Most of us have agreed with the diagnosis that burning out stators is an issue of overheating. We have discussed where that overheating occurs, electrical connections, R/R, engine oil temps, etc. There are many related issues that have been solved here in the discussion of this topic. But we all know that none of the issues directly provide the solution.
I believe that progress has been made toward the answer even recently with Lucky's oil cooler to address the issue. Nevertheless, the problem still remains of getting oil to the stator. It is isolated from engine oil due to engine design, therefore oil does not cover it to provide the necessary cooling effect.
I would like to bring up the "drilled crankshaft bolt" solution metioned some years ago by George Young and others. George is the only one who actually tried this fix (that I am aware of) and I am curious if there are some results. This is a fix employed by Yamaha on their Ventures back in 84 as they had trouble with burning out stators. I have a Venture myself and looked over this fix to see how it works. I believe Jason has mentioned this at some time in the past as well. The Venture has a very small hole and it really pumps out the oil into a reservoir in the left engine case and then splashes it back over the inside of the rotor.
It seems the Venture uses a washer with the drilled bolt to hold back the oil in a reservoir and then allows the crankshaft bolt to hit the oil as it escapes the chamber and sling it back over the inside of the flywheel rotor (as near as I can see). The Vision could use this method as well with the addition of a small washer to control the escape path of the oil. There have been statistics posted here on oil temp and stator temp and the oil is generally much cooler than the stator by maybe as much as 100 degrees F (don't take my word for those numbers). This being the case and many other machines using the same stator but lasting much longer, most likely points to the necessity of solving the Vision engine design problem by getting oil on the stator for cooling.
Now, I am on my third stator and got 15,000 km (or 9000 mi) on the first and about the same on the Rick's replacement (4 years of running for the last one). Both stators ended their lives tragically after some hot runs on hot days or long rides. They will be fondly remembered. The flaming of a stator is a cumulative effect so you cannot necessarily connect it to the events of your last usage, but often you can see the straw that broke the camels back. If your stator goes longer you are lucky, most of us are not.
R/R's can cause issues but they are not the culprit. Each time I burn a stator the R/R has been totally fine. I have changed it but there is nothing wrong with it when hooked up, therefore the R/R demons are probably not there. Again, many bikes use our R/R and they don't experience the same degree of problem.
Soo.... I am looking into drilling a bolt, but need to find the specs George used and some info on how much oil pressure we can spare on the Vision. If anyone else is interested in the "trial by error' give me a shout. This could be the last frontier of exploration before we all just accept the inevitable fact of our Vision's lot in life. It has become a "baptism of fire" that you are not a true Vision owner unless you experienced the burning of a stator. Imagine what life would be like if a Vision stator actually lasted.
My appreciation to many good comments made over the years as I have read them attentively and they provide the evidence of the problem. There is nothing new to know about our Visions, but there is something that has conveniently eluded us on this stator issue. My recent brooding over a totally crisp stator reminded me that we need to throw a little olive oil in the pan to keep things from burning when we crank up these Visions.
Cheers to all!
Louie ;)
well, as luck would have it, I may be able to give some insight on how well the oil cooler is helping the stator.
my pesky little oil drip is morphing into a 50 cent puddle and I've had enough. I'm going to pull the cover tonight, install the cometic gasket and reseal the grommets.
I put close to 3,000 miles on since May 1 so the stator should be completely baptized.. I'll let you know.
We do still get burned stators and each time I wonder exactly what mods has that person done. I stupidly ignored the prevailing advice of the forum when I first got my V and it wasn't long before I had a burned stator and R/R to deal with. Immidiately after I went though the soldering and relocating process and for the better part of 10k miles (since rougly Oct. '04) my charging system has been fine.
So have other people that have relocated their R/Rs had stator failures? What about soldered connections? CPU fans? It's hard to judge what has been effective since whenever someone gets a burned stator they either seem to be running an unmodified system, or they don't mention which mods have been done. Knowing statistically what helps can narrow down the most effective solution, and could stop us from continuing to stab in the dark after an effective solution has actually already been found.
Comming back to the oil squirter idea though :p I always wondered why not come in from the outside? Drill in through the side case on the inside of the stator, and place a squirter there, then run hardlines along the outside, like maybe hard brakelines from a car. That way you completely avoid the flywheel and you don't have to modify any of the internal oiling systems. You could feed off the oil pressure sensor port on the bottom, or even better if you're running an oil cooler you could feed off the return line.
Quote from: Night Vision on August 08, 2006, 02:17:07 PM
well, as luck would have it, I may be able to give some insight on how well the oil cooler is helping the stator.
well, my luck sucks.... I'm not going to be able to dive into the oil leak / stator peek-a-boo until I find out why I'm
not charging >:(
rode to work today.... SmokeBomb was running a little funny.. didn't think much of it... spent the day thinking I was going to go after the case leak when I got home....
rode home... felt kinda sluggish ??? was the headwind that strong?....nope....
I'm not charging :'( :'( :'(
I've had times when the system wasn't charging at my normal 14.6 at idle... but then after shutting it off, or later on it would come back to normal..funny... I can tell when the bike wasn't charging just by the way it ran
the R&R (relocated) on the peg was friggin hot to the touch too... I should have checked how hot it was when it was charging normal.... but this was HOT
time to snip and trouble shoot... hope I can sort it out before OnRov on Saturday... I have a spare from deck bike... it does work...but the backside is cracked by the wires and I was only going to use it for trouble shooting..
i'm going to go in reverse order here.
Night Vision, if it seemed to not charge occasionally after riding, stopping, riding, stopping, etc, you may want to look at the kill or ignition switches, or somewhere in a similar circuit..
Extent, i've studied the oil system pretty extensivley, & one thing is for sure, you cannot tap off any section of the oil sysytem for spalsh cooling except at the end of the system where it would splash into the pan anyway. that may well be the crank bolt (do we even know if the crank is properly drilled for this? i'll have to find & check my notes...) so it may as well be internal...
canadianlouie, since soldering & relocating my R/R i haven't had a problem, & the oil cooler came later. unfortunatly i don't really keep track of milage, & don't really have a memory for it anyway, so i can't tell you how long it's been on, but it's been something like 4 or 5 years since my last burned stator.
i can tell you, since you were asking about oil pressures, pre cooler, & on dino juice, on a hot day the oil pressure would drop as low as 10 psi when the oil was beat up & ready to be changed (& i seriously beat up the oil, i will normally run thru a set of twisties at 7-9K rpm) with the oil cooler & synthetic blend, my oil pressure only drops to about 22psi when the oil is old.
normally on an average day on a 20 mile run to work, my oil pressure ranges between 40-60 psi. 60 psi is the dumpback point according to the manual, & mine actually dumps back at about 58 psi idling at a light it never really gets below 30 psi.
hth, --Lucky
Quote from: Lucky on August 08, 2006, 11:00:08 PM
Night Vision, if it seemed to not charge occasionally after riding, stopping, riding, stopping, etc, you may want to look at the kill or ignition switches, or somewhere in a similar circuit..
don't mean to veer the thread, and I will get to fixing the oil leak / take a look at the stator and report back....
..... but it's more like....
works great for weeks/months... bites once in awhile... I check it at least once a week
check this out and see what you think....
was not fully charging tonight, probably this morning too. got home... reading right around 12.5 volts... bike running rough like I said... headlight dim... volts slowly going down to 12.3
unhooked battery, hooked back up... same thing 12.3v..
took battery out and put in on trickle... jumper cabled leads to spare car battery.... she's pumping close to 13.5 back into big battery and going higher!!! WTF ?
Put vision battery back in... she's charging back up again... take her out for 20 miles.. runs great... charging fine. I just went out and started it... climbs back up to 14.7 like usual..
It almost seems like it needs to be "reset". without snipping the wires, I can't run the fault chart, but my gut feeling is that the regulator needs to be recified
Extent, I considered the same exterior option when I first looked, but as Lucky has described, it makes more sense to use the internal oil passage path if it is available and it is there.
Fortunately, the oil path does go through the crankshaft since the starter clutch gear requires lubrication from a pressure feed and the flywheel bolt seals off the end of the passage (there is a hole in the crankshaft and a brass bearing with oil passages in the starter clutch gear to hold the pressure). Now, I would want to confirm that is pressure fed, but I can't imagine that design not being pressure fed, however, something to confirm. I would be interested in another view on that point. I am not sure if the manual tells us that detail.
Therefore, we have an (assumed) internal feed that just needs to be directed through the bolt and into an appropriate reservoir so that it will be picked up by the bolt head and transferred back into the flywheel where it should provide an oil bath for the stator. At the moment, the stator is virtually oil free since it is completely covered by the flywheel and the oil level is way below the flywheel. This is very similar to the XVZ1200 which to aid cooling, Yamaha drilled the bolt and provided a washer to hold the oil back until it could be picked up by the crankshaft bolt head and flung inside.
It is hard to determine how the oil acts when it goes into the flywheel but at least it would be bringing oil into contact wiith the stator and allowing some cooling effect to take place.
The risk factor is diverting too much oil from the system. In other words, how big can we make the hole assuming the bearings and top end can handle the slight decrease. It may be that an oil pressure test before and after will give some idea of the bleed off effect an extra orifice will provide.
As I mentioned earlier, George Young did this several years ago but he sold his Vision in 2003. I send an email to him to see if he sold it modified and if it is still around and the size of the orifice he drilled.
The oil cooler idea would really have a serious effect on the stator cooling if we could get the oil to the stator. At the moment I am sure that it is helpful but maybe not as effective as it could be.
I will mention that I have done all the modifications years ago (4-5) and the stator lasted only this long. I did have a battery go bad during that time which could have had an adverse effect, but I do not think most of what we have modified seriously effects the stator life. At least not more that chance favors us all (at least some of us, some of the time).
Something to think about anyway,
Louie :-\
Night Vision, it does sound either like a battery with an intermitant cell (disconnecting internaly) or poss an R/R problem.
the question, is how do you load test a motorcycle battery? i have a carbon pile resistor load tester for automotive batterys, but i'm not sure if it applies to bike batteries. this needs to be reserched, and to properly do the tests, the battery has to be good (so it has to be tested first..)
--Lucky
battery was my first gut feeling and I was about to go to Wally World, but after I put the battery back in and it was charging, I didn't. It's an interstate with 3.5 mnths / 3000 mies on it.
I did not know you can have an intermittant dead cell. I don't have a way of load testing it. I do have an old style battery cell analyzer that shows the strength between cells. It'll show if a cell is dead or weak. Problem is the battery is sealed by the flush cap seal strip and I'm not sure if I want to crack into it just yet.
hopefully, she'll not act up again untill after this coming Monday :D In the mean time, I'm looking for a good (spare? or replacement?) R&R. Just might get the Wally Batt too so I have a spare.
I guess I was under the impression that if oil was cooled down we won't cook the stator.
The bolt specs I used are here
http://www.ncf.ca/~ag136/bolt.jpg
It was not conclusive. I made this modification about half way through my 3rd stator, and it failed also.
I've never tried this, but perhaps the solution is to use wire with a coating that can withstand the temperature, instead of the varnish and paint approach. A Vision dream, a stator wound with teflon-insulated wire, and let it heat.
Night Vision,
just an FYI, so you understand a bit more about battery construction:
simplified:
-the battery has 6 cells each, of 2 volts (12 V total)
-each cell is made up of a positive & negitive plate.
-all the positive plates are connected to each other by strips of metal, as are all the negative.
-the strips are soldered to each plate & 'hopscotch' over the opposet polarity plate it's next to.
when the battery is 'under load' that is stressed by a high sudden discharge, such as starting the bike, this can cause the plates/strips to get warm, & heat deforms metal (fatigues it after enough cycles), the solder joints between the strips can weaken (the bikes vibration adds to that) and can cause the electrical connection in the battery to be broken temporrarily, especially under load.
a carbon pile resistor, or 'load tester' creates a controlled short circuit across the battery terminals, 'testing ' the battery. if the voltage of the battery drops below a certain point durring the test, or drops to zero immediatly, the battery is toast.
testing specific cells with the bulb tube tester checks the battery acid's specific gravity of each cell, & is not the test i mentioned earlier.
hope this clears up some confusion.
--Lucky
ya lost me on the load tester, but the intermittent dead cell makes sense.
What I have is not a (bulb jobber) specific gravity tester...
it's a cell analyzer with pos and neg leads that measures volts between the eletrolite (you can't tough the plates with the leads) between cells. it ranges between 0-0.4 volts (dead cell), 0.4-1.6v (discharged), and 1.6-2.2v (charged).
the instructions on the meter say turn headlights on for 1 min. , test with headlights off.
well the load rester does basicly the same thing as turning on the headlight, just more powerfully..cranking the starter with the plug wires removed would be a suitable test, just make sure the meter is hooked up so you can see it. if the voltage drops below 9.5 the battery is on it's way out, or you have charging system issues. recharge the battery & do the electrex test.
My last stator went 50,000 km plus on a totally unmodified system, so who knows? Tho' I lean towards the poor ground on the regulator idea. My bike was an oily one, wouldn't have been a lot of corrosion happening.
One interesting thing would be to put a temperature sensor directly on the stator so an eye could be kept on actual stator temp.
I asked the previous owner of my bike and he told me that over the 10,000? he'd ridden the bike, he checked every connector on the bike regularly and used dielectric grease in and around the connectors, and never had a stator go out. He bought the bike new in '84 as a leftover after some lady pulled out in front of him while he was on his first V. But this may be just overwhelming luck... Lucky even tells new vision owners to clean up all of the connectors on their bikes and he's had a stator burn out.
but who knows... keeping the connectors clean would definitely help.
BlueBass - everytime I read a posting of yours I keep hearing Shaggy in my head :P :D
A little food for thought.....I am new here but old to Visions. I've owned one since 1983 when I was employed at a Yamaha dealer during college. Early to mid 80's Yamaha V engines with oil cooled stators (Vision, Virago, Venture) have known stator failure issues. The issues became pronounced on the Ventures due to the much higher amp loading and all the lights and stuff dresser riders put on their bikes. At one point we were replacing stators in Ventures every few thousand miles before a final fix was affected. The Venture fix was a new Stator coil with upgraded insulation (Epoxy type), Drilled rotor bolt, defector piece, and a piece of wire that acted as a scraper inside the bolt. The drilled bolt is to allow additional oil to reach the stator coil and cool it. The deflector is to direct the oil towards the top of the stator coil. Most failed stator coils in my experience are burned at the top where oil is least likely to splash up there. There was also a wire scraper that went inside to bolt to prevent the hole in the end from getting plugged up. I do not remember what the size of the bleed hole was but it has to be very small to prevent excessive loss of oil pressure to the crankshaft and rod bearings. To my knowledge these mods fixed the Venture problems. Visions and Viragos had fewer stator failures because the electrical systems on these bikes were not required to put out the amps the Venture needed. I have had one Vision stator failure @ 17K and that was after a 700 mile ride on a really hot summer day. I would agree that long rides on hot days contribute to stator failures. The effect of heat is cumulative on the stator. I don't think oil coolers will help that much because the problem is a lack of oil splash on the upper part of the stator coil. The cooling of the vision stator coil is dependant upon the oil splashed on it by the rotor while it is running. If I remember correctly some time around '84 Yamaha improved/changed the insulation on all the oil cooled stators to improve service life. This included production bikes as well as service parts. Seems like I remember discussing this with the Yamaha service rep at the time and his comment was the improved insulation would take care of the problem on Visions and Viragos.
Very interesting reading dequip. About a year ago, I bought one of the improved insulation Yamaha stators on ebay. I have yet to use it as my original is still going ok. The bike has only about 15K on it.
Lucky, can you explain to me why won't Extent's idea of tapping off the oil cooler return line and squirting directly onto the top of the stator won't work ???
seems to me if your motor didn't grenade when the oil pressure dropped to 10 psi when oil was hot and old, and now it's 22 with a cooled syn blend, can there be much harm in sharing a couple of those pounds?
After seeing the difference between synthetic and dino oil temps this weekend, I'll definitely be going to syn or a blend. drive shaft lube also.
Why can't ya tap a bit of flow off the return line, tap a line into case, use a heavier synthetic (say a 20-50) and squirt some love on the stator?
My reasoning, and you may not agree & that's fine, is that the cooler, as i have it installed, is at the very beginning of the oil circuit, just after the pump. it just seems like a bad idea to tap off the oil before it's reached the critical areas of the engine. i'd rather change a stator than a set of bearings....
Hey...I can't argue with good reasoning... I'm just looking for an easy way to cool the top of the stator. It may end up be the crank bolt....
hmmmm..... what about some kind of oil turbulator? kinda like one of those tornadoes you put on a carb to swirl the air?
bolt it on the end of the crank and it could scoop up the cool oil from the bottom of the case and splash it all over the place?
Hey can't argue with bad reasoning ;D oh yeah, btw... patent is pending ;)
edit - crud... L_D says Briggs and Straton already uses a plastic oil slinger... there goes free Visions for eveybody :'( :'(
ok, how about this:
if i remember right, the rotor spins around the outside of the stator. then how about machining some angular grooves inside the rotor, kind of turbine-ish. the groves need only be a couple of hundreths deep, but would pick up oil from the bottom of the case & kind of 'pump' it to the back of the rotor, where the stator is, & help keep it flowing to the top. you'd have to be careful not to whip the oil up though..
Nice diagram. If we look at the oil level in relation to the flywheel I don't think it is close enough to pick up the oil, especially when it running. If we were able to get oil into the flywheel (and that is the current problem) then this would probably channel the oil out as it turns. I am not sure how the flywheel would work with a liquid running around inside. We need some of the college guys to check this out for us. Perhaps we may need a raised groove (this might not be possible because of clearance issues) in order to fling the oil while it is turning around the flywheel as it spins.
If the oil comes from the flywheel bolt it will most likely work back along the inside of the fywheel (as it enlarges) and run up the back and then outwards along the sides of the rotor to be flung against the engine case.
Getting the oil into the case is our problem as only vapor reaches it at the moment. Distributing it evenly around the stator would be fine if it behaved as described although we cannot be sure it is still going to be contacting sufficiently the stator itself. It would do a great job of cooling the flywheel, which no doubt would be a signficant source of radiant heat.
The idea of tapping off the oil pressure switch could supply oil to the top of the stator and then let it run down into the flywheel and be distributed around inside. There is no difference in effect upon the engine oil pressure but the outside line would be more exposed to damage unless well protected. A feed from the oil cooler would be quite sweet for this application. The bottom line is how much oil can we spare from the system and still maintain good oil pressure?
Pressure testing could be done to monitor the result and to see if the pump does keep up with sufficient supply.
I appreciate the viewpoint of dpequip as this is good background info on this situation. I wonder who is actually building the best temperature resistant stator these days? This is definitely the easiest solution if someone would actually do it. It would kill the 'cash cow' that these bikes provide so most suppliers are not really incented to build a lifetime stator although the technology no doubt is around to do so.
Appreciate the good thoughts here,
Louie :)
My first impression with the grooves would be to worry about the ballance of the flywheel. With a smooth interior the oil that makes its way in can easily distribute it's way around the inside of the flywheel, but with grooves wouldn't there be a tendency for it to pool up in a "heavy spot"?
What about setting a squirter with a pressure valve that keeps it closed at anything but near peak pressure? Then when you're at low pressure when idleing you're not sacrificing any pressure from the rest of the system, but when you're at speed and above the factory pressures anyway (I'm assuming a cooler here) the cooling circuit for the stator would open up. If for some reason system pressure drops at all the extra line is automatically cut off to preserve pressure for the rest of the system.
Right before the site crash, I was doing some research into the wiring & epoxy temp. ranges of the stators, and what I came up with is that they typically can withstand temps. of 320-400 degrees (F) I am not sure how hot they get through their typical use, but I am starting to think that the oil is part of the problem. I would actually like to figure a way to separate the stator from oil completely.
Well oils don't damage epoxies, and Lead_Deficiency reports external case temps of only ~180*. Dosen't quite explain how they seem to burn up from the top down either. Keeping the oil away from it wouldn't be too hard though, you could easily make a thin composite shield. If you're worried about corrosion you could do it out of Vinyl Ester resin, but most datasheets I can come across list max temperature of only around 200*, so you're probably better off with a high temp epoxy.
Well, how about this....
Is it possible that the more the bike sits without being ridden, the more chance that the epoxy gets dried out from not having oil on it. If the epoxy gets dried out, it would shrink and then crack, then cause it to fail and burn up. Most stators that I have seen that were fried, were more crispy on the top (less oil contact) than the bottom. My warped sense of reality would make me think that the top dried up and got brittle faster than the bottom. How often have you heard of someone bringing back a Vision from sitting for years and the 1st thing they need to do, after the starter clutch is the Stator?
~MP
Epoxy dosen't need to be oiled, and it dosen't dry out. The R/R is actually encased in epoxy resin, it's really hard to break down.
The problem is not hot oil transferring heat to the stator and causing it to burn out.
The problem is the stator generates heat and doesn't transfer enough of it to the warm oil, the stator's temperature rises, and burns out.
I'm with you on that one George. The internal heat of the stator is the issue, and that is generated by the current flow induced by the rotor magnets. Also, the higher the rpm the higher the AC voltage generated. While it being bled off by the regulator it is still producing over 100 Volts AC at higher rpms. I am not an electrical engineer but I am quite sure there is significant heat being generated by the stator that far exceeds what you can measure in the oil temp or the side cases.
The internal stator heat can only be radiated away by cooling from the oil or oil/vapour environment of the engine. The top of the stator is probably the area that has the least oil contact and therefore tends to become toast first. Someone suggested that some of the epoxies used can withstand 400F well that is a pretty good indicator of how hot the stator can become over time with the gradual build up of wire resistance due to high voltage running through it. These stators have to get so hot they eventually burn through the epoxy insulation and then short out internally.
Therefore, using a wire insulator (epoxy, etc.) that is also a good conductor of heat is part of the solution. I am not certain if anyone is doing a good job with that aspect to specifically meet the needs of our Vision. Enabling cooling of the stator through oil bath is another. This is an engine design issue that at the moment does have an immediate solution.
Louie :(
until an easy solution is found to internally cool the stator, I'm going to try or consider some other methods.
switch to semi or full synthetic to lower oil temps.
research cooling paste?
maybe try to add some fins near the top of the case?
paint the case black?
I have done all the other reccomended mods (new electrosport stator,soldered connections, moved R&R, cleaned connections, added oil cooler)
honestly, I don't even know if my stator is in danger. If it weren't for that pesky oil leak coming and going (I think I gave it to Squid :o ) I would have pulled the case by now and had a look see.
I will be doing that this winter (unless the case starts leaking again >:( )
Just a shot in the dark here but Night Vision mentionned painting the case black... I was thinking along the same lines sort of when this topic opened. Laws in Thermo Physics say that lighter colors and dull surfaces will radiate heat better. A thin flat white layer of HighTemp paint my give us a few degrees in the case. I haven't started with any of the mods yet, but I'm planning on moving the R/R ASAP. (The apartment won't let me work on the bike so I'm looking for a good Butane soldering iron to do the job in the parking lot at the parts store) As for the paint, my only concern would be this... A layer of paint could possibly insulate the case even more no matter what color it is, flat or gloss. Should this be a concern. I don't know how much gain could come out of a different color case either.
BTW This is a great topic that all of us want resolved. Thanks guys for all the suggestions and possibilities. Now we just need some ginea pigs!! :o
I had always heard that flat black actually helps cooling the most, that's why you'll never see a radiator painted white. But that aside I think we're looking for way more than a few degrees here and I don't think any kind of coating on the case is going to significantly impact the problem.
a little more oil in the case might help?
Quote from: Extent on August 16, 2006, 06:24:44 PM
I had always heard that flat black actually helps cooling the most, that's why you'll never see a radiator painted white.....
I'm thinking flat black wrinkle / or golf ball texture ::) would be best for the case
Quote from: Extent on August 16, 2006, 06:24:44 PM
..... I don't think any kind of coating on the case is going to significantly impact the problem.
agreed: after some quick web topic searching...seems that the "cooling paste" [thermal grease] would not be a good idea.
Quote from: Extent on August 16, 2006, 06:24:44 PM
.....But that aside I think we're looking for way more than a few degrees here [and there]
I think all mods combined would add up to a significant decrease in stator temp and maybe premature failure.
... cool what little oil bathes the top of the stator, turn the side case into a heat sink, reduce as much resistance in the electrical system (resistance=heat right?)
as possible....
Who knows?.... I'm only at 3k on a new stator.... (and about 600 miles on the starter solenoid fix btw ;D) and the other mods I've done.... not a long term analysis by any means
Well any kind of paste on the inside on the stator itsself is a bad idea, and it wouldn't be any use on the outside of the case unless you're using it to mount a heatsink. Whether a heatsink (or any other sort of heat dissapator) on the case would be any use shouldn't be too hard to determine. If the case temperature around the stator is hotter than other areas of the case (either farther away on that side or on the right engine case) then we could assume that the stator is contributing that extra heat, and helping to cool the case would then help to cool the stator. If the case isn't much hotter there then it's probably not getting a significant heat contribution, and any additional cooling on the outside isn't going to help any.
As far as coatings go powercoat is the way to go :D. Can you get textured powdercoats?
Quote from: Extent on August 16, 2006, 11:02:44 PM
If the case temperature around the stator is hotter than other areas of the case (either farther away on that side or on the right engine case) then we could assume that the stator is contributing that extra heat, and helping to cool the case would then help to cool the stator.
that's exactly what Lead _Def's readings showed... hottest just above the YICS plate... look at Walt's avatar too.
I wonder if the plate could be replaced with a finned cover? again, not the total solution, just a contribution
[paste would have gone on out side of case, not inside. the thermal paste I found was mainly for computer heat sinking, not the magic cream I was looking for :D ]
ok, I'm starting to like the heat sink idea.... seems cheap and easy..
just gotta find the right size to fit the YICS plate and get some thermal epoxy.
just might end up getting a large piece of extruded sink, cut it to length, throw in a tube of epoxy and sell them to you guys ;D the epoxy would be the expensive part. nice winter project
Quote from: Night Vision on August 17, 2006, 07:43:04 AM
that's exactly what Lead _Def's readings showed... hottest just above the YICS plate... look at Walt's avatar too.
I wonder if the plate could be replaced with a finned cover? again, not the total solution, just a contribution
Well those readings show that it was hotter than the bottom of the engine casing which gets a lot better oil coverage. I'm not sure how much of that heat is from the stator directly, and how much is just soak from the engine in general.
The YICS plate is actually probably the worst place you could put a heat sink, it's loose fitting and right in the middle of the ring of the stator. You'ld get better performance if you mount the sinks around the plate, and closer to the ring the stator slips over.
i have been looking at the share the love idea for a while. a small t fitting just after the oil cooler routed down and back around to the top of stator cover ,drilled and fitted with a "fan tip" nozzle may do the trick. but a few things have to be noted:
this is going to allow oil to by pass the filter ,possibly sending something into the tip and jamming it all up,
this is going to be tricky as there isnt a lot of room to work with in this area (maybe just a single press fitting to dribble oil in?)
failing this, a new stator cover may be hard to locate.
and my last question- would it be possible for this to do even more harm than good- ie , would a liquid oil flow over the stator cause a short circuit or arc point and fry the bike anyway?
i have a empty stator cover in front of me & somewhere i think i have a dead stator & flywheel, but looking at it empty, i think the little timming button, or perhaps just taping a fitting roughly 1" above the top of the YICS plate would work. a 1/8 copper (brass?) oil line like those used for oil pressure guages would work. also those lines are plenty long & coiling the extra line would help cool the oil before it gets to the fitting.
adding a pressure sensitive valve would shut the 'sprayer" off at idle, but when the pressure comes up with revs it would kick in..
needs refinement, but it's a thought.
i'm sure i could find you a tap point after the filter.
couple more thoughts on this idea.
an accelerator pump nozzle is small enough to provide the spray
a simple screw adjustable ball check & spring would provide the 'pressure switch'
there is a 'web' cast into the inside of the cover, i can picture the cooler nozzle in a plate bolted inside one of the squares of one of the webs (all this stuff is tiny)
i'll do some sketches & see if i can make this make sense...
I think going through the YICS plate would be preferable if possible, if just from an availability standpoint. It's smaller and would be a lot easier to make replacements for than the whole side case (for when numbnuts like me break 'em)
Really it would be good if someone would put a thermocouple on their stator just to see how hot it is getting at the top.
Don't worry about oil over the stator, the system is designed to be in an oil filled environment.
found my rotor & set it inside, going thru the YICS plate would only spray it on the crank bolt & rotor hub, it needs to be higher.
i taped the engine case for the oil cooler, side covers are easier to find...
Quote from: Lucky on August 17, 2006, 11:11:03 PM
.......going thru the YICS plate would only spray it on the crank bolt & rotor hub, it needs to be higher.
if the spray hit the crank bolt, you could put an "oil slinger washer" on it. a concave washer with a notch in it to sling the oil.
why is that YCIS plate there anyway?
to turn the engine by hand when checking/aligning the timing marks
What year was the venture's updated stator cooler installed? Could that updated venture flywheel bolt be used to spray the oil ?
if its the same size as the V's could a pressure relief (spring/ball) be placed into the hole before the bolt is threaded in?
IIRC, it's a different size bolt...
I like the 1" above the YICs location Lucky. I think this location targets the top side which gets the least oil and probably has the highest temps. Gravity should bath the rest of the stator as well as the flywheel distributing the extra oil around. Of course, the shortest path would be a line from the oil pressure switch just below the case.
I really like the idea of the pressure valve since one gets a little nervous about bleeding off pressure at the low pressure levels. We could test the pump capacity by checking pressure before and after installing the "stator cooler". The bike may be able to handle it.
You know, when you look into the cover and realize the oil is way down there by the sight glass there is hardly a hope of getting oil inside the flywheel which is 10 stories up. Some of the pre-80's bikes did not enclose the stator but put their rotor inside the stator. Funny, I never remember ever replacing one of those. This allowed the rotor to catch oil from the crankcase and sling it everywhere.
I appreciate your brainstorming on the mechanics of this one Lucky. I think the drilled bolt is not as good as the nozzle targeting the top of the stator. Any oil is probably better, but this is a good start to a feasible design.
Louie 8)
How much room is there between the flywheel and the case/stator? Could you fit somethign like this along the top of the stator, with several small holes drilled into it to distribute the oil more evenly over the whole top surface?
here is a quick drawing of an idea how it would work drilled out of a piece of steel
you could add a port for a "setting guage" after the ball check so you know what pressure it opens (or preset it durring construction)
also, a recessed screw like a pilot screw instead of a "T" handle.
A sheetmetal guard could cover the whole thing. it bolts to the YICS plate screws (both pieces)
pardon my kindergarden drawing & the size, i'm late for work
--Lucky
(http://www.xz550.com/nozzle1.jpg)
quckly, btw,
you could build it to replace the YICS plate but you still need to drill a hole in the cover for the nozzle 2 1/4" or so above the center of the original plate.
the cover i mentioned below could go all the way down to the pressure port below with slots built in for cooling airflow as well.
extent i think there may be no room for your bar, a cover would have to be placed over an assembled stator with putty on it to measure clearance. i could be wrong. my nozzle would only extend into the case 1/8 to 1/4 inch...probably not thicker than that 'webbing'
I started thinking about an old idea I had of water cooling that sidecase.. a water jacket that was hung from the plate you guys are talking about.. I wonder if that could pull enough heat off that case to bring down the temp of the stator dave
Here's another thought, how bought an adapter that let's that case breath to the air box
why not put a ram air scoop on the oil fill plug and vent the air out the timing plug. get a breeze going through there :D if it rains, just put the oil fill and timing plugs back in.
excellant idea, for sure that startor is in a hot box, with no chance of cooling itself (stock)
nope... that was a quick flop >:(
stuck an air filer on a hose, wedged it into oil fill hole, took out timing plug...
too much internal pressure. basically wants to go out both ends. there was some "warm" air coming out, but not hot like I expected.
plus it sounds like a Stanley Steamer :D :D
tell ya what though... that case heats up quick! quicker than the oil. I have a 160 deg. thermostat on my cooler system and that case was way hotter, way quicker than the oil. Case was way hot even before the thermo started to bypass.
back to the heat sinks for now
Hey Lucky, in you diagram for the "stator cooler" would a choke plunger work for the adjustment setting? We would already be using parts of a carb for the nozzle, so... we could draw up some technical drawings and I know a machinist in Roanoke that might be willing to make this thing.
scratch that... you mentioned a pilot screw which would work great.
I brought home some brass stuff from work i'm going to play with, & thinking about it i'm not sure the accel nozzle is big enough. i think i'd like to do this without robbing parts off our carbs, i'd like to find something cheaper & more readily avalable. crimped pipe or something very common...
I see someone thought of "venting" the stator case. This is actuallyquite simple.This is a simplistic approach. Just (1) find a pipe or fitting that connects in place of the oil filler and or timing cover plug. (2) using hose and a K&N vent filter placed vertical...somewhere. Would let heat escape much quicker. I know there is no input of cooler air. Like i said ...simplistic. :P
There is significant crankcase pressure which is normally aspirated through the air cleaner evaporative system which makes venting as you said "simplistic." It would be great if you had enough vacuum to clear out the hot engine gasses to cool the internal environment. Then the addition of an air supply vent for cooling as suggested.
No doubt the increased blowby of older machines would elevate engine temperatures and figure into decreased stator life over the life of a Vision.
Nevertheless, the oil bath is probably the most effective means of dissipating stator heat because of its ability to transfer heat as it contacts the surface. I wonder if certain engine oils do this better than others? I am eager to see what Lucky or any one of our competent engineers come up with.
Louie :-\
Ok here's an idea on how to get oil to the top of the stator. Why not pump it from the bottom to the top of the left side cover. You could use a 2 stroke oil injection pump. Possibly connect it to a 12v motor. I thought about driving it off the engine but I couldn't come up with where to drive it from. 10K rpm is a little too fast for an oil injection pump. It may be a bit tricky mounting it but I'm sure we could come up with something.
We could just drill and tap small fittings top and bottom and just pump it to the top. That way you wouldn't be robbing oil from any other part of the engine.
Dan
Let's think inside the box here for a moment....
My wife has several small fountains around the house. They get plugged into the wall and constantly circulate water from the base to the top of the fountain. What about something like this, hooked to a relay, so when you turn on the ignition, it would start circulating oil. I guess you would need a small electric 12V pump down in the oil pan and a line running to over the Stator/Rotor unit. Other than a pwr and gnd wires coming out of the case, no other modifications. When I was in high school, a buddy of mine had a Pontiac LeMans He had an after market oil circulation pump installed. He would flip the switch 30 seconds before he started the engine. In that 30 seconds, the pump would move oil up into the engine, before it was started. Anyone ever hear of anything like that... and if so, how can we use it with our stators.
ok this is what we do, take off the water pump, use that sealed saft to belt drive a auto style alternator. then we get 12v water pump.
Wouldn't the amount of amps the car alternator puts out cause a problem??? Just I guess. We leave the car turned off when we're jumping off one for that same reason. Then again, maybe Lucky or someone has another chance to tell me I'm wrong and your idea is just crazy enough that it might work!!! ;)
car alternators turn them selfs on and off to regulat the voltage. There are low amp. output ones that would do an excellant job. It would be alot of work getting the waterpump shaft ready, like a bearing put in the case maybe.
If theres room, theres an oil line under the side case, near the stator that could have a T and pressure relief valve installed. It can be seen on the yamaha parts catalog under oil pump or the links below.
http://ca.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/lead_deficiency/detail?.dir=/7f57&.dnm=4ef4re2.jpg&.src=ph&.tok=phvmDZFBpl2FKQuu
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/parts/home.aspx
Hey LD,
That line might be too small to split another from, since it might cause too much of a pressure drop there. However, there is the oil channel in the engine case that goes directly to the oil pressure switch (lower left case just below the stator) which could have a fitting installed which would keep things inside the case. As long as the line could be routed around to the open end of the flywheel and stator. This would be neat and tidy as you are suggesting.
Louie :-\
I haven't seen it but it sounds like a safe spot.
Theres a company from germany that makes high temp varnishes and resins for electrical equipment, their sales rep is checking with the technical director for a better insulator for stators.
I like the idea of cooling the side engine cover where the stator is situated. I also noticed a lot of time how fast this engine cover is heating up well above water boiling temp due to the stator. Unfortunately the cover is very well isolated from the rest of the engine due to the paper gasket wich works as an insulator. Maybee change to another better heat conductive gasket like is used for head gaskets?
But placing cooling fins looks like a nice solution to prevent overheating.
Again we still are trying to find a solution for the problem, not the source of the problem.
The stator is heating up to much due to the type of voltage regulating. Lots of energy is wasted into heat, for what we now are trying to find a solution to better cool the stator. In my opinion the best way is stil to prevent the stator from generating to much heat by changing our R/R from parallel regulating to a self build series/switching regulating, saving more than 100 watts in heat. However....
This is easyer said than done, by this time i have done various testing and researching, and unfortunately everything i have found upto now, is simply to big to fit on the bike, to expensive or not reliable.
We need somobody with more experience than me with this type of high current/voltage power regulating, to help us build a schematic for a series (switching mode) power regulator.