Does anyone know of any fairly common coils with the same stud pattern as the XZ? I have four here but don't trust any of them.
I'm pretty sure they are the same as used to be found on a LOT of Yams back in the 70's and 80's, but they seem a little hard to come across these days.
Coils are coils and I can always jig something with different coils, but ones with the same stud distance would be great if anyone has any tips.
In the meantime I'll have another look on Ebay.
Cheers
Probably should have put this in the spares section.
Test them if you have the facility, or have them tested. If they test "good" when cool but fail in service they need to be replaced. Ignition coils get warm when in use, and the heat cycling can cause internal coil wire to break and open the circuit.
Yeah, coils can be tricky and lead to a lot of frustration when they are failing but not failed completely. There's no easy sure fire way to test them really because, as you mentioned, temperature can be a big factor and testing when hot is not convenient. Best thing is to use new ones when they are suspect.
I used to have oodles of these things kicking around many years ago and suspect ones went in the bin quicksmart. That way they don't torment one! :-)
I believe I'm a candidate for replacing my coils. I looked up by part number and all I found are used ones.
Part # 3Y6-82310-60-00
So it sounds like we might need a replacement coil specified.
I suppose the primary and secondary of a known good could be measured. This is a transistor controlled ignition. Consequently there should be many coils that would "work" but getting the mounting and HT leads correct might be fun.
The coils I used were nology. Just had to drill one hole which was no big deal. I also used them on the 650 Seca and when I sold it moved them to the ZRX. They have worked great in all applications.
Quote from: jefferson on July 19, 2020, 11:25:48 AM
The coils I used were nology. Just had to drill one hole which was no big deal. I also used them on the 650 Seca and when I sold it moved them to the ZRX. They have worked great in all applications.
Which one(s) did you use?
https://www.nology.com/apply.html
Pretty sure it was a couple of pfc-03s models. I think the Vision requires 3 ohm coils. It's been a long time since doing it. I'm sure I kept the receipt, but where did i put it.
I think I'll settle for something I may have to adapt/drill etc. to mount. Getting new ones with the right stud spacing (~55mm) seems unlikely.
Plenty of inexpensive ones on EBay. Will order later this morning and send link. Have to work now.
Quote from: WGuaire on July 19, 2020, 02:00:02 PM
Quote from: jefferson on July 19, 2020, 11:25:48 AM
The coils I used were nology. Just had to drill one hole which was no big deal. I also used them on the 650 Seca and when I sold it moved them to the ZRX. They have worked great in all applications.
Which one(s) did you use?
https://www.nology.com/apply.html
I remember using Nology coils on the Vmax.
Quote from: jefferson on July 19, 2020, 02:27:39 PM
Pretty sure it was a couple of pfc-03s models. I think the Vision requires 3 ohm coils. It's been a long time since doing it. I'm sure I kept the receipt, but where did i put it.
Jefferson - If you can remember I'll probably get one. Maybe I can talk to their tech help?!
Using a better coil does make a difference.
Another thing that helps is running the power to the coils off a relay. You would have to check it with a meter, but I'm sure the voltage drop would be enough to benefit from the relay mod.
New coils (advertised for slightly smaller machine, and of completely different dimensions) on the way.
Will report after installation and testing.
Quote from: jefferson on July 19, 2020, 08:51:57 PM
Another thing that helps is running the power to the coils off a relay. You would have to check it with a meter, but I'm sure the voltage drop would be enough to benefit from the relay mod.
Good point. I happen to have a box full of Bosch relays. That is a mod worth doing.
Quote from: injuhneer on July 21, 2020, 09:17:41 PM
Good point. I happen to have a box full of Bosch relays. That is a mod worth doing.
I've never even considered doing that, but am now.
I have never even considered doing that. Why would you want to add something else that can fail and stop your bike from running?
My take is that by running an almost direct supply of power from the battery one would bypass potential resistance in the wiring loom (harness) and have a better chance of supplying the maximum available power to the coils. That would help to ensure a healthier spark and better flame propagation (better ignition and explosion of fuel charge) and, perhaps, make starting easier and running more efficient.
But, yes, it would (arguably) introduce an additional potential point of failure.
I guess I've been on here too long and tend to forget long ago solutions to problems. Meticulous cleaning of ALL electrical connections in the wiring harness and replacing the HV wires and sparkplug caps will solve your starting problems.
Quote from: Walt_M. on July 22, 2020, 03:45:12 PM
I guess I've been on here too long and tend to forget long ago solutions to problems. Meticulous cleaning of ALL electrical connections in the wiring harness and replacing the HV wires and sparkplug caps will solve your starting problems.
lolol Yeah, that's usually done the trick for me, but these XZ's seem to need all the help they can get to prevent them from getting the sulks.
Recently mine starts pretty easily with stock set-up, but will probably do the relay mod as pre-emptive measure. And who knows (?) maybe it will deliver better running.
I read on one of the XZ Facebook forums of a German XZ owner using coils from a 2004 Yamaha R1. Trouble is I cant find the posting again.....
These are stick coils that fix on top of the spark plug cap and it looks like an earth wire and a LT power wire connect to them. No need to drill the frame just a bit of a fiddle with some wiring.
Has anyone experience with these?
Help me out here please if I am wrong.
The Haynes specification for an OEM coil for the XZ are
Primary resistance: 2.7 Ohms
Secondary Resistance 7.9KiloOhms
I have just pulled a coil from a donor bike and the measurements are
Primary resistance: 3.0 Ohms
Secondary Resistance 8.3KiloOhms
That indicates to me that its a healthy coil. I.e if the Secondary resistance were below 7.9 KiloOhms then I would have a problem. resulting in a lower spark voltage.(Orange colour, not blue)
So the OEM R1 Stick Coil Specifications are:
Primary resistance: 1.91- 1.61 Ohms
Secondary Resistance 8.5- 11.5 KiloOhms
This would indicate to me that the spark voltage from the OEM R1 Stick coils will be much healthier (higher) than from the OEM XZ coils. I assume thats a good thing. Am I right?
In my case I run Iridium plugs which have performed faultlessly.
If you are interested in reliable riding, (rather than having a totally OEM bike), is there any reason not to use R1 stick coils instead of a bolt-onto-the-frame OEM look-alike?
Quote from: pinholenz on August 08, 2020, 12:04:31 AM
is there any reason not to use R1 stick coils instead of a bolt-onto-the-frame OEM look-alike?
I get twisted around by electrics, but wouldn't nearly halving the resistance double your TCI current?.
Whether or not you let the magic smoke out you will only know through experimentation. Have you got a spare TCI?
Yes, the lower primary resistance will require that the TCI provide more current to the coil. The current would be about 14V / Coil resistance. The charging system supplies more than 12 volts when running. The TCI transistors are pretty big and may handle it. If anyone knows what transistors are used in the output you could look up the data sheet. I think I saw that information somewhere.
The voltage output from the secondary coil is dependent on the ratio of turns of wire between the primary and secondary. If the ratio is 1000 turns the output voltage would be ~14,000 volts. This does not take into consideration parasitic resistance in the circuit.
You cannot tell coil output from resistance. The diameter and length of the wire are both factors. A smaller diameter wire with the same number of turns will have a higher resistance. More turns of the same diameter wire will have more resistance but would provide a higher spark voltage due to a higher turns ratio (keeping the primary coil the same).
Fortunately I do have a spare TCI. Thanks for your concern POD!
Bernd Knechties in Germany has helped me track down the originator of the use of the Coil Stacks in XZ's. His name is Jurgen and he did use Coil Sticks from a 2004 Yamaha R1. ( I see no reason why other years would not work as well). Bernd (Aka Ernie) says the second adopter is Dennis Lagopodis from Greece. Dennis bought an XZ in Germany and rode it home to Greece.
I spoke to Dennis via video link last night. He confirmed that it is an easy fit. The Coil Stick sits up taller than the regular spark plug cap. The same orange wire that comes from the TCI to the OEM coil joins up to the orange wire on the tail of the Coil Stick wiring. The other wire goes to the other terminal.
I will give it a try in the next few weeks. If it works OK then it will be a handy alternative to our OEM coils.
This is interesting. While researching the ignition of the XZ I have found statements indicating it is transistor controlled and others that it is capacitive discharge. The coil specification for each is different.
The ~3Ω is typical of transistor systems. The R1 measures to be lower on the primary and higher on the secondary than the XZ coil. I have seen a broad range of values for CDI coils. The Hella CoP units have a spec of 0.3Ω-1.0Ω primary and 8Ω-15Ω secondary.
I suppose the good news is that these R1 coils can be run by the XZ ignition module!
I have a handful of the Hellas on hand. I am wondering if it would be worth testing them on my bike.
I'm not sure who said it is cdi but the Vision definitely is TCI.
It is cited as CDI in several of the articles from Cycle in the Resources.
My usual ref for ignition problems:-
ridersofvision.net > technical > Dave's Ignition FAQ
Hi Mike,
The Haynes workshop manual refers to the "igniter" as a TCI unit. Since Haynes manuals closely follow the manufacturers workshop manuals, (which POD has made available on this forum), its a safe bet that this is all XZ's run a Transistor Controlled Ignition (TCI) and not a Capacitor Discharge Ignition (CDI). Hence the reference to "beefy" transistors in the postings above.
I think Cycle has got his terminology mixed up if he was talking about the XZ's ignition system.
Cheers
If it was CDI it would have a fairly sizeable capacitor in the box. It doesn't.
Can't be a CDI without the C
Quote from: Prophet Of Doom on August 13, 2020, 07:19:53 AM
If it was CDI it would have a fairly sizeable capacitor in the box. It doesn't.
Can't be a CDI without the C
True enough. I haven't cracked one open and as such didn't know (why I asked).
Quote
True enough. I haven't cracked one open and as such didn't know (why I asked).
It's not too tricky to pull apart but you need a good solder-sucker or solder soaking ribbon to free the pins that connect to the connectors moulded into the case. Once the pins are all desoldered it comes apart pretty easily - but you have to wiggle the heat-sinks a bit to get them out of their slots. You'll see what I mean when you open the screw-on cover.
Melting or cutting an access hole in the other side is NOT a good idea in my opinion as there would be too much risk of damaging the innards.
Quote from: MikeScoot on August 13, 2020, 11:54:29 PM
Melting or cutting an access hole in the other side is NOT a good idea in my opinion as there would be too much risk of damaging the innards.
I couldn't agree more.
De-soldering the pins is easy enough, and if you don't have the skills to do that, then you sure as hell wont have the skills to fix it once you've cut open an access hatch.
Yeah, words have meanings. I recall in the 50s going to a "coke machine" to get a soda. It was common terminology to use "coke" to refer to any soda. In the 70s when I was working in a dealership CDI ignition was just becoming common. Remember the Kawasaki Blue Streak? 3 cylinder 500cc 2 stroke screamer. Our mechanics were cautioned specifically about the possibility of stopping a heart from the discharge of the ignition system. CDI became a 'universal' term for electronic ignitions, but CDI is a specific type of system, among others in the 'electronic ignition' group. :police:
I do understand the difference. One system accumulates energy in the coil. The other accumulates in the capacitor. One uses field collapse to generate high voltage. The other using a pulse step-up transformer.
Indeed. Words aren't always used correctly. One of my favorites is the juxtaposition of "tolerate" and "condone" in contemporary media but I digress.
I asked the initial question about type to determine which coil type was needed. Now that CoP is common there are dozens of coil models for automotive applications that are inexpensive and can be purchased new.
I appreciate the leg-up on the research gents. :-)
@ FretNot - I lived in Sherwood Forest when I was a youngster. I see you are in Grass Valley. My dad was a general foreman during the Oroville Dam project.
I am familiar with that neighborhood on Old Auburn rd. Rural yet close enough to town. I am a bit farther out south of there, east of Lake of the Pines a couple miles. FIRE SEASON is here and I still need to cut some trees near my buildings.
Glad you other Mikes know where each other is (are?). I have no idea where you both are - other than that it is way too far for me and my chainsaw to be there before dinner tomorrow night - or even the night after that.
Quote from: MikeScoot on August 16, 2020, 05:13:07 AM
Glad you other Mikes know where each other is (are?). I have no idea where you both are - other than that it is way too far for me and my chainsaw to be there before dinner tomorrow night - or even the night after that.
I live about 15 miles from Tombstone, Arizona. Less than a mile from Fort Huachuca, Arizona.
Tombstone, Arizona desert country, for sure. A bit hot this time of year. Warm enough here in the Sierra foothills (36 - 38C), I can only imagine the heat in Arizona. I used to live in the desert but developed an affinity for anything green, so now I live in the woods of northern California.
Hmm, news here in New Zealand today was that the hottest place in world, Death Valley, reached its highest temperature in 100 odd years....
But I digress. Today I jury-rigged a Coil on Plug from the R1 on to one cylinder of the XZ550.
Before I started, I had a spare TCI unit from an XZ400 so I did my testing with that rather than risk frying my main TCI
With a sparkplug in the CoP and the bike turning over on the starter, I had a very healthy blue white spark from the CoP.
When I put the CoP on the sparkplug in the engine, as the starter was turning over, the starter clutch slipped and caught again with a hell of a bang. (Igniting before TDC?) Then a few turns later the engine ran.
I guessed that the timing of the spark wasn't right (or that there were multiple sparks) or maybe I had hooked up the LT leads round the wrong way. So I swapped the LT leads over but got the same result.
Happily the bike started as normal (without any bangs) when I reverted to OEM running again.
So, The trial worked, but it didn't quite work the way I hoped. The guys on the R1 forum say that the spark at the CoP is triggered by a negative (earth) pulse from their ECU.
So can some Guru tell me which terminal of the CoP would equate to the Orange lead on the XZ OEM coils.
The two wiring schemes seem to go something like this. (But electrics do my head in - I could be wrong)
XZ Positive from TCI is Red, this becomes Red and White from the connector to the OEM coil.
XZ "trigger" from TCI is black or grey (depending upon which cylinder) and becomes Orange from the connector to the OEM coil
R1 Positive from ECU is Black and Red directly to the CoP
R1 "trigger" from ECU are various colours depending which of 4 cylinders it feeds, directly to the CoP.
Quote from: injuhneer on August 16, 2020, 11:42:32 AM
... Tombstone, Arizona...
Ah, so you guys are from, or spend/have spent time near Tombstone. :-) If ever I get some sudden urge to visit the US, Tombstone will be right at the very top of my e
xztremely short list of places to see. The other on the list will be Charlotte, as I was once offered a job there as a photographer for the Gazette but forewent it. I got a job offer from Japan at almost exactly the same time and went there because it was TOTALLY different to Australia and the USA.
lololol The world really is quite a small place, so don't be too surprised if you're in Tombstone one day and someone with an Aussie accent taps you on the shoulder and asks; "Your name Mike?"
Cheers :-)
Mike
Quote from: pinholenz on August 18, 2020, 07:38:24 AM
the hottest place in world, Death Valley, reached its highest temperature in 100 odd years....
So if it's the same temperature that it was 100 years ago, does that mean that temperatures aren't rising?
I had a scope on my TCI the other day, and it's far from the clean square signal you read about in the books. I wonder if the lower resistance coils are false discharging.
Quote from: Prophet Of Doom on August 19, 2020, 07:42:12 AM
Quote from: pinholenz on August 18, 2020, 07:38:24 AM
the hottest place in world, Death Valley, reached its highest temperature in 100 odd years....
So if it's the same temperature that it was 100 years ago, does that mean that temperatures aren't rising?
lololol Blo0dy good question!!! lololololol
"Lies, damned lies, and statistics"And just to keep things 'on-topic'; I changed my plug leads the other day and am happy they won't need changing again for up to another 50,599 years!
Quote from: MikeScoot on August 19, 2020, 07:40:27 AM
Quote from: injuhneer on August 16, 2020, 11:42:32 AM
... Tombstone, Arizona...
Ah, so you guys are from, or spend/have spent time near Tombstone. :-) If ever I get some sudden urge to visit the US, Tombstone will be right at the very top of my exztremely short list of places to see. The other on the list will be Charlotte, as I was once offered a job there as a photographer for the Gazette but forewent it. I got a job offer from Japan at almost exactly the same time and went there because it was TOTALLY different to Australia and the USA.
lololol The world really is quite a small place, so don't be too surprised if you're in Tombstone one day and someone with an Aussie accent taps you on the shoulder and asks; "Your name Mike?"
Cheers :-)
Mike
I am originally from Indiana. I have lived in Indiana, Ohio, Nebraska, Utah, Arizona, California. Also lived outside the USA in the Carrribean on occasion. My father was a field service engineer who specialized in power generation (steam turbines). We moved quite a lot. Our climate here at 4600ft is mild compared to Tucson and Phoenix. Flagstaff is more like northern California.
I suppose I am an adopted Arizonan. Lots of wide open space to ride the roads here but I do miss the twisty roads of Indiana and Ohio.
Thanks POD. Yes that might well explain the false discharge. However since it was a not-so-pretty jury rigged connection, other anomalies may yhave also crept in. Theres no way around it but to spend a bit of time doing the job properly with soldered connections.
However, a bit more research on the R1 wiring front shows that the common wire from the R1 ECU goes to the Left Hand terminal when looking into the connector of the Coil on Plug. I will follow suit with the common wire from our TCI
If you want to have a play yourself, GoodParts has a pair of CoP's and a loom. My friend up here is quite excited about the potential of reducing weight on his classic racer using the CoP setup instead of OEM coils.
BTW, why do our North American cousins always say "soda" when they talk about solder on Youtube?http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/Smileys/default/angel.gif
Quote from: injuhneer on August 19, 2020, 09:50:30 AM
I am originally from Indiana. I have lived in Indiana, Ohio, Nebraska, Utah, Arizona, California. Also lived outside the USA in the Carrribean on occasion. My father was a field service engineer who specialized in power generation (steam turbines). We moved quite a lot. Our climate here at 4600ft is mild compared to Tucson and Phoenix. Flagstaff is more like northern California.
I suppose I am an adopted Arizonan. Lots of wide open space to ride the roads here but I do miss the twisty roads of Indiana and Ohio.
Isn't your neck of the scrub where Zane Gray (world's first author to become a millionaire - ~100 years ago!!!) researched and wrote a lot of his books?
The roads where you are are probably a little similar to our roads on the Western side of the Great Dividing Range. Our terrain there is pretty flat and soil quality is usually not too good. Also tends to be pretty low in rainfall when compared to the Eastern side of the range. Technically, 70% of Australia is desert. It can be a bit of a trap for unwary tourists. I remember there was a period a few years ago when tourists, mainly from Germany, would hire vehicles in Adelaide and charge off to explore the outback. Many were never seen alive again.
Yep Zane Grey hung out in the 1920's in the Bay of Islands, at the other end of the North Island from me. He made New Zealand famous for its big game fishing. Where we are its Trout fishing country. There's a short history here: https://www.bay-of-islands.co.nz/history/zane-grey/
Jeez, I never knew he was into fishing. His books are great reads. Nothing too fancy, just good hero and villains yarns - usually with a bit of female intreague thrown in. I had never read much fiction at all until one day in Japan when my printer ran out of ink to print news to read over lunch. All I could find was one of his books and loved it. Read many others of his in very quick succession after that.
Apparently he was a dentist by trade.
Quote from: pinholenz on August 20, 2020, 12:49:01 AM
BTW, why do our North American cousins always say "soda" when they talk about solder on Youtube?http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/Smileys/default/angel.gif
Soda is a drink or a compound. Pronunciation here is more like saw-der. When you add regional dialect to it then you may here sah-da, saw-da, sah-dah, etc. The L is not pronounced or is weak.
My understanding of this is that the L is an artifact of the re-latinization of words in the 15th century. Middle-English was souder. The L was put back in along the way the but the pronunciation with a soft/no L stuck.
So customary older pronunciation is the cause. The reason? Who knows. ;-)
Quote from: Prophet Of Doom on August 19, 2020, 07:42:12 AM
I had a scope on my TCI the other day, and it's far from the clean square signal you read about in the books. I wonder if the lower resistance coils are false discharging.
Speaking of scopes. I have been looking at the small digital scopes. I am thinking of picking one up to keep in my toolbox. I have read reviews on them and I think that for most repair tasks one would do the job.
There are loads of them on Amazon. One can be picked up with probes and simple signal generator for very little money.
Well, I would love to report that my experiment with the Coil on Plugs (aka stick coils) was a roaring success as an alternative to standard coils.
Regretfully, after sourcing the proper connectrions for the R1 plugs and wiring it all up nicely, it still misfired on both of my TCI's. (Note, however that I tried it out on just one cylinder. This may have upset the TCI? Who knows?)
In principle the CoP coils should work. But until I get clear information from the original adopter in Germany about his setup, I haven't got the electrical knowledge, nor corresponding gear, to pursue this line of experimentation further.
Sigh. Back to basics.