Hey guys,
This is my first post on the forum. I recently bought an 82 Vision up in Alaska. It was knocking, and I found this forum and the starter clutch/balancer nut fix that made it sound like I could get the bike running good again pretty easily. I bought it, took it home, and when I took apart the left side crankcase both the clutch bolts and the balancer nut were loose. I got new bolts for the starter clutch and tightened the balancer nut with a crescent wrench as much as I could, but didn't have a socket so I wasn't able to torque it to spec. When I put it back together and started it up, it still sounds like this:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6iquuu8wnvlcnxx/VID_20150624_212917770.mp4?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/172bkbui9x11gpr/VID_20150626_183653979.mp4?dl=0
So I'm not sure what to do going forward. The oil light turns on when the engine is off but once on it turns off. The rattling/knocking gets worse with louder revs and in general the engine just doesn't sound good, but it starts up pretty easily if I give it enough gas. Could the balancer nut still be too loose, or is it likely another problem (e.g. rod knock) that would make repairing this bike for a first time mechanic really difficult?
Hard to tell from a video. Try putting a screw driver handle to your ear with the blade end on the cases to determine better where the noise is coming from. Unless you have a stethoscope, then use that instead. Sounds like big end to me but hopefully not.
Do not run the bike anymore until its' problems have been fixed. The sounds are bad, the worst I've heard. It sounds as if serious damage is underway. Double check your starter clutch reattachment. Look for bits of metal in the oil filter. Report back with your findings.
There was a bunch of metal shavings in the oil filter the last time I changed it (at the time of the starter clutch bolt replacement)... It was gold and it was coating the entire filter. So basically, engine swap or scrap the bike?
Metal shavings = BAD! but maybe not terminal. The fact that the oil light goes out when the engine is running is a GOOD sign that the rod bearings and mains are not totally trashed. At this point you need to thoroughly clean the interior of the motor of all metallic shavings. A magnetic drain plug like comes on the rear hub is a good idea, but seriously, you need to flush the engine before you run it again, and maybe after.
About your knocking noise, there must still be something loose. Did you peen the new bolts for the starter clutch? I think it is worth the effort to remove the stator cover again and inspect the new bolts and anything else you can find.
I didn't peen the starter clutch bolts because I was only planning on riding it for the next month or so. Also when I got finished with all my repairs including the oil filter change, I noticed there was a small, smooth metal cylinder, probably about 2 mm diameter and 12 mm long that had appeared on my floor. Possibly some sort of bearing? But I have no idea where it would go or how it got out of the engine. But you think it's possible that I didn't tighten the nut enough? I didn't have a socket for my torque wrench as I said before, but I thought I got it pretty tight. Could the undertightening still cause all those noises? I don't believe it could be the starter clutch bolts because the noise doesn't go away at higher rpms.
What would flushing the engine involve? I want to be hopeful about getting this bike running again but I also don't want to drop much more money into it if it's unlikely that I can fix it.
Does it look like these? they are out of the starter clutch - and you need all 3 of them to work properly.
Nah I have all my starter clutch parts. It looks a lot like one of the spring caps except it's solid, not hollow. But it's about the same size. Could be from the ratcheting socket wrench I broke trying to get the flywheel off? Other than that I'm stumped as to where it came from.
Does your oil light go out at idle? Or does it take more RPM to get it to go out?
Yeah it goes out right when I turn on the bike. My oil heat gauge doesn't work, does that have any effect on the operation of the light? Do you think I might still be dealing with an under tightened balancer but?
Seems to me that if you got the nut on the balnacer pretty tight it should not ba making noise. However, that nut tightens against the plate and buffer (cushion) in the balancer gear. If that buffer is chewed up or missing you would have a heck of a racket coming from that area, and metal 'shavings'.
Look up a parts fiche on the net and check out the order the parts fit together. http://www.motosport.com/dirtbike/oem-parts/yamaha/1982/xz550/balancer
how did you get on with the screwdriver "stethoscope" trick? this will pinpoint quite well where noise is coming from. oh well...
Personally I would shell out the $10 to get a stethoscope. They are ever so much better than a long screwdriver.
Hmm I'll open it up and take a look at it tonight again. I have a stethoscope around the house somewhere, but based on previous posters advice about not running the bike I'm not sure about how I'm supposed to locate the source of the noise without running it. To make matters more complicated it isn't starting right now anyways so... I'll try to take apart the balancer assembly and make sure everything is in order, considering both the balancer drive nut and the starter clutch bolts were loose maybe it did tear up that buffer (though I didn't notice anything that looked out of the ordinary when I was tightening the bolt). To be fair, maybe I was looking in the wrong place, because based on that diagram the balancer driven assembly could be the problem? I was looking more at the balancer drive assembly because the nut was tight on the driven one.
Thanks so much for all your guys' help so far, sorry for being such a noob.
Check the crankshaft nut while you are in there.
akvision95, This thread may help you...
http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=10678.msg96858#msg96858
Keep up the good work 8)
Tiger.
What happened to OregenVisionary? Seems like a cool guy
I actually used that thread for the repairs I did because I read it and was hoping it would fix my problems. I followed all the instructions except for the torque rating on the 46mm nut because I didn't have a socket to make sure it was tight enough. Anyways the noise my bike was making after those repairs was a lot worse than 'an annoying rattle' so I was hoping there might be some other tips... Though both the starter clutch bolts and the crankshaft bolt were loose like I said, tightening them did nothing to solve the problem.
I just want my motorcycle to work :(
A few things that can cause a noisy engine: 1. loose cam chain adjuster(s), 2. loose valve clearances, 3. loose clutch basket ( missing 'rubber' cushions between the basket and gear), 4. excessively worn engine parts.
I suggest to check the easiest and most obvious things first.
I would be seriously looking for the things that make "gold shavings" on your filter. Rod bearings, cam bearings? Thrust bearings? I don't know what the vision engine has where. How thick is the oil? Is it possible the previous owner put some heavy goop in to try quiet it down before sale which may help show ok oil pressure too?
Could it be the balancing shaft?. I was ready to "button up" my alternator cover when I thought I'd give the internals one last look to see if everything was properly in place. Checked the manual, and saw that there's a "dot" on the balancing shaft gear that had to align with another "dot" on the flywheel gear (?)
Sure enough, I had failed to align the gears!
Check the manual (it's a free download here somewhere), and look for the balancing shaft alignment.
You should tighten that flywheel nut properly. I have a 46mm deep socket that I could lend to you. Probably about $5 to ship to Alaska and another $5 for you to return it. Or you can just order it from Sears. I think it was about $23 with shipping (see attachment) --Steve
Just a quick status update: took apart the bike some more today and when I removed the air filter cover, there wasn't one inside! It's possible the PO ran the bike for like 3-5k miles without the filter in because when he sold it to me he said it was something I should check because he hadn't. This seems like it could have messed up the carbs and the engine both.
Additionally, removed the oil filter again today in preparation for disassembling the right crankcase and found that there were both gold and silver colored metal shavings in it but not as many as last time.
Later tonight I'm planning on removing the right side crank case to see if there's something going on there.
RH engine cover houses the water pump, the primary drive, clutch, and shifting mechanism. In this cover there is a small oil seal that should be replaced as it keeps oil and coolant from getting mixed. PN# 93101-14098-00 It's held in place with a circlip.
Opened up the right side crank case today and didn't see or feel anything that looked obviously wrong. So I'm going to keep digging deeper into the engine, try to figure out what's wrong in there. Planning on dropping the engine out and completely disassembling it.
Might be looking for a new crankshaft or some connecting rods in the near-ish future... unless it's damaged beyond repair
I had my crank reground with new bearings over 5 years, ( 15k miles ) ago and still going strong.
Alright so I got the heads, cylinders, and pistons off today. The rear cylinder connecting rod is super loose so its probably the bearing? But the front one is absolutely fine and feels great. Going forward, is there any way to replace the bearings without splitting the crank case? And should I replace both or just one of the bearings? How do I know if the crank needs to be reground etc?
You really need a shop manual for step by step procedural guidance. Yes, the cases have to be 'split' to access the rod bolts. Do some serious searching on this site, Motoracer8 has some experience and sage advice in this regard.
I have a shop manual and have been following the directions in it. Reading ahead a little bit today and I was wondering where to get all the gaskets, o-rings, and piston circlips etc. Is there somewhere I can get all the parts at once instead of looking for them on eBay piece by piece? I only have a month to finish the rebuild so it would probably be good to have everything (or as much as I need).
I got my full engine gasket kit from Wemoto.co.uk
This has many o-rings and seals in it as well, but not quite everything you need for an engine teardown. Expect to source bolts, circlips, waterpump seal, bearings and worn engine parts separately.
I suggest you get as much as you can from a Yamaha dealer for the parts that are available. The rest of the stuff you get where you find it. Look at a parts fiche and write down the part numbers you need, then go shopping.
More information on rod bearings should be found in past discussions revealing what cars they fit. The "Clevite 77" brand is the recommended rod bearing material, and you will probably have to order them from an auto parts shop or machine shop that does automotive work.
Should I just buy a new crankshaft given the sounds my bike was making and the wobble in the connecting rod? Or is it possible that the crankshaft might still be good even with how bad it was sounding and all the metal shavings? I haven't gotten a chance to open up the crankcase yet but will hopefully be doing that tonight.
When mine went it was similar to yours with only the back one slack.
I was worried about regrinding the shaft with regards to the surface hardness, getting shell bearings etc.
Took the shaft and rods to a local engine machine shop and had it reground and fitted with Austin mini shell bearings with a tiny bit of modifying.
The shell bearings were cheap easy to come by in UK and had a range of sizes with -0.010" to -0.050".
Cost me just over 100GBP.
And like I said that was over 5 years ago and still use my bike to and from work every day.
Okay good to know.. I was thinking about just picking one up on eBay because there's a nice looking crankshaft for $20+shipping. Also I talked to a couple machinists in the area who said that nobody here really does crankshaft resurfacing, so I'm not sure if that would even be an option. Basically what you're saying though is that a bad knock like I have indicates damage to the crankshaft that would need to be fixed somehow, whether by new crankshaft or regrinding, right?
The rod journal on the crankshaft is pretty hard and sometimes needs little more than a good polishing, though it CAN suffer scoring if metal particles become trapped between the bearing shell and the journal. In the latter case the journal needs to be ground smooth.
I think the knocking sound comes as the big end of the rod distorts slightly and bearing material gets worn away. This leaves a bit of a gap that allows the parts to slap against each other as they transition from push to pull, and back again. The damaged rod often needs to be 'resized' before reusing it. A small amount of material is removed from the mating surfaces of the rod cap, then it is bolted to the rod and precision reamed back to correct size for the journal.
Quote from: fret nut on July 17, 2015, 02:01:44 AM
... is pretty hard and sometimes needs little more than a good polishing...
... a bit of a gap that allows the parts to slap against each other as they transition from push to pull, and back again. The damaged rod often needs to be 'resized' before reusing it.
Geez Fret, take it easy. Think I need a cold shower :o
"New" crank on eBay may not be any better than the one you already have. And there is no way to know about the crankshaft you have until you take things apart and actually measure the parts.
Any tips on rod bolt removal? Do I need to heat it up or use an impact gun or something? Can't seem to get them loose.
Use a long breaker bar. Don't hit them with a hammer or suchlike as you don't want nicks, dents or scratches on your rods or caps.
I see you said bolt oops! Do you have access to a press? You probably can use a big vice set up with hollow dowel to push them out until you can tap them through with a hammer and wooden dowel. Be careful things don't slip. As I said above you don't want to mar the surface of parts.
Meant nut whoops. Is it okay to use an impact wrench or not?
Oh ok, my first response then. I thought you meant the bolt out of conrod on my second response. I see no problem with using a rattle gun to undo if you are careful but don't use it on reassembly, make sure you have a good torque wrench. Note: I am not an expert engine builder.
So I got a new crankshaft and connecting rods, but the bearings are not the correct color according to the chart in the manual. Can I still use the crank and connecting rods with the incorrectly sized bearings? (a little too big I think.) Otherwise, where can I get new bearings of the correct size? I've looked everywhere and can't find them.
Did you get these parts separately, or as an assembled unit that had been working? Always if in doubt, and even if you are not in doubt you should use some Plastigage to determine the clearance.
This will be helpful for determining the clearances for the rod bearings but I don't know how you would test the main bearing clearance, as they are not half shells that are held by bolted caps. Some careful measuring with precision measuring tools is advised.
Rod bearing shells are easy enough to come by but not from a Yamaha dealer. You will need to use shells made for an automobile. I forget the specific models but there are at least a few. A Nissan and a Mazda, but I don't recall the models or years. There are some discussions on this site about this very subjsct, with the specific information.
Check to make sure the key on the main crank shaft for the valve timing isn't worn . This will make it sound like the engine is about to detonate itself . Mine went and I broke two cams and bent three valves.
Alright so an update: after much trouble, I've completely reassembled the motor with its new crankshaft and connecting rods. The clearance is within spec but they do have a lot of side to side wobble, so I'm just going to hope for the best. Motor is back on the bike and carbs are cleaned and back together (but not on bike). Seems like I won't be able to get them back on without disconnecting them from each other... Any tips?
I tried to reconnect the clutch lever and noticed that it was stuck so I couldn't connect it even with the clutch adjustment let all the way out. Before I was able to pull the clutch lever by hand to get it to work. Any ideas on this problem?
Also the radiator hose clamps are a real chore to get on.
Congratulations on getting the engine apart and back together. Hopefully the crank/rod work will fix the problem.
The carbs should be able to be replaced as a unit from the left side of the bike if I'm not mistaken. How did you get them out or did you remove the engine with them in place?
Regarding the clutch issue -it's unclear if the clutch lever itself is "frozen" or the cable? Also, when the engine was apart, did you have to dismantle the clutch?
Thanks!
It is the clutch itself, not the cable. I did have to take the clutch off to split the crank case. The clutch lever just won't give an inch which leads me to believe i have to do some sort of clutch adjustment. But yeah it's definitely the lever and not the cable. Cable is fine.
I removed the carbs after I took the engine off if I remember correctly. Messed around trying to get them back in a little bit and it wasn't working. I'll try again tonight.
Re getting the carbs back in:-
http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=13499.msg122123#msg122123
Personally I split them (& it does not mess up your sync)
Got everything back in, fixed the clutch (hit it with a soft hammer and then adjusted it), and jumped it.......
and it turns over fine (except there's a hissing noise from the real cylinder, possibly bent a valve from when I messed up the timing chain and was turning by hand)
but it won't start at all. Not catching or anything, but I can smell gas from the exhaust pipes so it must be kinda working. Before I put it back together I took the carbs apart and emptied them out but didn't do anything extensive other than spraying with carb cleaner.
So any ideas? Probably spark plugs right?
AKV95, how did you determine the clearances were within spec? A rod can slide side to side on the crank journal but should not tip or rock side to side if the clearances are correct.
Did you get any 'pops' or backfires? Or did it just crank and wheeze? Time to check for spark, then which cylinder is firing when. Is it possible you got coil wires crossed?
Also, time for a compression test to include or exclude a bent valve.
Used plastigage... There isn't any up and down play just some side to side, but I guess thats not okay.
Just cranked and wheezed. Anyways, I'm leaving to go back to school in 5 days and I'll be like 4000 miles away so I'm selling it now. Kinda bummed but at this point I feel like I've learned most of what I could have from the bike and its time to move on.
Thanks for all your guys' help and I'm sorry I wasn't able to get it running again. Hopefully the next guy will.