Riders Of Vision

General => General Board => Topic started by: Rikugun on August 14, 2018, 07:32:11 AM

Title: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: Rikugun on August 14, 2018, 07:32:11 AM
Has anyone else investigated replacing the H4 bulb with an LED replacement?  I just installed one last night but did not go for a ride (in the rain) to test the performance. In the garage it seems brighter. If nothing else, It's a brilliant white light in contrast to the halogen's almost yellowish output.

The big news - and the main reason I went this route - is amperage savings.  I needed the electrical power for something else I changed.
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: Walt_M. on August 15, 2018, 04:56:53 AM
Good idea. What light are you using? As my headlight is not working, replacing it with an LED seems like a better solution than fixing the old.
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: Rikugun on August 15, 2018, 08:21:46 AM
This particular one was a set of 2 bulbs I bought for an old Civic with crappy headlights. The cost for 2 was equivalent to one new H4 from Auotzone.  I am trying one on the Vision for reasons - you know, science and stuff. The box is marked "Autofather" with no other data or country of origin markings. No tech data on the box, bulbs, or installation sheet. There is also a note in awkward English informing me of what a smart purchase I made. Boys, this one appears to be pure Chineseum.

What's nice about these is the 3 pronged base is removable. Remove the OEM rubber dust cover and halogen bulb, install the new base and OEM lock ring, fit the rubber dust cover, and twist the bulb into place. I've seen on You-Tube videos (for bikes and cars) where the dust cover had to be cut to bit around the heat sink/fan assy. but not this one due to the removable base.

I tested it with the bikes battery and test leads - bike not running so nominally 12+ volts and got 2.2 amps low and 3.5 amps high beam. What's odd is the H4 bulb (55/60) pulled 6.6 and 7.3 which is quite a bit more than the power formula (A x I = W) had me thinking it would be. Not sure what to make out of that. Any ideas?
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: skucera on August 16, 2018, 12:40:34 AM
One of the young guys at work has an SV650, and he recently mounted an LED headlight with two projector lenses in it.  It's a 7" round headlight, but it looks pretty impressive.  I have no idea if it lights the road better than my old 5x7" halogen, but at least it should use a lot less power, and save his stator.  It's got me looking for a 5x7 version of the same sort of LED headlight for my motorcycle.

Scott
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: Rikugun on August 16, 2018, 07:37:28 AM
Quote from: skucera on August 16, 2018, 12:40:34 AM
I have no idea if it lights the road better than my old 5x7" halogen, but at least it should use a lot less power, and save his stator. 
That's what prompted me to make the change although some would argue this point. I also changed the two 1157 taillight bulbs with LED's. My dash mounted volt gage used to dip noticeably with brake application but no perceivable movement with the LED's. People who have followed me on rides comment on how bright it is too - all the better to be seen. The 1157 bulbs are 32 watts a piece (if memory serves) on the brake filament whereas the LED's are 1.2.


Quote from: skucera on August 16, 2018, 12:40:34 AM
It's got me looking for a 5x7 version of the same sort of LED headlight for my motorcycle.

I might not be understanding you correctly but the LED light I'm using is not a sealed beam. It is a bulb that replaces the halogen bulb and fits in the back of the original glass headlight assembly.
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: auto on August 16, 2018, 01:51:39 PM
I put one in that I got from ADVmonster. Single unit with it's own cooling fan.Called the native H4.Works great,but I did have to slightly grind the opening a bit for it to fit/pass through the opening. All the tabs fit correctly.Right now there on sale for $40.
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: skucera on August 19, 2018, 10:07:50 PM
Quote from: Rikugun on August 16, 2018, 07:37:28 AM
I might not be understanding you correctly but the LED light I'm using is not a sealed beam. It is a bulb that replaces the halogen bulb and fits in the back of the original glass headlight assembly.

You've got a great solution.  I was clear on what you did.  I was just wanting to share what my coworker did with his bike.

"Sealed beam" might be a quaint choice of words on my part, but there are solid state light replacements that don't reuse the motorcycle's original lens and reflector, and don't take an LED equivalent of an H4 bulb.  The guy at work used one of these drop-in 7" round LED "sealed beam" headlights, and I think he said it has 11 LED's in it... three low beams (one from a projector lens, and two others from barrel-shaped lenses on either side), three high beams (same sort of arrangement, with another projector lens and two more barrel-shaped lenses on either side), and four more yellow DRL's and one that is a backlit "LED" display in red at the bottom of the array.  He said it has an aluminum heat sink on the back, and pigtails for the H4 plug.

Anyway, I think I beat this to death.  :)

Scott
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on August 20, 2018, 11:42:51 PM
I was a fairly early adopter of LED and put an entire 7" round LED on my bike.  Chinese copy of the JW Speaker Unit fitted to the modern Brough Superior.  It was nice and white - seemed well brighter but there was no penetration when pointing down the road.  I ended up scrapping it and going back to Halogen.  I'd love to get a genuine JW Speaker unit - the reviews are excellent but it's hard to get good pricing on the Left Hand Traffic versions - they have an assymetric pattern so the USA models are no good here.
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: Rikugun on August 22, 2018, 08:25:37 AM
I went for a day-time ride this past weekend and followed for a bit. The front rider commented that my headlight was much brighter and easy to spot in his mirrors. POD, to your point regarding night performance, I still haven't ridden at night with it yet.

skucera - I get it now, thanks for the clarification.
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: Rikugun on August 23, 2018, 07:19:48 AM
So I finally did the first round of night performance tests with the LED light - sort of.

Since the set was originally intended for my Civic, I installed the remaining bulb on the right side. Same easy installation and the light is a brilliant white relative to the H4. Driving around town it was difficult to get a good comparison due to all the street lights. I can say the beams are very different. The halogen has a bright center section whereas the LED has a much broader beam. I think it would illuminate deer lurking alongside the road at night better.

With the car facing out the driveway and lighting up the neighbors house and a 6' fence, I used a floor mat to alternately block first the LED and then the halogen. From this test alone (albeit at an intermediate distance) I'm inclined to favor the LED. My plan is to do the same test when I travel some "country roads" when visiting family in that part of the state. I hope to get a better idea of how far the two light types project at a distance.

One thing I was unaware of until installing one of the bulbs in the car was all the FM radio stations went away - save one whose antenna is very close. Apparently this is a thing. I found many articles  addressing the issue. Here's one:
https://ledrider.com/led-auxiliary-lights-and-fm-radio-interference/ (https://ledrider.com/led-auxiliary-lights-and-fm-radio-interference/)
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: fret not on August 24, 2018, 01:57:58 AM
Something to be aware of is LEDs don't put out light the same way that incandescent bulbs do, and consequently they need very specific reflectors and lenses to "aim" the light beam.  Basically the LED "replacement" lights need to be engineered to your specific application.  If you just buy a replacement LED 'bulb' it is very likely to disappoint with it's beam and penetration into the dark.  You need either a unit  purposely designed for your specific lens/reflector set up, or a complete head light with all this already figured out and designed into the unit.  There is a fellow in Idaho that makes such things but they are not inexpensive.  (search Idabiker)
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: Rikugun on August 24, 2018, 07:15:31 AM
That's a good point. This has been an education for me having never looked into headlight applications before. The technology seems to be there but the manufacturing quality is suspect. It's all over the spectrum. A good deal of the product seems to come from one region of the world so there's that.

Apparently even when you buy an LED light assembly with presumably the requisite reflectors (as POD did), there is no guarantee it will perform well.

For my purposes on a motorcycle there are several things to consider. I will never willingly ride at night again. Those days are behind me. That's not to say I won't get caught in the position of having to ride home in the dark. That's happened once since I re-entered the sport in 2007 BTW. What I'm after is to be seen better and less stress on a vintage charging system. If night illumination is adequate, I'm OK with that based on the frequency that aspect will be necessary.
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: George R. Young on August 24, 2018, 09:03:08 AM
Quote from: Rikugun on August 24, 2018, 07:15:31 AM
. . . What I'm after is to be seen better and less stress on a vintage charging system. . .
One little irony for you. The Vision has a permanent magnet stator and a shunt regulator/rectifier. If you reduce the current load (e.g. LED instead of halogen), the current is delivered to the regulator/rectifier, heating it up more, and the current in the stator does not change (i.e. full output all the time).

The only way around that is a series regulator.
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: Rikugun on August 25, 2018, 08:43:54 AM
Thank you George, I've heard that argument here before.
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: motoracer8 on September 03, 2018, 05:47:00 PM
I don't want to start any arguments. but...When you turn on the lights is does put more of a load on the charging system. I've had a headlamp switch on my Vision for 30 years. When at idle and the lights are switched on the RPM is reduced about 150 RPM and voltage at the battery increases about one and a half volts. The small brown wire from the OE regulator goes to the light circuit so when the lights are on it increases the voltage to the system. Since the lights are wired on permanently  the system runs at maxium all the time.  There's no law in California that says one has to have the headlamp on except in certain areas, cars too. So I ride most of the time without the lights on. Maybe that's why my charging system has gone 30 years and 55'000 miles with no issues. I had my first stator fail In April of this year, 35 years old and 55'000 miles. I've had a new OE stator here from when you could still get em from Yamaha. I replaced the stator and replaced the regulator with a SH775 regulator from a CanAm. That regulator does not have the little brown wire because it senses the load increase when you turn on the lights and automatically increases the voltage the same one and a half volts the OE regulator did.  It runs much cooler as you can touch it when in operation where the OE regulator would burn your fingers. It would be nice if the new parts go another 55'000 miles.   
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: Rikugun on September 04, 2018, 11:49:11 AM
Thanks for weighing in motoracer8. Some good points there from real life observations. I'd be curious to learn what solution George has for his understanding of the OEM setup.

Before my '82 GPz was taken out by a left turning motorist, it too had in excess of 50,000 miles with the original stator and R/R. For what it's worth, that's air an cooled motor and stator under a dry cover. Being of similar vintage and having a brown sensing wire I'd guess it was similar technology to the OEM Vision R/R? I can't help but wonder if the short lived XZ charging components had less to do with the technology then and more to do with it's particular execution.

Regarding my XZ, I don't have the original R/R either so I can't speak to it's attributes and the function of the brown wire. I do have a light switch installed though. In my state it must be on when riding but there are times when I like having control over it's operation so I switched it. While I was at it, I bypassed the wiring that goes through the right hand handlebar switch - the less wire and connections between the battery and the light the better.

My light switch - isn't it cute?  :)
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: motoracer8 on September 04, 2018, 07:52:46 PM
 I suppose it's possible that a air cooled stator could run some cooler. Hot oil is not the best coolant and not much of it at that. The Yamaha Venture from the same era cooked stator coils too. I remember Suzukis from the early 80's were hard no stators as well. Yamaha tried to solve the stator issue on the Venture by drilling a very small hole in the bolt that holds the flywheel on. I don't remember if it helped or not?? Once again, hot oil and not much of it..  BMW in the early 80's had the same issue when the headlamps were permanently on. Batteries too low to start the engine. Everyone had to increase generator output, more heat and generator failures. I have a 1975 BMW R75/6, Bought new in 75. It has 175,000 miles on it with its original charging system because it has a headlight switch and a air cooled generator with some ventilation.  I service a friends 82 Yamaha 650 Seca. It has 61,000 miles on it and it's original charging system. It has a brush type air cooled generator. It's called a excited field type generator just like the ones on cars. They put out what is necessary to keep the battery charged so there's no excess heat.  Charging systems on motorcycles have improved a great deal in the last few years. With fuel injection, radios and other loads they had to improve. A Goldwing has a 90 amp alternator, as much as some cars.
   
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: George R. Young on September 04, 2018, 09:30:25 PM
Quote from: Rikugun on September 04, 2018, 11:49:11 AM
. . . I'd be curious to learn what solution George has for his understanding of the OEM setup. . . .
http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=11530.msg104923#msg104923
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on September 05, 2018, 03:19:26 AM
The idea that the stator with a shunt regulator puts out max power at all times is a complete myth.  If you short a battery, you get full power - and lots of sparks.  Induction coils are not the same.

Power is related to resistance, and the resistance of a shunted coil is negligible.  If you don't believe me start your bike and then turn on the lights.  The revs will dip, which is the back emf sucking more horsepower as the load (resistance) increases.  Shorting stator coils yields the same behavior of magnetic drag (magnetic reluctance) as open circuiting them.  No Power is consumed and no drag is felt.

The heat generated in the stator is largely caused by high resistance during the switching operation (around about 70 watts) - lower in Mosfet regulators because they switch faster and are more efficient.  There is some residual voltage drop with both devices, but it's very low.
 
If this was not the case then the stator would burn out in a day.  The wire is thin and it can't sustain full power for all that long.  The problem is when circuit resistance goes very high.  For example the connector is dirty, the regulator has failed, your battery is dead flat (or worse internally shorted), or your ignition switch is dirty.  The high resistance is a high load - you really do start to produce full power, the high resistance component and the stator and go all crispy.  These issues will be exactly the same with a series regulator, so while a series reg will be more accurate they are not a panacea for crispy stators because the problems are caused elsewhere.   
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: Rikugun on September 05, 2018, 08:29:18 AM
A well considered and presented argument. Thanks for contributing POD. I'm still using a MOSFET but was considering going with a series type - until now, Doesn't seem it's worth the effort or expense over what I currently have.

QuoteI suppose it's possible that a air cooled stator could run some cooler. Hot oil is not the best coolant and not much of it at that. The Yamaha Venture from the same era cooked stator coils too. I remember Suzukis from the early 80's were hard no stators as well.
The early 80's Suzuki's were air cooled engine w/dry stator covers. Maybe dry vs. wet had less to do with the longevity than the execution of the particular models components.
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: George R. Young on September 05, 2018, 02:47:42 PM
If you take a look at
https://www.vstrom.info/Smf/index.php/topic,20426.0.html
you'll see that the stator current rises with RPM to 27A at about 3000 RPM and then stays constant with a shunt regulator.

With a series regulator, the stator current is around 14A supplying the things that need current, primarily headlight, taillight and ignition.

Twice the current flowing in the stator resistance implies 4 times the heat. So if you want to reduce the heat damage to your stator by a factor of 4, the series regulator does it.

Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: Ken Williams on September 05, 2018, 08:59:04 PM
Data presented by George indicates IR power dissipation in the stator for the vstrom with a series regulator is 0.25 of the dissipation with a shunt regulator.  Vision experience should be similar.  This reduction in stator heating should improve stator life.  If I had to replace the stator and regulator on a Vision, I would certainly go with a series regulator. 
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on September 06, 2018, 12:00:46 AM
You are reading current, but thinking power.  Current should not be confused with heat generation.  It isn't about current, it's about power (more power=more heat) and power is a function of voltage - or more specifically voltage drop.  That voltage drop is caused by resistance. 

With a medium load the series reg's input is disconnected half the time so the meter reads half the current (meters average the reading), but actually it's full current half the time and no current the other half, so it averages as half.  With a shunt regulator it's full current all the time because it's always connected to something, but the resistance varies depending on whether it's shunting or not.
NOT DRAWING - series regulator   power = 0 current  = 0
                      - shunt regulator    power = max current2 * 0 resistance = 0
DRAWING        - series regulator   power = max current2 * resistance
                      - shunt regulator    power = max current2 * resistance

They are exactly the same, even though they operate differently and measure differently on your meters (unless you happen to have a watt meter)  It's largely a marketing ploy though there are other benefits of the series type.  Neither design however is inherently responsible for toasting stators - which is how we got into this discussion in the first place.

The trouble is that blaming reg design stops you from seeking the real cause which is high resistance in the circuits (High resistance = high power = high heat).  That high resistance is a fault condition on your bike which is why some bikes last for 20 years on a stator and others last only a short time.  They all have the same design, they don't all share the same faults.
Aside from poor stator quality which you can't do much about,  My top 3 places to look at are:
1.  The connector to the R/R - these are in a bad place for collecting dirt and oil, and many have different metals on either side which lead to corrosion and resistance.  Remove the connector and solder the wires.
2.  Battery - Don't use your bike as a battery charger.  Keep it on trickle, or charge before you ride
3.  Ignition switch - measure the voltage between your red and brown wires with all the lights off.  It should be close to zero.  If not, then pull apart and clean your ignition switch.
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: Rikugun on September 06, 2018, 08:05:13 AM
Sadly, most of the electrical discussion is above my pay grade. From a practical standpoint, POD's checklist of potential high resistance connections is certainly something everyone is capable of looking into. For me, the ignition switch is the last remaining piece of that puzzle and is therefore on my to-do list.

To Ken's point, if I was faced with replacing the components I'd probably try a series regulator. Why not - I've tried all the rest and after all, it's what the kids are doing these days.  :)
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: George R. Young on September 06, 2018, 09:24:06 AM
Quote from: Prophet Of Doom on September 06, 2018, 12:00:46 AM
. . .With a medium load the series reg's input is disconnected half the time so the meter reads half the current (meters average the reading), but actually it's full current half the time and no current the other half, so it averages as half.  With a shunt regulator it's full current all the time because it's always connected to something, but the resistance varies depending on whether it's shunting or not.
NOT DRAWING - series regulator   power = 0 current  = 0
                      - shunt regulator    power = max current2 * 0 resistance = 0
DRAWING        - series regulator   power = max current2 * resistance
                      - shunt regulator    power = max current2 * resistance

They are exactly the same, even though they operate differently and measure differently on your meters (unless you happen to have a watt meter)  It's largely a marketing ploy though there are other benefits of the series type.  Neither design however is inherently responsible for toasting stators - which is how we got into this discussion in the first place.
. . .
The difference is that the shunt setup is drawing all the time, while the series setup is drawing only some fraction of the time, so the stator  heating is less.

Quote from: Prophet Of Doom on September 06, 2018, 12:00:46 AM. . .
The trouble is that blaming reg design stops you from seeking the real cause which is high resistance in the circuits (High resistance = high power = high heat).  That high resistance is a fault condition on your bike which is why some bikes last for 20 years on a stator and others last only a short time.  They all have the same design, they don't all share the same faults.
Aside from poor stator quality which you can't do much about,  My top 3 places to look at are:
1.  The connector to the R/R - these are in a bad place for collecting dirt and oil, and many have different metals on either side which lead to corrosion and resistance.  Remove the connector and solder the wires.
2.  Battery - Don't use your bike as a battery charger.  Keep it on trickle, or charge before you ride
3.  Ignition switch - measure the voltage between your red and brown wires with all the lights off.  It should be close to zero.  If not, then pull apart and clean your ignition switch.
Certainly connector with high resistance are a problem, but they cause heating of the connector, not of the stator. The only thing that heats the stator is the current flowing through it, and if a connector has high resistance, it would tend to reduce the current.
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: fiat-doctor on September 06, 2018, 09:28:10 AM
The only thing I know for certain is that we have some VERY smart people on this list!







Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: Rikugun on September 07, 2018, 10:26:39 AM
It does make for thought provoking and interesting reading. As smart as they may be however, the discussion is largely academic. Without consensus regarding cause/effect/mitigation, it's all just lofty theory. With all due respect to the participants of course.  :)
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: Ken Williams on September 07, 2018, 05:25:04 PM
Stator wiring has a small but non-zero resistance.  The stator is heated mainly by the current flowing through it.  Stator current is approximately equal if the battery is being charged by this current or it is being shorted through low resistance in the shunt regulator.  The stator is always being heated by this current flow while the engine is running with a shunt regulator. 

With a series regulator stator current is interrupted when the battery requires no help to maintain proper operating voltage.  Therefore, the stator is heated only when current is supplied to the battery.  Unless stator output is always needed to maintain battery charge, the stator should be heated less with a series regulator.  Less power dissipation in the stator leads to a lower temperature and should lead to a longer stator life. 

With either regulator the most power is taken from the engine when supplying current to the battery.  This power is current multiplied by system voltage.  Much less power is taken when a shunt regulator is shorting the output since the phase current is flowing through a small resistance.  This power is approximately the same current multiplied by (.4 volt?).  With a series regulator virtually no power is taken from the engine when not charging the battery. 

When the series regulator shuts off a phase, there is voltage spike in the stator that attempts to maintain the current flow.  The regulator has to have sufficient protection to snub this voltage spike or semiconductors and conceivably the stator could be damaged.  Semiconductors designed specifically for this task have been commonly available for decades.  I assume modern series regulator designs adequately handle switching transients. 
Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on September 07, 2018, 06:45:14 PM
Quote from: Rikugun on September 07, 2018, 10:26:39 AM
It's all just lofty theory. With all due respect to the participants of course.  :)
Quite so, and I have to admit, that it's all rather parroting what I've read or other people have told me that I make personal sense of.  I'll bet none of us have sat in an auto electrics lab and run the scenarios in a scientific manner.
The only thing I know for absolute certainty is that I've been scrupulous about unwanted resistance (prompted by my RZ meltdown in 1987), and my stator is still a nice honey colour using a stock r/r.


It will stay that way forever unless I get away from my computer and go and re-shape my seat pan.  I'll stop talking about it.



Title: Re: LED headlight anyone?
Post by: Rikugun on September 08, 2018, 08:56:59 AM
Thanks POD, Ken, and George. At least there seems to be consensus the series regulator may have some benefits - or at least that's my take away.

And yes Prophet - for the love of Thor, get that bike back on the road!