Intermittent starter... maybe solenoid?

[skucera]

Yesterday on the way home from work I had the oddest flame-out while waiting at a light, and the starter didn't work either.  I pushed my bike out of the center turn lane to a driveway at the side of the road, called a tow truck, and waited.  Actually, every few minutes another coworker drove by, then looped around to ask me if I was all right, which was reassuring.

Anyway, being a fidgety, impatient test engineer, after a while I turned the key to the ON position, flipped the switch to RUN, and pushed the starter button.  It didn't do anything for a moment, then it gave one slow WHUMPF of a turnover, then another, then the motor just miraculously started.  I didn't question the motorcycle gods... I cancelled the tow truck and sprinted for home.  Once I got home, the starter was still working fine, and the bike was still running strong, as it had all the way home.

But... a couple of weeks ago when I took my bike out of mothballs after the winter lay-up (yeah, it wasn't very long this winter), the starter would turn the bike over for 10-15 seconds, then I'd rest it for 30 seconds or so, then it would be real sluggish about starting to turn the motor over the next time I pushed the starter button.  Is there a thermal protection circuit breaker in the starter solenoid?  Is there a long known starter solenoid issue?

Or is this an ominous sign that my starter might be going?  I do have an extra starter that came in a box of parts with the bike.  I assume it is worn out and not yet rebuilt.  If my starter is worn out, I'll be combing the archives for rebuild tips, but if anyone wants to volunteer any, please do.

Thanks in advance,
Scott

[QBS]

Can't address the flame out, but your starter may need a little love injection.  Fear not.  They are easy to work on and parts are expensive.  If you haven't installed the spring lip design oil seal, now is the time.  Next, replace the brushes.  Seal is about $3-$4 USD.  An experienced automotive alternator/generator/starter motor repair shop should be able to put new brushes in your old brush plate for approx. $20USD.  The starter V solenoid rarely, if ever fails.  I know of no thermal protection circuit built into it.  How many miles on the bike?  Do you know the history of the bike's upgrades, specifically the starter motor oil seal?

Typo Alert:  I meant to say that parts are Inexpensive.

[fret not]

Sounds more like a low battery, or possibly dodgy connections in the battery and starter circuit, or oil inside the starter motor.  Not too difficult to check out.

[Rikugun]

Yesterday on the way home from work I had the oddest flame-out while waiting at a light

Nothing surprises me about Visions anymore but I must admit to being intrigued about this - care to elaborate?

If the problem is the starter, there used to be a few rebuild tutorial articles floating around. One is in the technical section of this forum: http://ridersofvision.net/Technical/Starter/starter.html  The article focuses more on seal replacement but should help with disassembly/reassembly.

A lot is asked of the starter on a Vision. Ten to fifteen seconds of sustained cranking on any motorcycle starter is a very long time  - and an eternity on a Vision.  Thirty seconds may not be enough time to cool before the next onslaught. Does it always require this much cranking? Even after storage this seems excessive. Regular use like this may shorten it's lifespan even after a rebuild.

[QBS]

I too have had the explicable flame out more than once.  Its suddenness, unaccompanied by warning, led me to think that it was probably ignition related.  The problem is so random that trying to chase it down seemed like a hopeless task so I just live with it.  That's OK as long as ones starting and charging systems are good.  However, with a V, that may not always be the case.

[dingleberry]

I would be pulling my kill switch apart and checking  if clean and dry for a start.

[QBS]

Thank Db.  That's an excellent, not too invasive, place look at.  Can't hurt.

[skucera]

Yesterday on the way home from work I had the oddest flame-out while waiting at a light

Nothing surprises me about Visions anymore but I must admit to being intrigued about this - care to elaborate?

There's not a lot more to say.  I pulled into the left turn lane behind a line of cars, and the bike was at about 60% choke with an idle speed of 2500 RPM, which was too high.  I edged the choke to 50% and the idle went to 1800-2000 RPM.  Then I waited 30 seconds or so, and the the idle just started to plummet.  I tried opening the throttle to keep the bike from sputtering out, but it sputtered out.

I pressed the starter, but it didn't do anything except dim the oil light slightly.  I shifted up to neutral, tried the starter again, and nothing except slightly dimmer lights.  I checked my Run switch, and it was in Run, not Stop.  That's when I glanced over my shoulder to make sure both lanes of traffic were clear, then duck waddled over to a driveway and up onto the sidewalk.  You've heard the rest.

So, if there's no thermal cut-out on the starter solenoid, then I should focus on the battery and the starter.

That earlier thing was just starting up after winter mothballing.  In hindsight I should have turned the petcock to the "Charge" position to refill the float-bowl, but I forgot and cranked the starter for 15-30 seconds a couple of times before the bike started.  Normally the bike cranks for only 1-2 seconds before it starts.

Thanks for the pointers.  I'll look up the oil seal, and look into getting new brushes.

Scott

[QBS]

Not be nit picky, but there is no "charge" petcock position.  Did you mean "PRI"?  Also, how many miles on the bike?  Do you know the starter motors' update history?  This information can help better diagnose your situation.

[fret not]

I usually check the easy and most obvious things first, just my lazy nature.  Also keep in mind there are multiple other possibilities, as the bike is some 30 years old and been exposed to an unknown number of incidents and the elements.  Meaning: it could be anything.

fuel system
ignition system
voodoo curse

[Rikugun]

Scott, thanks for the clarification. That is troubling behavior surrounding the stalling. Had you just started the commute on a cold engine? Has it done that before? and now, on to the starter....

Trying to diagnose an intermittent problem can be difficult. Some tests are best done when it's in a failed state - the trick is not knowing when and where that will be. Obviously begin with a good condition and fully charged battery. Maybe try eliminating the various relays, wiring, switches, etc. with jumper cables directly from the battery to the starter motor. If you can get it started, try this test when the engine and starter motor are heat soaked as well. If the starter motor spins the engine over properly, you've possibly eliminated it and can focus on other things.

I say "possibly" because it still may be the starter in the beginning stages of complete failure. Some of the symptoms you describe fit. I've had this happen and thought it was the starter button because fussing with it once seemed to work. When that "fix" stopped working I swapped a spare solenoid but it did not consistently resolve the issue. I knew the battery and cables were serviceable and finally removed the starter to find it a mess inside. I was shocked it continued to work as long as it did.

This doesn't mean yours is in need of an overhaul, but if you haven't yet, it could be the issue.

[skucera]

Not be nit picky, but there is no "charge" petcock position.  Did you mean "PRI"?  Also, how many miles on the bike?  Do you know the starter motors' update history?  This information can help better diagnose your situation.

Charge... Prime... yeah, I didn't look at the peacock first before posting.  The effect is the same.

As for the number of miles, that can never be known.  My '82 has an '83 speedo in it, and the original 85 MPH speedo didn't come with the bike when I bought it.  The '83 speedo shows 12,600 miles, but who knows.?..

Scott

[skucera]

Scott, thanks for the clarification. That is troubling behavior surrounding the stalling. Had you just started the commute on a cold engine? Has it done that before? and now, on to the starter....

Yes, I'd just started out from work, and this was the second traffic signal I had stopped at since leaving the parking lot, about 3/4 mile from work.  I've had a couple of flame-outs at idle when I released the choke too soon while the engine is too cold to support it.  (I think I've mentioned I can be a little impatient.)  But in those previous flame-outs the starter always worked to instantly restart the motor.

What was new this time was the manner of the way the idle speed suddenly spun down after idling for 30 seconds or so at 1800 RPM, and the total lack of starter function.  It seems electrical in nature, but all the treads mentioning the oil seal, and the advice in this thread backing that up, have me curious about that too.

Scott

[Re-Vision]

Believe I would double check vacuum lines and re-synch carbs. Likely that starter has its on problem.      BDC

[Rikugun]

The two problems may be related but I tend to think they are separate issues. I'd deal with the starter first. Since it later started and ran after the event, I guess the charging system is working and the battery is good. How old is the battery and have you checked voltage when running above idle speed for 14+ VDC? If the charging system is working but the battery is older I'd suggest investing in a small motorcycle battery hydrometer or taking it to an auto parts store to be load tested. A good static voltage test can be inconclusive.

Regarding the starter, yes the nose seal can be an issue but the brushes get a workout too and often just wear out. The commutator may need to be cleaned up true and segment undercut re-established. There are VOM tests to verify good windings as well.

You should eliminate the basics first by checking resistance of the starter switch, checking voltage at the relay etc. Have you tried shorting the poles of the starter relay with a junk screwdriver when the starter acts up to eliminate the various switches, clutch safety, etc?

[skucera]

My battery tested out just fine on my battery load tester.  It's probably overkill for a little motorcycle battery, since it throws a 100 amp load on it for 10 seconds.  The battery was new probably days before I bought the bike from Al last July.  He mentioned he wasn't happy with the old battery, so it was nice of him.  It had a full charge too, so it recharged on my 18 mile ride home just fine.

The terminals were only lightly corroded.  I cleaned them up and sprayed them with silicone spray to seal out moisture and air.  I put it back together and it started right up.  I shut it off, and restarted again, and there was still a slight lag between pushing the Starter button and having the engine turn over on that second attempt.  I'm thinking that I'll have to look at the starter next.

That's a good idea about checking the vacuum hoses to the automatic petcock.  I've also smelled raw gas every now and then, so I'm wondering if maybe that petcock needs a rebuild.  I've seen rebuild kits on eBay... anyone know if they're OK?  I've never had a vacuum activated petcock on any other motorcycle, and I'm getting to like the convenience of it.

Thanks again for the helpful advice and hand holding. :)

Scott

[skucera]

As conflicted as I am about bringing a thread back from the grave, this same exact mysterious flameout at a traffic light with an inoperative starter yesterday on my ride home.  It started after sitting for a minute or so, but this is odd.  As some of you have followed on my other "Friggin' flywheel" thread, in the year and more since I started this thread I did these repairs:

New battery
Rebuilt starter motor
New starter clutch
Figured out why my rebuilt starter was spinning backwards, and fixed it
New battery
New starter solenoid
Fixed a broken wire from the Run/Stop switch to the first connector

Since the starter doesn't work during this time, I'm suspicious of the two relays next to the battery, the side stand relay and the starter cut-off relay.  Both looked just fine form the outside, but one or the other of them may be failing as it gets warm.  Is there a source for new versions of these relays?

Thanks,
Scott

[fret not]

Scott, your "safety" switch on the side stand might be failing.  It is easy to take it out of the circuit but you need to put a 'jumper' where it plugs into the harness.