Hey everybody. I havn't had my vision very long. Heres my story sorry its a lil long winded...
I was wanting to learn to ride and this bike was the coolest outa the ones i was looking at. It seemed to be running good when I bought it. However when I got it home I was unable to start it. It was low on gas so I filled it up with premium and a can of wynns carb cleaner (recomended by the previous owner) I still couldnt get it started but I smelled gas and figured Id flooded it. I waited a while and tried to start it again, repeating this untill the starter got weak.
At that point I took the battery out and left it over night on the trickle charger. I also phoned the prev owner and asked him about starting it. The next day after work I put the battery back in, set the chocke too 3/4 like the guy said and presto she fired right up. Took a few turns but it was fairly easy.
The next few times I started it, everything fired up pretty good. And I took it for a few little rides down my street. It's quite torkey in the low revs!
Now today I decide to put some insurance on her and go for a longer ride. but what do ya know, it just wont start up for me! I put the trickle charger back on the battery to keep it from getting to low, I set it up so that it can be charged while still connected to the bike. I was wondering if trying to start it while on the charger would be bad for the electronics? Also when I let it turn over for too long it backfires. Some of them were really loud. Im kinda thinking if gas is getting into exhaust like that then maybe I should get new spark plugs. Not sure exactly what ones to get.
Ralley
she'll backfire like a cannon shot when the battery is low & she's not turning over as fast a s she should. you can jump off a car (but NEVER a running one).
she needs a good charging system (common but fixable) & good amperage from the battery, also, ask the p.o. if the starter oil seal & stator have been changed.
read this site, as far back as you can, it's worth every dime you paid!
--Lucky
Thanks for the quick reply. I've been lurking and reading on this site as long as Ive had the bike. (3 or 4 weeks) The previous owner had the starter rebuilt. He also bought a new battery. He said trying to start it with a weak battery is what killed the starter.
He never said anything about the stator or oil seal, so Im thinking I should check this out. I still have his number so I might call him again.
I need to get one of those volt meters so I can do some tests.
The starter oil seal was likely replaced when the starter was rebuilt. if its bad, you'll know it. the starter won't work; the housing will be full of oil
Not neccesarily full of oil. There should be NO oil in it at all. Doesnt have to be totally packed, but it doesnt take much to kill the starter with engine oil.
mine was dripping when i got it
Aye, seems like the oil seal fails in various severity. Mine wasnt pouring oil out, but there was at least a 1/16 of an inch in there, enough to foul it apparently.
mine had been sitting for an unknown amound of time, since i replaced the seal, i haven't had any since november.
Yeah, off-hand sounds like a weak battery. If you start it and aren't going to ride it let it idle (in a well-ventilated area of course ;) ) for at least 10-15 minutes to try and get the charge back that you used to start it. Personally I don't like having to turn it over more than 15-20 seconds at a pop, and only about 3 of those if it's being stubborn. After that I start worrying about the charge getting low. It might not be, but I do anyway. :P If you do a lot of start/no-runs just stick it on the charger again every 2-3 days (or leave it on if it'll be sitting more than about 3 days).
when I got my V it came with a new battery but it was a bit smaller than the original and I had some starting problems. I put in the proper size and have had no problems since. A little more cold cranking amps did help a lot!
Aarg! It's still not wanting to fire up for me. I left the trickle charger on all night and this morning the green light was on (meaning its all charged up) So after work I pull the tarp off the bike and try to fire her up. no action. >:(
I pulled the spark plug out of the rear cylinder to test for spark. It seemed to be sparking pretty good so Im thinking the ignition sytem must be good. Im not sure what to check for next.
-Next tool im buying will be a multimeter and then I'll probably be on here asking some newbie kinda questions about using that, but is there anything else I can check before I get it?
woa steve you posted while I was typing, I'll go check the battery and tell you guys whats written on it. The prev owner said it was still under warrenty but unfortunatly couldnt find the papers for it.
It says "14L-A2" does this sound right? Steve was your battery physically smaller because mine seems to fit the battery compartment perfectly. If it were any bigger, it wouldnt fit.
If theres spark and fuel there must be fire (omitting compression, rare problem). Pour a bit of gas down each throat, hold the throttle all the way open, and see if it'll fire over a few times.
Couple questions and then I'll get into my suggestions. When you pulled the plug was it dry or wet? Does the engine feel like it is trying to start or just lazily turning over? Are you sure there is fuel in the float bowls (you can check this by lightly loosening the drain screws on the front and back carbs)?
My suggestion is to put the petcock on prime for about 20-30 seconds, then take the tank off (make sure to put the petcock back to run. This way you will have full float bowls (hopefully) for the test that I am going to describe.
So, take off the tank and the top of the air box. Give a twist of the throttle while looking down the carbs. Make sure that there is fuel being sprayed out of the copper colored nozzles. If there isn't any fuel being sprayed out (or if it is not cone shaped or uniform between the front and back) then you have partially clogged up carbs. Which would require you to pull them, dissasemble them and dip them in carb cleaner, spray dry them with compressed air and then put them back together.
My problem with my bike is that the fuel is getting to the bowls, but it wasn't getting anywhere else because things were plugged up with dirt and junk.
Now for the next part. It there is fuel coming out the copper colored nozzles and being sprayed down pasted the butterfly valves then your next step would be to get a can of ether (spray can of starting fluid) and spray it down into both carbs. If it wont fire the ether then you could have an issue with your plugs, caps, wires, or coils. Make sure to check the gap on the plugs and make sure that they are nice and clean.
If it still wont fire over then try jumping the bike off a non running car. You can try this one of two ways. Hook the jumper cables up to the battery or go straight to the starter motor under the engine.
Please check these few items and let us know what you find out.
when I pulled the plug last night it was definetly wet. and when I try to start er she feels like shes really trying to start. not turning over lazily tho bear in mind this is my first bike with an electric start. so I dont have a whole lot to compare it too.
I did go ahead and take the tank off. it was actually way easier than i thought itd be. I thought it would leak fuel everywhere but it didnt. nice one yamaha. anyway when I loosened those drain plugs fuel did come out. and when I roll the throttle and look down I see the gas coming out of the copper lines. They both come out in a stream. and both are uniform, but they're definetly not spraying in a cone. So does this means I have to take the carbs off and clean them? :'(
I didnt try the ether because I dont have any. also I heard that ether is really hard on engines.
Quote from: ralleywolf on July 15, 2007, 09:28:38 PM
.......Also when I let it turn over for too long it backfires. Some of them were really loud. Im kinda thinking if gas is getting into exhaust like that then maybe I should get new spark plugs. Not sure exactly what ones to get.
yep, backfires will happen when.....
you don't have more than 10v when you are cranking the engine and you load up the exhaust with excess gas...
usually after you stop... and turn the key back on.... KaBam!
even a good new battery won't hold up very long...
1st.... get new plugs.... $1.79 ea... get four! I use NGK D8EA (no other numbers or letters, 'specially no "R") gap 0.024-0.028 in.
then try jumping your battery to a car battery and cranking it over.. just straight jump WITHOUT CAR RUNNING
that'll give you much longer cranking time......
Quote from: ralleywolf on July 17, 2007, 09:26:13 PM
.....and when I roll the throttle and look down I see the gas coming out of the copper lines. They both come out in a stream. and both are uniform, but they're definitely not spraying in a cone. So does this means I have to take the carbs off and clean them? :'(
yeah, I haven't seen a "cone" either... both working and uniform is ok
Quote from: ralleywolf on July 17, 2007, 12:29:54 AM
...Next tool im buying will be a multimeter....
another good tool is the "search" button ... best tool on the forum...
If the V was running and starting when you got her... then started acting up... sounds to me like there are two possibilities...
1) your carbs were clean and now they are not... do you have an in-line filter? might have to clean the main jets... accelerator nozzles work though so again, that's good.
2) your charging system was good and now isn't.... or the PO masked it with a new battery... the battery was sufficient for awhile, but if the charging system isn't working... the battery/charging system is now insufficient
Quote from: Night Vision on July 17, 2007, 10:03:34 PM
you don't have more than 10v when you are cranking the engine and you load up the exhaust with excess gas...
usually after you stop... and turn the key back on.... KaBam!
So when I get the multimeter I should check for 10 or more voltz - while cranking the starter? Where do i check, across the battery terminals?
Quote
1st.... get new plugs.... $1.79 ea... get four! I use NGK D8EA (no other numbers or letters, 'specially no "R") gap 0.024-0.028 in.
I will go and get those plugs. the ones I got with my V said "NGKR DR8ES" what is the deal with the R?
Quote
1) your carbs were clean and now they are not... do you have an in-line filter? might have to clean the main jets... accelerator nozzles work though so again, that's good.
Didnt see an inline filter there. I'll get one when I go to get the plugs. How can I tell if the main jets are cloged? I should be able to tell when I look straight down the carb right?
--Also I took my YICS triangular thing off to test it. When I blow into one port and cover the other its tight, but when I uncover the other part a bit of air escapes to the otherside. So I suppose I have an internal leak. Would this cause problems starting it? The long hose seemed to be doing okay but the short hose is in really rough shape so I'll buy some new hose too.
You want to make sure that your battery is charging to a steady state of 12.6 volts off the charger (check accross the terminals). When trying to start the bike it shouldn't drop below 11 volts especially on the first couple times. If it does then you might just have a bad battery.
Plugs being wet means that the engine is flooding out. What method are you using to start the bike (full choke, half choke, twisting the throttle...)?
If the bike hasn't been sitting for awhile then all you need to do to start it is put the choke to about 1/2 way and hit the start button. If it has sat for a few days, then choke to 1/2 and 1 twist of the throttle (just gets some gas in the chamber).
If you are trying to start the bike and twisting the throttle at the same time then you are going to flood it out almost everytime.
One trick that was suggested to me by inanecathode is that if you try to start it a few times (2 times) and it wont start then twist the throttle and hold it open the next time that you are trying to start the bike. This will allow more air in the mixture and help to offset a partially flooded condition.
If you crank it over more then say 3-4 times and it doesn't start then you want to check the plugs and see if they are dry or wet. If they are wet then it is flooded again and you need to adjust your starting method. If they are dry then check your battery as it might be low.
Another thing that you can try is to push start the bike (make sure that you have somebody to help you if you don't have a hill to use).
Quote from: ralleywolf on July 17, 2007, 11:13:33 PM
Quote from: Night Vision on July 17, 2007, 10:03:34 PM
you don't have more than 10v when you are cranking the engine and you load up the exhaust with excess gas...
usually after you stop... and turn the key back on.... KaBam!
So when I get the multimeter I should check for 10 or more voltz - while cranking the starter? Where do i check, across the battery terminals?
yes
Quote
1st.... get new plugs.... $1.79 ea... get four! I use NGK D8EA (no other numbers or letters, 'specially no "R") gap 0.024-0.028 in.
I will go and get those plugs. the ones I got with my V said "NGKR DR8ES" what is the deal with the R?
R is for restistor... you already have resistor caps, you don't want resistor plugs.... to much resistance... I just might go for non-resistor caps on my project... easier starting and I get to mess with everyone's radio ;D
Quote
1) your carbs were clean and now they are not... do you have an in-line filter? might have to clean the main jets... accelerator nozzles work though so again, that's good.
Didnt see an inline filter there. I'll get one when I go to get the plugs. How can I tell if the main jets are cloged? I should be able to tell when I look straight down the carb right?
assuming you have an 82.. there are jets behind the hex nuts on the left side of both carbs and jets under both bowls behind screw caps.... be very careful when taking any jets out... they are brass and slots can strip... get the biggest bestest fitting screwdriver on them that you can..... (I actually ground down the sides on a small driver to get to the bottom ones) hold your breath :o.... and give it a good quick "snap of the wrist"
--Also I took my YICS triangular thing off to test it. When I blow into one port and cover the other its tight, but when I uncover the other part a bit of air escapes to the otherside. So I suppose I have an internal leak. Would this cause problems starting it? The long hose seemed to be doing okay but the short hose is in really rough shape so I'll buy some new hose too.
even a small internal leak can make for rough idling and hard starting.... either split it open and fix per Lucky's site, or cap them off for now....
Quote from: dj on July 18, 2007, 07:22:39 AM
Another thing that you can try is to push start the bike (make sure that you have somebody to help you if you don't have a hill to use).
For multiple attempts, you'll want both a friend and a hill. Right now, my starter is dead so I've been solo push starting mine in a level parking lot with little difficulty. but 2 attempts will get me tired and sweaty.
Quote from: ColinthePilot on July 18, 2007, 11:30:48 AM
Quote from: dj on July 18, 2007, 07:22:39 AM
Another thing that you can try is to push start the bike (make sure that you have somebody to help you if you don't have a hill to use).
For multiple attempts, you'll want both a friend and a hill. Right now, my starter is dead so I've been solo push starting mine in a level parking lot with little difficulty. but 2 attempts will get me tired and sweaty.
Just think of it as some extra exercise (and also a bonding experience with your bike). ;D
She's alive!
I love my bike again.
I bought the plugs and put them in. I also plugged up the tubes for the YICS box with some extra bolts i had kicking around. I did most of the cranking with the booster pack hooked up to the battery. It took a fair bit of turning over but I could tell that it was firring more than before. I set the choke to 1/2 as Dj said, previously I was starting it with the choke at 3/4 because thats how the PO said he did it.
So sweet I got her running again and went for a little ride. Before I had only driven it on my little street but now its insured so I drove into the city and practice with it in the walmart parking lot. (This is my first street bike and I only have my learners permit.) Anyway I practiced driving around lamp posts and stuff and then headed home.
When I got home I turned it off, waited a lil bit and then started it again just to see how good she'd restart and of course it started right away no problem.
I love it when things work out good for a change!, but Im still interested to see how it'll fire up, next time I cold start it. I still have to check the charging system with the volt meter.
Also I need to pay some attention to the back wheel. Im thinking the previous owner favored the rear brake because its badly worn. pedal travel is long and it doesn't spring back very good. also the rear tire is kinda bald in the middle. This is my next priority and while im in there I'll make sure to change the brace bar bolts. I seen the warning and it sounds pretty important. What do they look like anyway? can I see them from the outside? Any body got some pics? Once thats done I can start thinkin about fixing the YICS box....
Thanks for all the help guys, this resource is invaluable.
Unless you order one of the new-fab ones (one of the guys here makes 'em I think, spacin' who though :P) it might be better just to leave the bolts in the hoses. That's what I'm doing with mine for now.
The brake brace bar is easily seen from the rear-right side. It's attached to the lower side of the brake drum housing (or whatever it's called) near the rod & spring used to adjust the rear brake pedal. The one bolt there is obvious, the other end is up behind the plate the foot pegs help hold on. That one's a bit trickier but doable with a bit of patience (says the guy who didn't actually do the manual work on his :( ). You could probably find all the info you need on a couple of fairly recent threads about 'em just by searching for 'em. :)
The choke thing can vary from bike to bike and pending on its total condition. Right now mine usually sits between half & 2/3.
If the tire's bald then yeah, it'd move up on priority list. So long as you're doing it look at replacing both, they don't seem to run all that much and you'd know you have two new, matching tread tires on it. Just a bit extra peace of mind. It's one of the next steps planned on mine since I think the prior owner put a front tire on the rear and the treads don't match between the two.
The rear drum brake shoes aren't too rough, I managed to do mine with zero clue about the bike a couple years before I knew about this forum and I'd never worked on a bike before.
So a few days after my last post I started it up again. It took some turning over, but it did start on its own without a boost. took her for a little ride and everything went well.
Now Im trying to start it today and all I get is a little click sound when I press the starter button. It sounds like it coming from around the battery. No turning over just a little click. Its so frustrating. I put the charger on the battery but other than a dead battery Im not sure what to look for. Has anybody ever had this problem before?
Mine's done that when the battery's been dead. Did it this past Sunday actually when the fan killed it. :P Fully charge the battery and try again. If it sits more than about two days it seems to start losing charge. I don't know how quick it'll go to click-status but it's a good idea to leave a trickle charger on if you don't plan to ride it just in case since these bikes lurve a fully-charged battery.
Is it wrong of me to expect this bike to be as reliable as my car? Is that really too much to ask? How annoying is it that the headlight always has to come on when I turn on the ignition. I'm adding a headlight toggle switch to my bikes to do list.
It SHOULD be as reliable as your car. Without doing the proper fixes it will plague you. After that it behaves as a used car. Depends on how proactive you want to be.
Why don't you want the headlight coming on with the ignition? You should have it on at all times while on the road anyway. It also should turn off while you are starting it, but come back on after the bike is running. It's a safety issue & as far as I'm concerned, a good one.
H2O
The clicking sound is the starter solenoid being activated when you hit the start button. The most likely reason that it wont start is that the batter is to weak to turn the starter. Check it with a multimeter and see what the voltage level is. If you don't have a multimeter then go out and buy one from the local automotive store (usually under $20 for a needle one). A decent multimeter should have ac volts, dc volts, ohms (both x10 scale and x1000 scale). These are the minimums that it should have.
Multimeters are invaluable in troubleshooting problems like this. It will save you a bunch of grief because you can easily find out if it is the battery right away. No need to question if the battery is weak or not, just check the voltage.
Yah, the headlight should come on with the ignition. I'm not sure but don't some states ticket if a motorcycle is on the road without a headlight on?
Mine's actually been surprisingly reliable the past month. The main exception (except the current fan gremlin) was due to operator error more than issues with the bike. Once ya get it runnin' and fixed/updated there shouldn't be any more issues than an as-mentioned used car.
your hard start is a vaccum leak between the yics chambers - as you have noticed, but am willing to bet you will need to rebuild your starter- almost certain you will find the starter full of oil, and the brushes worn to nubs. real common on bikes that have sat for a while,
just remember, a vision will die if you dont ride it, and ride it often .
there is nothing worse for your bike than sitting in the yard and not being ridden.
i ride my daily bike a lot, more than most , and have even ridden in snow, hurricaine warnings up, driving rain, even to atlanta and back with only an hours sleep . the more you ride it the better the bike seems to get.
as far as getting a kit for rebuilding your starter, check on e-bay, seller a-1 starterman--- they stock the rebuild kits, cheapest price i have seen, and it is a very complete kit seals, washers, brush plate ,nose bearings -- everything needed to do a good rebuild. they also will do the work for you, or sell you a reman or new starter ,when they have them in stock.
Quote from: ralleywolf on July 24, 2007, 12:32:43 AM
Is it wrong of me to expect this bike to be as reliable as my car? Is that really too much to ask?
you need to ask yourself this question:
"how willing am I to invest the time, effort, and money to make it reliable?" the other question you need to ask yourself is: "
do I have the skills to do it"
most of us here have made those investments to one degree or another.... and we all have different skill levels.....
if you have any reservations about those two questions, then you may be disappointed owning a Vision..... these are 25 year old motorcycles..... not 5 or 10 year old Toyotas
I have no reservations about hopping on my Vision and taking a 100, 200, 300 mile ride... but I have made those investments.
I'm with NV on this one. Garbage in-Garbage out sort of thing. There are many design flaws with the bike but once addressed it is as reliable as any 25 year old bike. There are maybe only 2 fixes that would be considered difficult(and they really aren't). The starter clutch fix and carb setup.
Quote from: Night Vision on July 24, 2007, 08:42:52 PM
you need to ask yourself this question: "how willing am I to invest the time, effort, and money to make it reliable?"
the other question you need to ask yourself is: "do I have the skills to do it"
most of us here have made those investments to one degree or another.... I have no reservations about hopping on my Vision and taking a 100, 200, 300 mile ride... but I have made those investments.
8) I agree 100% with you N_V..."What you sow, you reap"... 8) You can't make a silk purse outta a sows ear, not without a lot of time, pain and investment... :)
8) My "V" from the purchase to present stands me somewhere in the region of $3,500.00...and worth every penny that I have spent/invested... 8)
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Okay heres an update, I get home from work, trickle chargers been on the bike all night and all day while Im at work. The green light is on which means the battery's charged. So I go to start it and all I get is that same clicking sound. -Hook up my booster pack and still the same clicking noise. So Im pretty bummed out at this point. Im flipping thru my Haynes manual and looking at the starting system and I see the bit about the starter relay. I'd seen that little boxy like thingy when I was going thru the wires cleaning them up. So I reach my hand behind the battery and wiggle the relay wires a little bit- pop in the key and voila she turns over and fires right up with minimal cranking! And I take her for a little ride. So I guess I got some loose wires too tighten up. This musta been what the prev owner meant when he said the bike was finicky.
Okay now about the other stuff. My reliable car im talking about isn't a 5 or 10 year old toyota. Ive never owned anything so new. Its an '85 Trans am. And its only reliable because Ive put countless hours of work and maintenance into it. Ive done two engine swaps on it and the current engine im running is a 350 I nabed out of my old '78 chevy van. Im no stranger to wrenching on old vehicles although I am new to street bikes. I bought the bike to learn on and get my motorcycle license with. I bought it under the impression that it would be reliable but I guess that was naive of me.
Anyway there is no turning back for me so anything that needs fixing on it, I will fix it.
The only bike I ever had before this was a 79 yamaha 80, 2 stroke dirt bike. I loved that thing and drover her hard. I once mixed the gas too lean and cooked the engine. But I rebuilt her with a new piston and rings and honed out the cylinder and she was good as new again.
Also the reason why I wanted to put a toggle switch for the light was because when Im trying to start it and the battery's kinda low the last thing I want is the headlight to be coming on and using juice. But maybe I wont do it as everyone seems to think its a bad idea.
Sounds like once you settle into being ready to get 'er goin' you'll be fine with it. I doubt you'll regret it once you do either. :)
The headlight turns off automatically when you hit the start button. At least it is supposed to. That keeps as much juice headed for the starter as possible.
There is a saying going around here. You bought a used bike that others have ridden a lot of the good out of. You need to put that good back into it in order to reclaim the reliability. I've taken mine on rides over 400 miles in the last few years. Always gets me home. I've fried a stator a year for the last three years, but that's been the only reliability issue for me. I now keep a spare stator on hand just in case.
H2O
They're actually pretty reliable once you get the initial gremlins out.
Quote from: ralleywolf on July 24, 2007, 09:49:17 PM
.....My reliable car im talking about isn't a 5 or 10 year old toyota.....Its an '85 Trans am. And its only reliable because Ive put countless hours of work and maintenance into it.
.....Anyway there is no turning back for me so anything that needs fixing on it, I will fix it.
Quote from: Aelwulf on July 24, 2007, 09:51:08 PM
Sounds like once you settle into being ready to get 'er goin' you'll be fine with it. I doubt you'll regret it once you do either. :)
I've seen lots of newbies come in like lions and go out like lambs because the get frustrated quickly or are expecting instant gratification.....
sounds like ralleywolf will be more than ok :)
If all you are getting with a fully charged battery is a click of the soleniod then your starter motor is messed up. Pull it and bench check it.
Let us know if:
a) it works on the bench test
b) you pull it and it is dripping oil
c) wont turn at all
We can go from there on the advice. We need you to check the starter motor first as that is the most common problem for the "only getting a click noise" problem.
or.... it could be the starter soleniod... or.... starter relay....
Quote from: Night Vision on July 25, 2007, 08:24:50 AM
or.... it could be the starter soleniod... or.... starter relay....
If he is hearing a click then most likely the soleniod is activating. So I have a hard time believing that it is the soleniod (It could be, but I think it to be unlikely). I still say to check the starter motor first.
With bike in nuetral, run 12V from the bike battery directly to the starter motors' power lug(use jumper cables). See what happens and report back.