Riders Of Vision

General => TechTalk => Topic started by: WGuaire on December 30, 2019, 05:16:34 PM

Title: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: WGuaire on December 30, 2019, 05:16:34 PM
Hi - I have a new roadstercycle mosfet regulator/rectifier. I'm running an Eastern Beaver PC-8 fuse box. I added a little LED voltage flasher. It attaches to my headlight positive and the ground runs to the ground cable of the battery. The flashing volt reader was flashing red 3 times in bursts. That means power is low. I have a new Yuasa AGM battery.

I checked the power at the battery terminals at 2000 RPM. 11.96 volts!!! What and where should I check next? Is it possible for the alternator going? If so, how do I check it?

BTW, I tried to do a search on the forum. Didn't work so well.

Regards,
Bill
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: WGuaire on December 31, 2019, 03:55:19 AM
"Search" brought this up from Rick G:
"A properly functioning Vision stator should put out 50 to 55 VAC. Measure  across any two stator leads  in succession."
I'll have to figure out how to do that.
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: fret not on December 31, 2019, 04:05:19 AM
With the ignition off what voltage does your battery read?  Have you checked the continuity readings on the 3 wires coming out of the stator?  Check them with the motor off, then check voltage with it running.  The technical information can be found in a link on the opening page: in the block of blue bars in the lower left side of the page, "Dave's Ignition FAQ".  You will find what you need there.
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: MikeScoot on December 31, 2019, 05:34:09 AM
Might also be a good idea to check the calibration of the multimeter. Oslo, what is the battery voltage when the bike is not running compared to when it IS running?

Oops, Fret mentioned that.
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on December 31, 2019, 06:31:31 AM

Try going though this...
Electrex's Stator / Regulator Fault Finding Chart (https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B5rMo73UpmHbbjlyMXNJNVpDZWM)
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: Ken Williams on December 31, 2019, 09:15:03 AM
The Rick G voltage measurement is made with engine running and stator wires disconnected from the regulator/rectifier.  If you make these measurements, also measure the voltage from stator lead to ground.  Significant voltage there indicates the stator wiring is shorted to ground.  Generally, stator serviceability can be determined with stator lead to lead and lead to ground resistance measurements, engine not running. 
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: WGuaire on January 01, 2020, 03:47:03 PM
Here's my first test. The Power Probe tells me polarity and if there is current, it will show the voltage. It is connected to the battery's terminals. These three yellow wires at the Reg/Rectifier are the 3 wires coming off the stator. Notice each of the three read as (-), going to a ground. The motor is not running. Has my stator gone to ground?

Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: WGuaire on January 01, 2020, 04:25:37 PM
Second test: I disconnected the yellow stator wires from the Reg/Rect. The red probe is on the 3 yellow wires at the gang plug. The black probe is on the NEG battery terminal. The setting on the meter is at 200 ohm. I'm getting continuity on the ohm meter.
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: fret not on January 01, 2020, 05:11:33 PM
One point toward clarity is to make sure your battery is well charged before testing anything.  You reported the battery is new AGM type, but is it charged fully?  Once you determine the battery is charged then proceed with the other tests.
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: WGuaire on January 01, 2020, 05:56:39 PM
I put in a new Yuasa AGM. Charged by Nocco. I'll continue in the AM.
Thanks, for helping!
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: Ken Williams on January 01, 2020, 06:23:34 PM
It appears that second test is a measurement of stator phase to ground resistance with stator not connected to the reg/rect.  If so, the value of 7 ohms indicates the stator is shorted to ground and must be rewound or replaced. 
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: WGuaire on January 03, 2020, 08:37:31 PM
Next week a new stator will be arriving. It was baked and fried.
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: WGuaire on January 10, 2020, 04:15:59 PM
I got an Africa Twin stator from an eBay seller. It fits!
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: injuhneer on January 11, 2020, 04:16:55 PM
Quote from: WGuaire on January 10, 2020, 04:15:59 PM
I got an Africa Twin stator from an eBay seller. It fits!

What model year(s)? Which seller? Does the rotor fit over the new stator?
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: WGuaire on January 11, 2020, 05:46:03 PM
It fits. I still have to get everything attached and wired up again the the RR. We'll see if it rotates when I can start up.
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: injuhneer on January 15, 2020, 10:42:47 AM
Any update? If this works/fits I need to order one for my Viz.
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: WGuaire on January 15, 2020, 11:29:41 AM
Quote from: injuhneer on January 15, 2020, 10:42:47 AM
Any update? If this works/fits I need to order one for my Viz.

Started and warmed up two days ago so I could check the oil level. I'll ride shortly. Pics to follow.
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: injuhneer on January 16, 2020, 10:50:45 AM
What model of Africa Twin?
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: WGuaire on January 18, 2020, 11:41:17 AM
Mike - It's the European 750. Years about '93 to 2003. I did my search for the year 2000.

My USA eBay __
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Stator-Magneto-coil-Fits-Honda-XRV750-Africa-Twin-1993-1994-1995-1996-1997-2003/392410321194?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: WGuaire on January 18, 2020, 11:47:02 AM
My parts guy never got back to me about a replacement gasket. I used Yamabond 4 instead. I squeezed a blob onto some cardboard and applied the goo onto the gasket surface using popsicle sticks and cotton swabs, keeping it thin. At my local variety store I bought some small corks that kept the bond out of the screw holes.
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: fret not on January 18, 2020, 03:20:35 PM
Nice new stator!  Did you replace and stake the starter clutch bolts while it was open? :police:
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: WGuaire on January 19, 2020, 08:08:13 AM
No. Didn't really know about them. Got a picture?
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: fret not on January 19, 2020, 03:14:48 PM
here is a mental picture: the starter clutch is attached to the inside of the flywheel with 3 socket head bolts that come from the inside, through the starter clutch, and thread into the flywheel.  The factory used bolts that are just a bit too short but they center punched their ends to distort the threads so hopefully they would not loosen by themselves.  FAIL

You need bolts that pass through the starter clutch and flywheel and protrude by a couple threads.  This exposed part of the bolts is what you need to peen over (mushroom)so they can not just back out and loosen by themselves.  In future repairs to the starter clutch it would be necessary to use a die grinder or Dremel tool to remove the distorted ends of the bolts, then they can be removed as usual.

If left at factory setting there is a distinct possibility that the starter clutch can work loose, rattle, bang, and jerk shortly before it lets go.  The ensuing damage usually entails elongation of the bolt holes, which basically ruins the flywheel unless you don't need the starter, and possible fracture of the starter clutch.  Usually when this happens there is a rattling noise and clunks that get worse as the parts deteriorate, but this noise seems to go away when the engine is revved.  If you hear this noise your  flywheel is already damaged but might yet be saved. :police:

Starter clutches are currently available as they are used on other more recent bikes, flywheels are not.
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: injuhneer on January 24, 2020, 07:54:02 AM
I read in another thread where on ROV'r rotated the clutch by 60* to drill/tap new holes for the starter clutch. I am guessing that flywheel was not beyond repair.

As I read that post I was thinking that a Helicoil or similar would provide another method to save a flywheel.
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: injuhneer on January 24, 2020, 07:55:15 AM
Quote from: WGuaire on January 18, 2020, 11:41:17 AM
Mike - It's the European 750. Years about '93 to 2003. I did my search for the year 2000.

My USA eBay __
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Stator-Magneto-coil-Fits-Honda-XRV750-Africa-Twin-1993-1994-1995-1996-1997-2003/392410321194?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Thank you. I ordered one and it should be here later today. Tomorrow will be the installation.

Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: WGuaire on January 24, 2020, 03:29:00 PM
Some of the Chinese sellers ship through a place in the US. Mine shipped from Texas.
The best R/R that i have found, I get from roadstercycle.com.
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: injuhneer on January 25, 2020, 09:43:13 AM
The ordered stator arrived.

I believe I am going to add something to it. I see that the wire is coated as it should be. I also noticed the complete absence of a conformal coating on the wire at each pole to immobilize the wires. Over time vibration encourages wear at the contact points of the wires. In the olden days stator or rotors were not only wound with coated wire but often had layers of glass or polyester fabric included. This was to prevent the wear and dampen vibration. In later years the conformal coating method became prevalent. Now they don't bother with either.

I will add a conformal coating to the poles on the stator to immobilize the wires. This is especially needed for the wire runs between the poles on the obverse side.

I'll have to go research which class (I think class F is dielectric and good to 325*F) and type to use. In the meantime I can fit it and get the connector ready.
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: WGuaire on January 25, 2020, 02:05:03 PM
I made use of the male/female connectors and connected the 3 stator wires to the white plastic connector. My Reg/Rec got the male side of the white connector. I simply snapped them together. If I need to change or remove a component, it's unplug and detach.
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: injuhneer on January 25, 2020, 11:38:53 PM
I pulled the cover today. Of course there was blue RTV everywhere.  ::)

After cleaning up the RTV mess I found the gasket was damaged and the thread of the case were stripped in one hole. After disconnecting the harness the cover  was cleaned up and the old stator removed. It was completely toasted on the reverse side. It is a wonder it generated power at all.

After fitting the new stator I made a few measurements. The stator core is about 4mm thicker than the OEM. That puts the screw heads that hold it 4mm closer to the flywheel/rotor. If someone has added longer bolts for the starter clutch this stator will put the screw heads close to the protruding bolts.

Of course the seals on the OEM stator leads were molded on. I am cutting a few layers of 1/8" BUNA-N to make new seals.

I ordered a new 11H-15451-11-00 gasket. In the meantime the seals will be made and the stripped hole repaired.
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: injuhneer on January 31, 2020, 09:20:53 AM
I have to say that the routing of the stator and sensor wires is a little nonsensical.

Considering the oil levels and the pulsations in the crankcase as well as putting the molded block seals on the wiring it is, well, silly. An egress point a bit higher would make more sense.

Since the new stator has a sleeve to cover the wires I'll use it in combination with a grommet sliced in half to make the other part of the seal. It appears that the crush will be enough to seal it all up.

(http://plan9.ootfab.com:90/external/Vision/tn_DSC07457.JPG)

(http://plan9.ootfab.com:90/external/Vision/tn_DSC07458.JPG)

(http://plan9.ootfab.com:90/external/Vision/tn_DSC07459.JPG)

(http://plan9.ootfab.com:90/external/Vision/tn_DSC07460.JPG)
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: injuhneer on January 31, 2020, 09:53:10 AM
Quote from: WGuaire on January 25, 2020, 02:05:03 PM
I made use of the male/female connectors and connected the 3 stator wires to the white plastic connector. My Reg/Rec got the male side of the white connector. I simply snapped them together. If I need to change or remove a component, it's unplug and detach.

I had purchased some connectors that fit the SH775 regulator so I'll use those but keep the 3 way spade connector just in case. Who knows when it may come in handy.
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on January 31, 2020, 05:08:28 PM
Remember that the oil is under a fair bit of pressure. You'll probably want to seal up the end of the sleeving as well as the insides of the grommets. 

On the XZ400 I drilled out the stock bungs, threaded and sealed the new wires with Yamabond - worked a treat.  Unlike normal "heat/oil resistant" RTV, Yamabond 4 maintains its integrity in hot oil and holds pressure.  Amazing stuff and well worth the price.  About $25 a tube.
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: jefferson on January 31, 2020, 05:44:39 PM
Something that will help stave off leaks is to get the wires and grommets the wires goes through as oil free as possible. I ended up filling the cavity between the 2 grommets with Yamabond.
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: injuhneer on February 01, 2020, 12:27:28 AM
I appreciate the advice.  :D

I don't have any Yamabond. Maybe the dealer nearby does.

I do have a variety of Permatex aviation sealants. I think the #3 will do the job (and cleans up with alcohol later).

I agree that the sleeve and grommets will need sealant. If I were a bit more patient the cover would make a nice mold to cast new parts.

I do intend to add o-ring sections to the grommet grooves to provide additional sealing surface.

Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on February 01, 2020, 04:06:46 AM
Quote from: injuhneer on February 01, 2020, 12:27:28 AM
I don't have any Yamabond. Maybe the dealer nearby does.

It's way cheaper on ebay than any dealer.
Buy yourself a tube.  if you don't like it, I'll pay for it
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: injuhneer on February 01, 2020, 09:36:51 AM
There are 3oz tubes of Yamabond 4 on Amazon for under $10 USD.

The gray ThreeBond is another I have used in place of Yamabond with success. It worked nicely as a case sealant for the Vmax crowd.

And a great idea about cutting the wires then drilling the bungs for re-use. Of course that raised another question for me. If the area needs to be sealed why use a fabric covered wire that will (eventually) wick oil past the seals? Maybe they thought we would clean and detail more than ride?   :laugh:



Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: jefferson on February 01, 2020, 11:39:33 AM
I think Three Bond 1104 is the same stuff. I've used it before with success.
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: injuhneer on February 10, 2020, 08:24:43 AM
I can report that the Africa Twin stator fits and works.

After wiring in the stator to the SH775 regulator the engine was started and voltage monitored.

At the battery the reading steadily climbed (at idle) to 13.6-13.7vdc. After warm-up revving to ~2000 RPM the reading climbed to 14.8 then bounced between 14.5 and 14.7 (lo/hi, L/R signals, brake light).

Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: WGuaire on February 10, 2020, 01:09:22 PM
Quote from: injuhneer on February 10, 2020, 08:24:43 AM
I can report that the Africa Twin stator fits and works.

After wiring in the stator to the SH775 regulator the engine was started and voltage monitored.

At the battery the reading steadily climbed (at idle) to 13.6-13.7vdc. After warm-up revving to ~2000 RPM the reading climbed to 14.8 then bounced between 14.5 and 14.7 (lo/hi, L/R signals, brake light).

Good news on the fitment.
  My 3 wire connector was a problem. It didn't make good enough contact, causing heat, causing melting of the connector body. I cut it out and directly connected the 3 stator wires to the 3 R/R wires. Much better now! The Mosfet from Roadster Cycle has a disconnect anyway at the R/R.
  The fuel tank is on the left in the pic. An Eastern Beaver fuse panel is showing.

Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: auto on February 10, 2020, 01:48:07 PM
What made you think and try a Honda Africa twin stator?
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: WGuaire on February 12, 2020, 09:39:13 AM
Quote from: auto on February 10, 2020, 01:48:07 PM
What made you think and try a Honda Africa twin stator?

Auto - That's the European 750 Africa Twin. I used the search function on this website. I picked 2000 to keep it simple for checking on eBay and other shop by model searches.
  I bought on eBay. ALL the pix from all suppliers looked they come from the same Chinese factory. Rick's will charge more, but replace if you get a bad one.
  Mine is pumping out around 70 AC volts, better than stock!
The stock fuse box fuses the circuits: Main, Headlight, Signal, Ignition. The stock Reg sends power forward to shunt juice that it has a hard time actually regulating! The MOSFET just works and sends a steady, regulated current directly back to the battery. I'm using the little LED voltage reader sold by Roadster. It's always looking right.
  I replaced the cheesey stock fuse box with a Digi-key set up, I found on this site. I moved all those fused connections away from the standard location to fit in the PC-8. I had to extend some of the wires from the old stock fuse panel wiring to move each little fused box out the way.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Stator-Magneto-coil-Fits-Honda-XRV750-Africa-Twin-1993-1994-1995-1996-1997-2003/392410321194?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: injuhneer on February 12, 2020, 11:44:49 PM
I purchased an Africa Twin stator on Amazon. $45.00 USD for the stator and ~$5.00 for a three year replacement plan.

Zsoog Stator Coil Fits Honda XRV750 Africa Twin 1993-2003 VF1000F 84/VF1000R 1984-1986 XL600/VF700/VF750/VFR700/VFR750
by OULI Parts
Learn more: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TLRMPGK/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_.pnrEb673V7H6
Title: Re: 1983 getting 11.96 volts
Post by: WGuaire on February 13, 2020, 09:08:09 AM
Looks like the same kit I got. The $5 replacement charge makes it a better deal, just in case.