Riders Of Vision

General => TechTalk => Topic started by: b_racuda on March 10, 2015, 07:27:07 AM

Title: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on March 10, 2015, 07:27:07 AM
Hello,

Last driving season finally ended when starter failed, almost whole summer went repairing and not driving. It was frustrating. Also when driving at low speeds the front end bounced the whole time. I believe that bouncing was due the worn steering stem bearings and old oils in the front forks. Engine was also washed with gasoline due the petcock broke down. I drove under 2000km and changed the oil at least three times because of the repairings. Next summer I wish I can drive with Vision and not to repair. So thats why I started now to restore my Vision.

I am planning to do the following steps:

1) powder coat the frame, upper tree, front brake calibers and swing arm
2) clean and polish everything
3) ultrasonic cleaning for the carburetor
4) new steering stem bearings, tapered
5) new bearings for front and rear wheel
6) new bearings for swing arm
7) starter rebuilt
8) starter clutch bolts check
9) fuel tank repair, POR 15 to inside and painting the outside
10) front forks oil change
11) repair one thread from the left side of engine, it broke down when I changed the stator (over tightened)

Previously I have changed stator, fuse box, wiring from starter solenoid to starter, changed new rectifier (Honda CBR), changed the cams, adjusted the valves, changed fittings under the carbs, changed the petcock.

Few questions:

a) I believe that Vision engine was not polished when it was new, more like satin finish. Any suggestions how I can get my engine close to original finish, soda blasting and lacquer?
b) is there anything else what should be done now when everything is apart and engine on the table?
c) can I use Helicoil to repair the thread in the engine?
d) I need those rubber things where to attach the fairings, where can I purchase those?
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: QBS on March 10, 2015, 01:39:16 PM
A few observations:  You probably don't need wheel and swing arm bearings.  Changing the fork oil is a good idea.  POR-15 is a very good idea.  The engine was polished and clear coated at the factory.  Helicoil repair the way to go.  Assuming that you are referring to the round doughnut shaped rubber pieces  used to attach the  plastic covers to the fairing and gas tank, those are often called "grommets" and might be available from a Yamaha repair depot or a well stocked hardware store.  Please see my recently posted comments on the General Board of this Forum regarding fuel petcocks, fuel filters and inline fuel cutoff valves.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Re-Vision on March 10, 2015, 02:07:27 PM
Quote from: b_racuda on March 10, 2015, 07:27:07 AM

I am planning to do the following steps:

1) powder coat the frame, upper tree, front brake calibers and swing arm

Few questions:

a) I believe that Vision engine was not polished when it was new, more like satin finish. Any suggestions how I can get my engine close to original finish, soda blasting and lacquer?

Powder coating the swingarm requires removing fluid and I'm not sure how the rubber seals inside will handle the heat.

There have been several comments on how to restore Front Fork Assemblies and I believe that those techniques would apply to the engine as well.         BDC
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on March 10, 2015, 02:21:20 PM
Quote from: b_racuda on March 10, 2015, 07:27:07 AM
d) I need those rubber things where to attach the fairings, where can I purchase those?
You mean the Mirror Rubbers?
You can get reproductions here http://www.bdesigns.ca/Reproductions.htm (http://www.bdesigns.ca/Reproductions.htm)

Other than that I don't recall that the fairing is rubber mounted
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on March 11, 2015, 03:37:21 AM
Thanks QBS, grommets are the ones I meant! Please find attached picture.

So if I take whole swing arm to pieces, there are still rubber parts inside? So if the swing arm are in the shape like in this picture: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yamaha-1982-XZ-Vision-550-XZ550-Swingarm-Swing-Arm-Black-/360673592716 

Sorry I didn´t look what Haynes saids before I posted.

When I look old commercials pictures of Vision the engine does not have shiny surface, it is more like satin finish. I personally don´t like chrome like shine at Vision engine. In these pictures the difference between engine and chrome exhaust pipe is very clear http://www.xz550.de/tp3/fileadmin/xz-werbung/82h.jpg (http://www.xz550.de/tp3/fileadmin/xz-werbung/82h.jpg) and http://www.xz550.de/tp3/fileadmin/xz-werbung/83f.jpg (http://www.xz550.de/tp3/fileadmin/xz-werbung/83f.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: QBS on March 11, 2015, 12:26:55 PM
Wow! What a great shot of that bike.  It really shows the cornering and lean angle potential of our bikes.  It's a lot more than I've ever knowingly used, but I always suspected that it there.  Very impressive for the times and tires.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: dingleberry on March 12, 2015, 03:34:27 AM
I thought from that shot that it might be on slicks but the front looks like a speedmaster tyre. Brave man. Really screams sports tourer doesn't it - the panniers fell off on the last two corners.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Jirik on March 12, 2015, 06:36:48 AM
Many of rubber pieces can be found in UK shop: http://yambits.co.uk/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=XZ550
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on March 12, 2015, 06:57:12 AM
I don't know that it's a real picture.  The bike is probably propped up on bricks - that's the only way mine is getting a lean angle like that.

You can clearly see that the crankcase is painted.  Only the side covers and top end are polished and clearcoated.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: QBS on March 12, 2015, 01:31:04 PM
Thank you Jirik for the UK part link.  What a wonderful place.  Attention to ALL: On page 3 of that website, third item down from the top, is shown supposed availability of the "copper exhaust gasket".  Not sure, but think this item is NLA no longer available in USA.  It is a consumable part and a critical piece for a solid V exhaust system. 
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on March 12, 2015, 02:21:48 PM
Those gaskets weren't available here either - which is why I ended up doing the flange mod on the XZ400 exhaust.
Still leaves the single gasket in the rear NLA, but that can be substituted with some gasket compound reasonably successfully.

Nice site with OK pricing,  I'll be sending them my credit card details soon as long as they don't gauge on postage.

Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Rikugun on March 12, 2015, 03:10:40 PM
Based on the description, I'm not sure that those gaskets are the critical ones for the "Y"pipe.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on March 12, 2015, 05:31:42 PM
I think it's the right one, but a misleading description.
The one that fits against the head is a flat cut asbestos faced gasket, rather than a plain copper crush washer like this
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Rikugun on March 13, 2015, 09:58:06 AM
Back in the 80's when I worked at a Kawasaki dealership all the street models (as well as others) used copper crush donuts in the cylinder head ports. Suzukis used the built up metal and organic gaskets. We would regularly use what ever was in stock (or cheaper) for any model as long as the diameter was correct - the exhaust header flange cares not. Either can be reused BTW in most cases.

Since owning the Vision I've purchased copper exhaust gaskets advertised to fit the XZ and they did not fit the Y pipe but rather were sized for the exhaust port.  Just because it's copper and sold for the XZ, I wouldn't assume it will fit the Y pipe. It very well might but to be sure I'd email the seller and get a confirmation on the ID.  Not trying to be preachy but don't make the same mistake I did unless you're willing to roll the dice with cost.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on March 20, 2015, 11:32:50 PM
I have decided to paint the engine with aluminium color motor paint. The frame needs some protection to the critical parts before I hand it over to the powder coating company.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on April 12, 2015, 09:46:41 AM
Finally got my starter removed, wonder it seezed...
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on May 21, 2015, 03:50:46 PM
Little update, starter now repaired with repair kit from the ebay and painted.

Today I got my frame back from the powder painter. The frame is powder painted to black and lacquered, with laquer it seems like grey colored.

Also took my flywheel off to check starter clutch bolts. It was time to do this because 2 out of three bolts were loose! Seems that the clutch itself is quite ok. The plate holding rollers etc. in place has some damage which is shown in the picture, a large bit was loose but that was it.

Next step is to put starter clutch back to engine with new bolts with red loctite and peened ends. Also paint everything before putting them back together.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on July 04, 2015, 04:11:39 PM
Finally ready for ride! I decided to leave tank repairs to next winter.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: fiat-doctor on July 05, 2015, 11:40:28 AM
Nice job!!  You put a ton of work into her and she looks great.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on April 08, 2016, 01:52:02 PM
Flashback...  :D

Finally coated the tank with POR-15. Also decided to paint the rims black, they are at the powder coating company at the moment. Also new headlight, new speedo etc. After the POR-15 the tank seems to need new paint job. I think the color is changing too...
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on April 10, 2016, 10:36:37 AM
Saw a old comfort saddle for bicycle in the garage which was never used. Well I cut it open to saw what is inside. There was a gel pad! Decided to improve my Visions riding comfort installing the gel pad in Vision saddle. Now I have a good reason to do a new cover also.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on April 21, 2016, 11:02:41 AM
Progress, tank coated inside with POR 15 and painted outside with Oxford Green (from BMW color chart). Also rims are powder coated with black and new set of tires. Tires are Avon Roadrider, front 110/80 and rear 120/80.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Rikugun on April 22, 2016, 12:03:36 PM
The rims look awesome. I used those Avons on another bike and had good luck with them although the "stickiness" came with a longevity price.

The paint work looks great too. How were the tuning forks and "Yamaha" logos done?
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on April 23, 2016, 01:40:14 AM
Thanks Rikugun! The logos are stickers from Ebay, they are under clear coat. http://m.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-CARBON-FIBER-5in-12-7cm-decals-stickers-r6-fz1-keyboard-fz8-seca-zuma-rz-/351244684507?nav=SEARCH

This project is not anymore restoring, I have changed a lot of parts and the bike is not coming to look original anymore.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on April 27, 2016, 11:34:52 AM
Seat cover nearly finished, thanks to my wife :)

Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Rikugun on April 27, 2016, 09:58:00 PM
Those look like some nice seams - nice work.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on April 30, 2016, 02:05:48 PM
Really satisfied with the new seat cover. The seat is not yet attached but I was tempted to test how it looks. Also the new front tire (110/80) fits inside the original fender. I was trying to cover the front fender with carbon look sticker but it is difficult. Also I am not sure that it keeps proberly attached after the first rain. So thinking if I just paint it black...
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Re-Vision on April 30, 2016, 02:14:52 PM
The engine looks really nice too. Has it been painted or polished?     BDC
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on April 30, 2016, 06:48:58 PM
Engine is painted.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: QBS on April 30, 2016, 08:43:04 PM
The bike is beautiful.  How is it running?  How many miles on it?
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on April 30, 2016, 11:57:05 PM
Well, I have spend more time repairing than driving  ;D I have owned this bike for three years and there has been some good moments when the bike has been running beautifully. Then something has shown up and the bike has stalled (stator, starter, starter clutch, carburetors, ignition unit, R/R, valve clearances). Now every common  Vision problem is fixed so I am hoping to get whole summer just driving. The bike has 19500 kilometers in the odometer and I believe that the odometer is original. This Vision is model year 1984 and it was originally German low power model. I have also changed low power parts to full power parts.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Rikugun on May 01, 2016, 02:16:26 PM
Wow that is pretty. Very clean and lots of detail. I like the rim treatments and the fork brace as well.

Did you apply that carbon fiber sticker to the "fly screen" too? Looks nice.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on May 03, 2016, 04:47:27 PM
Nearly there, it lacks gasoline and one spring to brake pedal and the receiver for the speedometer. Glued the speedometer magnets today and have tomorrow figure out where and how to place the receiver :)
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on May 06, 2016, 03:11:55 AM
After first test drive, the aftermarket tachometer does not work from the Visions original tachometers grey wire. The aftermarket tachometer should be connected to the coils positive wire, anyone know which wire coming to coil is positive? The steering stem bearing still feels loose after second attempt to tighten it, I don´t know how tight you can put it. When the front wheel is not touching the ground the steering feels tight, but when riding it feels lose.

Also local newspaper visited to our neighbourhood and did some article about it. I was unlucky to give some interview and they wanted to take fotos where me and my son look to my Vision. They only made mistake when they wrote the article, they called the bike XD550. Here is the picture http://www.ess.fi/incoming/article2267616.ece/ALTERNATES/w980/1439504.jpg
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Walt_M. on May 06, 2016, 05:29:16 AM
You have done so much really good work that I hesitate to mention something so basic but, did you loosen the upper fork pinch bolts before you tightened the steering stem nut? Also, did you change the bearings to tapered rollers? I have not yet done it but I have heard those can be difficult to get tight. Good looking bike though.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on May 06, 2016, 06:08:19 AM
Thanks Walt! Actually I did change to tapered bearings and I did do it as it was descripted in Haynes manual. I also hammered with rubber hammer and pumped the front end before tightening and after when other bolts were loose. But I think it has something to do when the wheel is not touching the ground, I have to test to do it with the wheel on the ground and tighten them again.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: QBS on May 06, 2016, 10:01:56 AM
You say that "when riding it feels loose."  Please explain what you mean by "loose".

With wheel off the ground the handle bars should show little to no resistance to turning back and forth, lock to lock.  If there is resistance to turning back and forth the bike will show instability/oversteering pretty much in direct proportion to how much the steering stem bearings are over tightened.  The steering stem bearings should be tight only to the point where there is just the slightest amount of handle bar turning resistance with the wheel off the ground.  One finger pressure should easily move the handle bar back and forth.

All steering stem bearing adjustments must be made with the wheel off the ground.  It is the only way that the steering stem turning resistance can be judged.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Rikugun on May 06, 2016, 01:07:16 PM
QuoteThe aftermarket tachometer should be connected to the coils positive wire, anyone know which wire coming to coil is positive?

I believe it is the R/W wires.

Regarding the loose feeling while riding: There is an unlikely but easy to check item. I've only seen this once some time ago and I don't recall the reason why - perhaps improperly sized bearing races or the like?

Remove the steering stem bolt (22mm?) and make sure the top of the steering stem is slightly lower than the surface of the top triple clamp. If not, the top triple bracket at the stem will not be unified resulting in a loose feeling in the handlebars on rough roads, braking, etc. It's hard to describe but you may feel a "clunking" sensation. It should look like the picture.

Nice picture of you and your son but the Vision is the real celebrity of the neighborhood!
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on May 07, 2016, 02:20:31 AM
Rikugun, it just that clunking feeling when braking or driving rough roads. I have to check that steering stem bolt and take a picture. How tight You have to tighten that 22mm bolt?

Have to say that fork brace, new wheel bearings and 110/80 front tire did a good job for my bike. The ride feeling is a lot better than before. The steering is more accurate and the front end feels stiffer. Also when pushing the bike it is a lot easier than before.

With new Ignitech ignition the bike starts right away, with the old tci unit it took multiple cranks before starting. Only thing is that now it feels that I have to adjust the caburetors again. I may take my bike to dyno to adjust everything. I have also Ixil exhaust silencer waiting, when I have funds to pay somebody to build me a exhaust pipe (4-1).
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on May 07, 2016, 05:03:18 AM
Checked the bolt. Seems ok to me.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on May 07, 2016, 05:09:23 AM
Maybe I try one more time so that first the loosening every bolt and nut. Then steering stem nuts tight, after that steering stem bolt and then pinch bolts. I have to focus on that 22mm bolt that it is tight.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Walt_M. on May 07, 2016, 08:25:13 AM
Have you checked the front fork assembly? Your bike does not have enough kms on it to be worn bushings in the forks but are they original?
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on May 07, 2016, 02:50:56 PM
Rikugun, You were right, thanks! I took tank away and loosened pinch bolts, steering stem bolt and even loosened the steering stem nuts a bit. Then I took a rubber hammer and gived a good bangs to upper tree. Then I tightened first the steering stem bolt, then pinch bolts. Then went for a ride and the problem is solved!
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: QBS on May 07, 2016, 04:25:45 PM
Good for you b-r!  Excellent advice Rik.  Every V I've ridden or learned about has had a knock in the front end.  It was elicited by either aggressive application of the front brake, or rocking the bike back and forth against the front brake.   I've discussed it with several shops, techs, as well as Forum members.  The consensus is that the answer would be related to the steering stem.  To my knowledge, no fix was found.  Perhaps it has now been found.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Rikugun on May 08, 2016, 05:10:56 PM
b_racuda, glad you got it sorted out. I know those kinds of things can be frustratingly annoying.

QBS, thanks for the vote of confidence but there is another source of noise in the XZ fork - no bushing at the bottom of the stanchion. This leaves the end somewhat free to knock around in the lower leg. There was an article in German posted some time ago outlining a fix that purportedly addressed this issue.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on May 09, 2016, 01:25:58 PM
Seems like I have to take the first repairing again. The bike is not starting proberly when the engine is cold and some hesitation at low rpms.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: QBS on May 09, 2016, 02:55:49 PM
Best fix is to ultrasonically clean both carb bodies to the very best of your ability.  Otherwise, dip the carb bodies in the best available bulk carburetor cleaner, perhaps for several hours.

Question for Group:  Would a product like "Pine-Sol" or "Pine-Sol" itself be an effective carb cleaning product.  For those not familiar with this product, "Pine-Sol" is the brand name for a pine based household cleaning product sold throughout much of North America.  I seem to recall a discussion from long ago regarding using "Pine -Sol" as an ultrasonic cleaner dip for carb cleaning.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: fret not on May 10, 2016, 01:48:36 AM
I recall that discussion and Tiger was involved, but I don't recall if he was the one that suggested it.  It is a cleaner that dissolves oily substances for sure.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on May 10, 2016, 08:25:41 AM

I LOVE my ultrasonic cleaner.


Not that you can get it here, but I've checked the Pinesol FAQ and it says 
Quote"We do not recommend using Pine-Sol® Original Multi-Surface Cleaner on aluminum, copper or marble surfaces.  Read more at https://www.pinesol.com/faq/#multi-surface#qpyuJhAlIRP0orTW.99"


I use:
1 Tblspoon dishwashing concentrate per litre of water.
Stay clear of acids (vinegar turns aluminium black), or anything that could explode when vapourised.



Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Rikugun on May 10, 2016, 11:50:41 AM
I remember the Pine Sol discussions and some people may have been in favor of it. It does have some amount of glycolic acid which may damage aluminum if left soaking too long? The same can be said of commercial carb dips of the past so care should be taken depending on the strength of the cleaner. Here's a Dupont glycolic cleaner specifically for aluminum and copper.
https://www.chemours.com/Glycolic_Acid/es_MX/assets/downloads/K16080_Metal_Finishing.pdf (https://www.chemours.com/Glycolic_Acid/es_MX/assets/downloads/K16080_Metal_Finishing.pdf)



Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on May 13, 2016, 08:50:34 AM
Thanks guys for the advices. I decided to try ultrasonic cleaning. I take myself carburetors in pieces and deliver them to local motorcycle shop which have the ultrasonic cleaning machine. They said that ultrasonic cleaning may harm all the rubber parts so I ordered butterfly seals in case which I plan to change after the cleaning. Also I try take every o-ring away before cleaning. Anyway, do you agree that ultrasonic cleaning is harmful for the rubber parts? How about the floats?

I remember having trouble taking one part apart from the carburetor, I don´t know what is it called but it has a ball and spring inside and giving that extra shot of fuel. The picture is from the old thread and was originally posted by Windjammer, I just add the arrow to show the part which I am talking about.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Rikugun on May 13, 2016, 10:13:49 AM
QuoteAnyway, do you agree that ultrasonic cleaning is harmful for the rubber parts? How about the floats?

That's a good question. I hadn't considered if rubber is sensitive to cavitational erosion. The shop may be referring to the chemical cleaning fluid used rather than the effects of ultrasonic cleaning itself. Since you are removing all the rubber parts and plan on replacing the shaft seals, it shouldn't matter.

Some may disagree, but if you can't get the accelerator pump nozzles removed I wouldn't worry about it. I don't think there is a spring. If you can hear the ball rattle when you shake the carb body, it's free. You have to weigh the possible damage to those parts and the press fit needed to refit. Also, inadvertently bending the nozzle will have a negative effect on it's performance.

Having said that I'd bench test the assembled carbs specifically regarding the nozzles spray pattern. If they perform correctly I don't see the need to risk damage pulling those nozzles out.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: QBS on May 13, 2016, 02:07:53 PM
No need to ultrasonically clean the float.  It might get damaged, not sure.  But, it doesn't needed to cleaned anyway.  The main thing is to clean out all of the tiny air and fuel passages that are primarily found in the carb body.  I'm glad you are ultrasounding your carbs.  It's really the way to go if it's available.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on May 19, 2016, 10:18:15 AM
Today morning took my carburetors to the shop for ultrasonic cleaning. They did it but said that if You want them to work proberly we need to finish cleaning with mechanically by hand. Well I want them to be clean so they continue to clean them. I also decided to let them to change those butterfly seals which came yeasterday by mail from the States. Looking forward how the bike is behaving with clean carburetors!
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on May 22, 2016, 01:28:56 AM
Well, I have carburetors cleaned. Few problems, I noticed that other emulsion tube is missing, maybe it is somewhere in the shop. Other thing, I tried to take the butterfly valve screws open but they are very soft material. So now they are partly loose but the screws are in very bad shape.

Anyone know where to purchase new screws for the butterfly valves? The shop is closed for the weekend so I have to ask them to find my emulsion tube. If the worst case happens and they can't find it either where I can find the replacement?
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Walt_M. on May 22, 2016, 08:39:07 AM
The Mikuni site does list the screws so they should be available. Not sure about the emulsion tube, maybe a member has one to spare.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on May 22, 2016, 03:37:27 PM
I got my butterfly screws from Mikesxs (https://www.mikesxs.net/parts/yamaha-xs650-screws-throttle-shaft-pk-4-oem-256-14922-01-00).  They sell seals also, but they are a standard metric seal available from seal supplies shops.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on May 23, 2016, 02:25:32 AM
Good news, they found my emulsion tube from the shop where they cleaned the carbs. Good news is also that the butterfly screws are now detached. Bad news is that they are in the shape that can´t be put back and I have to buy new ones. POD, is there 4 pieces of screws in the Mikesxs package, I am not sure about the marking "pk/4". Just to be sure to order right amount.

Edit:
Quite high shipping price with the Mikesxs, 48$ for Finland. I have to find another source...I think the right screws are M3x8 DIN966 A2.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on May 23, 2016, 10:14:25 AM
The ones I bought came in a package of 4 screws. 

Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on May 23, 2016, 10:18:52 AM
Oh, and that shipping is outrageous.
I'd send an email to
customerservice@mikesxs.net

and ask if they will send it in an envelope rather than it's own shipping container


[edit]
I just checked prices to NZ, because I'm sure I didn't pay anywhere near that.
Priority Mail International® $50.81
First-Class Package International Service™ 14.48


Even $14.48 is a rip, but are you sure you noticed all the options? or perhaps 1st class doesn't go to Finland.
Anyway - ask them about an envelope


If that doesn't work I'll send you my spare set for $17.50 and the price of an envelope to Finland


Trouble is those screws were impossible to find over here

Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on May 24, 2016, 08:33:48 AM
Thanks POD for the answer. I did found another source, in fact I visited XS forum and there was topic conserning this which said that the right type is M3x8 DIN 966 A2. So I located those type of bolts from Germany via Ebay, only problem is that soon I have 50pcs of those  ;D Well, the cost was 3,49 euros and delivery 7 euros to Finland. So total sum is 10 euros which is about the same in USD. That is a lot for 4pcs tiny screws...I have noticed that owning a Vision is not cheap  ;)

Limited offer: If anyone need these screws I can send those just with the cost of the delivery, subject to availability and only for the forum members.  :o
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on June 05, 2016, 01:55:46 PM
Finally butterfly valve seals replaced and carburetors ultrasonic washed. Got it started but mixture is not correct so there is no idle at all. Maybe tomorrow little test drive and after that I try to get mixture right. But the response for the throttle is way better than before! I think I had also wrong jets, I replaced them according to the Haynes manual.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Walt_M. on June 05, 2016, 03:19:04 PM
No idle is usually caused by clogged pilots but you have been through them pretty thoroughly.  Have you tried syncing the carbs?
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on June 05, 2016, 03:58:51 PM
I did not have time to adjust the mixture today. I just got it back together and tried to start just to be sure that it starts. So I am not worried yet :) Carbs were synced before the last rebuild. Now having the following jets:

Front:
Main jet 122,5
Pilot air jet 130
Float height 36mm

Rear:
Main jet 127
Pilot air jet 130
Float height 36mm

Noticed that in the last rebuild I must have put the wrong pilot air jets. Because they were 120. Also did have the same main jets on both carbs, 127. I think the bike did run quite alright, just the little hesitation and maybe lack of power. Well the test drive tomorrow will tell more how things are with the new setup. The old butterfly seals were quite hard, it was time to change them.


Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Walt_M. on June 05, 2016, 05:59:40 PM
I think you will find that you will have to synch the carbs as a last step every time you touch them. This includes any time you adjust valve clearance.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on June 05, 2016, 06:22:42 PM
Quote from: b_racuda on June 05, 2016, 03:58:51 PM
I did not have time to adjust the mixture today. I just got it back together and tried to start just to be sure that it starts. So I am not worried yet :) Carbs were synced before the last rebuild. Now having the following jets:

Front:
Main jet 122,5
Pilot air jet 130
Float height 36mm

Rear:
Main jet 127
Pilot air jet 130
Float height 36mm

Noticed that in the last rebuild I must have put the wrong pilot air jets. Because they were 120. Also did have the same main jets on both carbs, 127. I think the bike did run quite alright, just the little hesitation and maybe lack of power. Well the test drive tomorrow will tell more how things are with the new setup. The old butterfly seals were quite hard, it was time to change them.
You probably have the evil EPA version of Haynes.
Euro spec is 120/120 pilot air jet (Yamaha manual on my signature link) That's a much better choice because it causes more pollution :-)
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on June 05, 2016, 11:33:23 PM
Quote from: ProphetOfDoom on June 05, 2016, 06:22:42 PM
Quote from: b_racuda on June 05, 2016, 03:58:51 PM
I did not have time to adjust the mixture today. I just got it back together and tried to start just to be sure that it starts. So I am not worried yet :) Carbs were synced before the last rebuild. Now having the following jets:

Front:
Main jet 122,5
Pilot air jet 130
Float height 36mm

Rear:
Main jet 127
Pilot air jet 130
Float height 36mm

Noticed that in the last rebuild I must have put the wrong pilot air jets. Because they were 120. Also did have the same main jets on both carbs, 127. I think the bike did run quite alright, just the little hesitation and maybe lack of power. Well the test drive tomorrow will tell more how things are with the new setup. The old butterfly seals were quite hard, it was time to change them.
You probably have the evil EPA version of Haynes.
Euro spec is 120/120 pilot air jet (Yamaha manual on my signature link) That's a much better choice because it causes more pollution :-)

Oh crap, that evil EPA, thanks POD. I shall change pilot air jets to 120 today before trying to set the mixtures :)
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Walt_M. on June 06, 2016, 05:57:48 AM
Since all humans exhale carbon dioxide, I think everyone who believes in human caused climate change should hold their breath at least four hours every day. That would solve the problem.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on June 06, 2016, 01:10:12 PM
Changed the pilot air jets and there is a idle. But while I was setting the mixtures the cooling liquid was coming from the overflow tube from the reservoir. Tried to loosen the air breather bolt and tested again. But the result was the same. Is the thermostat broken or what may be the cause?

EDIT:
Just searched the what may be the cause. So the cheaper and the easier one is bad radiator cap which is not holding the pressure. The second and more expensive one is blown head gasket. The problem occurred after the carburetor cleaning. This may have nothing to do with it. The water starts to come out when temperature is 104 celcius and before the fan kicks in.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on June 06, 2016, 03:43:51 PM
Some expansion is normal.  Did you overfill the overflow bottle?

Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: QBS on June 06, 2016, 06:00:19 PM
What is the temp gauge showing?  How close to the Red Zone?
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Rikugun on June 06, 2016, 06:12:36 PM
What QBS asked and where are you measuring coolant temperature? I would think the fan would have come on prior to 104 C. Have you checked the operation of the fan to make sure it works? I don't think you've overheated it yet but if you do, you then might have to consider blown head gaskets.

My guess is what POD suggested that being the expansion tank was overfilled prior to your test run. As a side note, whenever running the bike long enough to make carb adjustments it's a nice thing to do to put a box fan (or the like) in front of the radiator to get some air movement across it.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on June 06, 2016, 11:51:35 PM
Thanks for the replys. Here is more information about this. So I can't recall that I have overfilled the overflow bottle. Actually I was driving few times to work before the carburetor cleaning. Then the the bike was normal with the temperature, the temperature was around 75-80 degrees when driving. Maybe I did refill the overflow bottle when I took the plastics off, I really can't remember.

I have Koso aftermarket temperature gauge installed. It is digital and the measuring point is the same as with the stock meter. The measuring head was perfect fit with the stock location.

The bike did not idle that long when I was setting up the mixtures, max 10 minutes. Also the ambient temperature was only 12 degrees of celcius (yeah, summertime in Finland).  I turned the bike off when I saw that the overflow bottle was kind of boiling. The temperature gauge was showing 104 degrees of celcius. The second time I started the bike and it was the same but then the fan kicked in. I remember that the thermostat opens when the temperature is 85 degrees of celcius and is totally open at 95 degrees of celcius. I had feeling that the liquid was not circulating properly, I can't say why. Maybe because the temperature was raising also when hitting over 85 degrees.

But there is numeral stories about the bikes having the same symptons with overflow bottle and the cause is head gasket failure. I have to check the thermostat first and try again.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: fret not on June 07, 2016, 02:40:33 AM
Important to check in the engine oil for any evidence of coolant.  It may cause the oil to have a cloudy or milky appearance.  If you find any coolant in the oil do not operate the motor until the problem is repaired or you run the distinct risk of damaging the main bearings and rod bearings.  These are 'plain' bearings and depend on a film of oil between the bearings and the crankshaft journals.  Coolant in the oil will surely lead to a failed crankshaft.

Also check the coolant for any evidence of oil.  Oil in the coolant is messy and still requires repair.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Rikugun on June 07, 2016, 09:57:36 AM
Good idea to check the oil for coolant contamination.

I'd think if the head gasket were compromised in the way you suspect there would be copious clouds of white smoke emanating from the exhaust. Have you adjusted the expansion tank level where it belongs when cool then run the engine through a heating cycle to see what happens?
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on June 07, 2016, 12:45:23 PM
Little update. There is no sign of oil in coolant. Also the oil seems to be normal black. But I noticed that the little hole in the front of the water pump is wet, not coolant but oil! I think that hole is to indicate the mechanical seal condition, when the coolant is running from the hole the mechanical seal is broken, correct? But if its leaking oil...is that normal?

Well, I purchased a new thermostat, it is for the Toyota Corolla 1985 1.3 liter. I read somewhere in this forum that it should fit for Vision. Now I need also the mechanical seal for the water pump.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: fret not on June 08, 2016, 01:07:12 AM
" . . .oil seems to be normal black." 

Should not be black, the oil should be more clear.  Black oil is heavily contaminated and may indicate poorly burned fuel (soot) leaking by the piston rings.

There is also a seal that should be replaced on the inside of the engine cover near the water pump.  It is held in place with a snap ring (circlip) and it holds the oil pressure for the crankshaft.  If the seal goes bad there will be low oil pressure, and this is very bad for the bearings on the crankshaft (both rods and mains).
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on June 08, 2016, 05:40:14 AM
the mech seal perhaps isn't the only way oil can get into the coolant.

I did the mechanical seal on mine a couple of weeks ago.  There is a genuine Yamaha part 90890-04078  to drift in the mechanical seal.  Without it you will really struggle I think.  Sockets are too fat walled to use as a drift, and the seal walls buckle really easily.

I ended up turning one on the lathe.  I didn't have a nice bit of steel stock so used delrin, then when that broke, aluminium.  It worked - just, but the thin walls buckled as I hammered and destroyed it, so I can't even lend it to you.

Even with a tool it's a bit of a pig.  Good luck


Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on June 08, 2016, 11:20:41 AM
I looked up the parts fiche and ended up ordering new mechanical seal http://www.ebay.com/itm/KR-Wasserpumpe-Dichtung-YAMAHA-XZ-550-S-11U-82-84-NEU-Waterpump-Seal-/151057828421

But I am strugling to find that oil seal 93101-10090, the nearest one is in United States and I don't want to wait 2-3 weeks it to arrive to Finland and spend 20-40$ on post. I was thinking if the Suzuki oil seal is the same, I mean Suzuki part number 09283-10004-000. Anyone know if that is the same what Yamaha uses?

Also thinking to put a new bearing, that is sold in the local shop and it cost under 10 euros (6001-RS).

POD, ok, so you are saying that I will need time, patience and a lot of beer to get the mechanical seal changed. How it is compared to starter clutch repair?
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on June 10, 2016, 09:16:16 AM
The starter clutch can be done without specialist tools. Mech seal not so much. It's easy enough if you have a thin walled drift the right size possibly some copper pipe would do it. I don't recall the size but perhaps around 20mm.

The seal you need is  a standard metric seal. I cot mine from a seal shop for about $5 just took the old one it and they measured off it no problem.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on June 13, 2016, 01:59:52 AM
Ok, then I take the whole side off and hand it to local motorshop to do the changing work.

Funny that when I asked the oil seal from local dealer they said that it is odd size and they don't have it. The same thing has happen with the wheel bearings and their seals. Yesterday I went to http://yambits.co.uk/ and they have the oil seal and the mechanical seal. The bearing is common size and that is sold in many places.

Hopefully this will solve the problem with my Vision. I have had thoughs about the thermostat earlier, but I decided to let it be as long as it has no problems. Now the thermostat is easy to change when I have to take oil and coolant out anyway.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Rikugun on June 13, 2016, 08:26:26 AM
QuoteFunny that when I asked the oil seal from local dealer they said that it is odd size and they don't have it.

Oh, not funny at all.  :(  Dealers tend to have parts for current models rather than those from 3+ decades ago. Even then they don't stock much anymore. Rather than tie up capitol in a large inventory, it's better to order things as the need arises. If there is a minimum order quantity for a particular part, you may end up paying for the entire quantity although receive only one part. This of course they may likely not tell you.

Since the interwebs came along I've found little reason to step foot in a dealer other than to admire the new models.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on June 13, 2016, 07:21:10 PM
It's not an odd size.  You need to go to a seal supply that works with in Metric sizes.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on June 14, 2016, 02:41:01 PM
Actually here is the place where I asked the seal http://www.tiivistekeskus.fi/en/company/en-tiivistekeskus/
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on June 14, 2016, 03:36:47 PM
Oh, don't know then.  My place had it on the shelf by the hundred.  Don't remember the sizing though.  Anyway, you have one coming from Yambits so you are OK.



Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on June 19, 2016, 11:32:38 AM
Opened today this right side engine cover, I think it was the first time for this engine. The water pump impeller is not turning easily, it feels like the bearing is not ok or the gasket is not soft anymore. Well tomorrow I hand it to local shop and they change the mechanical seal, oil seal and the bearing. I change the thermostat at the same time.

When I drained the oil it looked ok. Also the coolant was normal looking. Changed the oil filter at the same time. Hopefully this water pump repair will solve the problem I am having.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Walt_M. on June 19, 2016, 12:45:35 PM
While you have the cover off, how does the clutch look? Thinking about wear on the fingers on the basket in particular.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on June 19, 2016, 01:23:51 PM
I was thinking to leave clutch untouched because it worked fine  :o

Also want to see if the bike starts to work before putting anymore money on it  :-\
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: QBS on June 19, 2016, 05:56:44 PM
A good point Walt.  I replaced my factory clutch at 72k miles.  The clutch basket fingers showed significant wear.  Also, the basket could be made to move in a wobbly fashion on what I'm thinking would be some kind of shaft. Anybody got any thoughts on that?  Seems like I heard something back in dark ages that Brit twins had a similar manifestation.  I put Barrnet clutch  plates in, and replaced 3 drive plates.  16k miles later, it still feels like new factory.  But the wobbling and worn basket fingers are worrying.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on June 22, 2016, 04:53:18 AM
I just got a tip how to get my aftermarket tachometer working. In the manual it says that it should be connected to positive wire of the ignition coil but after I connected the tachometer as said it did not work. Now I heard that with similar tachometer and old Honda CB owner had similar problems, the solution was to connect it straight to pick up coils wire. Have to try that also, only problem is that which wire should I choose...
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Walt_M. on June 22, 2016, 05:14:47 AM
You may just want to connect your tach to the other side of the coil. The TCI grounds that side which is what generates the spark.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: fret not on June 23, 2016, 02:48:17 AM
" . . .  the basket could be made to move in a wobbly fashion"

Two things I think of here, there are some dampers between the big primary gear and the basket that allow some movement between the two parts, and the gear and basket rides on a bearing (bushing?) on the main shaft of the transmission.  It could be the bearing/bushing is worn.  Any misalignment of the gear teeth with the primary gear on the crank shaft will cause metallic particles in the oil, or worse.  Maybe your clutch needs some TLC.

I looked at a parts fiche and there is no bearing or bushing listed or pictured, so it must be part of the big primary gear.  There has to be something to act as that bearing whenever you pull the clutch lever in.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on June 29, 2016, 03:21:10 PM
Ok, I received information today that my mechanical seal, bearing and oil seal are now changed. They told me that oil seal was in very poor shape. But I have problems with the thermostat cover, it sits so tight that I don't know how to get it off. How it is designed to be changes? Just to pull forward?
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on July 01, 2016, 12:41:33 AM
After soaking the thermostat cover with WD40, trying with heat etc. it still sits there. The only thing I was able accomplish was to brake it. Well yesterday I was forced to order a new thermostat cover from Ebay, hopefully it is in better shape and allows me to change the thermostat.

The shop said that my oil seal was in terrible condition, also the mechanical seal was in poor shape. There was also corrosion but after cleaning it seems to be in good working condition. I assume that some of the previous owners had used plain water or the bike has sat a long time because the parts were such a bad condition.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Rikugun on July 01, 2016, 06:56:14 AM
I don't recall the cover requires any special treatment to be removed. Since you found corrosion elsewhere in the system I'd guess the same thing is at play with the cover. Sorry to hear it's till fighting you. The bike doesn't seem to appreciate you are trying to help it...   :)
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on July 12, 2016, 02:03:04 PM
Got new thermostat cover and it is in good shape! It opened easily but new problem occurred. The thermostat which I bought did not fit or it is too short. It was for Toyota Corolla 1.3. There is no Yamaha NOS thermostat available in Finland so anyone know for sure what thermostat is a good replacement and can be found easily?
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Rikugun on July 13, 2016, 08:41:18 AM
I have no experience with any of these. I doubt these will look identical to the OEM but that does not necessarily mean they won't work.

Forum member vl5150 used a Nissan(?) thermostat, W0133-1634599. Note this is a 170 degree unit compared to the stock 180(?).

Lucky and/or Tiger advocated Slant 13758
https://www.amazon.com/Stant-13758-Thermostat-Degrees-Fahrenheit/dp/B000C7YQP6/185-5121894-5204161?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0 (https://www.amazon.com/Stant-13758-Thermostat-Degrees-Fahrenheit/dp/B000C7YQP6/185-5121894-5204161?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0)
Another member claimed it was not the "dead ringer" it was purported to be. He didn't say whether it just looked different or  would not fit. There are dimensions given on the linked page that may help verify compatibility.

EDIT: This isn't exactly on topic but I found where a member with an "82 European model" replaced his right hand engine cover with one from an '83 or '84 European model. His thermostat cover would not fit on the later model engine cover. He didn't elaborate but depending on the difference, it could affect fitment of some of these non OEM thermostats.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on July 13, 2016, 03:57:10 PM
Thanks for your help, the Toyota Corolla 1.3 litre engine fits fine, just forgot the rubber gasket  :-[ The Toyota thermostat has the opening temperature 82 degrees of celcius (same as original). The water pump cover which I purchased from Ebay did not fit, one bolt is in the different place. But I hammered my original and got the thermostat out. Well the thermostat cover is also little diffferent, but little bit use of Dremel and the problem solved. Got everything back together, filled coolant and oil. And it started and no leaks. I let it run until the fan started, no boiling in the reservoir.  8)

Tomorrow a little test run and then I have to get my mixtures right. Now the bike idles but is bogging when turning the gas fast. With more revs it behaves as normal. So adjustment is needed.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on July 17, 2016, 11:57:56 PM
After trying To get mixtures right I admitted that something is still wrong with the carburetors. Well took them out and cleaned ones again and noticed that needle valves o-rings are not in the Best condition and also syncronisation is not ok. So my advice is that when you change the butterfly Valve seals please check the syncronization after that. Well because it was late I put everything back together, also the old old o-rings, and tried to start. It started well but the pipe between the float bowls is leaking. So I have To change that pipe and clamps and also the needle Valve o-rings. But now I feel that after changing those it may start to work again! At least the water pump and thermostat seems to work and were not leaking!
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Rikugun on July 18, 2016, 08:58:06 AM
Making mistakes when tired is oh so easy but it sounds like you are making progress now. Keep after it!
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on July 18, 2016, 11:16:39 PM
Got everything back together and  did a test drive. Bike works ok but not as good as it should be. Feels that is missing some power. It is hard to say why but I think I am not able to get carburetors any better by myself. They are now clean and should not have any vacuum leaks. But at least it is working again and not leaking.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on July 19, 2016, 03:30:52 AM
Today morning rode to work. Now I am having thoughts that my pick up coil is fouling. The bike runs good when cold, when the engine warms up and you are riding and you push the clutch the engine may stall. And if you let it idle when warm the tach jumps. This tach jumping never happens when the bike is cold. When starting cold it sounds like it starts with one cylinder and then after a while the other comes along. The TCI is already changed to Ignitech version. The pick up coils and coils are original. My aftermarket tach is connected to white wire coming from the rear pick up coil to the TCI, so I assume that rear pick up coil is fouling.

Well, is there after market pick up coils available? Or is the only possibility to get used original?

This bike is tough to own, at least if you want to ride it  :(
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: fret not on July 19, 2016, 03:51:30 AM
The problem may be the ignition coil for the cylinder that loses spark.  As the coils are used they become warm, and the copper wire winding expands a bit.  If there is a break in the winding (coil) it can open when it becomes warm, and close when it cools.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on July 19, 2016, 05:35:47 AM
It can be also the ignition coil. But as the aftermarket tach is only connected to the white wire and not in the original tach wire I assume that it knows nothing about the ignition coil. It just reads what happens with the white pick up coil wire. And the tach is jumping when the engine is hot that is why I see that the problems lies in the pick up coil.

If it is pick up coil, will the failure lead also to TCI failure?
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Walt_M. on July 19, 2016, 06:11:36 AM
That is so frustrating. Did your original TCI fail or did you change it to see if it was better? Try swapping back to original to see if it improves. If not, you might want to do a carb synch.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on July 19, 2016, 08:29:48 AM
The original TCI failed, at least I thought so. First there was something odd going with the original tacho, it went suddenly to zero rpms and then jumped around. First I assumed that tacho is broken until I had second sympton, the bike refused to iddle more than 2000 rpms for about 20-30 seconds but after that was normal again. Then I looked at this guide http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/IgnitionFAQ.html#a7p1 and found out that it is TCI problem.

Now I am thinking that it may be also the pick up coil problem. But had a thought that where is pick up coil grounded, is it there in the one engine bolt on the same side as the stator is located? I have to check the grounding first before ordering pick up coils from Ebay.

The carb synch is on the list also but first I have to get the ignition working. When I get ignition sorted out I take my bike to some professional to work out the carburetors.

Again, if I have to purchase new pick up coils it takes two weeks to arrive and one day to install. Waiting the parts is very frustrating. And when you got one problem fixed you bump in to another.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: jefferson on July 19, 2016, 10:37:04 AM
Do the simple things first. Put a new set of plugs in and check the resistance on your plug caps. A friend of mine had an issue with his Vision that we hashed things over for quite awhile. His was on one cyl. a lot of the time and was running so badly that he even switched back to the original carbs from the vmax setup. He had already cut the wire for the rev limiter and so on. He was thinking pickup coils and tci also. He replaced the plug in the one cyl and everything is fine now. I told him that it may have been affecting things with the vmax setup and the running issues he had with it.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on July 19, 2016, 11:38:02 AM
I have tried to do the simple things  :-\ I doubt that the problem lies at the plug caps, they are quite new NGK caps, only 2000km with them. Also spark plugs are iridium. All the plug wires are also changed. Rev limiter is also out of the game already and new TCI is in place. The grounding is also ok, after the powder coating the frame I did sand the place to bare metal and coated it with dielectric grease.

I did order a used pick up coil. Also thinking of ordering the ignition coils also, found these on the, are they good or rubbish? Ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-XZ-550-82-83-Motorcycle-Motorbike-Ignition-Coil-OEM-Standard-/391450549110?hash=item5b24455b76:g:vvYAAOSwhRxXLPbn&vxp=mtr
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: QBS on July 19, 2016, 02:03:05 PM
Visions may be known for having many gremlins, but pick up coil failure is way down the list.  I've never heard of failure regarding that part.  Since you have replaced the plugs, plug caps, and plug wires, I would be inclined to suspect that the problem is somehow related to your spark coils.  The stock tach gets it's signal from one of the spark coils.  I don't remember the exact set up.  Your tach jumping around might be an important clue.  Try running the bike with the tach feed wire disconnected and see what changes, if any, occur.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on July 19, 2016, 03:22:01 PM
I am not suprized of anything with my Vision anymore. The tach problems only accur when the engine is hot, not when it is cold. Also the bike does not idle when hot or it may idle a while but then revs drop and it stalls. I think I order also the ignition coils, just to be sure. One thing is sure, I just missed another driving season. I envy the Honda owners, they just change the oils and push the button on the next summer and everything works, Vision owners clean their carburetors and try to figure out the electrical problems  :o
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: jefferson on July 19, 2016, 04:40:19 PM
Not idling when hot and stalling sounds like a rich condition. Ignition maybe, but I think it would be missing. Something to check would be the voltage on the ground at the tci unit. With the engine running see what voltage is there at idle and revving to like 3 or 4 thousand rpm. If there is voltage there it could be beneficial to tap into the ground and run a wire all the way to the battery negative terminal. Wouldn't hurt to see how much voltage is on all the grounding points.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on July 20, 2016, 06:28:41 AM
Jefferson, did I understood it right, because the ignition coils, TCI and the pick up coils all share the same ground the bad grounding can affect all of these, nevertheless which one has the problem? I can measure the grounding points today or tomorrow and also the ignition coil resistances. I did order the new aftermarket ignition coils and cheap second hand pick up coil. I am planning to change the ignition coils first, because it is much easier. See what happens after that, is the problem still there. Today I did put my carbs leaner about 1/6 turn, there was a massive effect on the accelaration! Still there is something odd with the electrics. But the bike runs so I ride until the spare parts arrive.

There is a bog or at least problem with quick response to turning gas fast (under 4000rpms). So for cure to that I have planned to change the accelator pump rod spring. I looked how it behaves and I think the response is quite slow as the gas is turned. The old spring is quite slack and I don't know if it is original. So if I install a bit stiffer spring maybe the response is better. Also I don't have the modified flapper in the airbox, my bike was originally German low power version and PO has changed the carbs so I don't know which model they were originally used. But if I place a 10 gram weight (weight of two nickels) to the flapper door, maybe it helps with the response also?

One note also for the oil. I did use cheaper Teboil Superbike fully synthetic oil 15W-50 on my Vision previously. When I did visit the store it was sold out so I chose a little more expensive Shell Advance Ultra 4-T 15W-50. I never expected such a different. The clutch is better, the gears are better and the engine sounds quieter. There is nothing measurements it is just feeling  ;D Anyway, I am planning to use this Shell oil in the future also.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Walt_M. on July 20, 2016, 08:13:48 AM
Did you put in a new accelerator pump diaphragm? The rod and spring operation is counterintuitive.  Backing off the spring increases the pump stroke and puts in more fuel. If the diaphragm is bad, that could be part of the problem.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: jefferson on July 20, 2016, 10:22:06 AM
In effect, everything on the bike shares grounding points and most of them must do so through the old harness which most likely has built up resistance over those years. What I am talking about is bypassing the harness and going directly to the battery so the ignition can do it's best work.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on July 20, 2016, 01:02:52 PM
Walt, actually I did put a new diaphgram, despite the old one was only 1 year old.

Drove today about 150 kilometers, the bike starts well, rides well above 4000rpms but the problem starts when you are at the lower rpms. The bike wont idle when hot (about 80 degrees of celcius or More). Also it nearly stalls and the tach needle is jumping. I have To check the groundings and put a wire from bottom of the ignition coil directly to battery minus terminal.

Good news, everything with the water pump, thermostat and expansion bottle seems to work fine. So there is some progress!
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Walt_M. on July 20, 2016, 01:44:31 PM
Do not put battery negative to the ignition coil! Look at the resources section, Dave's electrical FAQ I think. The coils get switched Positive on the red/white wire and the other side goes to the TCI and is grounded to charge the coil. If you ground that wire, it probably won't run and may burn up the coil. I think whoever is advising you on this wants to make sure the black wire at the TCI is connected to solid ground.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on July 20, 2016, 03:37:16 PM
The ground which is located under the left ignition coil, not the coil itself. I don't think that grounding does nothing to coil.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Walt_M. on July 20, 2016, 05:41:54 PM
You are correct,  I just misunderstood.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: jefferson on July 20, 2016, 07:42:43 PM
It would be best if you checked the voltage at that ground to see how much there is and then check again afterwards so you know if you helped anything. The ground going to the tci may be more important going by reports on other forums. If there isn't any voltage there then it may not be worth doing.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Rikugun on July 21, 2016, 09:50:12 AM
QuoteIt would be best if you checked the voltage at that ground to see how much there is and then check again afterwards so you know if you helped anything.
I'm not sure I fully understand the concept, could you elaborate a bit? Which meter setting, what probe goes where, expected voltages you'll find, etc.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: jefferson on July 21, 2016, 10:32:27 AM
You would use the dc volts setting and put your probes on the ground point and the battery negative terminal. It would be best to put a good load on the electrical system so get as many lights on as possible and the fan running would be about it. I guess you could honk the horn too. You will see how much voltage is flowing through the meter rather than going through it's normal path as through the meter is the least resistive path. The voltages should be checked at idle and with the engine revving. Same with the ground on the tci unit. I use a paper clip to get into the connector as the probes don't always get in there too well.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on July 22, 2016, 06:00:46 AM
Thanks for the advices Jefferson. Been busy lately but maybe in the weekend I have possibility to start measuring the voltages and ohms.

Also purchased a new spacer for the front wheel axel. My original was quite worn out when I assembled but I think the steering is not perfect now. I assume that helps to get alligment right.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on July 29, 2016, 03:41:10 PM
Finally got time to do some measurements. Actually I changed the the ignition coils to new ones before measuring the old ones. So after changing those I measured the ohms from the originals:

Rear ignition coil:
Primary winding 3,2 ohms
Secondary winding 8,93 ohms

Front ignition coil:
Primary winding 3,1 ohms
Secondary winding 8,60 ohms

According to http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/IgnitionFaq.pdf (http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/IgnitionFaq.pdf) the values should be:
Primary winding 2,75 ohms
Secondary winding 7,9 ohms

I also measured the pickup coils, my current ones have the values:
145 ohms and 140 ohms, which is not ok.

According to http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/IgnitionFaq.pdf (http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/IgnitionFaq.pdf) these should be:
Sensor Pickup should read: 110 ohms (99-121 ohms is acceptable) in both cases

Well I have a spare one and it gave the readings 115 ohms and 121 ohms. So it should be ok.

Nevertheless fired up my Vision with new ignition coils but with old pickups. I noticed that after changing the ignition coils the mixtures were not right so I did adjust them again.  It was better but not quite there, feeled like it is not firing every time and it stalls again when it got hot but before that the idle was smoother. So I think I have to change the pickups also.

Conclusion, maybe there was something wrong with the ignition coils, I know that there was something wrong with my TCI but it seems that there is also something wrong with my pickups as well. I also talked with the few people who has worked with old bikes and they said that often the ignition coils work when they are cold but start to fail when warm. Well, at least I know after changing the pickups that everything with ignition should be in working condition. And if your Vision is acting strange when hot and your carburetors are clean suspect all these TCI, pickups, ignition coils.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Walt_M. on July 29, 2016, 06:31:22 PM
Looks like you have found a problem that is rare, bad pickup coils. First I have heard of but definitely worth checking. Here's hoping you finally get some quality riding time.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Rikugun on July 30, 2016, 11:47:26 AM
I have respect for jetavi8tor and the factory specs he quoted but will still warn about absolute resistance values when it comes to diagnostic work. Often times unless there is an obvious flaw - open, short, wildly low/high ohm value - the best results are achieved with replacement with known good parts. Nuance in ohm readings can be misleading as scale used, type & quality of meter and experience of the user can impact readings. Regarding the secondary winding test, did you install new spark plug caps or happen to measure their resistance? Were the replacement coils new or used and if used, known to be good or claimed to be good? Did you reuse the spark plug leads or did the new coils come with them installed?

Did you happen to record new coil resistance to compare to the old ones? Since carb adjustment was needed one might assume there was an impact changing them out but without knowing those values, there is some useful info missing.  If the resistance of old and new coils were similar (despite being outside published values) and there was a perceived change in running, I'd question if the coils made the difference or an unrelated and intermittent problem was the culprit. Maybe pickup coils? Or, you have simultaneous multiple electrical component failure i.e. coils and pickups for instance. Statistically less likely but possible.

One more thing on pickup coils. I only have personal experience with 2 or 3 instances of this type of failure and none were with a Vision. Having said that, how the problem presented was heat related in that on cold start there was no problem but as things warmed the affected cylinders dropped out. It was fairly sudden and dramatic when it happened and wouldn't recover until it cooled. In one case where the coils lived under a dry cover, I blew compressed air on the coils and the affected cylinders came back on line temporarily. That's not to say this is the only way the problem can present but in the few examples I came across it did. Yours (if bad) could be at the point where even when cold they won't function properly.

I don't envy you as these kinds of problems can tax one's patience. Continued good luck and hang in there.  :)

Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on July 30, 2016, 01:51:56 PM
The ignition coils are new, actually the primary winding resistance is higher than stock ones, it is 3,5ohms. I think it is nothing dramatic, I understood that if the resistance is low it is bad for TCI. I have quite new NGK spark plug caps with 5kohms resistance and also quite new wires, they are only 2 years old. I did purchase them when I got my Vision. Also the spark plugs are NGK Iridium plugs. So now there is nothing original but the pickups. TCI is from Ignitech, ignition coils are aftermarket ones etc.

I don't know for sure if they were broken, the resistance were not in the given values so they might be broken. I don't know how to better analyze those with my knowledge. And also when I feel that there is something wrong with ignition and for sure the carburetors were working earlier fine so I have to change all the parts relating to ignition. It is possible, that only pickups were broken in the first place. But as it is said, it is very rare that pickups fail. So I started with the most common one the TCI. But after changing parts there is every time feeling that it is going on the right direction, lets see what happens after changing the picups.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: fret not on July 31, 2016, 01:12:32 AM
I hope this makes everything work well.  I am a supporter of the Ignitech system, and may be ordering one before long.  I think the Ignitech ignition is more robust than the stock unit, and will serve you well.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on August 05, 2016, 03:40:27 PM
Finally got inspiration to start changing the pickup coils. Noticed that I don't have the gasget, of course the old is useless after opening the stator side. Also the Philips heads were very tight and one was really pain in the a**. Finally got it loose. Well, as usual I have to wait the gasket from Germany for one week. I have to learn to first order all the gasgets before starting  ;D
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: QBS on August 05, 2016, 05:56:47 PM
IMHO an impact screwdriver is the only way to loosen and install Phillips head screws.  After you get your new engine cover gasket, trace out a copy of it on a sheet of thin cardboard.  Cut the tracing out and punch out the necessary screw and dowel holes.  Save your OEM gasket for future tracings as necessary.

When the time comes to install the engine side cover, put a thin coating of grease on the engine gasket contact and side cover contact surfaces.  Stick your newly made gasket copy to the engine and install the side cover over the gasket.  This gasket does not control a pressurized environment.  It only controls gravity fed leaks.  Coating the engine and side cover interface surfaces with grease keeps the gasket from sticking to either surface and being destroyed during the next disassembly.  A gasket installed this way (even your traced copy) can be successfully reused many times.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: jefferson on August 05, 2016, 06:46:10 PM
A set of the Vessel jis screwdrivers are a godsend when it comes to phillips head screws. They fit the heads so tight an impact may not even be needed and if it is there is one included in the set. The bits that came with my impact didn't fit the heads very well and would strip them out instead of backing them out. I wish I hadn't waited so long to get a set.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Rikugun on August 06, 2016, 07:41:56 AM
I'm glad you got them out but I'd agree with QBS' findings here regarding the impact driver tool. Even a properly fitting screwdriver can only do so much with hand strength alone on particularly stubborn screws. Years ago as a new mechanic I bought a set from Snap-On and have used it many times with the (more than likely) non-JIS tips included.
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/111513691190-0-1/s-l1000.jpg (http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/111513691190-0-1/s-l1000.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on August 06, 2016, 10:38:53 AM
I bought today new bolts and some gasket paper. I try to get new sealing done by myself and see if those M6 stainless steel bolts are okay to hold pickup coils in place.

I have few times nearly bought impact hammer. Local shop is selling it around 20 euros. I have screwdriver where you can place the tips, that is what I am using most of the times with Vision. I have never tried impact hammer, I think I have to purchase it now after your recommendations.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on August 19, 2016, 02:13:45 AM
The gaskets are still on their way. But I tried to fix my own gasket and use some motor silicone to get my Vision running because today I planned to ride to Imatra to see Imatra International Road Racing Championship. The plan was to ride a very nice route from Lahti to Imatra but the motor was leaking oil so badly I was forced to cancel it. Even tried to fix it twice last night but with the same result.

Nevetheless I went for a short test drive. The bike was totally different bike! There was steady idle, the bog was gone and plenty of power. Still slight hesitation between 3500 to 4000rpm but I think that is solved with adjusting the carbs. Well, I have to say the final problem was in the pickup coils. All the changes I made were step to better but changing the pickup coils finally solved the problem.

According to DPD Parcel tracking the gasket are allready in my home town, so maybe today they are delivered to my door step. So maybe today evening I am able to get the oils to stay inside with the prober gasket. I am so confident now that I allready reserved a time to local motorshop who is adjusting my Visions carbs at the dynometer  :o
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Rikugun on August 19, 2016, 08:12:59 AM
I'm glad to hear the pickup coils did the trick. I don't recall hearing any cases of that on a Vision yet but like any component, they can fail. Hopefully the new gasket will fix the oil leak and you'll be able to enjoy riding your Vision.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: QBS on August 19, 2016, 01:28:02 PM
Beware of silicone sealent getting loose inside your engine.  It could block critical oil passages.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on August 20, 2016, 03:34:54 AM
Yesterday I finally got the gaskets. Today I am planning to put oil in the engine, wash the bike and go for a ride! QBS, I removed all the old silicone sealant and tried also see that nothing is left inside the engine.

Lets see how everything works today. The forecast is promising a good weather here so maybe I can test my GoPro and get some footage how my Vision is running  ;D
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on August 28, 2016, 03:22:52 PM
Little update. Okay, my bike was in the dynometer and they adjusted my carbs. Now the carbs also work fine BUT...the dyno only showed 42HP and 39,5Nm. The expert said that there is something still wrong and something is restricting the power (not enough fuel or air). He said that the dyno curves seems like the bike has limited power. Well, I did ride with it and there is still lack of power. Also after hard accelerating suddenly the bike don't respond to the turning the gas. First I thought that maybe it is the tank cap, the bike is not having air through the cap, The cap is aftermarket and I did now modify it a bit. But it didn't cure the problem. Now I am thinking it may be the fuel pump. How do you think, where the next gremling is?

Why the fuel pump? The YICS is repaired and before dyno I checked it with no leaks. Also carburetors are clean (ultrasonic cleaned + two times after that cleaned with carburetor cleaner). The carburetors are now syncronized and mixtures are set (local expert did those with all the tools needed). The carburetors have been repaired with new parts. The petcock is NOS, only 1500km driven with that. The ignition is totally repaired. All the fuel lines are new. All the vacuum lines are new. I can't figure out anything else anymore...  :-\

Another thing is, should I put Keyster kit to my fuel pump or get a electric one instead?
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: jefferson on August 28, 2016, 05:22:35 PM
Might be worth checking your exhaust for a dead rodent or some such plugging things up. Stranger things have happened.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Walt_M. on August 29, 2016, 06:03:42 AM
I would put an electric fuel pump on it before I would rebuild the standard pump. I just got another R1 pump on ebay for $20 US delivered. I am going to put it on my Rhino.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Rikugun on August 29, 2016, 09:39:09 AM
I feel like there may be a few unknowns at play and I wouldn't focus on the pump alone - especially if no effort has been made to determine what flow rate is nominal for it and if it achieves that. I looked in the factory manual and didn't see a test for flow rate. Maybe someone with a Haynes manual could check? Alternatively, you could fill the tank and run the petcock on prime directly to the carbs thus eliminating the pump. If no dramatic HP increase is noted, it wasn't the fault of the pump. They are simple and robust and generally speaking haven't been a huge problem of the Vision. Of course it's rare for the pick-up coils to fail too and you've experienced that so who knows....  :D

I think your bike started life as a "low power" German model? I recall you swapped the cams and carbs for "standard" HP versions. Are there any other differences like lower compression pistons or smaller valves? Another thing that could dramatically affect HP is timing advance. Is there any way to verify you are getting at least the advance the OEM unit offered? I'm working on the assumption you have an aftermarket TCI.

Finally, what HP would you expect to see? Realistically, what might one expect from a Vision at the rear wheel? It may help to know just how far off the mark the bike is - 5%? 15%? More?

Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on August 29, 2016, 03:11:53 PM
Actually the German low power version has different carbs, different intake manifolds and different cams. All these are changed to full power version. Somehow the site won't give me attach the dyno curve here, it always goes to some error. Anyhow, with words:

Given values for Vision as new:
65 hp (48 kW) @ 9500 rpm
50 Nm (37 ft·lbf) @ 8500 rpm

My Vision currently (with +15% more):
42 hp (48hp) @ 8456 rpm
39 Nm (44,9 Nm)@ 6452 rpm

The dyno curve is rising nicely and steady to 6500 rpm, then it drops and starts have waves. So there is not enough power in the upper end. I have to check all the fuel and vacuum lines ones more. They are all done with new parts.

Just checked electric fuel pumps available at Ebay, I may just order one of those because the price is cheaper than the repairing set for the original pump.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Walt_M. on August 29, 2016, 05:34:57 PM
That does sound a little like fuel starvation a good fuel pump would help solve that. You could actually remove your existing pump, fill it with fuel and let gravity take care of it. If the power is improved you have found the problem, fix the pump, electric or rebuild and you should be ok. You need the pump for the lower fuel levels. I just proved that on mine this morning.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: QBS on August 29, 2016, 07:46:06 PM
Do you have an exhaust gas anylizer available?  If so, look for anomalous results (rich or lean) above 6500.  Is any part of the intact track obstructed?  Are you running a flapper air box?  If so, is the flapper operating correctly?  Remember it is vacuum actuated.  Check to make sure that you are using the correct vacume source.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on August 29, 2016, 10:02:47 PM
Actually at the dyno there was analyzer attached and that shows that mixtures were rather little rich than lean. But the mixtures curve is quite nice for the whole time, nothing dramatic. The dyno guy said that it can be anything, not getting fuel enough, not getting air enough or the exhaust is limiting. He also said that it is not the carburetors, they are now workint really well, the problem lies somewhere else. If I only can that dyno picture attached here...

I have flapper box,  earlier style which does not have the update. I have to check it also that it is still ok.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on August 30, 2016, 03:26:45 PM
I was having similar issues on the Black Bastard from hell.  Turns out the TCI was sparking but not advancing with increasing revs.  A long shot, but you can check that easily with just a timing light.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on September 09, 2016, 05:32:56 AM
Finally the dyno curve, now I got it attached!!
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on September 09, 2016, 12:16:14 PM
Checked also all the connections, still the same problem exist. I will put electric fuel pump during the winter.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Ken Williams on September 09, 2016, 08:41:34 PM
As Walt_M indicated previously, it is easy to temporarily plumb the fuel pump out of the system to see if it is the source of your problem. 
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on October 22, 2016, 11:16:08 AM
Little progress, ordered a electric fuel pump as planned. Looked on Ebay several different pumps but decided to go with some known brand, so I ordered K&N fuel pump 81-0400 http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?prod=81-0400 (http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?prod=81-0400) Hope that will work fine, at least they promise 5 years warranty.

I have now 5 months time to get it installed before the driving seasons starts. I hope this will solve the lack of power issue. I also remembered that the problems with no response when turning the gas started when the fuel tank was half full, they did not appear with full gas tank. So maybe the problem is with the original fuel pump...at least I hope so. Well at the spring time I will go to dyno again with newly installed electric fuel pump and will see what happens  ::)
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: QBS on October 22, 2016, 03:23:50 PM
The half full tank, lose power condition was, for me, indicative of a failed oem fuel pump.  Installation of a fuel pump rebuild kit solved my problem.  Very modest cost and no new plumbing to devise.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on October 22, 2016, 05:10:16 PM
I understand that I spend more bucks to electric pump than buying a repair kit for oem pump. Also at Ebay there was electric pumps under 10€ from China but I wanted better quality so I thought to put more money on it. But I also wanted to upgrade my bike and I think electric pump helps cold starting.

Next step is to have new exhaust system, I want something like 4-2-1, I don't have skills to do it by myself so I have to find someone to manufacture it. This is maybe something for the future, first I want to see my Vision to work one summer with no problems before putting more money on it.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Walt_M. on October 23, 2016, 04:56:39 PM
The fuel pump looks good. As for exhaust, Predator in UK still makes one but they are expensive at 756 euro
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on April 03, 2017, 01:15:54 AM
Well eventually the sun started shining and the snow is melting. So that gave me inspiration to start changing the fuel pump. I read the manual and it says that new electric fuel pump preferred installing position is in 45 degrees angle. So I started to see where to instal it and how. Well with help of piece of cardboard I got a position where the fuel pump is so that it is in 45 degree angle and I can check it easily. I tested and it is not in a way when driving.

I also noticed that there is a minor leak of coolant. One is coming from the rear cylinder bolt, the one which is meant to open when taking all the coolant away. The other one is coming from the thermostat cover. I purchased a new o-ring or should I call it seal to thermostat cover, some new old stock but it seemed better and more elastic than my original one.

Well, after looking that new Harley Davidson Street Rod 750 and it commercial which says "Color-Matched Speed Screen" so I finally took my Visions Speed Screen to painter so that it matches to color of the rest of the bike. Also the tail part where the tail light is located, that is at the moment at painter. So after these the bike has more BMW Oxford Green.

The exhaust is still open, I don´t have money to spend on that at the moment. First I get this Vision running again and buy a new helmet.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on April 28, 2017, 03:59:27 AM
Wish me luck, I am going to try if my Vision starts today and hopefully there are now leaking gas or cooland. Yesterday I drained the coolant and started opening the water pump cover. After I opened the water pump cover I did go through every surface with a fine sandpaper, just to make sure that they are clean and that is not the problem for leaking. Also changed the gasket. Also the fuel pump is now finally installed properly.

If everything seems to working and nothing is leaking then I also change oil and filter and go for a test drive. In Finland the weather is very cold, the April is colder than normal. Even when the sun is shining it is only 6 degrees of Celsius and in the nights it drops under zero. 
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on April 28, 2017, 09:55:13 AM
WOW! 50km test run completed, everything worked and no leaks. The bike performed great, no hesitation when accelerating, when stopping no stalling but nice idle. Only complain is when I stopped to refuel, it took quite a long time to get it started again. But maybe it is just the 7 month old gasoline which is causing this. Also maybe I need new spark plugs. But so far so good.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Walt_M. on April 28, 2017, 05:25:03 PM
Good job on the ride. These bikes do have vapor lock issues at high temperatures but I don't think that is the problem. Does it start easier if you leave it on the center stand? Mine had that problem with the standard carburetors so I always put it on the center stand. I  think it is a float level issue but rather than fight it I just used the center stand.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on May 04, 2017, 08:34:39 AM
I took some pictures of my bike at the moment. The color is BMW Oxford Green, unfortunately with my Photoshop skills I can't get the color shown right in the picture, it was so bright day light when I took the photographs.

Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on May 04, 2017, 10:57:14 AM
The starting issue remains but the otherwise the bike works great. When it starts warm it don't allow to twist the throttle at all and it was in center stand. I don't have a clue what is the problem. Maybe I adjust the idle a little bit higher, now it is around 1000rpm, maybe round 1300rpm is better.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Rikugun on May 04, 2017, 02:17:49 PM
That's a sharp looking bike. I like the color, rim treatment and flyscreen. The two-tone seat is also different.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: b_racuda on June 06, 2017, 07:53:43 AM
Well, one story ends. I got it running, solved that starting issue and rode quite a lot this spring. But I want to go for a long motorcycle trip and maybe ride some gravel roads, the Yamaha Vision is not my choice for that so I listed my bike for sale. Now it is sold and I already purchased a new one, BMW F650GS with that 800cc twin engine.  I did learn a lot from this site and by repairing it. Thank You for help and keep those Visions running.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: Walt_M. on June 06, 2017, 11:35:41 AM
You did a lot on the Vision but I can understand your reasons for the change. Hate to see you go but good luck with the GS.
Title: Re: Restoring Vision, what needs to be done?
Post by: QBS on June 06, 2017, 05:46:43 PM
Your BMW should serve your needs very well.  God bless you and ride defensive to the Max.