Another non starter!

[simcha]

Trying to start my bike after years of non running. I bought the bike in bits and I have never heard it running. Over the months I have carefully cleaned, re painted and generally rebuilt everything thing I can whilst drawing on my experience with the Xzeds I have. The bike is complete it just will not start! Not the usual pops and back firing, nothing not a sound. Checked fuel is getting through, it is. carbs were fully stripped and cleaned in an ultrasonic bath, new jets gaskets and all. Fuel is spraying out of the copper pipes when the throttle is twisted. I have sprayed neat fuel down the carbs too, still not a pop. Next to the ignition. New battery leads from Tiger and HT and plugs caps too. New plugs. New fully charged battery. I would say if anything that the spark is weak. It is blue but it is certainly not a fat spark. Tested the coils, pickups and a known good CDi unit and all OK. any other ideas? How "big" a spark do I need? Any other places to check? Tried other coils too all to no effect. Checked earth to engine and frame and back to battery all have minimal resistance readings.
Beginning to think that it something terminal with the engine. Its never been apart and appears to have reasonable compression. Valve clearances were OK, maybe a touch on the wide side, but not much odd thou or so. It had been standing for years in damp conditions so I ran oil into the cylinders when I first got the bike and turned the engine over by hand with a socket wrench.
A few days working round and round and not a pop to be heard. Anybody any ideas where to look/change/adjust etc next??

[Lucky]

if it were me, i'd start by capping off the YICS ports on the head, if you have one, don't even bother connecting them together, just cap 'em & eliminate them from the curcit.

next jump the bike off a NON RUNNING car.  a little battery boost can make a huge difference. get her spining quick & that's half the battle. a faster spinning crankshaft ignites easier

an inline spark tester is well worth the investment.  plugs can fire well outside the cylinder but under cylinder pressure they can fail.

use smal shots of carb cleaner directly in the carb throats as you try to crank her.

see my previous post too.

Good luck, keep us posted.
--Lucky

[simcha]

Thanks Lucky will try that. Having slept on it I am going to check and recheck all the electrical plugs and make sure they are really clean. Get this snagging feeling that the spark is not all that it should.
Does anybody having any thoughts on low compression? With it been standing all this time could the rings or valves be rusted causing some leakage? Does have compression though. What should it be when cold? Maybe I could check.
Just to put my mind at rest, is it possible to have the wrong coil on the wrong cylinder? Sitting on the bike the right hand coil goes to the rear cylinder?? Do not think you could wire it up wrong as the loom sort of runs to that side. Anybody confirm this?

[Tiger]

 :) As you sit on your Vision, the right side coil feeds the rear cylinder spark plug......Hmmmmm, pull the left side coil and clean the ground/earth wire ring terminal and the frame with some emery cloth/sand paper and reattach using the coil rear stud. This ground wire needs to be good and can get overlooked very easily...

               8).......TIGER........ 8)

[simcha]

Tiger, I have run a separate earth from the battery up to the coil stud to make sure all was well at this point. I think this is the only earth point into the wiring loom? Anymore ideas from your experience with the other 16 Visions! Still worried about the compression too, what do you think?

[Tiger]

 :) The ground/earth wire that comes out of the wiring loom at the left side coil, goes back to the T.C.I. plug connector...your Vision NEEDS THIS ground/earth wire my friend.

I have had one Vision, (that arrived here as a nonstarter), where this wire was broken off and missing...this necessitated peeling back the loom outer cover to locate the wire (Black) and graft in a new piece with a new ring connection. On completion she started right up... 8)

                      8).......TIGER....... 8)

[simcha]

Tiger the wire is there! I had the frame shot blasted and painted before the rebuild and made sure that the paint was ground off before I fitted the lug behind the coil. Seems a bit weak to have only this point to take the earth into the loom. Why did they not take it back to the battery? The big earth lead onto the engine surely gives good enough ground for the starter etc. Maybe I have got it wrong and its the normal way its done?
Tonight I have stripped off and blanked off the YICS, cleaned all the electrical connections to the coils CDi etc, rechecked the plugs, coils and leads and then just stared at the F***ing thing! ??? Still no life, just one small phutt....How can something I have spent so much cash, time and love do this to me.....Something somewhere is wrong, very wrong....going to have a couple of beers and think about the ad I am going to place on EBay...   XZ550 for sale non runner............. ;)

[Tiger]

 :) If you have another TCI unit, swap them over and try again...... :-\ A boost from a car battery (even if yours is good) will help...but prime her for a couple of minutes first before you try starting her.

Bugger, don't tell me I'm going to have to go back to England after 15 years to get her started for ya buddy!!! I don't think they would appreciate a "Geordie Mackem" in Leeds!!!  :o ;D :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:... ;)

                         8).......TIGER....... 8)

[simcha]

Hey Tiger, your welcome anytime and if you can get it going I will even buy the beer!
Just had another couple of hours tonight with a booster pack connected. Starter turns over quickly and I would say it has a spark that should create something if only a pop and bang. I have removed and blanked the YICS too. Still nothing. I am beginning to think it may not be ignition related now as I feel something should happen with the spark it has now. So its either carbs which I rebuilt so don't think anything really wrong there or mechanical. I have never seen it running so maybe its something there? Do have compression but I do seem to get fuel vapour blowing back through the carbs which maybe indicates something amiss here? Getting to the point of "popping" in a spare engine I have. Sure that will be 2 minute job.......

[Lucky]

try spraying carb cleaner right into the Yics ports (& cap them back up)

[simcha]

HI Lucky,
Do you mean carb cleaner or the "easy start" type of stuff? What is the purpose of spraying the stuff straight in there? Sure you must have a good reason just trying to understand whats going on in there! Do you have any thoughts on the possible low compression? I read somewhere that a minimum of 40psi is required for combustion?

[Lucky]

yeah 40 psi won't do it.. is that a true figure, or are you guessing?  a proper compression test is with the throttle wide open & the engine cranking over quickly a few times (5-8 revolutions should do it)

use carb cleaner not either (starting fluid) because the carb cleaner has oils the either doesn't & will wipe the oils from your rings. 

i say use the YICS ports because they sit on top of the intake valves & you can bypass the carbs completely.  if it starts & runs for a second, it's a fuel delivery problem.

also if your compression is real low you may only need a valve adjustment..  or not...

[simcha]

Did a compression test last night with an old tester I found. Not a good accurate measurement because the tester was a push fit onto the spark plug hole but I did manage to get some readings. Cranking the engine over with reasonable charge in the battery I got 90-95 psi rear and about 65 psi front. Difficult to get a good reading on the front as access was tight. Both readings cold without the throttle open. ( Did the tests before reading your reply). The valve clearances were OK when I checked before installing the engine, maybe a little wide but only a thou or two. The engine has been standing a while but looked externally in good condition with new signs of abuse. I checked the valves and did the starter clutch mod before fitting the engine. Mileage is about 20,000. I hope if I can get it running that the compression will return as things settle down but maybe that a hope to far!