://www.msefi.com/msinfo/ms2/Ignition.htm

one thing i noticed..it says at the top "MegaSquirt-II V1.000 has the ability to control a variety of ignitions which have 1 coil and a mechanical distributor to distribute spark (such as the GM 7-pin HEI module), as well as the Ford EDIS ignition. "

but ive seen that many motorcycles have been converted to use this megasquirt ignition system (triumph bonneville, xs1100, etc).. so it has to be possible..



just trying to get you scratching your heads.



Blake