Running a 1983 Vision with the factory fairing.
When I do the cold start, I leave the throttle closed and the choke on. Then, I hit the starter button for a series of short cranks. I assume that fuel is being pulled in then. Then the engine will start to burble and I leave the choke on. Warm up is a consistent process. The temp gauge goes up and we're ready to run.
I used the Vision to pick up something from the grocery store and one other stop and go. Obviously, the engine was at running temperature. When I got back to the garage, I stopped the motor. Then I tried a restart. The Vision wouldn't start. Is there something I can do to get the Vision to restart after running?
Could be several things. My '83 was consistently hard to start when warm until I discovered that it would start if I left it on the center stand. Never did find out why and eventually just changed out the carbs.
I would first look into your starter. They are known for oil getting into them and then they don't work as well especially when hot. They draw more juice and can draw the voltage down to where the ecu won't fire.
The seal in the nose of the starter is the culprit and will need replaced with a newer double lipped seal with a tensioner spring around the lip. Clean all the oil out of the starter and shine up the brushes and commutator.
A good battery is a must as well as shiny clean connections on all the high amperage connections
The other thing that comes to mind is we have an accelerator pump on the carbs and you can flood the bike by twisting on the throttle. Once warm they don't need all that richness and will be hard to start.
Hi Jefferson - I'll have to check my service manual. I found this online.
I'll have to check where the starter 'lives'!
https://www.cheapcycleparts.com/oemparts/a/yam/50042488f8700209bc787e73/starter-motor
I see the Haynes has a better section than the Yamaha service manual. I'll pull the starter motor and check it out.
Be prepared to loose a good bit of oil as the starter sits below the oil level. The seal can be had from any bearing supply house. Just need the measurements with id and od the most important. the width can vary some.
That link is for the starter clutch, not the starter. It is shown at the lower left, but only for reference.
"The seal in the nose of the starter is the culprit and will need replaced with a newer double lipped seal with a tensioner spring around the lip. Clean all the oil out of the starter and shine up the brushes and commutator."
Oil seal part # 4G0-81847-00-00. Yamaha says they are not available. Any replacement parts around?
I removed the starter but did not get a flow of oil. I didn't remove the Left/rear end of the starter. Should I pry it out? Are there any hardware fasteners that need unscrewing?
Here's what came out of the starter motor. The commutator cleaned up well. There was a bit of oily slime on outer sides.
More pictures of the starter....
The outside of the face plate has some marks.
Where is the other gear? There should be 2 small gears, not just one.
Quote from: fret not on April 16, 2021, 03:15:48 AM
Where is the other gear? There should be 2 small gears, not just one.
It's still in the nose, in the first photo.
The seal you need to replace is in the nose of the starter which is still in the case. There shouldn't be those marks on that plate either. By the lack of a quantity of oil the seal may be doing ok, but I would replace it for good measure as long as you are there.
Quote from: jefferson on April 16, 2021, 09:01:09 AM
The seal you need to replace is in the nose of the starter which is still in the case. There shouldn't be those marks on that plate either. By the lack of a quantity of oil the seal may be doing ok, but I would replace it for good measure as long as you are there.
Jefferson - Can I just pull on the starter nose to remove it?
Yes, just pull it out. If need be you could use a screwdriver in-between it and the case.
And that's when the engine oil comes out.
Quote from: Walt_M. on April 17, 2021, 07:04:52 AM
And that's when the engine oil comes out.
Hey Walt! Yes, it did! Not many miles on my last oil and filter change. The oil was fairly pristine. Jefferson - I didn't use a screw driver. I used my large Craftsmen lift lever and a dead blow hammer! WHACK!
I went to my local dealership for parts. 35C-81844-00-00 will be coming in from the Yamaha US warehouse.
4G0-81844-00-00 will come from Yamaha in Japan. A few years ago I worked on a Kawi EX250. Some of the parts came from Japan, not a US warehouse as usual. That took awhile, but I got them.
The parts guy gave me three US dealers that are listing on the Yamaha parts data base as having the O ring for the nose of the starter, 4G0-81847-00-00. I called Dutchess Recreational Vehicles in Poughkeepsie, NY. Their parts man will be shipping the O ring.
These things aren't cheap. But, I can spec the dimensions and see if a 'bearing shop' can cross over into standard sizes that will be a lot less expensive. I'll add a pic of this thing.
Today, I will clean up the oil stain behind the starter's spot. Then, we wait!
So far so good! Thanks for helping me keeping my head screwed on.
You will need to remove the circlip that holds the gear on and remove the gear. Then the gear can be removed so you can press the shaft out of the bearing and seal. Bearing comes out so you can remove the seal and replace it with a new one.
Quote from: jefferson on April 17, 2021, 09:47:20 AM
You will need to remove the circlip that holds the gear on and remove the gear. Then the gear can be removed so you can press the shaft out of the bearing and seal. Bearing comes out so you can remove the seal and replace it with a new one.
I thought the seal is the O ring in the picture above.
I have the nose and the gear sitting gear spline up, with some 3 in 1 oil on top. The 3in1 hasn't leaked through. The bearing feels fine. Is there another seal in there that can be replaced? If it doesn't leak, can I leave it as is?
The oring keeps oil from leaking on the ground. The seal keeps the oil out of the insides of the starter and is a common issue with these starters as they sit below the level of the oil. I would definitely replace the seal. The oring should be fine with a little silicone smeared on it.
I have even had this happen on my 78 XS 750 where the starter sits up high behind the cylinders. If it sat for a little bit after running down the road it would crank, but not start. It even cranked at normal speed, but wouldn't start unless you bumped it. Turned out to be the seal was letting oil by and gunking up the starter. I guess enough oil was getting slung off the gears to get up there and through the seal. Guys on that forum were just telling people to clean the starters out and shine things up. The trouble with that was it addressed the symptom rather than the cause. I let them know about the cure.
The O-Ring is a standard metric size - I don't recall which but you should have no trouble finding one for a few $
The seal is a radial oil seal 20x35x6 mm if you know a SKF supplier then part number SKF563017
Those skuff marks on the plate are caused by the bearings being slogged out. They need replacing and that probably means the others do also.
A starter repair kit includes these and everything else you'll need for $50
New Starter Repair Kit Yamaha Xz550R Vision 1982--1983 414-54048 Rbk-38 Ys-11 | eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Starter-Repair-Kit-Yamaha-Xz550R-Vision-1982-1983-414-54048-Rbk-38-Ys-11/363300170185?epid=10026311865&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item549660a9c9:g:MVEAAOSwnXJgMgpX&amdata=enc%3AAQAFAAACkBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%252Fn%252BzU5L90Z278x5ickkBSh1VzQSTzkTiSV5EE%252FHQVQer7eXbBpazZJJTOpm34420a8OtUeJos7m3u7Pmq7vTHWRLiUJKDTYQDKqD%252F%252BrHFFlo90UM10ls%252B3VA7Rhz4dnebdK5MDfDqiia%252FPmxwdcWxFUKNczvffWCuAxiF87eFL9M8dI5kqp2CRU9tghkILM7PzoQ9xDu3ZD9k0YR010qHmMZ2bkD1wOVgUNu41wuX5udzXC0jop7YnzlUiIRGGqYBqEkrCyNkE4YkIbPWkZybqndsVfLjDlyn82lEbptTRolpryl3bpQPgjVPWDzaMarYNG16fAd29qArb1pCRgYj1mWHDE0ecNLxQakHCPV7Qaif0chBGtjEeYSf9lVFKMcNnCmIq1bz6AUffWQwItXsTls3Q1ARmSvbM1n7FVGLmgCArzoCj%252F8EuGD8Ayt47kojtzXmZCG5FA00v1JqB3XvybMarES3pNWMN1nAYAJ%252FBKH53gabATd0ABMSBKtmy5E5l73IgHJV%252FUnXZQORYPAPigZlvy5ZZ3Na%252BGHTqZyDNsd03qR%252B0thT%252BhdN1gOCzFzbUGDBEFpKpFsPB3WCK6aVhh5wZjhlFghDGERG3W4ew9bSCubo8ArK5U%252BrWgk26DTGppJ%252B1x0BpUFLXscrFwcNWkFfkQCoV10H4iYWisK5rgMUOlKTIdrVuIewIETQ6UDYVebh%252F9dSMBIjk63ax2gDZTrIC1TSDwQQ5NdG7t5XVWGzJiyAXP7rCnhhNBEuNFcsZeffogMMspfGVjG3H%252FaJgS4HzYP%252B8JMbMHqMMOcquWiLMxmuhrSoNZBQQPeqoB4dotozkwQg5wKhjbVhjq%7Ccksum%3A3633001701853af1b5f406984712b4b7ea7530c78520%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2334524)
Thank you, Jefferson and POD!!
I feel much better now!
I'll take the nose and bearing to shop with a hydraulic press to get the bearing pressed. It supported it and tried a dead blow hammer.... no go. A real press should work fine.
The eBay kit is ordered from Minnesota. It's good to get something from the US. It will take days not months to get here!
I feel better now than I have in awhile. I got my Vision in a more or less restored condition. Absolutely excellent. But....I got after mostly electrics: regulator/rectifier, stator, fuse box, coils, starter relay, LED headlight... plus adding farkles. Plus, a better thermostat! There remained one problem. Sometimes the bike didn't like starting after it had been running. I've been carrying a NOCO booster battery. I used it once to get home after stopping at a gas station. After this solution, I'm hoping to finally have a reliable bike.
So, does this mean the difficult starting issue is solved by having a better battery? :police:
You don't need a hydraulic press. A bench vise and a socket will do it just fine
Quote from: Prophet Of Doom on April 19, 2021, 03:18:58 AM
You don't need a hydraulic press. A bench vise and a socket will do it just fine
Got it!
Will do!
Quote from: fret not on April 18, 2021, 05:41:38 PM
So, does this mean the difficult starting issue is solved by having a better battery? :police:
From my experience -
I rode enough to warm up the Vision. I stopped and got gas. It didn't want to start. I didn't want to kill the battery. I attached my Noco battery booster. I got it started. Yes, the extra boost of juice coming from the battery got the bike started.
I don't want to keep attaching the Noco though.
I got the nose apart. I had no idea what I was going to see.
The back of the bearing had on it: SC 20 35 5.5.
Is that a size standard?
Quote from: Prophet Of Doom on April 18, 2021, 07:30:50 AM
The O-Ring is a standard metric size - I don't recall which but you should have no trouble finding one for a few $
The seal is a radial oil seal 20x35x6 mm if you know a SKF supplier then part number SKF563017
I couldn't find that part #.
Looking locally, I saw these. The compare function doesn't help me much.
https://www.applied.com/search/?search-category=all&text=20x35x6
Is this one that would work? It's from Motion Industry.
https://www.motionindustries.com/products/sku/00603486
This description says it's good for up to 7 psi. The oil in the sump is not pressurized I assume.
I ordered from Motion Industries. We'll see how they work.
I got the starter ready for installation. I'll have to get the Vision back on the Kendon lift. I couldn't get it done on the floor!
I tried to remove the right front exhaust pipe. I took off the hardware, but the header, where it goes into the lower pipe doesn't want to move.
Going from memory here, but I don't remember taking the exhaust off in order to gain access to the starter. 2 bolts hold the starter in and one bolt for the wire to the starter. Should be pretty straightforward.
I put the Vision back on the Kendon lift. I was able to install the starting motor. Afterwards I saw I left out one of the two washers on the electric side.
It cranked well and started. I did a ride and came back to the garage. It re started. A few minutes went by and I wanted to do a start to check the oil. It didn't fire. I waited a few minutes more and it started again alright.
I'll just have to wait now and then, it looks like.
Thanks, for the help!