Tank Warfare!

[Tiffanator]

Yes... its another episode of Tiffanator vs Vision... and once again the Vision has claimed victory. It may have won this battle, but it has not (and will not) win the war. I have to get this bike running, its a matter of principle now.

Ok, here's the story. I decide to soak the tank with acetone to remove the Kreme liner. I take the very welcome advice of reckon and pick up some modeling clay at the hobby store. I sit down last night with my tank, clay and duct tape. Now, "poor" would be giving this tank too much credit. Many many holes rusted in the 4 famous corners of the tank, the gas cap no longer seals, (I'll tell you how I found that out in a minute), surface rust that I thought I had removed came back, when you pick the tank up it sounds like one of those rain sticks with bits of flaked kreme and rust migrating from one end to the other through the forest of collapsed kreme liner. 

I sit down at the kitchen table (I live alone) with the tank and start smearing clay over all the holes. I get a good thick layer, making sure to press down firmly and smear out the edges to form a good seal. Once I'm satisfied I cover the clay with the duct tape, making sure again to press down and cover every bit of the clay to hold everything in place. I repeat the process on the inside and outside of all 4 corners til the tank is almost completely envoloped in a clay/duct tape cocoon. I grab up the tank and march into the garage, thinking I'm finally going to do something right the first time... NEVER EVER THINK THAT.

I lay the tank out on a towel.. just in case there are a few drips.. don't want acetone all over my garage floor (har har). In goes one gallon of acetone through a funnel, and of course it drips off the bottom of the can and leaves a nice puddle at my feet, thanks, so much for the no acetone on the floor deal. I stop after that one gallon to check for leaks. Placing a paper towel under each corner I wait. It only takes a matter of seconds before I see the first wet spot appearing. DANG IT! Its the back corner, so I stand the tank up to inspect. Then as I stand the tank up a front corner begins to leak. So I think.. I'll just put the cap on and flip it upside down... WRONG. This is the precise moment I learn the cap no longer seals. Out comes the funnel and the acetone goes back into the can. It is already starting to work and chunks of kreme and rust are pouring out with the liquid.. at least I know it will be clean if I ever get it to stay in there.

Once it is empty I lay it upside down and begin to rebuild the two bad corners. I get them done, then duct tape once again. Fill her up and all appears ok. In goes the second gallon. I form a clay gasket around the fill hole and duct tape it securely, so now everything is sealed.... for 30 seconds. I notice yet another leak. Now having 2 gallons (becoming less than that by the second) of acetone in the tank makes things more fun.  I'll spare the hour of picky details, but I ended up rebuilding each corner at least twice, one or two of them 3 times. I finally get to where there are no leaks at all. Half smile and walk inside, leaving the tank sitting on a few paper towels and the big towel.

About 15 minutes later I go out to check on the tank before going to bed. As soon as I opened the door I knew something was wrong. The strong smell of acetone punched me in the nose. Yep, the clay on one corner had cracked open and 90% of the 2 gallons of acetone was soaking into my garage floor. I grab the soaked towel and throw it into the driveway and was the rest out with a water hose. I stand the tank up so no more liquid flows out and call it a night. Come out this morning and what do I find? Yep.. the rest leaked out of my "sealed" fill hole. Not only that... it brought out some rust and Kreme with it.. so i have a very pretty white/yellow/rust colored stain in the garage and a tank that holds liquid almost as well as a collander.
I have lost all faith in clay, and my ability to put it on a tank. It just doesn't stick, maybe I got the wrong kind of clay. Tonight I'm going to experiment with silicone to see if that will resist being dissolved by acetone, if so I'm going to seal everything with that.

The only thing I could think when I say the final failure was... glad I didn't use 5 gallons.
Advice? Help? Backup requested.
Tiff.

[YellowJacket!]

I love your writing style.  ;D  ;D

David

[Lucky]

clean off all the clay & try duct (duck? whatever!) tape directly, or better yet Gorilla tape (from the folks who make gorilla glue)

--Lucky

[Night Vision]

IMO there is absolutely nothing wrong with your technique....... because....

If it ain't worth doing it the hard way......................... it ain't worth doing it at all  ;D

first off, not many here have done the unkreem job... I'm sure there are nuiances that are learned over a couple of trys... maybe Reckon can go into more detail as far as certain types of materials...

I know that duct tape can be "cheap" or as Lucky said.... the good stuff... DaveTN says he had good results using duct tape on a "por" job..... I had no luck with duct tape on any "por" job... the glue always melted... I ended up using a magnetic business card (one that'll stick to a fridge) cut to size, to cover the petcock holes... and then duct tape over that...

the caps always leaked so I didn't worry about the top of the tank that much...

[Kevin]

Go buy a rubbermaid container that will hold the gas tank. I had a rusty tank a few years ago that I cleaned out with sulfuric acid. It was in the summer and I was in the driveway. I had the tank on a sawhorse. and had taken an old petcock and plugged it off. I pored 2 gallons off acid in the the tank and had just stepped back  to admire my ingenuity when the acid melted through the potmetal petcock. Acid will work but there are safer chemicals to use.   

[smknjoe1964]

Hey Tiff !
Im getting an 83 tank soon and I will have an extra 82 tank that is in usable shape ! Interested ???

[Tiffanator]

Hey all, thanks for the replies. Guess what I used to dissolve and remove the clay remnants...ACETONE! Well there's your problem right there. Yes, the acetone was breaking down the clay, so apparently I bought the wrong stuff. Interestingly enough though... hot melt glue held up decently well when I dropped it in a tub of acetone for 45 minutes. I worry that it will break down over time though because when I took it out it appeared to be getting slightly brittle. I'm going to drop a glob of silicone sealant in there now.
Dave... thanks, when you live a boring life like I do, you have to learn to make any small event seem interesting.
Lucky... took your advice and cleaned off all the clay, making sure I had a very clean surface. I applied the duct tape and pressed firmly to ensure a good tight seal. It managed to hold the acetone in for about 5 minutes before the glue melted. Good idea that seemed to work at first. This acetone is rough stuff.
Night Vision... Yes, I do everything the hard way. I've ruled out clay and duct tape, but since some of the holes are on the curved surface of the tank and around compound curves I'm not sure a magnetic strip would be flexible enough to get a good seal around them. Could be handy for the holes on flat surfaces though.
Kevin... Big rubbermaid is on my list of things to get. Thanks for the tip, I thought about getting something for it to sit in, but didn't. Lesson learned.
Smknjoe... I'm beginning to think a new tank may be the easiest. I'm really going to try to make this tank work though. I'll keep you in mind though.

If all else fails I can always JB weld the holes and move on, which is what is going to happen after the tank is clean. I was just hoping to get all the Kreem and rust out so the JB would have something substantial to bond to around the inside of the holes. That is my last resort effort.
Thanks all. I'll keep you updated on my progress (or lack thereof).
Tiff

[Night Vision]

after going through all the trouble of cleaning out the tank... don't just JB weld it...

por can fill substantial holes and the Caswell would probably do even better. give it your best shot

[reckon]

I should be shot for leaving this out,.......


there are several different types of "modeling clay", and only ONE that I know of works: JOLLY KING

http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=111&

it's PLASTELINE, not PLASTICINE, and apparently there is a difference.

sorry for not mentioning that.

I am currently working on the worst tank EVER,.......I'm sure just a little worse than the one in this thread.

I'm taking pix as I go, and I'll post a pic laden "how to", including some tricks you may, or may not be aware of.

laying a BAD tank on it's side, and only using a gal of acetone at a time will also work, just takes longer is all.

I admire your persistence, and keep at it, you WILL win in the long run (depending on how much money you have/are willing to spend)

[Tiffanator]

AH!!! The almight Reckon has spoken! Let me write this down so as to not forget. P-L-A-S-T-E-L-I-N-E. Got it!
I should have read better, once the clay failed for the 5th time I started reading the package (genius) and learned that the clay I purchased is a wax based clay that is permanently pliable.
I'll get some pics of my tank tonight.. now that the old clay is cleaned off.  We'll compare, although I'm thinking with the number of tanks you have done, yours is by far worse than mine.

My mom told me to give the "hunk of crap" back to my cousin so I'll have more space in my garage. She doesn't know I'm still working on it, don't think I'll tell her til I ride it over to her house. My view on the situation... its not her garage.
ONWARD BRAVE SOLDIERS!  ;D
Tiff.
P.S... did I spell genius correctly?

[kiawrench]

tiff,
if it gets to be too much-- there is a solution !!
take the tank to a radiator shop, beg them to clean tank out , a quick smile, a fast six pack or two, and maybe some cash, they will do it ,and it comes back clean. then you can use lab metal or the caswell product to fix all the leaks and seal the interior from further rust . por is just fine too, but i havent used it in a long time, the lab metal and caswell has been my route for all types of tanks, even works on bio-diesel holding tanks .

[louthepou]

I'll add my 0.02:

Did the radiator shop twice. It wasn't cheap (First time, sone 15 years ago: $200; second time, about 5 years ago, $300). Tanks came out better than new (better, because they won't rust at the speed of light, like the original).

Hang in there!

Lou

[firstone]

    I recently went through a similar experience.  The tank had so many leaks that when I went to swish the acetone around I thought I was watering my shoes with a wateringcan full of acetone. 
Here is what I did:
    Once you have used acetone or similar material in the tank you will have removed any trace of gasoline, so. Drain all acetone and air out the tank with a hair dryer for a few hours.  Search out and mark any areas where you have had leaks.  Sand the area to clean them well and using a bit acid flux and a soldering iron solder the pinholes shut.  Work carefully to get them all.  You should end up with a bunch of small bumps about 1/16 to 1/8" larger then the pinholes in diameter and about 1/16 tall.  The solder should be of the leaded variety, I have not used the non-lead stuff to date.  Once the holes are sealed wash out the tank with water! You must remove all traces of the flux both inside and out to prevent the acid from eating away the tank and causing issues with paint.  Dry out as above.
    As for the petcock hole, cork gasket and a small piece of metal with 2 holes drilled through it for the petcock screws.  This sealed the area without leaks throughout the cleaning process.
    As for the filler hole, a large molly, the type with expanding wings that will fit across the opening, and more gasket and a small piece of plywood.  This dripped a little from the center where the molly went through the plywood when I turned it upside down, but only a few drips no pouring or anything.
    Then clean it out with the acetone as described in other articles.
    I used the Casewel's material to seal the tank using the entire can in one application.  I rolled the material around the entire interior of the tank and as it got closer to the point where it was going to set up I  set the tank level with even portions (best effort) to both the right and left sides of the tank.  The finished tank is completely covered inside with about a 1/8" thick layer at the petcock.  The low points of the tank were eliminated, the lowest point being the petcock hole.  I drilled through the epoxy and cleaned out the area with a dremel tool.  The Casewel's being an epoxy will setup in the thick sections, no more water traps!

Hope this helps!

[Tiffanator]

Thanks everyone. Kia and Lou, I didn't think about a radiator shop. I did however consider going to a body shop to see if they could clean it and seal it up for me... cause there is also a dent in the top that needs to be pulled. I wouldn't think it would be that much... but I may be wrong.
Firestone, thanks for the detailed writeup. I didn't think about solder, may have to just see how that works. I do leaded glass too so I have a high power soldering iron and plenty of flux and solder. There are some pretty big holes that need to be filled though.
Thanks all, I'm still working on it.
Tiff

[kiawrench]

no matter how you chose to go with this, remember ,some members do have and have offered spare tanks they happen to have.

   i would send you one of the two i have, but both are currently mounted and in use .and neither is really in great shape,lot of covered dents .

     i am still working on idea of replacing th etank on my bobber project, still working on the idea of using a split tank set up from another bike. saw a few done over on a few other sites, looks like a do-able idea .

[firstone]

BTW Tiffanator: if you have done stained glass look at the copper foil tape used to seal the edges of the glass to allow them to be soldered.  This tape can be used to bridge larger holes and allow the solder to seal the tank.   ;)

[ColinthePilot]

My mom told me to give the "hunk of crap" back to my cousin so I'll have more space in my garage. She doesn't know I'm still working on it, don't think I'll tell her til I ride it over to her house. My view on the situation... its not her garage.

HA. My mother would freak out if she knew I had a bike...for a year. "those damn things are death machines." Luckily I live a few thousand miles away :)

[Tiffanator]

I figured I would bring this thread back up since this is another question relating to the tank.  I have soaked the tank in acetone for 5 days give or take. I've had multiple leaks and in the end wound up with probably only one gallon or less of the two I started with. However, I've decided to move forward since the acetone that is leaking out is a nice tannish milky color.. meaning Kreme is dissolving. Now I plan to soak again with Muriatic acid to remove the rust and hopefully leave me with a sparkly clean tank to POR.
Question: How do I get ALL of the acetone and crap that is suspended in the acetone OUT of the tank? I've turned it upside down, sloshed it around and I'm getting drips but there's still a lot left in there. I really want to get all of the acetone and small bits of liner/rust out to have a nice clean tank. I don't want to let the acetone just evaporate out, I know it will, but that will leave a nasty residue behind and I'll be accomplishing nothing.
Any help? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

In other news... The bike REALLY wants to start. I'll feed her a little gas from a can and she will fire up then die. Oh man.. so close. The carbs need one more dip, getting a nice stream from one but kinda a starvin marvin spittle from the other. Going to pull them off this afternoon for another clean. Hopefully I'll get the tank ready to go back on soon and we'll see for sure.
I'm motivated.
Thanks for all the help.
Tiff

[Night Vision]

repleatedly flush the tank out with a garden hose and let the junk spew out the top and petcock opening.... you'll have to dilute the muriatic acid with water anyway and flush that out again a couple more times with water....

after all that, you'll dry the tank with a hair dryer... there's no avoiding flash rust or have a completely shiny rust free tank.... the por actually sticks better to a flash rust coat

[Tiffanator]

Thanks NV, I soaked the tank with a water hose and still can't seem to get all the junk out. I'll go ahead and soak the muriatic acid and I'll worry about fishing out everything afterwards.
Note to self.. muriatic acid fumes cause a VERY quick discoloration of metal. I have a brownish-greenish-black tank now. Pretty interesting. I'll get that cleaned up before painting.
Next question: What ratio do I dilute the acid?
Thanks
Tiff.