Riders Of Vision

Hi all

The saga of my non starting Vision continues. I'm found the problem however, but don't know the cure. This all started after doing the oil cooler mod. Each time I start the bike it turns over twice and stops.
Could be the starter?, but I suspected that the oil somehow locking the crank. I've just disconnected the pipe  after the cooler where it enters the filter housing. Start the bike, bike runs fine and pumps out oil beautifully. Problem with this is now I have a constant loss oil system!. I then connected the pipe back up and same story. Runs 2-3 times and stalls.

Could it be something about the oil pressure valve not letting the oil through, the oil then backs up through the oil cooler and locks the motor? Perhaps the oil cooler with all the pipes is reducing the oil pressure enough for this to happen? Also strangely when it stops it takes a while for the neural liht to come back on again.

I've just got no ideas on this and am even buying a 50cc moped so I can get to work!

HELP!

??? ??? ??? ??? ???

ok, lets start from the beginning:
look at the pic below, note the two areas circled in green.  The top one is where the bypass passage goes, it cannt be covered by the extention pipe.

if there was a blockage in the cooler, it should bypass oil thru the valve & dump it back into the sump...

the bottom green circle is where there is a plug on the case COVER.  Do Not use this one.  it must be the one above the starter.

examine your cooler very carefully, is it possable that there is some kind of valve built into the cooler, fittings or lines? or the lines collapsed, (even if there was & it was closed, the oil should still go thru the bypass & back into the sump)

another suggestion, you might not like, is reassemble it & try it without the filter, or use a long hose (pipe?) and just bypass the cooler completely.

you did install the plug i sent in the passage that enters the filter right?

i'll let you know if i think of anything else.. (like i'm gonna sleep tonight...)

Quote from: Glyn on March 04, 2006, 08:14:35 PM
Could it be something about the oil pressure valve not letting the oil through, the oil then backs up through the oil cooler and locks the motor?

not possable, if you follow the path of oil in the diagram below, the oil does not go thru any valve UNLESS there is a blockage.

when I did the mod, I actually ground down the fitting near the starter to make it shorter so I knew there wouldn't be any blockage.

do you have a thermostat (built in or exterior)?
never mind, that wouldn't be it, you said oil pumps out beautifully after the cooler

my wife just came up with another idea (seriously, she's not really mechanical, everything she knows about engines she learned from me, but i can explane an engine part to her & she'll understand)?

I explaned your situation to her & she asked if the bypass valve could be broken or corroded shut (stuck closed)? I explaned that was improbable since it's an internal engine part, constantly bathed in oil. things like that usually look almost new. Also, oil should still flow thru the cooler even if the valve were stuck closed.

BUT...IF there is some internal blockage in the cooler, AND there was a problem with the valve, then the oil system could block up...

have you had that engine side cover off? have you had the valve out?

Also, could you blow thru the cooler assembly (lines & all) before you installed it? (did you try?) it should be very easy to do.? try blowing it out with compressed air too (in both directions), but you should be able to blow thru it.

I keep saying to you guys, if you think you have one problem with the bike, expect to find two...

--Lucky

Quote from: Night Vision on March 04, 2006, 10:07:37 PM
do you have a thermostat (built in or exterior)?

Excellent point!!, some coolers have a thermostaticly controlled bypass valve built in.  oil bypasses the cooler 'till the oil warms up, allowing oil into the cooler.  did you have to block off anything on the cooler or lines before you used it?  look it over closely...

here's a (probably stupid) thought..... oil filter in backwards!!!

Sorry to create this headache!

I also thought the cooler could have some type of valve/blockage in it. I took a clean saucepan, disconnected the line after the cooler at the point it connects to the filter housing. Started first hit of the button, ran like a gem, pumping nice clean, expensive synthetic into the pan. No signs of swarf, dirt or anything. Pipe back on (with hoseclip),
re filled the oil, with no oil filter fitted (also thought that may be the prob), 2 turns of the motor and she stops. The alloy plug is located nice and tight just where it should be. The problem has to between the oil filter housing and the sump / oil pump. Somehow the oil just cannot get through there.  Before fitting the cooler there was no oil pressure issues, so whatever is inside those cases was working OK.
I did not shorten at all the brass fitting that scews into the tapped hole just next to the starter. Is it possible I have blocked a passage? Even if it is pumping out oil from this point, through the cooler and out again into the saucepan?

Hi, Glyn,
It seems to be an absolutely "impossible"coincidence of problems. To have your present symptoms there must be blockades at two locations: behind the oil filter and also before the oil cooler at the pressure relief valve. And that are two locations outside the changes you made for the oil cooler mod!
That would mean this would also have happened without the oil cooler installation. Seems highly improbable!
One thing seems sure for me: either the passage to your pressure relief valve is blocked by the plug for the oil delivery to the oil cooler, or the pressure relief valve does not open at a pressure high enough to block your engine. Both seems to be possible in theory.
Point two: the blockage behind the oil filter. If the blocking plug there is not blocking the entrance of oil to the engine, the problem would be in the engine itself.
Because oil via the oil cooler is entering the oil filter cover (up to there it is OK, only problem: the relieve valve does not open), I would concentrate on finding the blockage behind the oil filter. That probably would involve taking the right crankase cover off to inspect oil passages behind the oil filter cover. Perhaps "something" ended up in the passage behind the oil filter while you inserted the blocking plug in the other passage, to the right.
I wish you success with solving this head-aching situation!
My two eurocents....
XZv2? ? ?

Glyn, what kind of bike did the oil cooler & lines come from?

XZ2V is basicly saying the same thing as me, it has to be 2 blockages, one in the cooler/lines/fittings & one thru the relief valve.

try this to prove the valve works:

block the output fitting over the starter as close to the engine as you can.? if the relief valve works, the engine should still crank over.

you aren't running it with the oil lines disconnected are you???

Don't worry, we will figure this out, there are only so many possabilities.

No Lucky, we partly say the same thing. The blockage must be after the cooler and oil filter because Glyn says: "I took a clean saucepan, disconnected the line after the cooler at the point it connects to the filter housing. Started first hit of the button, ran like a gem, pumping nice clean, expensive synthetic into the pan."

He took out the oil filter also, therefor I think the blockage must be after the oil filter, from where it enters the right side crancase cover. I assume that the connection at the oil filter cannot be blocked because Glyn took that line off, and would see if the entrance in the filter cover is blocked.

Therefore I suggest to check first what is behind the oil filter cover. Perhaps "something" is stuck in the oil passages behind the filter.

By the way, one other observation: the oil cooler and lines to and from it are really perfect if they can sustain the full oil pressure that the oil pump can deliver!
XZv2

i stand corrected.

Hi, Glyn, Lucky,
As far as I can see, there are two problems. The most important seems to be to me that something is preventing oil access to Glyn's precious crankase bearings and other expensive engine parts. First and foremost find and take away that blockage so those parts get again the blessing of (synthetic) oil.

Point 2: for one reason or another the pressure relief valve of the oil system is not working properly. I see this (but I may be wrong because too high pressure may damage oil seals, but I guess the oil pressure is not too crazy high; otherwise Glyn's oil cooler would burst open probably, I guess...) as a less important problem than feeding oil to the engine parts.
Perhaps the relief valve is just now stuck, but at the moment that the engine warms up completely, vibrates at 10.000 revs, etc, it may start opening again. Would be worthwhile to have an oil pressure meter for such situations, by the way.
My two eurocents, XZv2

Glyn, is it possable that there was something in the cooler (besides oil) when you installed it?

did you ever run it without a filter previously?

when you tapped the hole over the starter, how did you prevent chips from entering the side passage leading to the relief valve?

We're thinking (thanks XZV2)

Quote from: Glyn on March 04, 2006, 08:14:35 PM


Could it be something about the oil pressure valve not letting the oil through, the oil then backs up through the oil cooler and locks the motor? Perhaps the oil cooler with all the pipes is reducing the oil pressure enough for this to happen? Also strangely when it stops it takes a while for the neural liht to come back on again.

HELP!

??? ??? ??? ??? ???

Glyn,
? ? ? ? ? Could you have connected the neutral light wire to the oil pressure switch, and Vice Versa?
? ? ? ? ?
$0.02
???

coil

good possibility! & that started to ring a bell in my head too, but i got sidetracked (pretty girl walked by...)

makes sense, if the nuetral switch is connected to the oil pressure sender, then perhaps the safty interlock relay is cutting the power when oil pressure builds!!

& yes, it is possable to swap the connectors on those two.

coil steps back & has 'clear vision!'   :D

looking at my wiring diagram, that HAS to be it!!
Dam Glyn i'd call you on the phone right now & wake you up if i had your number...
A big DOH! to me...

Hi, Coil & Lucky,
It can cut the power, but I doubt that that can stop cranking the engine.
Perhaps it won't fire up, but stopping the starter motor turning more than 2 revs? That would imply it cuts all power?! Certainly in Euro bikes that does not happen if you interchange these wires. I did it once myself. Bike was running but strange behaviour of the red en green light.
My 2 eurocents, XZv2

the safty interlock will cut power to the starter relay if the neutral switch is open.? the oil pressure switch is normaly closed with the bike off (light on) but opens as pressure builds (light off)

if the neutral wire is hooked to the pressure switch, then the starter solinoid will get power until the engine cranks enough to built pressure that will open the oil switch (2 cranks, wired properly, the light will then go off) when the switch opens, wired backwards, the starter solinoid will lose power.

Glen did his Stator too, AT THE SAME TIME so he had that cover off & those wires disconnected.

i don't use a pressure switch, i removed & pluged mine because i have a pressure guage inline with the cooler now, so i didn't think ogf it...
--Lucky

Thank you for the explanation, Lucky! In my black and gold bike I did the same thing, but the bike was working correctly. Probably this safety device had been removed by a previous owner or Euro bikes don't have it. These versions also do not have the sidestand safety device.
Again, thank you, I hope Glyn will confirm that the problem is solved in this easy way!
XZv2

Sounds like we are testing with then oil hose disconnected. Can you say " future spun bearing" ? When ever blockages are possible. ALWAYS temperarily substitute w/ Clear hose. Then viewing the oil flow is easy.

Quote from: Lucky on March 05, 2006, 06:59:17 AM
you aren't running it with the oil lines disconnected are you???

not nesacarily, i started my bike up when i first had it a month or so with a crankcase full of fuel (didn't know any better & pluged a leaky overflow the night before) & ran it for about 20 seconds before i figured out what was wrong.  thankfully everything has been ok. (& my oil window is really clean)

Hi, Lucky,
Ironically, in the other thread started by Glyn, I advised to jump the solenoid (because Glyn mistrusted the solenoid) by directly connecting battery+ and starter motor.
That test also would have demonstrated that the oil pressure did not stop the engine, but that it is something electrical, and not the starter motor.
Coil, my respect for your cleverness and thinking in the right direction!
XZv2

Wakie Wakie Glyn, it's 6:30 in the morning there, 18 C & slightly overcast.  dress warm, hook your cooler back up, top off the oil, switch those wires around and go to work!  ;D
--Lucky

Quote from: Glyn on March 05, 2006, 02:41:19 AM
I did not shorten at all the brass fitting that scews into the tapped hole just next to the starter.

You mean ABOVE the starter right? if it was to the left of the starter, that's the wrong plug...

Phew, you guys are legendary. You just never give up.

I'll do the wire check, as well as taking a peek into that b----dy little hole after the filter. No I ran it with a fresh filter
when it first started to do this. It is possible that something has detached from the filter and got sucked in. I think removing the right hand cover is probably needed. Please tell me I don'r have to drain all the coolant and oil again!!!

When I take it off (prob this weekend), what should I be looking for and checking? Is that  pressure relief valve accessable with the cover off, and can it be checked for operation before I bolt all back together again?

Thanks again everyone. I'll let you know how I go on the above after the w/e.

Have a good one.

Glyn

GET THAT COIL MAN A BIG CIGARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
(not a Cuban, unless you're Arnie of course).

Too late to start the bike - kids in bed, BUT ignition on, bike into gear, red light goes out, green light stays on. DUH.....

Some one here is feeling pretty stupid! 

Will put filter back in re connect wires and keep you updated.

It's good for other people to discover these things...

Thanks a milion guys.

PHEW.
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D ;)

Glyn,
? ? ? ? ?My apologies for waiting so long to read your thread.

? ? ? ? ?Thanks for the offer of a cigar, but I only smoked tobacco once, a cigarette.

? ? ? ? ?My buddy had just got home from Viet Nam, he had been explaining that Cigarette smoke was like the air you breath on a clear day in the mountains compared to some herb we had been sharing. I smoked one of his Winstons in two Tokes, each held as long as I could, commenting between hits that he was right about the smoothness.
? ? ? ? ?I marveled at how smooth it was and enjoyed the laugh they were having on my performance right before the room began to slowly rotate...
? ? ? ? ?I remember trying to stop the room from spinning by holding onto my wife with both hands. That failed, I ran to the porcelin altar and hollered "RAAALLLPHHH" for hours.
? ? ? ? ?Everyone else had a great laugh the first hour or so, then they became bored and went home. I was told this by my wife when I regained conciousness hours later, head still in the commode and still hollering "EEHRGHRAALLLFFFFP"!
? ? ? ? ?Buy your wife a flower she likes and plant it in the yard, we'll be even...? ?
:-X :o ;) coil
? ? ? ? ?