Stator - extra tasty crispy - alternates avail??

[SteelViper383]

Hi, I am new to the new ROV forum, I was a member of the old one a year or so back though.  I am just getting back to working on my bike and have gotten a lot done, but its come down to the stator.  Mine was charcoal when I pulled it out, and the oil smelled burned so I know that is trash.  I was reading the stator FAQ and say something in there about using a Honda or Kaw. stator instead.  I like this idea cuz I can get a used (good cond.) Kaw. KZ550 stator for $10.  Which is more what I want to spend rather than $125 for a used vision or $140 for a new from electrex.  I guess my question here is how much of the other bikes system do I need?? The $10 is just for the stator, not the pickups or anything else.  Do I need the Kaw pickups?  Are mine likely fried along w/ the stator?  Also IS there a way I can test the Reg/Rec and if that is toast are there any I can use from other bikes??  I'm trying to do this as cheaply as possible, because I am quickly approaching the price I paid for the bike in repairs.

Thanks in advance,
        Jace

[Lucky]

Generally speaking you shouldn't need to touch the pick-up's unless the stator wires got so hot they melted the pick-up wires also.
as to weather a stator is all you need, follow the Electrex Fault finding chart so that all the oter components of the charging system can be tested as well.
--Lucky

[Shwuz]

Oooh, I almost got caught by this one too...

I read it again, and it's actually the regulator/rectifier that you can swap out with the honda/kaw, not the stator...

"For reg./rect.replacement,throw the yamaha part in trash,go to salvage yard,use either Honda or Kaw."

You'll probably have to bite the bullet and buy a replacement...  And Rick's doesn't carry re-wound stators anymore, only new.  But their price is only like $132 for a new one, with shipping.

Lesson I learned the hard way yesterday:  When replacing stator, don't over-tighten the three stator bolts!  They WILL break, and finding a replacement plus extracting the old stud is a pain in the A$$!

To test the reg./rect. go to www.electrexusa.com and follow their fault-finding flow chart.  I'd never touched a multimeter before this bike, and now I look like an electrical genius!

[SteelViper383]

Hey, thanks for catching that I I wonder if I would have fried anything... Being as cheap as I am I was wondering if there is any way to rewind the stator by one's self.  I'm sure if we could figure this out it might save alot of people alot of money.  I just read a page about rewinding a dirt bike stator to produce higher output, so does anyone think it would be possible to just strip off all the old windings from a fried vision stator, clean it up and rewind it with new magnetic wire??  It doesn't seem to complicated, but I'm not sure about the necessary specs to meet for an accurate job.  If anyone has any ideas about this it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
    Jace

[Lucky]

I've seen articals about DIY stator rewinding, but i'll tell you, that's probably something you should plan on doing twice...

along with the poss of getting it wrong the first time, an improperly wound stator has the potential to dammage a reg/rec.  i suppose it's a 'bravery factor', but something like that i think i'd leave to the guys with a lot of experience in that sort of thing.  

it's nerve wracking enough just getting the F*%#$ing  cover on so it doesn't leak oil, lol  no mater how careful i am, i allways seem to catch the damm gasket on something.

--Lucky

[ArrrGeee]

rewinding would definately be tricky, you'll need to find the
proper guage and type wire first and then carefully unwind
your own making diagrams etc. not for the uninitiated.


as a reference tho' Electrex has a chart which lists a few other bikes that use the same stator.
 you may get lucky and find a decent one of these cheaply at the boneyard....

 here is the chart.

[Humber]

YEs, I sent this info to Lucky few weeks ago but it got unanswered. Anyway, u see, few bikes USE the same stators. Not only electrex codes on those items are the same but also YAMAHA ones. (just look on bikebandit page)

So why a particular stator can SERVE a long time in VIRAGO535 while putting it in Vision will fry it immediately??????

So I assume Vision stators are not of bad quality as some people suggest here since they can serve in Viragos without any problems. Think that the bug with our charging system should be looked in different place.

Connecters - maybe they help BUT every motorcycle charging system I observed lately HAS connectors and it doesn't harm in any way!!!

So what is the problem???? OIL COOLING, why oil cooling since for example TDM850 or V11000 don't have OIL cooler. The temperature of oil that goes to the stator is probably the same as in our bikes.

I don't think it will be ever possible to cure our system, and sometimes I wonder why I am keeping this BIKE.

Anyway SteelViper said that his stator is BLACK. I can't remember mine to be of any different colour apart from BLACK.
I saw few Vision stators on net and they were black too. I made a lot of kms on it and it is charging perfectly - although I wait the Final Judgment:):)


Al in all, WHY DO U KEEP THAT BIKES, in my conditions it is somehow justified - I have no money for a better bike. But your case is different. U spent a lot of bucks on keeping it alive and u still have money to buy another bike which will serve YOU without any problems - I dream of XJ900.

What is the motivation of keeping an old XZ550 in your case????

[ArrrGeee]

The question being "Why do I keep the Vision?"

heh, heh, top ten reasons why The Vision Rocks....
( with apologies to Dave Letterman )

number ten: low maintenance shaft drive, no chain to
fly off and amputate your leg.

number nine: when they were new, you could race it, right out of the box and do well. ( the first one I owned, I bought it
from a guy who raced it. the bike was completely safety-wired
and he had finished second and third pretty consistantly without any major modification to the bike. )

number eight:techno-geeks(like myself) love them, because
when they were new, it was one of the most high tech piece of motorcycling you could buy. Why do you think they called it a Vision?

number seven: water-cooled engines are just smarter.

number six: way back when they were new, one of the reviews I read suggested that it was a canyon carvers dream.
( ie. the handling is quite good.) More importantly, I feel that Yamaha built the Vision for me (or guy's like me) who are racing fans but know enough to keep them separate.
don't get me wrong, I like to go fast on the street, but
riding a race-replica all day would certainly be painful on longer trips.

number five: smaller. lighter and cheaper than an FJR1300 Sport Tourer.  I'm waiting for a smaller FJR600 or FJR700 thats better suited to my size. ( 5'7, 148 lbs )

number four: V-Twin power, tons of torque, leaves harley riders in the dust at stoplights. :) not bad for a little 550.

number three: gotta love that fairing, on long trips, it keeps you pretty well protected, fairly dry in wet weather, has great heat on cold day's, and just makes the bike look that much better. ( there are many bikes with fairings these days
but I can't say whether they are as nice as the visions. )

number two: price. While I wouldn't mind running out to
 buy the latest ricky-racer, I don't have 10,000 bucks for a
 new Yamaha or Ducati, I paid 500 bucks for my current bike.
 It needed the starter fixed and the starter clutch replaced.
 The guy who owned it was disgusted with the bike and had
 no idea how to fix it.

And Finally Number one:
Where else could I hang out with such a cool group of guys who have great taste in bikes like myself...  ;D


There are other reasons as well, like for example,
I've always been loyal to Yamaha because they are a
top quality company in just about everything they make.

for example, Ford turned to Yamaha to design the top end
for their SHO performance engine (which has YICS btw. )

 or how about Kenny Roberts, he dominated motorcycle racing
 for many years, along with guys like, Eddie Lawson, Randy
 Mamola, Giacomo Agostini and Wayne Rainey.

btw. if your a racing fan, read Kenny's book, it's awesome.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0905138511/qid=1027872666/sr=8-9/ref=sr_8_9/002-5781471-1639206

or Wayne Rainey's
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=28ZNUFLT8M&isbn=1859604013

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1859604013/qid=1027876258/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/002-5781471-1639206


lastly, as far as reliability goes, hey the bike is 20 years old
ANY bike that is 20 years old is going to have the typical
problems with electrical, fuel systems, gunked up carbs, rust etc. Think about your american automobile (for those if us in the us.) and how much maintenance and repair
that thing needs. Virtually every american car made in the 80's was garbage and didn't last the decade.

One unfortunate thing about the Japanese fuel tanks is that
the metal used is very thin and is not the greatest quality steel.
Had they designed the bike to last 20 or 30 years, they would have used more alloy's and stainless steel in the construction. but that would have doubled the cost of the bike making it unsellable. It's all a compromise really.

as you can probably tell by now, I still like my Vision...
if that changes, then I'll move on to something else.



-Ron

[Humber]

Hi, I really appreciate your comment on my question. I agree completely with all what u say. Moreover, my point is very similar to yours. I look at our V from very practical point of view.

But Unfortunately I can't agree with your last words. I can understand that after 20 years of operation u can have some trouble wiht your favourite ride, and I do understand that Vision is a special bike - ONE can't find such a small tourer with fairing even today 'cos even HONDA DEaville (i don't know if I wrote it correctly) offers you only half-fairing.

BUT STATOR question is really pain in the ASS and it is Vision weakness since the beginnig.
Yes the Vision was INNOVATIVE but it was the first bike of this type and Yamaha failed their customers in a way .

Why a lot of people here (anyway in Poland there were no Visions then, it is understandable) say that they bought a Vision just after the reduction of prices??????

Because they new that those all new stuff like YICS was not worth the money they paid - the bike was simply FAULTY.

Find for example any XJ750 SECA (actually one owned by my friend with YICS) which is causing this STATOR problems??? or any problems - there are no problems although it is 20 too!!!

Ron, to tell the truth I like MY bike but what I have in exchange???????

In fact I am afraid to go anywhere, I can't plan any trip abroad, I can't EVEN go (I dream of) to Germany to European Rally of VISIONs!!!!! WHY?????

BECAUSE it is not only my having the same dilemmas???

The question always is: Will I reach my destination??? Who will take my bike from the road if it fails??????

And probably no one except for people owning V in Germany can go to the meeting, all of us are afraid about that DAMN Charging which is unpredictable. U can even have electrex stator and after 1000 miles one can encounter very unpleasant surprise.

I am user of V for 2 years. I like this bike as much as u. Imagine, I have no any wages, salary or etc, and every money I wangle is spent on Vision - without any regret. Anyway u see the pictures of my bike - it clean and shines, every details are ship-shaped.

But why to own the bike if I can't trust it??????? Come on RON, what sense it makes - I am proud of my possesion that is kept in my garage but I can't even show it to people even in POLAND!!!!!!!  I would like to go to national bike meetings and prove anybody that my V as unique and ONLY XZ550 in POLAND that works without its specific problems.

WHY, because I found this site where  people  won't fail, will help every time I need - but it is not the same with my bike.

And my last words are, even if u put a lot of work in your XZ550  u can't rely on it. So where is the sens of keepeing even 30 years V if you can't show off on far-away meetings??????

Only keep it garage (I will do it anyway, I wont sell it) while riding for exaplme XJ900???????? I don't know.

[ArrrGeee]

Humber,
I appreciate what you're saying about reliability
being a major issue. ?I guess I've been lucky, after owning 2
Visions over 15 years, I've never had a stator fail.

While the design may in fact be faulty, there has to be
an answer, in terms of making it reliable.

lets talk about what would make a stator break down and/or
short. ?heat or load. Does the Vision run hotter than any other bike? maybe, but it's water cooled, so adding something like an oil cooler would be a waste of time and probably not
make any difference. adjusting your thermostat to run a couple of degrees cooler might help in the long run but could
hurt something else on the bike.

There are obviously quite a few other bikes using this stator so lets look at the differences. Is it the fact that it's in an oil bath? some of the bikes listed have the stator in an oil bath and some do not. If you're trying to compare a seca to a vision, that is a faulty comparison, the Seca has a different stator and it is not a wet alternator. It's my understanding that both Shadows and Virago's blow stators almost as much as the vision. There are other bikes that have stator problems,
Gold-Wings & the Suzuki GS models are notorious...

http://www.thegsresources.com/garage/gs_statorfacts.htm

http://www.viragoownersclub.org/ts_9.htm

http://www.wtvl.net/n1rzc/stator/stator.htm

http://www.epinions.com/auto-review-6267-36A0FEE4-3A493E80-prod5

http://www.turbomotorcycles.org/Members/TechHelp_Honda_Stator.html

http://www.txwingz.com/images/removal.doc

http://home.online.no/~storerud/tips.htm#Charging

http://www.troutman.org/vfr/rrsurvey/

possibly the Vision's charging system is not rated correctly,
meaning that the amount of amps needed to adequately supply the needs of the motorcycle is not enough.
According to the service manual, the alternator only puts out about 20 amps. ?I'm not an engineer, but with a bit of math and adding up the components rating should give an idea what the requirments are. as a comparison, a CX500 puts out 28 amps, a new Buell blast puts out 25 amps and a new Mottoguzzi also puts out 25 amps, so while it possibly is a bit underpowered, it's not likely to be the complete problem.

http://www.harpermotoguzzi.com/2002california_special_sport.htm

btw if you read through these articles as well as the stuff that leather has up here: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JET_AV8R/Vision/Stator/Stator.html

you will find one recurring theme and that is connections, connections, connections.
here is a piece about the honda stator connector that sounds
vaugely familiar...
http://www.turbomotorcycles.org/Members/TechHelp_Honda_ACG.html

It also stands to reason that just because you don't hear about all these other bikes having stator problems, it
doesn't mean that they're not. Some searching around on
the internet with the word stator yields some interesting
results. Many of the bikes for sale state that the stator
has been replaced in the ad.

So in summary what we're finding is that yes the vision alternator is a bit underpowered, not a problem in itself,
and yes it runs in an oil bath, not really a great choice but certainly a contributing factor and lastly questionable connections. It's evident that all three of these combined
are what make it seem less reliable than it should be.

My feeling is this, if you go through all the connectors and clean or solder them up, plus make sure all the components
are in decent shape, especially your battery, you'll probably
be ok. do some voltage drop checks around your bike and you'll probably find that your grounds need cleaning up as well as some of those connections in the fuse box ( does anyone still have the original fuse box on their bike?)

on the lighter side, you could do what a few industrious
gold-wing owners have done, bolt a complete alternator
right to the side of the engine, I lost the link but I'll find it later and post it. pretty funny actually.

Later,
 -Ron


there are at least a couple, here is one...
http://www.eaznet.com/~pcm/altern.html

[Humber]

I saw this mod once, and Polish riders often do sth like that in very old russian bikes like DNIEPR, URAL, M.

Stil POlish bike JUNAK was very falty as regard charging - the same mod was used.

Ron, I don't compare XJ750 in respect of STATOR.

I wanted only to say that he bought this Bike it Switzerland about 4 years ago and he didn't spent a buck on it.

The matter is different with me, I have always sth to do, Actually this week I will exchange my fork springs and do final job to the carb.

But again, u know, one can't change an opinion on Vision in POland.

"What bike are u riding???"

XZ550

"Oh shit, man, get RID of it, your stator will die in a moment!!!"

It is what I hear everytime when I meet someone new in my life, or on the motorcycle chats.

And I don't know why but it is actually our Vision which is the most famous as regards charging issues - at last in Poland.

Hmmmmmmmmm, Ron, but what about that ELECTREX stator, what is the output 20 or 25 AMps????

Does anybody here strenghtened their stators???? What are the results?????

And still I will watch Virgaos 535 specs, I will check what is the output in this bike (although stator is the same rec. is different, I don't know if that is the case!!!)


And Ron, I don't know whether it is true or old wifes tale but one electrician told me that in our case it would be good to use a lot of POwer from the STATOR, so the regulator doesn't work so hard, thats why I have 100W light bulb + 75W small "???Halogen????" bulb.

I don't know what do u think about that???? Still have no stator problems, but anyway could u comment, or maybe it would be better to change sth???

Bye, thaks for conversation!!!

[Lucky]

Humber, I agree with Ron, keeping the Vision's charging system in good shape is your best defense.  

also realise that these people you meet who say "whoa, get rid of it, the stator will fail" probably are not informed about the fix for the problem.  clean connectors should be considered normal maintenance on ANY bike, not just the vision.

--Lucky

[Jace Rhaods]

Hi all, I have as of now successfully unwound and diagrammed the stator.  When I get something nicer than my greasy hand drawing I will post it.  Suffice it to say, it has 18 arms, each having only one of the three wire on it wound 29 times.  The wires alternate 1 - 2 - 3 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 1...  around the stator arms and are connected together at the end.  I think what happens when the stator "burns up" is that both the epoxy insulating the stator arms and the enamel coating on the wire deteriorate and allow the wires to short to the stator frame and then through the screws to the engine case and finally to ground.  So all I have to do is get some magnet wire 18 AWG for those interested you will need about 110' of unbroken wire.  Also I need to get some epoxy to insulate things with.   There is a online company http://www.mouser.com that has both, the wire #501-MW18H-1LB is ~$9.08  and the epoxy #517-2216-TR is ~$19.76.  I think with the help of a bench vice and a pair of needle nose vice grips I will be easily able to rewind it.  I am curious about one thing, the Electrex stator says that theirs has higher output, and I was wondering about putting an extra turn or two on each arm to up the output.  If anybody has any ideas let me know.

Thanks,
     Jace

[SteelViper383]

Hey, sorry About the above, I thought I was logged in but I guess I wasn't.  In any case that was me.  

Jace

[Lucky]

I'm not sure of the facts on this, (some help huh?) but i remember reading once that it was wire length, not turns that counted.  i'm guessing that means length around the stator, not length including leads out of the case.

[Humber]

HI Ron and everybody, Y see we have another normal stator failure on the FORUM, huh I wonder when my will die!!!

It will be really a problem since I have no money for electrex,

I am gonne to post the topic at wap parts.

I will be very grateful if someone could leave me a stator and rectifier - poor Vision owner Hahaha

Don't RIDE your Vs KEEp THEM in GARAGEs - it is the best way to make your stator LIVE FOREVER!!!!!

[ArrrGeee]

Jace,
 just a word of caution on the stator wire; it needs to be
 very high temp rated wire, automotive wire will not work
 and will short out in a very short period of time.
 
 as far as extra windings go, I believe that there is a formula
 that you would use to guage how many turns are necc. for a given output. or more specifically the actual wire length needed.

in my opinion, what you would want to do is find out what the current wire is rated at in terms of temp and then try and go for a higher temp rating. This of course may not be that easy
but it's worth a try.

good luck and let us know how you make out.

-Ron

[George R. Young]

I haven't rewound a stator yet (waiting for the next one to fail) but I found a site which deals with the temperature tolerance of stator wire, see

http://www.mwswire.com/inschar.htm

[QQBS]

Ron, thank you so much for putting it just the way I feel.  I certainly couldn't have said it better or even as well.

My '83 went through four stators in about twelve years.  I was getting about 8 to 10 k miles per unit with a continously deteriorating connector.  By the death of the fourth unit, the connector was unusable and I was forced to hardwire.  That was about 7 years and 40k miles ago with no further problems.  Additionally, the fifth unit was a cheap ($125.00) piece from an unknown supplier.

Regarding heat:  As I have previously reported, three years ago I took an extended late summer tour to Southern California from my home in Houston TX.  5000 miles in 14 days.  Much of this riding was done in temps that exceeded 100 degrees F. at very high sustained RPM (7500 to 8500).  There was even one period in the Mohave Desert where I allowed the temp guage touch the red zone before I backed down to 6500 rpm to allow the engine to cool.  These extreem situations also included much stop and start traffic under very hot conditions.  Bottom line: Zero charging problems then or now.  One final detail: I've been running a 130w/100w bulb for the last ten years at least.

Also Ron: While an FJR1300 is incredable, don't hold your breath waiting for a smaller version.  But I sure hope I'm wrong.

Cheers!!

[QQBS]

One more item to report.  In response to Rons inquirey regarding OEM fuse holders:  I still have mine in good shape.  Just keep it bright and shiney and lightly greased.

BTW: my bike has always been garaged.  Maybe this a factor in corrosion related problems.