After waiting around two weeks for the rebuild kits, I got a chance to finally tackle them this weekend
Last night I managed to get the carbs out (thanks only to Lucky's advice to BREWSKI that they really
DO come out the left side). Today I tore them down. Most of the adjustments seemed to be standard,
but they were fairly gunky. A few questions to those who've done this before:
1) I was clumsy and managed to crack one of the floats. Any suggestions on how to patch it? Or do I pretty much need to find another set of carbs to cannibalize?
2) I think I found all the service parts, but I can't figure out where the ball bearing in the rebuild kit goes... Hmm.. looking at Lucky's site, it seems that it's underneath the accelerator pump nozzle.
3) Is there any reason to remove the venturis themselves?
4) Is there any reason to open up the fuel pump too? The keyster carb kit doesn't contain the gaskets for it, so I'm leery about opening it up.
5) Where does the pilot fuel jet go?
Steve
Re. Float bowls: many of us must have a few spares.
Re. Fuel pump: never had any problem with them, so my advice is keep it closed.
Re. Venturis: I can't see why you'd remove them
Lou
Steve,
1) I have a spare float for you, pm me & we'll haggle :)
2) yup, under the accel nozzles, there is a trick for getting them out safely (& the floats too) pm me your ph # & i'll call you, it's easier than trying to explane the whole thing..
3) nope, not unless you can wiggle them, then the gasket needs to be replaced.
4) not unless everything else is gunky too, then assume the pump is. it's a seperate kit from Keyster
5) pilot fuel jet goes under the flathead screw under the bottom of the bowls, you need a good, skinny, WELL FITTING screwdriver to get it out. it'll hopefully break free with a *CRACK!* you don't want to round off the slots for it, if you do, then clean it out as best as you can & live with it, or buy a replacement bowl (i have 'em of course)
6) (you forgot #6) install a good quality (read 'sintered bronze') fuel filter between the pump & petcock, don't even THINK of trying to start the bike without one.
--Lucky
I got the accelerator pump nozzles out with a small (3-4 inch) set of locking pliers.
They were almost perfect for twisting them, although they left a little bit of marking
on the brass. (I really love those... I don't remember where I got them,
but they always seem to come in handy when *nothing* else works)
All in all the carbs were pretty gunky, but not really gritty. The bike had a fuel filter
on it when I bought it; I think it's probably worth replacing too, but it did it's job:
all the grit was in the fuel line.. :)
I'm a little bit confused about the jetting. There appear to be two different main jets
for each carb (one on the top inside the throttle body, and one on the bottom left side, accessed
behind a plug). The top was 125 front, 130 rear. The bottom was 130 on both. I've
heard lots of people talk about rejetting, but I had no idea there were two separate jets...
I assume one is actually for the idle circuit or something? The service manual just labels them
both as 'main jet'. I assume they should actually be the same?
Steve
Top jets (pilot air) for the 82 are 130 front & rear. The main jets (on the sides, behind the brass plugs) are two different sizes. 122.5 (f) & 127.5 (r). My dealer replaced the pilot air jets with 135s when he did the carb / airbox upgrade. (before I bought the bike) This is the most common re-jetting done on 82 carbs. This setup works well from about 500ft up to 12,800ft.
H2O
OK H20, so 125/130 should give a little bit richer mixture (right?), which probably makes sense since I'm in the
bay area (sea level and pretty cool). I suppose I should pull the plugs and check them out, too.
BTW: this bike doesn't appear to have the airbox mod:
My plan is to see how well things work after doing thish before adding more complexity to the situation...
Steve
Steve -
The 130s in the pilot air position will decrease the amount of air introduced into the carb circuits. This will create a richer fuel mixture. I know several folks have gone to 135s even in low altitudes - but they also use the modified air box. You can tell if yours is upgraded very easily. Look for a vacuum diaphragm and arm attached to the flapper door in the air inlet to the top of the airbox. One suggested modification for the non-upgraded air box is to epoxy a couple nickels to the flapper door. This slows down the opening of the door & restricts air going to the carbs. Not as effective as the vacuum system but I hear it has a positive effect.
The 130 pilot air jets were factory original. My dealer installed the 135s back when the bike was brand new. I bought it in Steamboat Springs, CO - elevation about 7,000 ft. I now live in Ft. Collins (@ 5,000 ft.) and regularly ride over the continental divide & other mountain passes - all over 10,000 ft. - so I regularly see pretty drastic elevation changes. I'd say to either stay with the 130s or go up to the 135s.
Make sure you have the 122.5 front & 127.5 rear main jets. The different exhaust pipes from each cylinder & the slightly higher operating temp of the rear cylinder are the reasons for the different jet sizes. I've tried going both up & down one jet size in the main jets & it just doesn't run right with anything but the original sizes.
Hope this helps you get your V running better!
H2O
I think I must have typed things in wrong (my notes are back at home)
I think/hope the main fuel jets must were 125/130 and the main air jets were 130/130.
So,
moving fuel jets from 122.5/127.5 to 125/130 makes the mixture richer at all throttles.
moving air jets from 130 to 135 makes the mixture leaner at all throttles.
I'm not sure what the goal of the flapper modifications are: it sounds like the goal is to make the mixture leaner, tho.
I guess I'll first try out the stock configuration and see how well that works. Anybody have any advice for tuning at Sea Level? I doubt I'll ever make it to the continental divide. Probably 5K would be a maximum ( I think that's about the elevation of Yosemite Valley).
Steve
Steve
OK, Im confused now and this may be why my sync was so far off when lucky and I adjusted it. My pilot air jets (top of carbs) are 122.5 front and 127.5 rear and the 130s are on the bottom of the carb. I also have the updated airbox/carbs
I'm almost certain thats the way I have it set up. I'm off work tomorrow, so I'll check it out and post my results.
David
Quote from: DaveTN on October 16, 2006, 05:38:48 PM
OK, Im confused now and this may be why my sync was so far off when lucky and I adjusted it. My pilot air jets (top of carbs) are 122.5 front and 127.5 rear and the 130s are on the bottom of the carb. I also have the updated airbox/carbs
I'm almost certain thats the way I have it set up. I'm off work tomorrow, so I'll check it out and post my results.
David
And it runs!?!
H
2O
Dave unfortunatly, the jets are all the same size, but the 130s go in the top of the carb, the smaller number jets go in the bottom (where the fuel is). I would imagine your fuel mileage is pretty bad.
Yeah,
I'm getting ready to start my nw tank project and will be pulling the old tank...mainly to replace my fuel lines and some vacuum lines. Since I'll have the tank off, I'll pull the airbox too and take the jets out to look at them. I'll let y'all know.
David
you don't have to pull the jets in the airhorn to read them. the #'s are stamped on the top. a jewlers loupe helps though.
Steve & Dave.
This is how the jets go with a mod-ed air box;
122.5 in the bottom of the front carb, 130 in the top.
127.5 in the bottom of the rear carb and the 135 in the top.
then set the front pilot to 3 turns fron lightly seated and the rear to 4&1/4 from lightly seated. Then sync the carbs. This should fix most if not all stumble and idle problems.
Don ::)
I was incorrect... Main fuel jets were 125/130, Main air jets were 130.
So that seems to just be a 'rich' tune.
dminor: my pilot screws were only 2 1/2 turns out... I knew this was
somewhat of a point of contention, so I was sure to track it.. :)
Steve
Quote from: DaveTN on October 16, 2006, 05:38:48 PM
OK, Im confused now and this may be why my sync was so far off when lucky and I adjusted it. My pilot air jets (top of carbs) are 122.5 front and 127.5 rear and the 130s are on the bottom of the carb. I also have the updated airbox/carbs
I'm almost certain thats the way I have it set up. I'm off work tomorrow, so I'll check it out and post my results.
David
Well, I confirmed it and they were mixed up!!
I put a 122.5 in the top front and a 127.5 in the top rear. (see pics)
The lower ones are 130's. Now, how the heck did this thing run and run so well???
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l299/xz550rj/DSCF0075.jpg)
Further update:
I removed the brass plugs and checked the jets on the lower left of the carb. Front was 130 and rear was 135. So if i understand this correctly, the 130 should go in the top of the front carb in the intake and the 135 in the top of the rear. The 122.5 should go in the bottom left of the front carb behind the brass plug and the 127.5 should go in the bottom left of the rear carb behind the brass plug. Correct? ??? ???
David
Quote from: DaveTN on October 17, 2006, 01:48:04 PM
Now, how the heck did this thing run and run so well???
I'm not surpised it ran well.... I've seen one run with a paper towel stuffed in the carb throat ::) 'course it did not run
well :D
like someone said here before... these things (carb settings) are all over the map. By syncing and adjusting the idle screws, you may have balanced it out...
question.... if it runs good, gets good mileage.... why screw with it?
Quote from: Night Vision on October 17, 2006, 04:36:29 PM
question.... if it runs good, gets good mileage.... why screw with it?
It can always run "better"! ;D
(Actually, I tend to agree with you, N.V.)
H
2O
OK, here is what I got and some observations. I changed out the pilot air jets to 130 on both tops. I have a 135 that I can put on the top rear. Should I?
I put the 122.5 front and 127.5 rear pilot fuel behind the brass plugs on the lower left of the carb. I put the tank back on, hooked everything back up, primed the bowls, set the choke on half, gave two quick throttle snaps and it started right up! The idle was a bit rough but the sound is different. It has more of a crisp bark to it...am I immagining that? I went out for a quick ride and the bike seemed more responsive and did not stumble (but my YICS is off the bike at the moment and the hoses are plugged)
Two more questions:
1. do you think I'll have to re-sync the carbs?
2. Should I change the rear pilot air from the 130 to the 135? I only have one 135. And I have the updated airbox.
Man, I feel like a newbie again. :o
David
YES TO 1&2.
Don ;)
so what am I supposed to do with all these extra screws and bolts then?
jk
Quote from: kwells on October 17, 2006, 07:22:12 PM
so what am I supposed to do with all these extra screws and bolts then?
jk
That reminds me!! i saw my dream job this morning..pulled up at a stop light next to a truck that said "National Screw & Bolt"!!!!
yeah, i know, it doesn't answer any carb questions...
Quote from: Lucky on October 17, 2006, 08:19:59 PM
Quote from: kwells on October 17, 2006, 07:22:12 PM
so what am I supposed to do with all these extra screws and bolts then?
jk
That reminds me!! i saw my dream job this morning..pulled up at a stop light next to a truck that said "National Screw & Bolt"!!!!
yeah, i know, it doesn't answer any carb questions...
You obviously haven't seen the "Purdy Bros Erection Co." truck yet. I laugh my head off everytime I see it.
David
Dipped the carbs last night, thanks to a friend of mine. Lord knows the world probably doesn't need another 5 gallon can of highly noxious chemicals, so he helped me get 'em nice and clean. His reaction: 'man those are some BIG carbs'.
He's got an old CB400, an R6, and an SV650, for reference.
Anyway, hopefully I'll get the carbs back together soon (although I think I lost one of the circlips that holds the throttle link on: I hope I can pick one up at OSH...). I was starting to feel a little nervous, but I figure after hearing DaveTNs story that I can probably screw it up pretty bad and still get something that runs.. :)
Steve
OK, they're back together and on the bike... I synched the carbs and started setting the idle....
It took me the longest time to figure out that the reason it wouldn't idle without the choke on was
because I needed to adjust the idle... (duh...)
I attempted to adjust the pilot screws, but the front one sure doesn't seem to do much (How am I
supposed to find the midpoint of the smooth idle range if it idles roughly *everywhere*?) and I
can't figure out how to get to the rear one without taking the carbs off... I assume there's a special
tool that gets around the fact that the rear engine block is in the way of getting to the screw?
I'm itching to go for a ride now: I didn't really get a nice idle before I started to smell dinner.. We'll
see what tomorrow brings.
Steve
Steve,
Bend a thin screw driver. ( It's not the rear engine block in the way, just the rear engine upper mount. ) take out the bolt it will help, just put it back before you ride. The frame flex is bad enough with out the mount being loose.
Don ;)
OK, I managed to find a long thin screw driver that I could adjust the rear cylinder with.
Success! I actually rode around the block a coupla times (for the first time in like 3 years on the V).
After patiently syncing, adjusting the idle, synching, adjusting the idle, I did (eventually) get to the point
where the pilot screws had a noticeable effect. I failed to pay attention to exactly what the adjustment
was, but it was definitely further out on the rear than the front.
I found that it actually seemed to run better (on the sidestand, at least) if I actually left it slightly out of
sync (with the rear pulling a little bit more than the front). In particular, with the sync exact at idle, revving the
engine often resulted in it almost dying when returning to idle. I'm speculating that the larger mains/ higher
airflow on the rear at speed might result in an overly lean mix returning to idle on the rear cylinder (more air velocity when
the throttle closes = more air mixed with the same amount of fuel from the pilot screw). This was one of the things
my V always did before that really annoyed the **** out of me. I peeked inside the airbox: no flapper at all.
combined with the odd jets and the dual front disks makes me think I have a bit of an odd beast.
Anyway, it seemed to ride pretty well... definitely goes like a bat out of hell with the throttle open (which I remember),
and tends to bog down sometimes in the midrange before taking off like a bat out of hell (which I also remember).
I'm guessing this is the oft-mentioned 'stumble': If I had an instrument cluster, I'd tell you what RPM it happens at. :)
I also feel like the front end is really soft and a little bit squirrely: I suppose I'll have a go at replacing the fork oil, in addition
to all the other fluids since it was sitting so long.
After finally getting the V running, I'm feeling a little soft for my wife's CB450.... It may not have the looks or the power
of the V, but at least it's somewhat predictable. :)
Steve
I snagged a picture of the 82 keyster carb kit. The 83 kit is up on Lucky's site.
I thought this might be useful to someone digging into the 82 carbs for the first time.
Top row : Accelerator pump, fuel inlet, accel. pump spring, pilot screw spring
Second row : pilot screw, pilot screw and drain screw ORings, ball and weight for accel pump nozzle, washers for pilot screw, main jet plug, and pilot jet plug, gasket
Bottom row : pilot fuel jet, replacements for front main jet (122.5), rear main jet (127.5) and main air jet (130), and the drain screw.
And another bit of newbie advice: after you take the top of each carb off, *before* doing anything else, remove the floats, which are easy to break... :) (Thanks for the replacement Lucky... )
Steve
Another tip:
be super careful when pulling the carb float pin, those posts break also. i've mailed out a few carb tops too...
In reading through this post in it's entirety,
I have just one question:
Who am I mailing my carbs to for a rebuild ;D ?
Probably not that bad to do but the thought of little spring loaded pieces flying out and into the abyss (where everything I drop goes) scares me ;)
Is there any way to sort of douche out the carbs without dissasembly? Soak, shake, tip, turn, repeat :o ?
Scott, where are located.
Scott_Mc
ROV Newbie
Posts: 12
Boston, MA If you're local, look me up!
NEVER MIND!
I can do it for you, i've done dozens of them. you may want to do it yourself though, they are not that hard. plus you'll have the satisfaction of knowing your carbs inside & out. the cost of shipping, parts (well you'll need them anyway..) and what i charge (i think i'm expensive, others don't) is more than what you'd spend to DIY, but if your all thumbs, i don't mind.
email me & we'll talk.
BTW, to those of you who emailed me & are waiting for info on parts etc from me, i've been crazy busy, i'll get all the info to you soon, i haven't forgotten, things should ease up in the next week or so...
--Lucky
Nope, not all thumbs at all but if they are not rebuilt correctly, you gotta pullem back out takem back apart..... with present priority of projects, I simply don't have the time. They have never even been off of the bike. I'm the second owner and as I said in an earlier post, owned it since it was a few years old. All of about 13K on it! It was running went it made its trip down the basement stairs, but on one cylinder. Battled the tank for a couple years prior and it finally got the best of me. I was hardly riding it and had other things going on so I said "see-ya". I know better but I never even drained the tank(pathetic, yes, feel free to flame me, I deserve it!!)! EEK, I'm afraid to even look in there :D.
I have a complete parts bike, like so complete that I don't want to part it! Biggest problem with it is that it's been stored poorly (what the heck does it take to simply cover something!!) The tank on it might be OK but the ignition key does not seem to want to operate the tank. Not sure if it is the original and just stuck but it feels more like the wrong key. I have some info for the p/o and need to maybe drop him a note.
A tank ended on eBay yesterday. Brand new and it went for cheap? Did anyone else see that? Legit you think? For that kind of money (I don't recall excatly, about 140 to your door) I'd seriously consider a new tank. I did the Kreeme thing to mine and I would not do it again. If I can get it to run right off of a jug, then I'll spend the money on a tank I guess.
Lucky, when the time comes, I'll likely look you up. Even if I were to decide to sell the bike which is a serious possibility, I would really like to ride her again! I do have a friend nearby who has a super nice V-Max. He's got a synchronizer and for a couple of brews he's take care of me.
As always, thanks for the replies!
-Scott
ps: I think you all should have your locations (at least what state) by your names or something
We don't flame here. this is the 3rd or 4th evolution of the board over the last..6? years. never seen it happen. Good for us!
as to location, click on any member's "view profile" icon. if they choose to include it, they're location will show up on the member map.
Hows the weather up there ;D ;D
--Lucky, in 'warm enough to ride if i really want to" Tennessee (formally of "no frickin way, too damm cold!! RI")
OK, I'm ready to declare success... With the addition of an airbox flapper, which someone seems to have removed at some point,
I'm rather pleased with how the bike runs now. (thanks Tiger...)
It definitely idles better than ever, although there is still a small stumble moving off of low throttle. I might go back and try nickling
the flapper, but for the time being, I'm happy. When's the next Bay Area-ish ride??? :)
Steve
Quote from: Lucky on November 17, 2006, 10:05:22 PM
We don't flame here. this is the 3rd or 4th evolution of the board over the last..6? years. never seen it happen. Good for us!
I'm afraid we do.
(http://www.m900.net/images/P/Misc/explosion.jpg)
Uh..ok, mayby once... ::)