:) I did some 'horse trading' with Fret nut a few weeks ago (thanks buddy) and acquired one of his MOSFET R/R's, which arrived yesterday...(now the mail strike is over!!)
Last night I removed the oem R/R from 'The Mistress' and installed the MOSFET unit that originally came off of a CBR600.
I'm pleased to report that after the install, all appears to be working well...14.1v showing on the digital volt meter that I have mounted on my 'V'.
This unit has five wires...3 x Yellow (Honda) stator wires, 1 x Red (positive) and 1 x Green (ground/earth). I wired her up, bypassing the 'V' wire harness connections (over by the TCI unit) as per this link... http://eviltwinsbk.com/forumz/index.php?topic=276.0
8) ....... TIGER ....... 8)
Nice, I'm looking forward to doing this upgrade once I get back on the road.
Way to go Tiger, I'd like to do the same upgrade, but need to find the proper time and funds. I'd be hoping for a cooler running side case.
So now you have a Yamahonda! ;D You beat me to it...of course! While I like the Mosfet technology (very efficient) I don't hold out much hope for it helping extend the stator life. I have installed on on my Venture and it does a much better job of getting more output at the lower rpms which will help keep the Vision battery in better shape for those that travel short jaunts and/or traffic. If I did not plug my Vision in to the battery tender every night, the battery would not likely ever have a full charge with my type of riding. The mosfet is a better unit from this perspective.
When I get the time (and money) I am looking at the Series type RR which does actually reduce stator internal heat (as is being experienced by a few other stator-eating bikes). They cost $200.00 which is a good deal if it saves the stator, and I am thinking that it's "wing-nuts" on the stator cover or a series RR for me in the very near future ;D.
Good job Tiger....you're the man! 8)
Cecil, I hope you're wrong about the stator life but only time will tell! ;) I too installed a MOSFET unit on my V this spring along with a new stator. The R/R mounts in the original position and runs considerably cooler than the old one. I ran the + and - directly to the battery with a 30 amp fuse on the plus side.
I'm getting a very steady 14.3 at the battery and not much less at idle. I also did the blade style fuse conversion and made up a set of starter/battery cables. I'm feeling pretty good about the V's electrical system this season and hopefully won't have any problems for a long time. :)
Gary...sounds like you've got it happening with that V of yours! I hope I'm wrong too on the mosfet extending stator life, I've got one that is going on this summer, but I don't have great expectations for it. I do like the strong charging behaviour of the mosfet and that is actually beneficial. Yea 14.3 seems to be what it does right off idle which is terrific for keeping the old lead plates healthy. Starter cables are a great help too as the voltage drop over the old ones is tragic, it's a wonder any "V's " start!
Have a fun summer!
hmmmm, maybe some cooling fins on the alternator cover would help....????
I think Tiger an I a psychically linked. I did the Mosfet change over around July 4th. Had it sittting in a box for years now. So I put it in. And after "ohming" things out in the harness. There was ZERO resistance in the harness from the + and - at the battery to locations to where I hard wired the OEM R/R years ago. But I do have extra grounds in the harness too. So, I connected to the original locations. Mine runs 14.1 V at idle jumps to 14.25 when revved above 3100rpm . Yes , if you put the brakes on at idle OR have the fan running it will drop...but at worst, only to 13.8v and depending on how good your battery is. The stator can only have so much available...you know. If both fan and brakes are on...you will eventually drop to 13v or less. But that is not often unless you are on a hill stuck in traffic. I have a special bracket by the rear tire where my original was mounted. FYI, My rear tire runs warmer than the MOSFET R/R. Also the closer to 14v you run, the less you have issues of the battery acid being "boiled out". This unit is used on MANY new Yamahas. ..R1, Vmax, Road Star...to name a few.Eastern Beaver electrical sells conncters etc. to allow OEM mounting to be weather tight. And you do not need the brown wire. This unit is smart enough not to need it. ;D And lastly it's a more efficient unit...capable of passing more AMPS to your battery. And Amps are what keeps the battery charged. Not entirely the volts...
I added a "mosfet" R&R from a ZX10 as well this winter and so far it works great. Five wires - 3 stator, 1 to battery positive and 1 to batter negative. Getting 14.4 at idle and I can tell my battery is always fully charged. I am still a little confused at what terminology people are using to discribe the R&Rs - "mosfet" and "series" . The "mosfet" is a type of transistor and the circuit is what counts, I'm thinking what people are calling "Mosfet" is also a circuit that will duty cycle the charging and keep the stator cooler (rather then 100% duty cycle and dump the excess to ground). Power supply designers know these circuits inside and out and should chime in here to straighten things out.
MOSFET, Stands for metal oxide semiconductor field effect transistor. They are much more efficient at passing curent and generate a great deal less heat doing the same job.
Thanks motoracer...that's what I meant by it's "ability to pass more AMPS" to the charging system. Much more efficient.
motoracer, is that the reason your stator case is cool, or do you have one of these?
Supervision, Yes I have a MOSFET regulator, it's from a Kawasaki, don't remember the model. I installed it with a new Yamaha stator, it's been some years ago, many miles and no troubles. I replaced the spade connectors with some Bosch connectors that were made for 12ga wire, and made shure all the grounds were clean and tight.
I took my OE regulator to a local bone yard and looked around untill I found one with the same mounting holes as I wanted to put the RR back where it was. I noted the part number went to a Kawasaki dealer and bought a new one.
One thing I did for alittle extra cooling was cut a piece of 1/8" aluminum sheet 3X4", put that under the regulator, then a couple of flat washers between the plate and the battery box for just alittle more air flow. Does it work? I hav'nt had any more charging issues.
We know Kawi does not make them. In fact one or 2 manufacturers make 90% of the electrics for JAP bikes. Mine is the common FH012AA. Same mounting holes as the original. I can say that with the OEM R/R the left case(stator) would always heat up faster than the right. I have not used my heat temp gun to check casing temps. But that's a good idea. I will check it in the future.
So, maybe the answer to the burning question is to run an OEM stator (hoping to insure getting the highest quality available) with a MOSFET R/R, high quality connector, and solid grounding.
:) The MOSFET that I installed is the same bolt pattern as the OEM unit that I took off...which is mounted on a bracket that is fastened to a screw on the lower part of the inner fender just up from the left aluminum footpeg plate. This has always been a better place for air flow than the original spot behind the battery box!!!
I run with a Ricks rebuilt stator that I installed a few years/miles back and a weather pack triple connector for the three white wires. I also have the heavier duty ground and positive wires, (that I custom make/sell). All the ground connections are clean, tight and have an all weather protection coating on them. The battery is a year or so old and is kept on a float charger when not out on the road. 'The Mistress' has no known electrical issues that I know of... ;)
The MOSFET unit runs
WAAAAAAAAAY cooler than the oem one... and I mean
WAY cooler!!!...and puts out a steady 14.1 / 14.2 volts. I have just been out for a couple of hours with temps around 30c (approx' 90f) and when I got back home you can grab hold of the MOSFET without burning your skin off :o ;) I have to say that I highly recommend these units as a great upgrade to our oem ones... 8)
8) ....... TIGER ....... 8)
Tiger is right on, the MOSFET regulator will get warm but not so hot you can't touch it like the OE regulator. The Kawasaki just happend to be the first M/C I found with an exposed regulator. I don't recall the maker.
The regulator on my Ducati looks excatly the same, mabe the same maker??
my spelling may be off...manufaturerShindigen
That's real close.. http://www.shindengen.co.jp/top_e/index.html (http://www.shindengen.co.jp/top_e/index.html)
BTW, is this seller (jasonmotoelectrix) you?
http://compare.ebay.com/like/360358573656?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y (http://compare.ebay.com/like/360358573656?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y)
If I go to the motorcycle bone yard, how can I tell which ones are Mosfet? Can you just pick any one that has a suitable bolt pattern? Connectors would have to be changed anyway
Shindengen MOSFET R/R model numbers start with FH. The silcon controlled rectifiers start with SH.
For the Shindengen, the FH codes are mosfet. The FH0012AA is I believe the one to go for - standard equipment on the Honda CB1000RR, Yamaha R1 and a few others
QuoteFor the Shindengen, the FH codes are mosfet
there must be an echo in here... :D :D
Mine is from a > '07 CBR600RR (FH008?) and has pig tails on it that I soldered my own plugs on. The 012 variants and some others require a plug to fit an integral socket. You'd need to cut the plug end from the Honda's wiring harness or go to a site like this that sells the proper plug and terminal ends:
http://www.easternbeaver.com/Main/Elec__Products/Connectors/R_R_Connectors/r_r_connectors.html (http://www.easternbeaver.com/Main/Elec__Products/Connectors/R_R_Connectors/r_r_connectors.html)
According to the site the newer 1000RR uses a 014 and they do not have that plug/terminal kit available as of yet.
Quote from: Rikugun on July 24, 2011, 11:04:47 AM
That's real close.. http://www.shindengen.co.jp/top_e/index.html (http://www.shindengen.co.jp/top_e/index.html)
BTW, is this seller (jasonmotoelectrix) you?
http://compare.ebay.com/like/360358573656?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y (http://compare.ebay.com/like/360358573656?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y)
NO...not me...
Hey guys, I'm replacing my fried R/R with a MOSFET, and excuse my ignorance, but I have NO clue where to start... I'm electrically ignorant... can I just pull any old regulator off any bike? do I have to have a certain type? where can I get one? ??? thanks guys!
(p.s. I have read this whole thread, and searched, but I'm just REALLY not good with electronics ::) )
From the looks of it, this might be what you're looking for if you can solder the connectors together yourself. Radio Shack will have the wire you need. Appears to be the same 5-wire connection that Tiger talked about at the beginning of the post.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/YAMAHA-SHINDENGEN-FH012AA-REGULATOR-W-CONNECTORS-?cmd=ViewItem&hash=item588d8645ad&item=380331509165&pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr#ht_863wt_1110
There's also this one which should be the same one Tiger used.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONDA-CBR600RR-CBR-600RR-VOLTAGE-REGULATOR-RECTIFIER-2003-2006-03-06-FH008BA-?cmd=ViewItem&hash=item3f0eabd495&item=270829081749&pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr#ht_690wt_1110
The CBR 600 is the easiet to install (very close to original size). You don't have to go looking for connectors. Since there are four wires (on most of them but not all, two positive and negative) coming from the RR I ran two to my regular wiring harness connectors and the other two directly to my battery. I figure my bases are covered with that configuration.
Observations from install: Better battery charging, higher output for low rpms, better output for accessories such as heated jacket/gloves of which I use both. Combined with a battery tender you have a very effective charging system for short rides (20-30 minutes) or long hauls.
Since the Mosfets regulate heat so well they can be installed in the original location (or in your pocket for that matter ::)) behind battery box which I have since returned my R/R after about 10 years of rear footpeg location. I went through 2 original RR's over 55000 km and I was becoming a bit suspicious of some frame vibration issues contributing to their demise during that time (just can't confirm it). The voltage regulator went in the first one, and a diode burned out in the second lowering output and behaving exactly like a stator burned out on one of the three windings. You can never be sure until you do a diode check in the RR to confirm or a grounding test for the stator (I am on stator no. 4 at the moment). In retrospect I like the original location and the Mosfet makes the heat issue a non-issue.
By next season I will know if the Mosfet is doing a better job with my stator as I should be due for no. 5 by then (15000km per stator, like clockwork). It will be interesting to see if there is any positive effect in this area :-\.
Awesome! thanks guys! I'll see if I can't find a CBR mosfet. so, it's pretty much plug (or solder ;)) and play, right? I'll have to find the location of that pull-a-part here in TN... good luck with your stator CL :)
ok, I have a very good question:
How do you test a Mofset R/R? what is the procedure? I don't think it would be the same for a standard R/R...
Anyone? Buler? Buler?
The procedure is apparently different as fret nut found out.
http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=12661.0 (http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=12661.0)
I don't know that anyone has posted a procedure for the MOSFETs yet. Looks like you'll have to use the process of elimination for now. :)
Cdnlouie - 4 wires? Mine has 5 total -3 stator input, one 12v output, and 1 ground. Was yours from a 2008 or newer Cbr600?
Good question on the testing procedure Lucky. It was always nice to find out for certain that something was bad in the RR before tossing it. Until someone reveals that mystery we will have to rely upon checking the stator and if it's good (no grounding), then replace the RR. If necessary, swap it out with a buddy to make sure it's bad or good. That's pretty much the procedure for now. It kind of sounds like a modern technique, plug it in and if it works great; if not, plug another one in.
I used Tiger's automotive connector for my stator wires which was a very nice addition to system. One red and green standard connector to the regular wiring harness and then the two addtional red & green directly to the battery. Once it is wired up this way it is easy to check stator for grounding by a nice clean connector.
The wires on my unit (CBR600 2005-6) are actually seven in total 3 yellow stator wires, 2 red positive and 2 green negative. Sometimes the positive and negative wires are two or four wires. There is no difference, it just seems like they wanted to increase the capacity of the output wires by doubling up on them; rather than one larger wire. It is easier working with two smaller wires. This has been done on other models for some time. My Venture Royale did this in 1985 on its RR output to lessen connector failure by moving the current through two connectors rather than one.
Lucky, when I contacted the fellow that wrote the MOSFET conversion thread on the www.eviltwinsbk.com he didn't know of a test that could be done on a MOSFET unit other than plugging it in and reading the meter. He did say he had never seen a failed one, so hopefully that bodes well for those of us that have installed them on our bikes.
Found a good blog with an explanation of how they work. It's (mostly) over my head unless i study it & learn the components.
he might be the one to ask to design a flow chart for diagnostics...
A URL might help huh? lol
http://mastercircuits.blogspot.com/2011/08/fet-type-motorcycle-voltage-regulator.html (http://mastercircuits.blogspot.com/2011/08/fet-type-motorcycle-voltage-regulator.html)
That's a very cool blog 8) , lots of nice goodies to browse there. Throw it out to him and see if he is intrigued by the idea, it sounds up his alley He may know how to do it or know who has done it already. Good sourcing! I would love to read a bit more detailed explanation as he just begins to touch on the process. I am interested in how it works in conjunction with the stator as he just touches on that idea. To see if we have an RR that could actually extend stator life.
Boy, MOSFET is sounding more and more like a fix for our stator issues. I loved the part where he says that shunt type regulators run hot and really don't do well in hot environments. Would that include the little muffler heated hot box that is the stock location for V r/rs'? Maybe.
His comment about having a load on the shunt type r/r to make its' job easier is pertinent to me. I've been running a 100/130 watt headlight bulb on my stock wiring and oem 10A fuse for many years. Fuses don't blow and the wiring shows no distress. Can't say for absolute certainty, but can't remember replacing a stator since then. Highly recommend this mod. Can't have too much light on my m/c and if it makes stators live longer, all the better. Cheap, easy, plug and play, for off road use only, of course.
Or if you are a northern boy you can just plug in your electric vest ;D.
Just remember that the Mosfet is still a shunt RR but it manages the shunting differently. While it does not shunt it to a heat sink like in the old RR's and gets very hot, it does shunt the extra voltage somewhere in the system. The interesting question is just where does it go?
I know it does a much better job of charging the battery yet without boiling it over (effective management as per the circuits in the blog diagram), this is no doubt part of where the current is going. I would guess that at lower rpms the mosfet sends everything to the battery wheras the old unit is shunting to the heat sink even at low rpm's. More current is probably being consumed in the entire electrical system, and components are being better powered for more effective operation.
Even at higher rpm the Mosfet is shunting the unneeded power somewhere in the system, but not in the old style heat sink style. Someone who understands the circuit diagram (like on the site Lucky found) would be able to explain this design much better, but I think this is the essence of it.
By the way QBS, how many miles do you have on your current stator?
The present/fourth stator was installed approx. 21 years and 50k miles ago. The first three (oem+ 2 replacements) failed within the first six years of my ownership. The 100/130 headlight bulb was installed not very long after the present stator was installed.
As an anecdotal aside, in '99 I rode the bike to California and experienced some really hot desert riding conditions. Temps were often in the 105 to 110 F range. I rode the bike as usual, often for lengthy sustained periods of 7k+ rpm. The RR was mounted in the stock location. The bike showed no charging/electrical problems. Eight years later the RR failed in the 17.5V mode. A used replacement RR, mounted on the left passenger foot peg bolt, now delivers 13.2V to 14.2V depending on engine rpm.
I'm impressed with your stator record! That qualifies as serious bragging rights. I know Jason M. has a long running stator too, but there are not many of you out there. Talk about a study in contrasts, you may have one of the best records and worst ::).
Why don't you start a thread for longest lasting stators (I don't think we've done that yet) just for fun, and let's see how many actually qualify?
Indeed, your higher wattage headlight may well have made a favorable contribution, you just never know what combination of factors brings success. It would be interesting to add any modifications/setup/driving conditions, that have been done to the bikes with the longest running stators.
We should also do a mosfet group too, so we can see if they contribute to longer stator life. I have never done more than 15,000km (9000miles) on a stator (fourth one now), so if I go over this time, I will start singing the praises of the mosfet.
The oil-cooler fellows should be showing some signs of success or not too, as these have been about the best things to do to help extend stator life.
And on the other side to QBS' tale, I have gone 48000 miles on the original stator and R/R... (stock size lights as well)
Brian
That's awesome Brian! Well that's at least three (QBS, Jason, Brian M.) now in the " :o very high mileage :o" category. It's interesting to put everyone together just to hear the story.
Are you fellows all 83's?
My bike in a 1983, I am the original owner. Well over 99% of the riding I do is commuting to work. I have taken some longer trips (Los Angeles, Oregon, Bakersfield for the CROV) but for the first 11 years I owned it I pretty much rode it to and from work (about 15 miles round-trip). It then sat for a lot of time until I started riding it again in San Francisco, and here it's 15 miles to and from work, just about every day. I did replace the stator/RR connector with a better connector around 1990 or so. I did a complete frame rebuild around 2006, but the engine was untouched, except for the carbs.
Brian
Quote from: Cdnlouie on October 20, 2011, 02:58:46 PM
The oil-cooler fellows should be showing some signs of success or not too, as these have been about the best things to do to help extend stator life.
I'm in the oil cooler club but haven't joined the long lasting stator club
I tried the electrosport - 3k mile= fail
then went through 2 Virago stators - 12k miles= less fail
now my HondoStator has gone over 10k miles= eventual fail?
NV put in the big headlight and see what happens.
just might do that... this spring she was charging hot after I woke her up from her winters nap... but then everything has been fine since then.
a brighter light sounds good to me!
I'm 8 or 9 years in on the oil cooler & still on the same stator. i'm not one for numbers, so i don't know the milage, plus the Odo got changed out for an 83 at some point...
Still running on the original stator & R/R at 103,+ kilometers.R/r in the stock location,synthetic oil in the cooker. No gremlins wanted !
Cheers Ken S. ;D
Whoa! The "elite group" continues to grow! The oil cooler club also getting a nod after 8 or 9 years because that has to be over the average life of a stator which most get around 10,000 miles or 15,000km. You are all making me jealous, just think of all the fun you have been missing with the rest of us sorry lot.
So QBS, Jason, Brian, Kenny (all 83's I think) with some of the highest miles/km on a stator (50k plus miles). I think that pretty much defines the "elites."
The "oil cooler club" gets a nod with Lucky (so high he has lost count)....
The "mosfet club" we are still waiting on...too soon to say.
Everybody else "losers" that would be me plus....a few more good men. Of course I mean that in the nicest way.
Anybody else to join the club?
Cndlouie, my bike is an '83 I purchased used in '84. Odometer showed 1300 miles. $1300 changed hands. I am the second owner. Current mileage estimated at 88k miles made up of about 40% urban and 60% rural. Early, on for about two years, it was my primary transport.
Well, I just purchased a MOSFET from Fret, so I'll keep you guys posted if I notice any improvements on anything :)
As a MOSFET club member (and card carrying non-YICS using Rebel member ;)) I fall into the too "early to tell" category with only a few thousand miles on my setup. Regarding Lucky's 8-9 years w/oil cooler I'd be impressed if there were a mileage figure along with that claim. I'm not suggesting his bike sits unused under the car port but even a realistic guesstimate would give some weight to the data point.
We may need another category for members with alternate forms of cooling. Was it "Hypermiling" darkvision that installed heat sinks on his alternator cover? What about cooling fans (Walt?) on the R/R - has that been shown to increase stator life?
All substantiable (I think that word works) claims proudly accepted. I will say that there is an interesting correlation with the elite group that all have 83's. What's the deal here? Did Yamaha change something? It seems that OEM stators on the 83's are making us proud.
I have not heard of any long running stators on 82's, at least not yet. One day I hope to be one, but for the moment remain hopeless. Let's find out who is running a Mosfet so far and start tracking mileage on that group.
Cdnlouie - Mosfet (2011 @ 55,000km) installed a Suzuki OEM with approx. 5000km previous to mosfet install (not sure how much was on it originally, but windings were new looking) 56300km showing this fall (1300km on mosfet so far). Just inspected stator after 4000km usage (before Mosfet) and windings were browning up at this point with a lovely golden colour.
We still need to hear from Tiger (Mosfet 2011) and no doubt a few more...
That's a good idea to track the MOSFET data maybe a dedicated thread or sticky?
Regarding the long lived '83 stators.... I got the impression when I first joined that the '83 stators did last longer and surmised that Yamaha had corrected the problem by using better quality components? I'm sure there are exceptions but am I incorrect in this assessment?
I am not sure what "correcting the problem" might have entailed, if that is the case. I don't know if anyone has bought an actual OEM stator to find out, but in all the aftermarket stators there is no improvement, nor in using other manufacturers OEM (with same much newer G7 (?) stator) does there seem to be an improvement.
Unless, they changed the flywheels, and there is something inherent in those (degree of magnetism ???), I can't imagine what it would be. However, QBS saw an improvement after 3 stators so that might imply a stator upgrade. No conclusive correlation is really possible and we have been doing this for almost 30 years. And less we forget there are many other bikes that suffer from the same malady so we are in good company.
It's been so long ago that I can't remember for sure if my present stator is oem or not. I do know that I hadn't heard of any aftermarket stators until long after the install, so it might be.
When I got my '83 it had under 13k on it and the stator and r/r were both bad. No way of knowing if it was original, but the stator mounting screws were really hard to loosen.
The crispy looking used stator I put in is still going strong after 4K+ but I think this winter I'm going to go ahead and put the Tim Parrot stator in pre-emptively
My stator has looked like a charcoal brickett since 15k, when I 1st took the cover off for the shift seal. It's now closing on 40k. A wise man once said...looks aren't important if she lets you play any way you want. My bike let's me play... and the stator no matter how ugly , still works.
Pullshocks, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, BTDT. Check present voltage. If it's within specs., leave it alone and install a voltmeter instead. Then, run the stator until the voltmeter says it's time to change it out. If present output is marginal, change it now.
QBS thanks for the advice. . I never expected to last this long, and I am really curious how long it will last. Also, I have a lot of other projects to work on. I have a volt meter installed, and output is strong as ever. I understand that if it goes during a local ride I can pull the headlight bulb and probably get home.
But if I do another trip this summer, it would be peace of mind to have the fresh stator in there. I know it is possible to do a roadside R&R but don't want to inconvenience my riding partners, most of whom are on late model machines.
If ever nessessary, remove every light fuse you can to get max miles out of the battery. Much easier than removimg the bulbs. For extra points, whenever possible, park the bike in a way that will allow it to roll down hill so you can bump start it while seated. Every little amp counts.
I put a KZ900 RR on in 2002 and it was still working when I stopped riding the bike.
Quote from: QBS on December 08, 2011, 08:51:54 PM
Pullshocks, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, BTDT. Check present voltage. If it's within specs., leave it alone and install a voltmeter instead. Then, run the stator until the voltmeter says it's time to change it out. If present output is marginal, change it now.
BEING an electronics technician. I have had a home made voltage indicator since "day one'. It glows green ONLY above 13.5V. So when moving or above 2000rpm it should always glow. I have checked the volt with meter many times. Always been good. The MOSFET is just a more modern and better unit than the old diode type R/R. As the Mosfet is a true 14.3v 99% of the time. So the battery is not overcharged. Where the old type could run up to 14.7. The old R/R system works better with an
Extra ground as many have found. I honestly am not totally sure if the stator is truly running cooler...
I too have run some sort of voltage indicator since 1999. First it was an analog voltmeter, then a digital volt meter with a thermostat and clock function, from Radio shack. that packed up in 2006 and I installed one I purchased on eBay (forget the brand) $35.00, Its still on the bike . My VX800 has a 6 diode automotive tester , from Auto zone , $6.95. Its hard wired in . The three diodes on the right monitor the battery and the three on the left monitor the charge rate. Don't leave home with out it. They have saved my bacon 4 times.
Quote from: Tiger on July 07, 2011, 07:31:56 AM
This unit has five wires...3 x Yellow (Honda) stator wires, 1 x Red (positive) and 1 x Green (ground/earth). I wired her up, bypassing the 'V' wire harness connections (over by the TCI unit) as per this link... http://eviltwinsbk.com/forumz/index.php?topic=276.0
8) ....... TIGER ....... 8)
ok, I asked cndlou this but maybe now, I know the answer.... hook up the three stator wires and then run the red / green from the Mosfet to the battery and not back into the V's wiring harness near the CDI... correct?
Yes, in addition some use an inline fuse on the red wire to battery positive.
Quote from: Night Vision on March 31, 2012, 03:27:16 PM
Quote from: Tiger on July 07, 2011, 07:31:56 AM
This unit has five wires...3 x Yellow (Honda) stator wires, 1 x Red (positive) and 1 x Green (ground/earth). I wired her up, bypassing the 'V' wire harness connections (over by the TCI unit) as per this link... http://eviltwinsbk.com/forumz/index.php?topic=276.0
8) ....... TIGER ....... 8)
ok, I asked cndlou this but maybe now, I know the answer.... hook up the three stator wires and then run the red / green from the Mosfet to the battery and not back into the V's wiring harness near the CDI... correct?
I have tried both styles of connections on both my Venture and Vision. On the Vision, I presently have connected my + and neg. to the same spots in the harness the original R/R connected. When measured voltage at the battery with connections at the harness- The difference in charge voltage vs.connecting to the battery,is less than .2 volts . The difference is the slight resistance in the harness. ANd if you look at a bike that came with a Mosfet..it's connected to the harness , not direct to the battery. Bottom line , when to the harness, the mosfet is reading the harness voltage and adjusting. In fact my lights are actually brighter(slightly) when MOSFET wired to the harness. ALSO, NO output fuse is needed on the Mosfet. Reason people suggest connecting to the battery directly(+/-)...that's what you are keeping charged. And many do not trust their harnesses to be good. Dead batteries are bad. :laugh:
I just found out that the mosfet is not as good as the compufire, for keeping you stator cool.
Quote from: jasonm. on April 19, 2012, 09:44:35 AM
Quote from: Night Vision on March 31, 2012, 03:27:16 PM
Quote from: Tiger on July 07, 2011, 07:31:56 AM
This unit has five wires...3 x Yellow (Honda) stator wires, 1 x Red (positive) and 1 x Green (ground/earth). I wired her up, bypassing the 'V' wire harness connections (over by the TCI unit) as per this link... http://eviltwinsbk.com/forumz/index.php?topic=276.0
8) ....... TIGER ....... 8)
ok, I asked cndlou this but maybe now, I know the answer.... hook up the three stator wires and then run the red / green from the Mosfet to the battery and not back into the V's wiring harness near the CDI... correct?
I have tried both styles of connections on both my Venture and Vision. On the Vision, I presently have connected my + and neg. to the same spots in the harness the original R/R connected. When measured voltage at the battery with connections at the harness- The difference in charge voltage vs.connecting to the battery,is less than .2 volts . The difference is the slight resistance in the harness. ANd if you look at a bike that came with a Mosfet..it's connected to the harness , not direct to the battery. Bottom line , when to the harness, the mosfet is reading the harness voltage and adjusting. In fact my lights are actually brighter(slightly) when MOSFET wired to the harness. ALSO, NO output fuse is needed on the Mosfet. Reason people suggest connecting to the battery directly(+/-)...that's what you are keeping charged. And many do not trust their harnesses to be good. Dead batteries are bad. :laugh:
I found I had to wire back into the harness also.. I had just two wires going to the battery and I was back to inconsistent charging... I wired the other two back into the wiring harness and with the four wires hooked up, it's been good so far.
Anybody realize that the mosfet is still a SHUNT, the Compufire is not??
Supervision, pray tell, what is a "Compufire"?
I found this:
http://www.compufire.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6&Itemid=16
From there web site:
About Voltage Regulators
Q: What is the difference between Series Voltage regulator and O.E. style shunt?
A: When there is no demand on the battery the voltage is shunted directly to the ground on the O.E. style. In the Series style the voltage regulator turns the charging system off. Therefore there is no magnetic field between the stator and rotor reducing engine load and heat build up.
(Sounds pretty good.)
Curious, I don't see mention of rectifier. Are they just calling the normal two in one R/R under just the one name of regulator or do they "harley's" use a separate rectifier down stream to convert ac to dc. It's a good looking apple, just wondering if it is apples to apples in the R and R usual set up.
QBS, I remember reading about them when they fist invented their R/R. They cater to Harley's mainly, though if you search, many people are using them with good results. They have figured a way of regulating the A/C current, which means no shunt to ground. VFR guys, Triumph guys, Aprillia. I just ran across it yesterday. They cost close to $200, but if it as smart as they say, it would be worth it.
Yes Supervision, we had the discussion on RR types some time ago (2010 probably). Yes the Mosfet is a shunt and the Compufire is a series regulating RR which does offer some clear benefits over the shunt. No one has spent the bucks yet to try it so the jury is still out here. I am interested in the Compufire, but I am testing the Mosfet currently and currently in no rush to spend $200 plus shipping.
Be the first to give it a whirl!
Wonder how one turns "off" a stator?
They use the term "alternator" a lot. This would imply that the output is DC since both auto and bike require DC voltage. However, this voltage starts out as AC before it is rectified into DC. Therefore, a rectifier is required. Nevertheless, no mention is made of a rectifier, only a "regulator". Given these parameters, one must conclude that they have either decided to include the rectifier function in the term "regulator", or Harley's have free standing rectifiers. But then, how do the VFR, Triumph, and Aprilia guys referenced by Supervision find joy unless they are adding their own free standing rectifiers.
Yes we talkiness about Compufire in 2010, I had forgot about them, and just stumpled back onto them, when searching searching Mosfet problems, I found out many people are pleased with the campfire. They are still a r/r, just regulating before rectiifying, instead of the other way around. Also they save horsepower, and the stator winding runs cooler, under low current needs, of regular riding. Sounds good to me, and the cost is worth it, IMO.
Cheaper here from roadstercycle
http://roadstercycle.com/Roadstercycle%20New%20Series%20Regulators.htm (http://roadstercycle.com/Roadstercycle%20New%20Series%20Regulators.htm)
QuoteWonder how one turns "off" a stator?
One way is to intermittently ground one or more of the stator legs to reduce/control AC output.
QuoteThey use the term "alternator" a lot. This would imply that the output is DC
Alternators make AC, generators DC. Most modern automotive alternators are internally regulated/rectified such that DC output can charge the battery. Motorcycle alternators generally have a separate, remotely mounted R/R to convert the AC to DC for charging purposes.
google this: vfr honda campfire series r/r installation: read the threads, pages have wiring diagrams of shunt vrs series
Quote from: Cdnlouie on April 21, 2012, 01:37:44 PM
Yes Supervision, we had the discussion on RR types some time ago (2010 probably). Yes the Mosfet is a shunt and the Compufire is a series regulating RR which does offer some clear benefits over the shunt. No one has spent the bucks yet to try it so the jury is still out here. I am interested in the Compufire, but I am testing the Mosfet currently and currently in no rush to spend $200 plus shipping.
Be the first to give it a whirl!
" In the Series style the voltage regulator turns the charging system off. Therefore there is no magnetic field between the stator and rotor reducing engine load and heat build up."
FYI- you cannot shut off the field on our charging systems...the flywheel has a permanant magnet. So a Series R/R won't work. :police:
Thank you Jason, you are correct.
I was just about to comment on that...
You can't shut the magnet down but you can intermittently ground one or more stator coils thereby reducing output and heat generated.
no, I don't think I buy that, the magnets are creating power in
the stator. whether you do something with it or not.
shorting it to ground I suspect is where the heat is getting created.
typically if you short a wire out, it turns red hot and melts the insulation.
but with a simple light load on it, you'll find that the wire is maybe warm to the touch.
in my unqualified opinion, the reason the mosfet transistor is popular now is because
it is better able to fool the stator into thinking there is a slight load and allows it to run cooler.
someone who is more versed in the tech could probably give the details on the duty cycle
and how it behaves.
-Ron
Where is leather when you need him?
sure, but lets look at it logically.
your typical alternator uses an electromagnet to create power in the stator,
alternators are what modern automobiles and many motorcycles use.
it's much easier to control your power output by energizing the magnet
as needed. That is my understanding of how current is regulated.
All alternators are AC and need a rectifier to convert to dc.
so now with many motorcycles including the vision, due to cost consideration,
Permanent magnets are used instead of an electromagnet.
The permanent magnets are always lighting up the stator, the regulator
either shunts to ground or goes into the charging circuit
and the current is rectified to before going back to the battery.
Now obviously this is just a simplified explanation
but this is what makes me wonder. would it be smarter to just go open circuit
so instead of shunting current to a ground, one or more legs of the stator circuit
become open, thereby ( in theory ) reducing the heat because there is no load.
so then if this is indeed how the switching transistor is able to to go open circuit
on one or more of the legs, then that might explain the cooler running and
how several bike manufacturers have ( potentially ) solved the stator problem.
if you hunt around on many honda / kawasaki / suzuki forums you'll find that they are having stator/reg/rec failures as often as the vision does. the mosfet regulators seem to be the cure...
it's on my todo list
ymmv
-Ron
an open circuit will do nothing with it's power that is how one would turn 'off' a charging system. It would not matter what the configuration. Our permanent magnet systems will do nothing with the potential if they are unhooked from the system. There is no 'backup' of power if there is nowhere for it to go.
exactly, so, no load, no heat, no fried stator.
all praise to the technology gods ;-)
Quoteno, I don't think I buy that, the magnets are creating power in the stator. whether you do something with it or not
Not true, when the stator is grounded it's no longer producing power otherwise stators that fail by shorting to ground would continue to function. The scenario I described was used way back when on some Japanese models that utilized current limiters. They were 3 phase full wave systems that had conventional 6 diode rectifiers. Connected in between the 3 sets of 2 rectifier diodes were 3 thyristors (linked to ground) and a zener diode linked to bat + which comprised the "limiter". It sensed and dealt with over charging by systematically shutting down stator legs by grounding them. There may have been 3 different resistors employed as well to incrementally stagger the stator's shutdown. It's been a while and I don't recall all the details.
Automotive and older motorcycle used AC alternators with an excitable DC powered field. AC output was determined by field strength controlled by a mechanical regulator. Whatever AC was made went through a conventional full bridge rectifier to charge the battery. In bikes, although an efficient system, the inherent complexity (both manufacture and diagnosis) and cost to produce was it's demise.
I think when you refer to heat generated by grounding current is the typical scenario described when talking about conventional R/R like the OEM Vision unit and others - maybe even the MOSFET? I never quite understood this explanation or merits of the system but the permanent magnet/stator produces full output all the time relative to RPM and regardless of need. The excess is then "shunted" to ground by the regulating part of the R/R where all the electrons zip around inside the frame forever and ever or until exhaustion and they fall asleep or die. ??? :D This system apparently generates lots of heat in both the stator and R/R. The latter was apparently addressed by MOSFET circuitry but not necessarily the former.
True. When current flows and heat is dissipated, power is created. P=IE. The only way to stop current flow with coils moving through an magnetic field is to open the circuit. Even if you ground both sides of a coil, current will flow when magnetic and electrical fields move through one another. BDC
Hmmm, interesting. So would you say there is less, more, or the same heat/current flow in a grounded stator vs. and ungrounded stator? And what is the path of the current flow?
I would say that there is approximately the same heat/current flow in a grounded stator leg as its all going to ground somewhere anyway. If you are grounding all outputs of stator I would think that a measurement of AC output at different RPM's would help to measure actual Voltages and calculate power losses. Whatever Voltage is generated by a stator winding will be dissipated as heat across any resistance the current meets in its flow to ground. The Vision system has an ungrounded neutral so current should flow into any two legs of the stator while flowing out one leg and so on ad infinitum. Its where the heat is dissipated that causes problems, better the RR unit and electrical components than the engine case or stator windings and wires. Shorting out one or more windings of the stator to ground is not what causes the stator to fail, its the heat build-up that causes the circuit to overheat and eventually open up. BDC
Amen, Thank you Bobby.
a broken system is still a broken system. if it's a shorted stator it's broken.
what I found suggested somewhere else on the web is that the new style
regulator operates by cycling from shunt to open circut to control the voltage
and produce less heat. hence the term duty cycle. so if that is a given then
potentially, vision stator problems are a thing of the past..
now that_ is a bombshell, guess we'll have to lose the flame logo that I'm so fond of :D
Bobby, thanks for the response and just to clarify I'm not suggesting grounding a stator causes it to fail. Overheating can open the circuit (more typically) but also can ground it when the insulative material burns/melts away allowing contact wrap to wrap and to the stator core. Obviosly it's cooked by then so my analogy of decresaed output is a mute point. Having said that I doubt the output (intact but grounded) is similar to an un-grounded stator or at least relative to what the R/R realizes. Speaking of heat, my understanding is the Vision system is prone to high stator and engine case temps - even with good connections. You seem to suggest the heat is isolated to the R/R but later site heat build up in the stator as a factor to it's demise? Maybe I'm misunderstand your comments.
ArrrGeee, that's a very interesting notion that of the hybrid R/R, can you provide a link? I wonder if any motorcycle used the open stator approach to voltage regualtion. It seems odd that the shunted R/R type became and remains the dominant in use yet opening the stator is apparently (in theory) the way to go. A hybrid system seems even more dubious. If one approach is vastly more effective and results in less heat why fool around with the other even in a partial capacity. Perhaps there's more to it than vague theory!? ;D :D
Rikki, I've been referring to the FET (mosfet) type regulator.
now obviously, I've been using some generalizations in my descriptions
but I was trying to convey the general concepts.
there are reasons for both style of alternators, and I believe that
all of the bike manufacturers would prefer a standard alternator type if there
was enough room or it didn't make the engine too wide.
ie you can't run brushes in an oil bath.
regulating a permanant magnet system has a different set of challenges
that apparently has eluded all of the bike manufacturers for some time.
a big one for us is the age of the bike and the quality of the connectors.
so, again here's to hoping the technology gods have fixed the nagging stator problem once and for all
{{ymmv}}
-Ron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YazISsTVGec
Rikugan,
Quote from: Rikugun on July 05, 2012, 02:14:41 PM
You can't shut the magnet down but you can intermittently ground one or more stator coils thereby reducing output and heat generated.
Normal output circuitry will always have rectifiers presenting a load to AC output Voltages (Which limits current flow and in turn, power dissipation.) plus regulated DC loads. Whenever a ground is introduced upstream of the rectifiers it no doubt will cause the Voltage to decrease because load resistance will move toward zero while current flow will rise toward infinity. Therein lies the problem area, coils and stator wires are not designed to handle this extreme power dissipation (heat). Below are arbitrary numbers showing how the stator system will have to dissipate heat while trying to maintain Output Voltage when the load resistance is reduced to zero.
Output Voltage (E) Load Resistance (R) Current (I) Power (IxE) Watts
100 VAC 10 Ohms 10 Amps 1000 Watts
100 VAC 5 Ohms 20 Amps 2000 Watts
100 VAC 2.5 Ohms 50 Amps 5000 Watts
100 VAC 0 Ohms Infinite Amps Weakest spot burns up and opens circuit
Admittedly, Output Voltage will likely decrease beyond ability of coils to maintain normal Voltages. Even so,Ohms Law says that current will increase exponentially until something gives. Our system gives up when wiring overheats and opens. If we had heavier duty wires it would just have a heat build-up and that's not good either. Voila, the constant rectifier load plus whatever the regulator presents is within the design parameters of our system.
BDC
Goggle, SSR-vs-FH0122AA Best explanation of the series reg.
Ron, Well that is interesting. This is the first I've heard the MOSFET functioned by cycling between shunt and "opening" the stator circuit. Admittedly, I haven't done much research on them in general. I knew they charge at low RPM and run cooler so when the time came for replacement I used one. I've read claims (including on this site) that they're still a shunt style and the stators were therefore still vulnerable to heat damage so this is the first regarding the enhanced functionality. I thought the YouTube link would be a technical dissertation on the matter but was disappointed >:( Is that yours or just a random bike with the MOSFET mod?
Thanks for the explanation Bobby. I especially liked "Admittedly, Output Voltage will likely decrease beyond ability of coils to maintain normal Voltages." That must be where theory runs into practical reality!? :D
Rikugan,
Quote from: Rikugun on July 09, 2012, 11:20:35 AM
Thanks for the explanation Bobby. I especially liked "Admittedly, Output Voltage will likely decrease beyond ability of coils to maintain normal Voltages." That must be where theory runs into practical reality!? :D
I don't know for sure how well the circuitry works, reckoned I'd throw that out there and see if anyone would correct me. Used to work at a transformer company and engineers would tell me how little I knew, the engineer who owned the company said he thought that he knew transformers until he talked with a physicist. BDC
Quote from: supervision on July 08, 2012, 07:14:19 PM
Goggle, SSR-vs-FH0122AA Best explanation of the series reg.
"Your search - SSR-vs-FH0122AA - did not match any documents. "
have a link ?
no, the video was just an example of another manufacturer having charging problems
and going with a mosfet convert, it's an epidemic evidently.
Sorry Rikki, Bobby has got me beat in the rocket science dept, I was just paraphrasing
what I had read elsewhere on the net. The mosfet style regulator uses a fast switching transistor
that duty cycles between shunt and ground, possibly many times per second.
this reduces the load and also the heat created.
here is a brief ( possibly better) description from another site:
<quote>
What is the difference between a thyristor and a MOSFET based R/R?
The switches in the Regulator part are either type, but they both do the same thing... The rapidly turn on and off, shortcircuiting power to ground to keep voltage constant... That's called "Shunting", and almost every type of bike R/R used now is made this way...
Every time you short circuit something, it creates heat, just from the short circuit... That's the same for both types... But, the difference is in how you switch!
On a thyristor based R/R the most heat isn't from the shortcircuit, it's from the switching... A thyristor is basically a diode with a separate leg, acting as a switch... But the switch has a delay... The thyristor relies on the current flowing through it, to keep it open...
Basically the switch opens the door a crack, and then waits for the current to crash into the door, slamming it open... Closing it is similar... You slowly, slowly push the door closed enough until the current looses power and cant hold the door open, slamming it shut...
As a result, the thyristor is horribly inexact and inefficient... It takes time to switch, and it creates huge amounts of heat while doing it...
The MOSFET is a bit more intelligent... It doesn't rely on the current for opening the door, and it doesn't try to close it slowly... Instead the switch is really a switch... Switching it on means it starts to conduct fast, and switching it off means it stops almost as fast... That creates a lot less heat, and makes it more exact... A lot more exact.
</quote>
hopefully that helps.
-Ron
http://www.scribd.com/doc/38765620/SSR-vs-FH012AA is the link. I am skeptical of sales pitches involving technical information I don't understand. They may have a winner or it may be more spin. Until I hear differently from a trusted 3rd party source I remain skeptical. ;)
Still, the MOSFET acts nicely and should be a better unit in the long term than the original one. :laugh:
I've read many in depth descriptions of the internal workings and concepts of the various types of R/R's from very knowledgeable people. In my opinion it's all conjecture. Not to take anything from their expertise in their fields of study mind you. I'm sure their theory is for the most part sound despite not always being in complete agreement with the next experts claims.
As far as I know, no 100% accurate and complete schematics exist of even the older style R/R's. Any schematics in repair manuals are depictions of the main components in so far as to support the testing and diagnosis of them. And I've yet to see any for a MOSFET that would hint at their internal components BTW. The manufacturers have an incentive to keep their proprietary info close to the chest for competitive reasons. They don't freely share the exact details with each other and certainly not with the motorcycling community at large.
I installed a MOSFET with a brand new stator and only time will tell how long lived it is. If it gives good service I guess I can live without knowing all the particulars. Just my 2 cents. ;) :) :D
Quote from: Rikugun on July 06, 2012, 10:21:31 AM
Quoteno, I don't think I buy that, the magnets are creating power in the stator. whether you do something with it or not
Not true, when the stator is grounded it's no longer producing power otherwise stators that fail by shorting to ground would continue to function. The scenario I described was used way back when on some Japanese models that utilized current limiters. They were 3 phase full wave systems that had conventional 6 diode rectifiers. Connected in between the 3 sets of 2 rectifier diodes were 3 thyristors (linked to ground) and a zener diode linked to bat + which comprised the "limiter". It sensed and dealt with over charging by systematically shutting down stator legs by grounding them. There may have been 3 different resistors employed as well to incrementally stagger the stator's shutdown. It's been a while and I don't recall all the details.
Automotive and older motorcycle used AC alternators with an excitable DC powered field. AC output was determined by field strength controlled by a mechanical regulator. Whatever AC was made went through a conventional full bridge rectifier to charge the battery. In bikes, although an efficient system, the inherent complexity (both manufacture and diagnosis) and cost to produce was it's demise.
I think when you refer to heat generated by grounding current is the typical scenario described when talking about conventional R/R like the OEM Vision unit and others - maybe even the MOSFET? I never quite understood this explanation or merits of the system but the permanent magnet/stator produces full output all the time relative to RPM and regardless of need. The excess is then "shunted" to ground by the regulating part of the R/R where all the electrons zip around inside the frame forever and ever or until exhaustion and they fall asleep or die. ??? :D This system apparently generates lots of heat in both the stator and R/R. The latter was apparently addressed by MOSFET circuitry but not necessarily the former.
FYI...50VAC FROM A STATOR LEG TO GROUND ...IS A SHORT CIRCUIT.NOW THAT'S HEAT. what you may not know. you do not have a 3 leg stator. You actually have ONE wire that is just simply tapped for output in 3 places. "3 leg" in a misnomer. A short to ground measured on the coils anywhere is a short to all.
Yes I'm aware there are three legs and obviously they're interconnected as resistance checks are meant to verify. ;) The fact is there are or were current limiters in use that shutdown legs by grounding them to reduce output. How much voltage or heat this produces to ground I doubt anyone here is smart enough to know or if it results in more heat than with the stator at full output. I respectfully submit the teams of professionals employed by the manufactureres thought whatever heat may be produced was manageable.
Does one grounded leg completely nullify AC output to the R/R or will there be some output albeit at a reduced rate? The diagrams I've seen show all the legs having circuitry to ground them and in some cases sequentially. This would refute the notion that grounding one leg completely nullifies output as the added cost and complexity of those circuits would be redundant. I'm not convinced the output would be the same measured from A to B, A to C, and B to C under those circumstances. It's been some time since I've encountered one to test so I won't agree or disagree but I have my doubts it's the same. I can't say for sure because I'm one of the non experts here on the ROV. ;D