Riders Of Vision

General => TechTalk => Topic started by: Tiffanator on November 10, 2007, 05:58:57 PM

Title: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 10, 2007, 05:58:57 PM
Ok guys... I have sealed all the holes, removed the dent, run the marine clean through the tank and am 1 hour into the metal ready stage and I just peeked in the tank and its still rusty.  I read up on some other threads to see if I could figure out what to do about this and I'm getting scared.

If I drain the metal ready, rinse thoroughly, dry with a hairdryer, take it inside and POR it will it peel? That is SO not what I want. After all the trouble I have been through with this tank I do NOT want to start over.

My other option is that I still have about 2-3 gallons of Muriatic acid/water mixture that I originally used to clean the rust.. only it took so long to seal the holes that the tank rusted again. Should I dump that in there with some chain and shake it around for a day or so then try again? If I do that will I have to buy more marine clean and metal ready and repeat that process?

I can get a pic of what it looks like inside the tank if needed... but in short... its rusty. I read afterwards that I should have put some chain or something in with the marine clean... can I put any in now? Will it help?

Hope someone reads this soon.
Thanks
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: kwells on November 10, 2007, 06:13:25 PM
There will be some flash rusting that occurs after the acid step.. POR actually says this is not a problem and will adhere.  If there are gigantic sections of rust still in the tank then I would probably be concerned.  If you were to re-acid the tank with muratic it will probably strip off your zinc coating contained in the POR phosphoric.  That would probably have greater adverse effects than to simply coat as-is.  Just have to use your judgment on this one.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Night Vision on November 10, 2007, 06:32:20 PM
IMO the flash rust gives the por something to stick to.... just follow the steps, no worries  ;)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 10, 2007, 06:39:01 PM
Hi guys... well.. upon further investigation into the tank... there's still Kreem in it. Not like a little... a pretty good bit in some areas.
The rust isn't really a flash rust... its more of like spots of rust and spaces in between them have cleaned up. I'm really not sure what to do at this point... cause I don't want to be stripping off gooey POR in a few days.

Kwells... that's what I was worried about... the muriatic would undo everything I've just done to get the tank ready, so I'd have to go through the process again.

Is it true that if POR hits Kreem it gets all gooey and never cures? I'm scared now. Will it be ok if I don't POR the tank right when I'm done with the metal ready? I mean... if I wait til in the morning to get a few more opinions and think about it will it have rusted again? I can go ahead and finish the metal ready, rinse the tank, dry it with warm air and bring it inside for the night.

Thanks all.
Tiff
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 10, 2007, 07:13:43 PM
Ok next question... Is this the fuel filter (http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/product_catalog/Product.jsp?skuId=&store=Main&catId=413&productId=p182519&leafCatId=41304&mmyId=) that you all are using?  If not... which one is it? This one seems good... its clear... and inexpensive... and clear.
Sorry to be a bother with all the questions.. the metal ready is out and the tank is sitting on the floor next to me... I'm not sure where to go from here... just remembered I don't have a hair dryer or heat gun, guess I need to borrow one.
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: h2olawyer on November 10, 2007, 07:32:12 PM
I'll let the others who have had more recent experience with formerly Kreemed tanks & new POR.  However, that is the fuel filter I currently use.  Works great for me.

H2O
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: ironb12s on November 10, 2007, 08:01:24 PM
Tiff, have you treated the tank with Phosphoric Acid, which I think is included with POR-15 Kit?  The PHO will etch the metal and remove any rust that is there, and it needs to be rinsed very well after use, before you apply the liner.  PHO is what is included with Kreem, and when used properly does the cleanout well - as evidenced by the liner in my tanks - so let's forgo any argument about it.   ;)  I would try to get the remaining Kreem out, tho, it may interfere with the POR-15.

As for the filter, yeppers, that one will be fine.  I use an automotive clear glass filter myself, and have had no troubles whatsoever.  ANY filter is better than none.  I just got done having to pull the carbs off of Brandi (my B12S) due to bowl drains being stuck and heads chewed up - all 4 will need replaced - butt I pulled the bowls off and found NOTHING untoward in them.  The outsides are cruddy (not anymore) but innards were nice and spotless.

Bon chance, T.   :) 
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 10, 2007, 08:15:47 PM
Thanks, I'll order that filter for if I ever get the tank done... ugh.
Ironb12s... yes... the metal ready is a phosphoric acid. I let it sit the recommended 2 hours and still have rust and Kreem in the tank. At this point my conscience is telling me to scrap what I just did and start over with more acetone and chain, then muriatic acid again, then go back through the POR process. At this point I'm not really worried about cost.. I just don't want to screw this tank up for good.
Thanks for the suggestions everyone.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on November 10, 2007, 08:30:57 PM
honestly, if it was me, i'd just make sure it's dry, nothing rattling around (lose rust) & POR it.  as long as it holds fuel without leaking you'll be fine. 

POR won't degrade the Kreem, some of the kits though have a little less POR than we really need, sorry i forget what size off hand... you just want to completely cover EVERYTHING inside.

Also, Vision tanks aren't that hard to come by. they show up with regularity here, on Ebay and other places.  it's entirly possable you'll find a good used tank (good meaning already prepped & ready to use) when your not even looking for one, for less than you've put out on this one.

So finish this one up & go on to the next project, & get her on the street.

 :D --Lucky
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: ironb12s on November 10, 2007, 08:37:32 PM
Thanks, I'll order that filter for if I ever get the tank done... ugh.
Ironb12s... yes... the metal ready is a phosphoric acid. I let it sit the recommended 2 hours and still have rust and Kreem in the tank. At this point my conscience is telling me to scrap what I just did and start over with more acetone and chain, then muriatic acid again, then go back through the POR process. At this point I'm not really worried about cost.. I just don't want to screw this tank up for good.
Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

A suggested 2 hours?   :o  I let my tanks sit for at least 24 with it in there. At 12 hours, I drained about 1 gallon out, and then shook the tank with the remaining 3-4 gallons in it every hour. :-\

I think that at this point, throw the chain in with the acetone, but only enough to cover the chain.  Then, tilt the tank so the solution with the chain is over the areas with the Kreem, shake the tank - or rather, raise one end or side so the chain slides across the Kreem.  Repeat with the PHO and chain, don't even bother with the MURI.  Rinse thoroughly, and apply the POR-15.

You are a rather tenacious gal, good luck to you in your further efforts.  I hope this helps you get the job done, you've certainly earned it at this point.   ;)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: YellowJacket! on November 10, 2007, 11:01:15 PM
Step# 36 for removing stubborn stuck on gunk in a tank:  Get some good size 1 foot lengths of chain.  The kind of chain that you would lock up something really valuable with.  Cut it onto a few 1 foot lengths.  Fill your tank with the phosphoric acid and drop the chain in.  Then get a buddy and grip the tank from both ends and shake, rattle and roll the crap out of it.  The chain will scrape anything off the walls of the tank that is still in there.  Make sure the tank is sealed well and you are wearing protective clothing and eye wear just in case something comes undone.
It **should** get the rest of the stuff out.
I tried it without a buddy and practically dislocated my shoulder shaking the darn thing.

I'm off work tomorrow if you need a buddy.  ;D

Good Luck!

David
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: QBS on November 10, 2007, 11:14:26 PM
Window sash chain with its sharp angular edges is really good for this purpose.  Ace Hardware or the like will probably have it.  Its' what I used when I PORed my '83 tank.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 11, 2007, 07:37:50 AM
Thanks so much everyone.
Lucky... I really want to just POR it and forget it... but I'm having nightmares of the POR peeling cause I didn't do something right. I can't do this process again. I could get another tank... I guess I'll have to if this doesn't work. I really want to make this tank work.
ironb12s... One the bottle it says do not leave the metal ready in for more than 2 hours. I don't know why it says that, but I'm not going to risk it eating up my already pitiful looking tank. So you think that the POR will still stick after acetone? Hmm.
Dave... I have chain (finally), I'll get some phosphoric at lowes I guess... do I need to dilute it? With the metal ready it said to just pour it in there... not sure if the same is true for phosphoric. Not sure if I can find a buddy... you think you could drop down here tomorrow and help me?  ;D
I finally have my tank sealed... I made a cover for the petcock and fill hole using some roofing rubber and wood... works well.
QBS... window sash chain? I've never seen that before... I'll check for it at lowes.

I know not to do the bolts and screws again... I had to pick them out one by one with a flexible grabber cause genius here happened to drop in a bunch of stainless steel ones. I still missed one and sucked it up with the vacuum cleaner.
Thanks everyone.
Tiff
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on November 11, 2007, 08:04:49 AM
I'm off work tomorrow if you need a buddy.  ;D

Good Luck!

David

So where were you last week? my knuckles are dragging on the ground now, but when the PRETTY GIRL needs some help...

That's it, your out of the He-Mans Woman Haters Club!  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiger on November 11, 2007, 08:16:36 AM
 :) Girl, I gotta say that I admire your tenacity to your gas tank project and have to think that, at this rate, your going to have a Vision to be proud of... 8)
However, I worry that this gas tank could burn you out... :-\ I, for one, would hate to loose your enthusiasm on this forum... 8)
Another way, would be to get another gas tank, that will allow you to carry on with the other things that need to be done to the "V" and "do" your original gas tank as and when...Just my 2 cents worth.

             
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on November 11, 2007, 08:18:22 AM
Plus Dave wants yopu to visit...
 ;) ;)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 11, 2007, 12:41:29 PM
Uh oh Dave... you're in trouble.  :o
Tiger... I have worried the same thing myself... and there have been times dealing with this tank that I have wanted to take the bike and throw it off a cliff... well.. the tank for sure, maybe not the whole bike. The thing is... if I look at EVERYTHING that needs to be done to this bike I just get really overwhelmed and feel like I'll never be able to do it all. I have no idea how to do most of the stuff that needs to be done like wheel bearings, head bearings, starter clutch bolts, fork rebuilds and so on and so forth. I have to take things one at a time cause if I get too many things started... I never finish any of them. However... I find myself laying there at night thinking about all the cool stuff I can do to this bike... I have a lot of things planned and I hope I get to do them all. The good thing is that I can do them a little at a time while the bike is on the road.

As for my progress... I went out hunting phosporic acid this morning and what do you know... no one has it. So I hit up Advanced Auto Parts and find a metal conditioner/rust eater liquid that seems A LOT like metal ready and contains phosphoric acid. So I bought two quarts. I cut up 2 lenghts of big meaty chain and about 5 lengths of swingset chain and put them in the tank with 1 quart of the rust eater stuff. I have been shaking it ever few minutes for as long as I can til my arms nearly fall off... then leaving it to sit in different positions. It says to sit a minimum of 1 hour... I'm thinking I'll leave it in there for about 3 then check and see how its working.

Once time is up on that stuff I'll hit it with a heat gun that I snagged from my parents' house and POR it... sparkly clean or not.
Next possible problem. The kit I have gave me 8 ounces of POR... that just really really doesn't seem like enough. Anyone used that amount successfully? Should I go ahead and order another 8 ounces?

Thanks
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 11, 2007, 12:42:23 PM
Oh.. and Dave... I have a spare bedroom and make some mean lasagna... your wife is welcome to come too since I'm sure she doesn't trust you.  ;)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: ironb12s on November 11, 2007, 12:47:59 PM
Thanks so much everyone.

ironb12s... One the bottle it says do not leave the metal ready in for more than 2 hours. I don't know why it says that, but I'm not going to risk it eating up my already pitiful looking tank. So you think that the POR will still stick after acetone? Hmm.

Thanks everyone.
Tiff

No, I said reapply the PHO after the acetone.  Get the Kreem out, and acetone does that.  Then etch and remove rust, the PHO does that.  The 2 hours mystifies me, PHO isn't an acid like Hydro or Sulfru, it won't degrade the metal unless you take the same approach like you did with the acetone that made the J-B melt.  I think the dilution of the PHO with the Kreem kit was 16:1, but I'd have to verify that.  I made a 4-5 gal bucket using a quart of PHO from the Kreem kit.

What is "metal ready"?  Moreover, I never saw any rust, after I'd PHO'd and rinsed my tanks prior to lining them.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: ironb12s on November 11, 2007, 12:56:37 PM
Tiff, you don't need to "shake" the tank, just tilt it from one end to the other, and let the chain slide over the areas that you need to strip.  That shouldn't wear you out nearly as quickly.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: kwells on November 11, 2007, 01:02:28 PM
The Metal Ready in the POR15 kit is the phosphoric acid/zn.  And yes, it actually isnt a very strong molarity.  That is why I used a 'primer' acid when i did mine.  The 2 hr time limit I think could be taken with a grain of salt.  I would say not to leave it in overnight though.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: 67GTO on November 11, 2007, 02:51:13 PM
"Next possible problem. The kit I have gave me 8 ounces of POR... that just really really doesn't seem like enough. Anyone used that amount successfully? Should I go ahead and order another 8 ounces?"

That amount was plenty to coat my tank with. Had to pour out the excess.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: YellowJacket! on November 11, 2007, 03:08:46 PM
Tiff,
Heres some words of encouragement.
When I got my Vision, I did not know anything at all about fabrication, rebuilding, painting, body work, motorcycle electronics and mechanicals, nothing.  I had ridden dirt bikes as a kid a long time ago and that was it.  I got my Vision the same way you did; it was given to me and I didn't have a clue where to start.  But I did.  I took one part off, then another, and another until I had half a garage full of motorcycle parts and 500mb of digital pictures.
There were many, MANY times I wanted to throw it off a cliff, but, like you, it became a mission and I was not going to give up.  I got all sorts of criticism from my wife about not only getting a bike, but even thinking about riding one, let alone restoring one (which is deep down inside why I think you are so very cool.... ;D  )
Anyway, hang in there.  You have beat 90% of the tank battle.  The rest will come much more easily.

David
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 11, 2007, 03:48:37 PM
Thanks guys... The soak in phosphoric whatever that stuff was is done and the tank is sitting here next to me. There is still something jingling around in there, its either epoxy putty or JB weld... and its not wanting to come out... I did the vacuum thing.. which is actually very handy for getting the rest of the water out. I'm about to hit it with the heat gun til its good and dry then POR it and hope for the best. Its not totally clean, in fact its only a little better than it was, but I'm going with what Lucky said and making sure its free of stuff rustling around (except my one little tagalong) and dry and doing it.
Dave... good to hear you were like me and still made it. My family thinks I'm nuts for having a bike, riding a bike, having a bike that doesn't run, and fixing up a bike... maybe they are right... but its going to be SO nice when its fixed and they are saying how nice it looks. BOOYAH!

Ok.. here we go... wish me luck.
Tiff.
Wish me luck.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: kwells on November 11, 2007, 04:49:43 PM
The 8 ounces is more than enough...You actually end up draining a bit of it after it is all coated.  After it was coated and I drained the excess I let it dry in the upright position so that the amt that is left in there will settle in the low spots for a bit of extra protection.  After about 3 days of sitting I then put some gas in.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 11, 2007, 06:05:15 PM
Ok... I hope someone is reading this soon... I have the can of POR open and I've been stirring for about 10 minutes and I'm not getting a uniform color. Its a light silver but where I stir it turns dark. Is this just from the silver flake in there or is mine bad? I've had it for several months.
Help?
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on November 11, 2007, 06:15:16 PM
it should be fine, throw caution to the wind!!

--Lucky
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 11, 2007, 06:26:05 PM
Thanks lucky... I went ahead and put it in... have it drooling around in the tank now... man I hope this works.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: YellowJacket! on November 11, 2007, 06:29:43 PM
Ohhhh I hope I'm not too late.  Make sure the tank is at room temp before puring in the POR.  The first time I did my first tank, I had just finished drying it with the hair dryer and it was still quite warm.  As soon as I poured in the POR, it started to set up. (on the hump in the middle).  I stopped and let it cool down by aiming a fan at it to accelerate the process since I didn't want the POR in the can to set up either.
And yes, I never could get a uniform color either.  It ended up kind of swirly in the can.

now, back to my homework...

David
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on November 11, 2007, 06:52:23 PM
Go Tiff GO!!!
 ;D
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 11, 2007, 06:54:58 PM
Thanks Dave, the tank was inside and had been sitting for a while before I poured the POR in.. hehe... poured the por.. nice.   :D
Anywhoo... my tank is either bigger... has a different neck... or I'm doing something wrong cause I can't get any excess to come out... so its just going to sit there and cure. I had to use the brush and some of the leftover in the can to coat the area just inside the filler hole cause it wouldn't puddle there. Looking down in the tank its still not a uniform color and you can see some bumps from the rust spots... man I hope this works. If not... NEW TANK! I'll let you all know what happens as it starts to set up. Fingers crossed.
Tiff
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Night Vision on November 11, 2007, 08:12:42 PM
now that you're close to being done.... and before you gas it up a week from now...don't forget to drill the holes in the filler neck to avoid those boil overs
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiger on November 12, 2007, 07:04:26 AM
 ??? So how is it looking Tiff'... ???

                   
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 12, 2007, 08:07:17 AM
Well... as of this morning no peeling. Its still a little tacky in some spots inside the tank... well... that I can feel just sticking my finger in there. Around the filler hole its dry and appears to be sticking well. I pulled off the plug that I had over the petcock, the bolts came out quite easily.
Fingers still crossed. Its sitting in the living room (its wonderful living alone) so its not exposed to the humidity outside. I'm going to let it stay there all day today then I'll move it out to the shop and start sanding down the epoxy putty on the outside and prepping it for paint.
N_V... holes in the filler neck? First I've heard of that. How many holes? Any special size or spacing or is it just enough to let the air through?
Thanks
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: ironb12s on November 12, 2007, 12:30:10 PM
Step back from the tank. Let it sit for the next 2 days, don't even look in there.  Let the POR finish curing before you do anything else.  Any peeling isn't going to happen right after you've applied it, but down the road a few months or years.  Next weekend you can drill vent holes in the neck, just be sure you get all of the metal filings out after...drilling from under (tank overhead) would avoid that, but then your eyes would be at risk.  Butt, you wear protective gear when you're doing this work, no?   ;)

And, the perfect place to let a CBMM's tank cure would be the dining room or kitchen table...    ;D

Congrats, tho, you've won the war!   8)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Night Vision on November 12, 2007, 08:23:17 PM
........ Its sitting in the living room (its wonderful living alone) so its not exposed to the humidity outside. ........

N_V... holes in the filler neck? First I've heard of that. How many holes? Any special size or spacing or is it just enough to let the air through?


actually, humidity will help the por dry faster  ;)

I put two 1/16 in holes in the filler neck.... there's are cutouts/recesses at 12:00 and 6:00 (not the ones for the gas cap at 1:00 and 7:00, down lower in the filler neck....

I used a 4"? long 1/16 bit from Ace (that I can't find right now, so it looks like I'll need another) and a punch so that long skinny bit didn't walk too much.

Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Rick G on November 13, 2007, 01:15:50 AM
Being an old sheetmetal mechanic, I used a scratch awl to punch a hole at  3 oclock, to stop boil overs during fill ups. 
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 13, 2007, 07:55:26 AM
N_V and Rick... thanks guys, didn't know anything about the holes, glad you told me so I didn't have to learn first hand.   :-\ I will put that on my list of things to do.
N_V... I thought that humidity was bad for the POR? Well... I'll go with what you guys say, you are the experts. The tank has been moved to the garage because it stunk up my house. I'm still trying to get rid of POR-15 smell. Its a nice humid morning for the tank too.  :)
Thanks
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: YellowJacket! on November 13, 2007, 09:11:18 AM
The good thing about the POR smell is that it counteracts the phosphoric acid smell.   Not as nice as the sweet acetone smell though.  ;D

David
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiger on November 17, 2007, 08:11:20 AM
 ??? Sooooooo......Nearly a weeks gone by...how's the "new" tank coming along Tiff' ???

                 
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 17, 2007, 12:07:44 PM
Hey Tiger, thanks for checking up. I let the tank sit all week curing. I'm about to put the airbox on, tank on, fill her up with some gas and see if we can't get this kitten to purr. If anyone is reading this though... I have 2 hoses that look like fuel line hoses that run from the back of the bike to up around the carb... where do they go? I also have a black hose that comes off the airbox, where does it go? There is one nipple on the carbs that I don't know what hose attaches to it, I figured it was one of the clearish fuel hoses, but neither will reach. Help?

Thanks
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 17, 2007, 12:14:10 PM
Got my answer on the hose coming off the airbox. Now the other two?
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: kwells on November 17, 2007, 12:30:17 PM
Tiff,
This may help...it's not mine ...just reposting
http://www.xz550.com/carbvac_page_files/vac_diagram.jpeg
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: ironb12s on November 17, 2007, 12:43:42 PM
Tiff,
This may help...it's not mine ...just reposting
http://www.xz550.com/carbvac_page_files/vac_diagram.jpeg

I scoped that diagram, and it leaves just as many questions unanswered.   :(  WHAT fuel pump and fuel regulator?  Are we talking about the petcock?  Never mind, that is the ACCELERATOR pump.

There should be a 1/4"-5/16" line for fuel from the carbs to the petcock, and another 1/8"-3/16" line from a vacuum nipple on the carbs to the petcock.  That line may be split to supply vacuum to the YICS and other sundries, or that may be from the other vacuum nipple on the carbs.

Have'n ya punched the vents in the filler neck?
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiger on November 17, 2007, 01:14:54 PM
1 x  I have 2 hoses that look like fuel line hoses that run from the back of the bike to up around the carb... where do they go?

2 x I also have a black hose that comes off the airbox, where does it go?

3 x There is one nipple on the carbs that I don't know what hose attaches to it, I figured it was one of the clearish fuel hoses, but neither will reach. Help?

 :) #1, I think, are the carb vent line's...They run down from the carbs toward the rear of the bike and exit out at the centre stand, (approx'), between the battery box & the C.D.I unit.
With the gas tank and air box removed...Look down at the carb's and you will find a vent at the rear top left corner of both carb's. attach a hose to each one.
These are normally "clear" hose, but may have been changed out by a previous owner...I changed mine ;)

 :) #2 If this is a thin hose coming out of the top/front of the air box it attaches to a wee disc filter that is located on the right side of the carb, forward of the YIC's...

 ??? #3...Where on the carbs is it ???

               
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 17, 2007, 02:01:26 PM
I know the two hoses that go to the petcock. These aren't them. I've snapped a few pictures of what I'm talking about.
Tiger... that kinda makes sense... but don't those two vents go up into the airbox? Would the hoses have to be routed through the airbox for that to be the case?
Ok... pics.
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/Tiffanator/Vision%20Restoration/SANY0110.jpg)
You can see the whole setup in that pic. The hose that comes out of the top of the disc filter goes to the right hand side of the carb as seen in that pic. Thats how it was when i took the carbs off. I read in a post that the small hose from the top of the airbox attaches to the nipple on the carb as seen on the lower side of the front carb (right hand) as seen in the pic, its the black hose that runs off the screen. The two hoses in question are that clearish-orange hose at the bottom of the pic. It was attached to something with a pretty big outer diameter as seen in the next pic:
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/Tiffanator/Vision%20Restoration/SANY0111.jpg)
Here you can kinda get a feel of the diameter of the hose. There is another one this same size that isn't quite long enough to reach up to the carbs, it just makes it to the back of the rear carb. I took the airbox and carbs off so long ago that I don't remember where these were connected. I took lots of pics of the carbs... once they were off the bike.. duh. Note to self.
Ok.. third pic, closeup of the disc filter. Again this is how the disc filter was hooked up when the carbs came off... I think. Now I'm not so sure. I'll go look.
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/Tiffanator/Vision%20Restoration/SANY0113.jpg)
Again... the hose on the right hand side goes from the carb down to the disc filter... the hose to the lower left goes from the carb to the airbox.

Open for corrections. I'm going to go consult all my other pics to make sure thats how it was... I'm doubting myself now.
Thanks... SHE WILL CRANK TODAY! I hope.
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: kwells on November 17, 2007, 02:10:28 PM
those large diameter clear-ish hoses are drainage hoses....they go on the 'petcock side' of the carbs on the top...facing toward the rear
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g56/kwellzz/vision/SANY01112.jpg)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g56/kwellzz/SANY01100.jpg)

Founds a spare set put together already and snapped a pic
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g56/kwellzz/carbsetup.jpg)



Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 17, 2007, 02:48:25 PM
Thanks... that helps tons... I hooked everything up, put the tank on, hooked up the fuel lines, put some gas in the tank... cranked it over.. and... nothing. How do I get the bike to prime the carbs? They have no fuel in them and it seems like pumping the throttle is doing nothing. I pulled the tank off and hooked up a line and kinda a pony tank type deal with a funnel... it seems to be pulling a little bit of gas when I crank it over, but opening the throttle doesn't shoot a stream of fuel into the carb throat. I know.. I'm ignorant and should probably stop here.
Help.
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: kwells on November 17, 2007, 02:52:00 PM
unless you pulled the accelerator nozzles off and cleaned in there ...they are probably still clogged unfortunately
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g56/kwellzz/vision/acceleratornozzle.jpg)
The squirt will only come out when the throttle is twisted and activates the accelerator pump
To prime the carbs....just turn the petcock to prime and wait a couple mins for it to trickle through
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 17, 2007, 03:02:30 PM
Thanks for all the fast help. You are a lifesaver. I did pull out the accellerator nozzles and cleaned them and blew air through them. I have tried once before to crank the bike and got them to spray, but the carbs weren't completely clean so I pulled them off and cleaned them again, and haven't gotten the nozzles to spray again. I have the petcock set to prime now so will just watch to see what happens.
Thanks so much.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 17, 2007, 03:05:01 PM
OH.. and NO LEAKS FROM THE GAS TANK!!! WOOOOO! I'm happy... very happy. Lets hope it stays that way. No leaks from the petcock either.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: ironb12s on November 17, 2007, 03:06:39 PM
Yep, let the carbs prime, the bowls need to fill and the pump needs to as well.  Sorry to post the obvious about the petcock, just making sure.  When you see fuel squirt from the accelerator jets, it should be ready to fire.  ;)

KW, man, how a pic is worth a thousand words, and the memories it brought back!    ;D
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: h2olawyer on November 17, 2007, 03:19:43 PM
Tiff -I hear a drum roll & we're collectively holding our breath.  You appear to be on the homestretch getting her running!   8)

Tiff,
This may help...it's not mine ...just reposting
http://www.xz550.com/carbvac_page_files/vac_diagram.jpeg


I scoped that diagram, and it leaves just as many questions unanswered.   :(  WHAT fuel pump and fuel regulator?  Are we talking about the petcock?  Never mind, that is the ACCELERATOR pump.

The Vision has & fuel pump / regulator located between the carbs.  If you had yours close or had worked on it recently, maybe you would remember this fact.

H2O
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 17, 2007, 03:33:41 PM
Thanks guys... ok... something funny has to be going on. When I tried to crank the bike last time, before I cleaned the carbs a second time... I hooked up a funnel and hose and the fuel flowed freely down into the carbs til I dumped out the side. Now... I hook everything up the same way... and its just sitting there. The fuel is not flowing into the carbs. When I cleaned them the second time I did not mess with the fuel pump and regulator at all, only split the carbs and dunked each one. Now.. all of a sudden, its acting like something got clogged in the process. I have checked for kinks in the hoses and find nothing. I'm baffled.
Any ideas? Anyone experienced this?
Thanks
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: ironb12s on November 17, 2007, 03:46:17 PM
I'd pull all of the supply hosing and blow them out to see if they are plugged with something.  Who knows, maybe something in the petcock broke loose, or a bit of debris from the tank (NO, THAT CAN'T BE IT) or something is now in the path of the fuel.  That black hose going between the carbs on the right, no, rather the left side, the T tube, is the main supply bar, no?  Check it for a block, shoot carb cleaner into the fuel ports.  At last resort, check the bowl by loosening their drains.

DAMMIT, Girl, you are SO close!
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: ironb12s on November 17, 2007, 03:56:32 PM
The Vision has & fuel pump / regulator located between the carbs.  If you had yours close or had worked on it recently, maybe you would remember this fact.

H2O

Yep, KW's pic brought it all back, it's been at least 10 years since I have looked at my V's carbs at length...
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 17, 2007, 05:02:47 PM
Ok, I pulled off the supply hose and fuel went everywhere... but when I hook them up... nothing. So apparently both lines are clogged going into the carb. I tried to blow air into them, but the fittings I bought for the air blaster on my air gun aren't compatible with the fittings on the hose... so it won't work. I'm just probably going to have to pull the carbs off again and blast them out with air when I get the right fitting. Then maybe it will work. I sloshed a little fuel down the carb throats and the bike fired and rolled over a few times before it ran out of fuel. So it will fire, it just needs the fuel to do it.
Soon... very soon.
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: YellowJacket! on November 17, 2007, 05:18:55 PM
Tiff,
I know its obvious but make sure the fuel supply line coming from the petcock to the carb is not kinked.

I'm holding my breath.

Good Luck!

David
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: ironb12s on November 17, 2007, 05:33:29 PM
IIRC, the tops of these carbs can be removed, above the venturis?  You can pull those and check the passages fuel is supposed to enter the bowls from.  Pulling the carbs isn't a big deal, as you already know, with the tank, seat and airbox out of the way.  I think a cleaning of the fuel inlets is in order, not necessarily another "dip".  While off, remove the bowls and check the inlet needles for movement.

Is there fuel getting thru the pump that is between the carbs?  On the T tube?  Take care of whatever is blocking the inlet, all should be cured.  As I stated previously, leave the bowl drains loose or off to ensure that fuel is getting to them...and I would test all of this off of the bike, if I could - with your pony tank as you described it.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 17, 2007, 06:29:41 PM
Dave... I chased the fuel all the way to the T shaped line going directly from the fuel pump into the carbs... it shot fuel all over me so I'm getting a good stream to there, it just won't flow into the carbs. I tried to blow some air into the passages but was trying to hold the air gun fitting on the hose and air was blowing in every direction out of the fitting and it was an awkward angle so I just gave up. I will go to Lowe's and get the right fitting and try again, that's so annoying. I think the male end of the fitting is longer than the female end so it won't lock in place, so it just shoots air everywhere.
ironb12s... easy to get out? I hate those things. I'll see if I can find a way to just pull the tops and blow air through the passages to clear them up. Maybe some crud came loose on the second dunk and clogged them up.. but I thought I made sure all of those were clear. Never hurts to just run another check though.
I'm going to get it. I'm too close now.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: ironb12s on November 17, 2007, 06:39:14 PM
ironb12s... easy to get out? I hate those things. I'll see if I can find a way to just pull the tops and blow air through the passages to clear them up. Maybe some crud came loose on the second dunk and clogged them up.. but I thought I made sure all of those were clear. Never hurts to just run another check though.
I'm going to get it. I'm too close now.

Gotta love that tenacity!  Yes, easy to get out with the removal of the cables and hoses, two clamps on the intake boots...try removing the carbs of my GSF1200S sometime to compare.   ;) 

If you can, as ICRC, do as you are saying with the tops.  Just ensure that the top half of the carbs are clear of debris...let us know what and if you find anything, it may point to something more serious.  Oh, and don't rush it, take your time.  You've come too far to make a mistake and bollux things up, now.  If you don't get the carbs out completely, tap on the bowls to dislodge a possibly stuck needle valve.  There can't be much left in the way of the fuel getting to the bowls and accel pump...heck get a fitting and bypass the fuel pump temporarily.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: kwells on November 17, 2007, 07:56:55 PM
It is possible that the float needles were put in upside down and now arent allowing the bowls to fill.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: ironb12s on November 17, 2007, 08:36:20 PM
It is possible that the float needles were put in upside down and now arent allowing the bowls to fill.

I doubt it strongly, the needles in upside down wouldn't stop anything...  Square peg over a round hole, as it were.   :)  Have you ever witnessed such a feat?   ;)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: kwells on November 17, 2007, 09:15:15 PM
it potentially would cause exactly that.  It is just that it would be unlikely to happen. 
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 17, 2007, 09:21:35 PM
It is possible that the float needles were put in upside down and now arent allowing the bowls to fill.

I doubt it strongly, the needles in upside down wouldn't stop anything...  Square peg over a round hole, as it were.   :)  Have you ever witnessed such a feat?   ;)
Yes it will... ask me how I know...  ;)

Actually I think you were both right... one was in backwards, one was stuck. The one that was in backwards, flipped it around and score, it worked. The one that was stuck... well... it took 3 tries and finally the compressed air set it straight.
Now... further down the line. I have 2 bowls full of fuel and nothing come out of the nozzle. Pulled the tops off again... 4th time for the front, 2nd time for the back. Pulled the nozzles out.. blew air through both of them. I put the back one back in and I get a dribble. I checked to be sure that fluid was actually getting to the nozzle. Front carb.. no dice... something is stuck. Rear carb... its getting it.. not very quickly, but its getting it.  So now I have 2 carbs full of fuel and I can't get the little thingymabob out to unstick it. Any suggestions?

Still at it... gas fumes are GOOD.
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: YellowJacket! on November 17, 2007, 09:34:38 PM
You're a Respiratory Therapists nightmare.  ;D  ;D  ;D

David
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on November 17, 2007, 09:38:09 PM
I have NEVER seen so many 'response' posts in a single day on this Forum! did i miss a pic of you in a bikini holding a wrench & smeared with grease or something??  :o :D

Tiff, don't bother with air, it's too dangerous spraying air & fuel everywhere your asking for trouble (air + fuel & a stray ignition source = a very bad day) plus it won't prove anything.

do this instead:

let the bike sit with the petcock on "prime" for ten min or so (you've already done this) then open one of the drain screws (left side round phillips screw next to 10mm hex main jet cover). you should have fuel comming out the drain hose under the bike.  have something ready to catch the fuel (glass pickle jar, etc)  close the drain screw and repeat for the other carb.

this proves weather or not you are filling the carbs with fuel.

--if you get fuel out of both carbs, crank the throttle 10 +  times to fill the accelerator pump & lines with fuel. by then you should get gas squirting into the carbs.

--if you didn't get fuel out of the rear carb, the rear inlet needle is stuck & you will never get the accel nozzels to squirt. the fill from the rear bowl.

--if you got fuel only out of the rear carb then the front inlet needle is stuck.  

--if you didn't get fuel out of either carb then either both needles are stuck and/or the fuel pump is blocked. (you already know you have fuel flowing out the petcock)

--if you rig your pony tank hose right to the inlet (forward) fitting on the fuel pump, fuel should flow right thru it (put a long hose on the out fitting ("T") of the fuel pump to a jar to catch the fuel.  if you don't get fuel out, the pump is clogged/misassembled.

--if you get fuel out of the pump that only leaves the needle as stuck closed.  dap the sides of the bowls & that might dislodge them.

or, remove the choke rod (pull the plastic air dam out of the bike, loosen the screws that hold the choke rod to the plungers & slide the rod out forward & out.  remove the 6 screws holding the carb tops on & gently remove the tops of the carbs (yes with the carbs on the bike)

a magnetic scewdriver helps, & be careful to not drop the screws down the throat of the carb.  if you do, DON"T turn the throttle, just fish them out with a magnet or needle nosed pliers.

once you have the tops out, turn them over, operate the floats & watch to see the needle is moving up & down with the floats.

i'll be home all night & all day tomorrow. i'll pm you my # if you have any questions, just call. (wife doesn't mind, she knows who i am, lol)

YOU CAN DO THIS, WE CAN HELP!
--Lucky
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 17, 2007, 10:47:13 PM
Lucky... WHERE WERE YOU 3 HOURS AGO!  :P Thanks for all the tips... I learned them.. the.. uh.. hard way.
Sorry.. no pic of me in a bikini holding a wrench, but if you guys help me get this bike running I may be able to pull that off for you.
So.. I just have two words... I WIN! Lets see if I can get the problems in line in order of them being found and resolved...
1. Not getting fuel anywhere... traced it to getting fuel TO the carb.. but not IN the carb. Rear carb needle upside down, front carb needle stuck.
2. Have fuel in carbs (and flowing down side of engine through overflow hole) but NO squirt from accellerator nozzle. Take the tops BACK off and pull the rear accellerator nozzle, blow some air through it and its ok. Check to see that fuel is getting TO the accellerator nozzle. It is... put the nozzle back in... presto.. stream of fluid. To the front. Pull accellerator nozzle and the brass bit spits out the copper tube..  yay.. broken solder joint. Go get the soldering gun and go round and round with it... still clogged.
3. While I"m waiting for the nozzle to come down from a billion degrees after soldering it I check to see if fuel is even getting there... uhm... no. Weight is jammed in there. I try to clean out around it and pry it lose with a tiny little tool... not happening. Ask here and right after that check the diagram in the service manual on Lucky's CD. I notice that there is a nipple that feeds that nozzle... hmm... Pull the hose off the nozzle, hook the air up to it... put my finger hovering over the hole and blow. Clean out the hole a little and blow... pry on the weight and blow and POP... it hits me in the finger. Look down in the hole and its all corroded. Clean up the sides of the hole and blow one last time to remove the ball and it pops out and rolls down beside the engine.. yay. Found it pretty quickly, cleaned the hole and replaced everything.. works a charm. Got my now touchable nozzle and pop it in... no dice.
4. Ok... so I already knew this was a problem and was working on it... but it was another step in the process. The nozzle is just jammed... I have no idea why. So I get a single strand of copper wire from a braided #14 wire I have... straighten it up and run it through the tiny hole in the end of the nozzle.. its a perfect fit and it is hard to push through.. then breaks lose.. booyah! Put the nozzle on and it works! WOOO!

So now I've got that part of the carbs done... I tried and tried to crank it but it just wouldn't catch and run more than about 5 seconds. I didn't have a proper pony tank so I'm going to make one tomorrow. I just put the big tank on there and tried and I had gas spitting everywhere and don't know why. I'm tired... but it was a good day.

Thanks everyone for all the super fast responses and help. You are all awesome.
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Night Vision on November 17, 2007, 10:57:06 PM
ah, you're so close... good work on the accel nozzes... but sounds like the carbs are still cruddy..... if you had a sticky float needle and a gunked up ball and weight.... you still have some work to do  :-\
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: arfa vmax on November 18, 2007, 07:21:27 AM
reading all this with interest and dread :o,about to pull my carbs down to fit new needles,was only going to get some spray carb cleaner but will have to find some dip.waiting with baited breath to see the outcome of this,better than any suspence novel,best of luck
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on November 18, 2007, 08:24:01 AM
I have NEVER seen so many 'response' posts in a single day on this Forum! did i miss a pic of you in a bikini holding a wrench & smeared with grease or something??  :o :D

Oh wait, maybe that was H2O...   ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: ironb12s on November 18, 2007, 11:52:20 AM
Tiff, I know you don't want to read this, but I fear another dip of the carbs is needed, with more of them taken apart than the previous 2 times they were dipped.  The fact that you found crud and corrosion indicates that previous attempts were unsuccessful in cleaning them thoroughly, so plan to dip them once more.  Heck, some folks here have had to dip their's 3-4 times, and if this bike had been sitting for as long as you think it was, it would be no surprise.  Gas left anywhere too long will turn to shellac, and gum up the works that it is in.    :(  Plan to disassemble the carbs as much as you can before they are dipped, that way you can verify the installation of jets and needles (this should've been done on a prior dip).

On the bright side, get them dipped, run your check off of the motorcycle with your pony tank, and work everything out before you remount them, you should be golden at that point.  Tank is sealed, petcock is working like it should with no leaks, pump seems to be okay, one more task before she should run.   ;)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 18, 2007, 11:55:05 AM
I have NEVER seen so many 'response' posts in a single day on this Forum! did i miss a pic of you in a bikini holding a wrench & smeared with grease or something??  :o :D

Oh wait, maybe that was H2O...   ;D ;D ;D
HAHAHAHA... nice.
Okie Dokie... update for you guys. Made me a pony tank and hooked it up. The bike will run with the choke on, but it won't idle. I'm thinking lots of carb adjustments to come. It also spits gas all over the place out of the overflow while its running. Again, I'm thinking this is a carb adjustment issue.
I'm going to set everything to the stock settings and go from there.
Thanks everyone for the help.
N_V and ironb12s... for the first soak I took out the weight and ball... for the second soak they wouldn't come out so I left them in... I think thats where my problem came about. I also didn't run anything in the accellerator nozzle.. and didn't have a compressed air gun at the time so nothing really got blown out.  If it keeps acting up I'll pull them and dunk them again. I'm trying to avoid that. For the first soak I took out everything that I could get out.. I mean.. EVERYTHING. I stripped them down to bare shells and a bunch of little bits and bobs everywhere. The second I didn't strip the that far back.
Arfa vmax... go get Berryman's carb dip... it is SO SO SO much easier than trying to clean everything with the spray and a rag. You just load the parts up on the little basket they provide and drop them in the can.. leave them for 30 minutes, then rinse and blow with compressed air... done. My problem was that I didn't do the compressed air bit... so I still have problems. And... my Vision is the spawn of Satan... so everything that can go wrong... will.
Ok.. back to work.
"If it ain't worth doing the hard way.... "   ;D
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: ironb12s on November 18, 2007, 12:11:13 PM
If you have fuel spewing from the overflow tubes, the bowl needles are not sealing.  That means new needle valves and seats, possible bad floats (if they sink in the bowl they won't seal).  Had you rebuilt these carbs, or gone with them as they were with cleaning?  I'd think the latter, based on what you're finding now...  :-\

I just don't see how you're gonna get this problem fixed without pulling the carbs out...  ya, PITA that it is, butt in the long run, worth it.  Shoot, I pulled the carbs (4) out of my Bandit in order to replace the drain screws...and give them a cursory shot with carb cleaner.    ;)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 18, 2007, 01:54:49 PM
I just cleaned the carb, didn't replace any jets or needles. I think I was getting fuel from the overflow because i was holding the tank higher than the level of the carbs, once I lowered it down and let the vacuum suck the fuel out instead of it just flowing the squirt stopped.
Ok... I adjusted the idle screw and the bike idled for quite a while on its own. My findings.. I have a white smoke coming up from where the header connects to the cylinder on the rear cylinder. After idline for a minute or so I cut the bike off and had more white smoke coming from inside the cylinder, floating up through the carb throat. Needless to say I stopped there.  I checked the temp guage and it was barely warm. One thing I did and I may get reamed for this... I drained the coolant by pulling the plug at the bottom of the thermostat housing. I went to put new coolant in and upon taking off the radiator cap... its full of coolant. I thought maybe by running the bike it would pull the coolant down and I could fill it up... no such luck. Now there is probably a big air gap in there that's going to give me major problems. Urgh.
I'm going to go read up on all this before I really kill this bike... yeah yeah... too late now.
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Night Vision on November 18, 2007, 03:01:16 PM
quick!  :o
check your oil... drop some out and check the colour
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on November 18, 2007, 04:11:02 PM
smoke coming from strange places is very normal on a bike that has sat god knows how long.  i just replaced the o-rings on the chrome coolant tubes & have white smoke from the radiator, & sveral other places.  as the engine heats up & the coolant evaporates (which is hard to do) you get smoke from anywhere it sat, even if you whipe it off.

plus you have condensation in the exhaust & engine nooks & crannies which will take time to cook off.

having coolant in the radiator after draining from the bottom bolt is completely normal as well. to properly top off the coolant (which you need to do) leave the cap off (cool engine) and remove the bolt on the metal coolant tube under the airbox (forward front frame where the 2 sensors are)  i used my pony tank to fill the coolant thru this hole, (plus i filled it at the radiator first)  this is the fill spot everyone talks about 'burping' the cooling sustem.

when your done, run the engine till the fan comes on.  then pull the tank & airbox & with the engine off, just crack that bolt again. you may or may not get air then coolant out the bolt.  if you get air, let it push out till it's coolant. if it's  all coolant that's good, tighten the bolt, your done.

--Lucky
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 18, 2007, 04:35:30 PM
N_V... that was something I was worried about. I will check the oil just to be sure.
Lucky... thanks. At first I figured it was a leave or some goo burning up down there with the engine finally getting warm for the first time in at least 4 years.
I'll follow your steps for topping off the coolant. That just puzzled me when it didn't all drain.. but then I read the instructions on draining the system and you have to pull out several bolts to get it all out. From what I saw the coolant looked good.

Oh.. and Dave... I'm everyone's worst nightmare.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: ironb12s on November 18, 2007, 08:01:44 PM
Let's go back for a moment, and review:

You've dipped the carbs twice, once fully disassembled and the second, not so much.  If you had dismantled the carbs the way that they should've been, with any and all rubber and plastic parts removed, you'd have removed the floats and the needles with their seats - there's an o-ring under the seat.  At that point, you would've caught the needles upside down or stuck, and the check ball for the accelerator pump would've been cleaned too.  That makes it obvious that you took the carbs only partially apart in your first try, and is why you've been finding these bits of stickiness, crud, and what have you.   :-\

At this point, that is moot, you've gotten beyond what was missed, at least nominally.  Butt, you should pull the carbs for one more dip, more thorough this time than either of the two previous attempts, before you give this bike a blessing to be roadable.   8)  As was stated in another thread not too distant, these carbs need to be spotless, or they will be trouble.

Don't rush it, you're very close to having the bike, aside from the tank being painted, on the road.  The forum is here to help you, as you've recognized and acknowledged.  If you take the time to do it right the first time, it'll be done in no time at all.   :) 
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 18, 2007, 08:40:29 PM
ironb12s... trust me... I took apart EVERYTHING. I have hundreds of pictures to prove it. You weren't there so please don't tell me what I did and didn't do. When I put the needles back in I just put them in wrong. The carbs sat for a while between the two dips and from the latest dip to now. The reason the bike wouldn't idle is because the idle screw was set too low... because when I took it out to dip the carbs I didn't screw it in far enough.  For someone who hasn't seen their carbs or worked on them for a while you sure are vocal about it. I appreciate your advice but please believe what I tell you.

Anyway... I decided to take the bolt off the metal tube and top off the coolant. I proceeded to shear off the head of the bolt because it is rusted in place. So I pulled off the whole tube and will go to lowes tomorrow and get a tap to drill out and retap the bolt hole. Just another thing. I also noticed when I took the tube off it is rusted and slightly gunked, so I'll clean it up while its off.  The hoses are still very pliable, so I won't replace them. I will however inspect inside of them and if they looked gunked too I'll replace them and flush the system.
After that I decided to call it a day.
Thank you all for your help. The bike will idle now and revs nicely, but is pretty slow to return to idle once the throttle is closed. Any ideas on that? The butterfly valves close quickly but the engine takes a little bit to slow down. Also... once the bike has idled for a while and shut off it doesn't want to fire back up.
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: YellowJacket! on November 18, 2007, 08:49:52 PM
Good job Tiff.  You are getting closer to being a Rider of Vision.
As for the slow to return to idle, it could be your YICS.  Have you checked it for leaks or is it plugged off?

David
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiger on November 18, 2007, 09:30:17 PM
...I decided to take the bolt off the metal tube and top off the coolant. I proceeded to shear off the head of the bolt because it is rusted in place. 
Tiff.

 :) Tiff', I have a spare one, if you want it, PM me your address and I'll send it out to you. Keep going girl, your getting there... 8)

When I'm Stateside, I buy the can's of Berryman's carb cleaner, that I add into the gas tank. It may help to run some of this in a gas mix in your pony tank... ;)

                 
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: kwells on November 18, 2007, 09:31:57 PM
if it IS the YICS...u can just cap them off until you get your new functioning YICS...

Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on November 18, 2007, 10:05:47 PM
Classic leakiy YICS symptom
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: YellowJacket! on November 19, 2007, 05:49:03 AM
Classic leakiy YICS symptom

I'm in a punchy healthcare professional mood.  ;D

Leaky TICS=
YICSorrhea
YICSoresis
LYS - Leaky YICS syndrome

;D

David
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 19, 2007, 06:27:38 AM
Thanks all. I knew you guys would have the answer without any problem. The YICS is one that I got from Tiger that has supposedly been sealed... I'll pull it off and cap the tubes and see what happens. Never know with those things.
Tiger... will I be able to drill and tap out the hole to the exact size of the old one? I may pick up one of those bolt extractors, but this is pretty tight in there. I'll soak it in PB this morning and see what I can do tonight and I'll let you know. Thanks so much for the offer.  Before I'm done half my bike will be your parts.  :D Berryman's carb cleaner... not sure I've seen that in the stores. It took me forever to find the dip. We have the STP and Gummout additive, but I put some of that in my Ninja and it made it worse. I'll run by a few auto parts stores today and see if I can find it. Thanks for the tip.
Dave... too funny.
Thanks guys.
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiger on November 19, 2007, 06:42:44 AM
 :) Tiff', Sorry about the YIC's unit...I know it seemed O.K...However, it looks like the repair may not be as good as I thought :-[ :-[ :-[

 :) You should be able to drill, and using an extractor, remove the stud that is left. Just give it a good day's soak in penetrating fluid, (bare in mind where this part has lived for such a long time). When you install a new bolt, apply a wee bit of anti-seize to the thread's... ;)

 :) I get the Berryman's from WalMart... ;)

                   
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on November 19, 2007, 07:45:04 AM
I've been fixing engines since i was 15, & did it professionaly for 15+ years. Personally i hate bolt extractors. I think they are a last resort because they expand what you are trying to remove, & they are hardened, so if you break one off (& they will snap since they are hardened) you'll never drill it out.

when possable, try these steps first:
1) use PBlaster & soak it. the advantage on this piece is you can soak it from both sides.
2) use heat. a propaine torch can work wonders.

3) in your case, since it sounds like it's snapped off flush, go to your local Northern tool & get a set of reverse drill bits (#150272-1803 for a 15 pce set $25, #150273-1803 for a 29 bit set $35)

you use these bits with the drill in reverse.
drilling a bolt out in reverse gives you the advantage of drilling it out in the direction it naturally backs out, & the heat created by the drilling helps a lot too.

center punch the bolt to get the drill bit started.

Dave had one do the same thing & we just swapped it out.

--Lucky
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 19, 2007, 04:57:48 PM
Tiger... eh... no biggie on the YICS... it looked really well sealed.. and never know, it could be a leak around the hose or something. I'll see what happens when I plug it.
I have a tube of anti-seize ready to go. This whole bike is in a state.. I'm surprised I've only sheared off the heads of 3 bolts thus far... cause nearly every one is rusted. Looks like a trip to the stainless steel fastener section at Lowes is in order.
Lucky... no Northern Tool here... we have Lowes and Home Depot. I'm sure one of them have a set.. its just a matter of where they are hiding them. It has actually snapped off just below the gasket.. so there's no grabbing it with vise grips and twisting.
Thanks for all the help guys, I'll let you know how it works.
Tiff
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: tben on November 19, 2007, 05:07:45 PM
good luck on the bike tiff. :)
i'm just starting my own project and will be dipping the carbs in the next couple of days. this thread has been a gold mine of info. i'm gonna do my best to avoid any mistakes you talk about and just make my own new ones. ;D
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 19, 2007, 05:31:44 PM
Thanks
See.. now that's why I'm here... to be an example of what NOT to do.  :o Kidding... One thing I found really helpful when I did my carbs the first time was to take LOTS of pics. Everytime I took out a bolt I took a pic of it next to where it belonged... and if there was a gasket or o-ring, same deal. I also printed out the exploded parts diagram with all the numbers on it and when I took a part off it got wrapped in a piece of tape with the number printed on it. This was really helpful for the bolts... they all start to look the same after a while, so I grouped them together and wrapped them all up in a tape cocoon and put the number on them. It helped me to not lose any of them as well.
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Brian_Matthewson on November 19, 2007, 07:22:26 PM
Tiff...
You can order online at http://www.northerntool.com and they ship anywhere, even Canada!
Brian
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Night Vision on November 19, 2007, 07:26:57 PM
congrats on getting her running and idling! that's a BIG STEP for sure...

if you think your carbs are spotless, then it's time to eliminate vac leaks, sync, and start tweaking them pilot screws...

after the thermo coupler thingy of course....  ;)   
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: ironb12s on November 19, 2007, 07:45:56 PM
We already know those carbs aren't spotless, and I'd advise NOT using the Berryman's or SeaFoam unless the mixture will be used in less than a couple of days.  Those cleaner additives do a number of the rubber and plastic parts if left to sit for too long...just ask Yamaha-Triples, one fella thought SeaFoam was a fuel stabilizer and the next Spring had to rebuild the cards, a sticky mess due to the o-rings and such "melting".

I DID recently use Berryman's fuel system cleaner on a GS650 I-4 that had been sitting.  Fortunately, the owner rides it in his profession, and we had 2 tankfuls in quick succession thru the carbs in less than a week (3 days)...  The results are stellar, the bike starts right up, and idles smoothly, with no problems anywhere in the range of the throttle.  The idle has been brought down to 1100, from the 2000 he had it set at prior.

I'll be doing the same treatment with Berryman's to an 87 Cavalcade LXE (V-4) very shortly.  It saved us pulling the carbs off of the GS650, it should do the same for the Cade.  Just have to get the bowl drains loose first.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: QBS on November 19, 2007, 07:52:25 PM
Tiff, if the bolt that you talk about shearing off is the "burp" plug in the inline fan sensor tube thingy, take Tiger up on his very generous offer of a replacement.  Messing around trying to salvage your old piece is needless frustration.

BIG TIP FOR ALL:  The next time your burp bolt is in your hand, wrap its threads with teflon tape and declare victory.  You'll never have to struggle with unscrewing a corroded burp bolt again.

ANOTHER BIG TIP FOR ALL: When struggling to unscrew the burp bolt, use the flats cast into the sensor tube thingy to back up/stabilize the tube thingy.

Tiff, your slow return to idle issue sounds very related to poor synchronization.  The hard hot starting sounds related to pilot jet adjustment.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: ironb12s on November 19, 2007, 07:57:44 PM

3) in your case, since it sounds like it's snapped off flush, go to your local Northern tool & get a set of reverse drill bits (#150272-1803 for a 15 pce set $25, #150273-1803 for a 29 bit set $35)

you use these bits with the drill in reverse.


Harbor Freight has the LH Bits:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=38180 (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=38180)  $6

There's one in Pearl, and another Biloxi.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: inanecathode on November 20, 2007, 04:52:03 AM
Kwells, remember our chemistry experiment with various acids and the green bike tank :P

Tiff, i wouldnt worry about the white smoke to be honest. I'm inclined to think its just fuel vapor coming back up out of the intakes, happens to every carburated vehicle i've seen ;)

If i may offer a suggestion: If the bike stays running pretty well (not dieing within 15 seconds of letting go of the throttle) i'd suggest checking for some vacuum leaks (just spray everything vacuum related with wd or carb cleaner, you'll hear it cough/race/etc if its leaking). Then get your long skinny screwdriver handy (what? you dont have a long skinny screwdriver?), loosen the sync rod lock nut, and drive it all over the place. The best tuning i've ever managed to dial in (after kwells helped get a better sync on it ;)) has been on the fly whilst riding. Reaching down and tweaking the sync one way or the other, and pulling over and monkeying with the mixture. It sounds a bit silly but in my experience unless you're putting the bike under load you're not getting a good tune, you're just making it sound right whilst sitting there :)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 20, 2007, 07:43:18 AM
QBS... yes, its that bolt... and there will be no salvaging of this one... unless I melt down all the shavings and reform it... the remainder of the bolt is now partially on the vice, work table, and floor in my shop. I couldn't get my hands on a reverse drill bit set, so I tried the extractor after soaking the bolt in PB blaster over night. That bolt is never coming out... extractor or reverse bits... its never coming out. So it has been drilled out and I think tapped to the same threads. Good tips there... I will be wrapping it in teflon or applying anti-seize.. anything to not have to do this again.
inane... thanks. I was concerned somewhat about the white smoke, but everyone here has my mind more at ease about it now. I will get my can of WD handy and start spraying. I actually do have a long skinny screwdriver... stole is honestly from my father. It comes in very handy. The bike idles very well. I just turn it off after about a minute cause smoke starts coming from interesting places.
Should I get the synch rod right first or the pilot screws? Its like what comes first the chicken or the egg.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on November 20, 2007, 07:47:51 AM
There is nothing wrong with static tuning.

set the pilot screws, adjust the synq & then fine tune the pilots.  when you get your YICS sealed, i'd readjust them again.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: ironb12s on November 20, 2007, 02:54:13 PM
QBS... yes, its that bolt...
<snipped>
 So it has been drilled out and I think tapped to the same threads. Good tips there... I will be wrapping it in teflon or applying anti-seize.. anything to not have to do this again.

Ah, a bit of plumbing knowledge applied?  Good on ya, but ya don't need both anti-seize AND teflon tape.  In fact, pipe joint compound will do the same thing as both combined.  It's brush-on teflon paste.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiger on November 20, 2007, 06:29:08 PM
 :) Tiff'...A complete, ready to plug into your "V", unit will be heading your way in tomorrow's mail. I removed the "burp bolt", cleaned the thread's and put a dab of anti-seize on it...(prior to re-installing it, finger tight!!)...I'll also include a couple of usefull "extra's".......Merry Christmas  :D :D :D :D :D... 8)

                   
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: QBS on November 20, 2007, 10:27:19 PM
Tiger, you are a very good man.  I hope to meet you one day.  All the best.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: inanecathode on November 21, 2007, 02:07:01 AM
I'm much much happier with how any vehicle i've had runs after tuning 'on the fly'
For example, an accelerator pump adjustment. How do you know when you have it right without riding it?
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiger on November 21, 2007, 05:32:01 AM
Tiger, you are a very good man.  I hope to meet you one day.  All the best.

 :-[ Thanks Q, but like everyone here, I help out where I can. Love to meet up with you someday buddy 8) Best wishes to you and your's 8)

                     
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiger on November 21, 2007, 02:34:19 PM
 :) Parts on the way to you, via air mail...duck when you see the plane flyin' low over your place ;D :D :D :D... ;)

                   
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 21, 2007, 04:42:36 PM
Thanks so much Tiger, you rock. Its funny... I have planes fly LOW over my place all the time. At first it kinda freaked me out, but according to google earth my house is near the approach path to the landing strip at the military base. Yay. So anyway... if I hear one pass over I'll run out and look for my package!
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 27, 2007, 10:40:50 AM
I figured instead of starting a new thread about my progress I would just keep this one going. Since I'm waiting for the parts to arrive from Tiger I can't do much toward getting the carbs synched cause I can't run the bike... So I decided to start sanding some stuff down. Oh man, what a mess. You may have read earlier in this thread that I tried to remove the paint from the plastics using a paint stripper only to find it was a plastic stripper as well. I set out to do a little correcting and get the remaining paint off. Here's a pic of a side panel with before and after sides of a good sanding with 80 grit to remove the paint and smooth the rough edges. I really hope you can tell which is which.
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/Tiffanator/Vision%20Restoration/sanding1.jpg)
The shiny spots on the sanded side are gouges in the plastic that I will have to fill in with body filler and sand smooth. You can see the nice shiny Star Silver beneath where the Vision logo was.
Next up was the front fender. No paint stripper was used on it... only 80 grit sandpaper. I started sanding and noticed a nice pattern emerging... racing stripe anyone?
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/Tiffanator/Vision%20Restoration/racingstripe.jpg)
The blue is paint and the white/yellow is the bare plastic. The shape of the fender does lend itself well to a potential racing stripe paint job.
Last up was the tank. The paint has already been stripped, I just had to sand down the epoxy putty. I started with hand sanding, figured out very quickly that wasn't going to work, used the random orbital sander, no dice, so moved to the dremel with a sanding bit, oh yeah... made quick work of the putty. I sanded it down close to the bare metal and finished off with a hand sander. I don't have the whole tank done yet cause... with my luck... I hit a few spots that the putty didn't set close up against the tank, and they started leaking... but very... very tiny amounts. A little more putty and they were fixed. It did however look like an indoor snowstorm...
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/Tiffanator/Vision%20Restoration/snowbike1.jpg)
Dust everywhere. And Dave.. before you die of an asthma attack... this photo is for you...
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/Tiffanator/Vision%20Restoration/snowbike2.jpg)
I did use breathing protection the whole time I was sanding. The eye protection helped some... but since they weren't goggles I still did get a little dust in my eyes.. but nothing like what would have happened without anything.

So that's what I've been up to. Didn't do a whole lot over Thanksgiving cause I was too stuffed full of turkey and dressing to get off the couch.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: YellowJacket! on November 27, 2007, 11:20:14 AM
LOL...  Fell out of my chair when I saw the last picture Tiff.  The whole while I was reading, I was thinking "I hope she is wearing a respirator".  ;D

You made my day!  It was the break I needed form my massive "final paper due in three days with out a clue" binge that I have been on today.

Take Care,

David
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: h2olawyer on November 27, 2007, 02:20:45 PM
These posts are so entertaining!  Thanks, Tiff!!!

David - Those three day paper binges can be done in a day - research included.  Been there, done that (successfully) several times.  Remember - Never put off until tomorrow what can be done next week!

H2O
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 27, 2007, 03:19:56 PM
Glad I could give you guys a giggle. Dave... you can do it.. I once wrote a 22 page paper in a span of about 3 days. Not fun, not fun at all. I did many 4-5 page papers in a few hours.. those aren't fun either.
Yes, wore the respirator.. didn't fancy odd colored boogers for days.
Next question... is there a special hose that has to be used for the vent lines off the carb and fuel tank or will any plastic hose of that size work? I'm going to replace them but need to know if the stuff from Lowe's will work or if I need to order special stuff. Although it would be in my typical style to put the wrong stuff on there and end up with a melty goo pile under the bike after a few days.   :D
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: louthepou on November 27, 2007, 03:23:06 PM
Thumbs up to Tiff!!!
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on November 27, 2007, 04:25:53 PM
the hoses were originaly clear, & i'm sure you can still but the proper ones, but neither of my bikes have them.  no one has ever given me a good reason for them, but someone once mentioned them being added to the design by "safety nazi's".

i suppose they may, perhaps, cut down on the evap of fuel in the bowls durring down time, avoiding the need to prime the carbs...dunno...

someone once told me all good body work is done naked....   8) :o ;)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: inanecathode on November 27, 2007, 06:27:47 PM
Two words, surplus gasmask.
It's what i use for painting, sanding, fiberglass work, etc. It's both eye protection and vapor protection. Plus they're only 20-30 bucks or so at an army surplus store. If its good enough for nerve gas it's good enough for sanding residue :D
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Night Vision on November 27, 2007, 06:49:13 PM
just get regular clear vinyl hose at HD or wherever... it'll turn yellow in awhile (just the the OEM ones  :D ) guess that means they are doing their job and venting noxious fuel vapors towards the people behind ya  :D
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: YellowJacket! on November 27, 2007, 07:44:52 PM
These posts are so entertaining!  Thanks, Tiff!!!

David - Those three day paper binges can be done in a day - research included.  Been there, done that (successfully) several times.  Remember - Never put off until tomorrow what can be done next week!

H2O

Glad I could give you guys a giggle. Dave... you can do it.. I once wrote a 22 page paper in a span of about 3 days. Not fun, not fun at all. I did many 4-5 page papers in a few hours.. those aren't fun either.
Yes, wore the respirator.. didn't fancy odd colored boogers for days.
Next question... is there a special hose that has to be used for the vent lines off the carb and fuel tank or will any plastic hose of that size work? I'm going to replace them but need to know if the stuff from Lowe's will work or if I need to order special stuff. Although it would be in my typical style to put the wrong stuff on there and end up with a melty goo pile under the bike after a few days.   :D

DONE!!  In record time!  (11:30am to 7:30pm)

14 page paper (not including cover sheet and 2 pages of citations) AND.... 14 slide PowerPoint presentation!

Now, if y'all will scuse me, I have a rather large margarita to drink in celebration.  ;D

David
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Rick G on November 28, 2007, 02:33:55 AM
Theres alot to be said for eye and breathing protection while sanding and painting .  In 1976 I worked for a tractor  dealer ,(this was before OSHA really got going) one of my duties  was  to sand and paint  used tractor. I  had goggles to protect my glasses, but no breathing protection other than a shop rag wrapped around my face . After finishing the construction yellow paint job , I discovered that the inside of my nose was painted yellow and very sticky (if you like that part wait for what comes next )   so I wound toilet paper around the erasor  on a pencil and dunked it in paint thinner and used it as a giant Qtip to get the paint out of my nose. Everyone in the shop kept asking  if I wanted a cigerette!! it was a week before I could smell any thing but thinner. The final straw was when  a 6 ft. tyre iron slipped and hit me between the eyes  and parted my glasses , knocking me out in the process . When I came to , I turned in my time and packed up my tools. Didn't seem like I'd survive there long!
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: inanecathode on November 28, 2007, 08:11:10 AM
Paint thinner on an eraser, hard to beat that rick :o

As long as i dont have an open flame i can work in my 10ftx12ft shed with an open can of carb dip and carb cleaner spray all over for as long as i want as long as my mask straps are tight :)
Dont smell a single thing other than fresh air (and a smidge of what i think is teargas residue on the inside of the mask :P)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 28, 2007, 01:06:22 PM
Hey guys, thanks for all the tips.
Tiger... got my parts.. THANKS! That was fast... and I knew exactly what they were when I opened the mailbox and saw a big red maple leaf.
Lucky... I alreaday have some clear vinyl hose, so I'll stick them on there for good measure.
N_V... thanks, I'll do that. Maybe the noxious fumes will let people behind me know that there's a bike in front of them... see... safety measure.
Inane... hmm... didn't think of that. I was watching a TV show and they had the full face gas mask looking respirators and I was thinking I need one. May make a trip to the army surplus store around here.
Dave... GOOD JOB! You go man... now you need to proofread and edit your paper several times, then have other people do it too, then re-write it making the corrections. Or do like me and just turn it in without ever reading it.  ;D
Rick... toilet paper and paint thinner? Geez man, thats hard core. Bet sitting down to eat just wasn't the same for a while after that. Good way to diet... take a big whiff of a nice hot pepperoni pizza and get a nose full of paint thinner, not very appetizing.
Thanks all... going to put the parts Tiger sent me on tonight and get back to work synching the carbs.
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: OregonTom on November 29, 2007, 10:09:43 AM
As a newbie Vision owner, I have really enjoyed this post Tiff. But most of all, good on ya for taking on this project and bringing it back to life. Very impressive tenacity.

Tom
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 29, 2007, 02:32:05 PM
Hi Tom, I hope I haven't scared you too much with the problems I've been having with my Vision, its really not that bad, I just do everything the hard way.

Ok guys, another quick question. I'm looking at ordering new bearings for the front wheel... in another post Tiger stated that the bearing ID was #6302ZZ... at Dennis Kirk they have #6302-2RS. They are the same size, one is shielded, one is sealed. Neither Dennis Kirk nor JC Whitney have the 6302ZZ bearing. What is the difference? Do I HAVE to use the ZZ or can I use the 2RS? Not a big deal really, I was just ordering a fuel filter from Dennis Kirk and wanted to get the bearings while I was at it instead of having to purchase and pay to ship from another place.
Thanks
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Aelwulf on November 29, 2007, 03:13:42 PM
These posts are so entertaining!  Thanks, Tiff!!!

David - Those three day paper binges can be done in a day - research included.  Been there, done that (successfully) several times.  Remember - Never put off until tomorrow what can be done next week!

H2O

Glad I could give you guys a giggle. Dave... you can do it.. I once wrote a 22 page paper in a span of about 3 days. Not fun, not fun at all. I did many 4-5 page papers in a few hours.. those aren't fun either.
Yes, wore the respirator.. didn't fancy odd colored boogers for days.
Next question... is there a special hose that has to be used for the vent lines off the carb and fuel tank or will any plastic hose of that size work? I'm going to replace them but need to know if the stuff from Lowe's will work or if I need to order special stuff. Although it would be in my typical style to put the wrong stuff on there and end up with a melty goo pile under the bike after a few days.   :D

DONE!!  In record time!  (11:30am to 7:30pm)

14 page paper (not including cover sheet and 2 pages of citations) AND.... 14 slide PowerPoint presentation!

Now, if y'all will scuse me, I have a rather large margarita to drink in celebration.  ;D

David

Congrats. :) Those kinda papers are a pain, but if a professor made me do PowerPoint with it I may go find a tower with a high-powered rifle. :P Enough of that to deal with at work.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Aelwulf on November 29, 2007, 03:19:43 PM
Hi Tom, I hope I haven't scared you too much with the problems I've been having with my Vision, its really not that bad, I just do everything the hard way.

Ok guys, another quick question. I'm looking at ordering new bearings for the front wheel... in another post Tiger stated that the bearing ID was #6302ZZ... at Dennis Kirk they have #6302-2RS. They are the same size, one is shielded, one is sealed. Neither Dennis Kirk nor JC Whitney have the 6302ZZ bearing. What is the difference? Do I HAVE to use the ZZ or can I use the 2RS? Not a big deal really, I was just ordering a fuel filter from Dennis Kirk and wanted to get the bearings while I was at it instead of having to purchase and pay to ship from another place.
Thanks
Tiff.

Now ya have me a bit curious.  I just got my new front wheel bearings from the Stadium Yamaha site yesterday (only about 4-5 business days, not bad) and although they had the microfiche to choose parts it'd be interesting to see which they had and sent.

I'll be studying your tank threads Tiff, my back-up has started getting a bubble so I now get to add that to my immediate list. :-\ Since I tend to do things the hard way as well it'd be good to read after someone like-minded. ;)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Aelwulf on November 29, 2007, 03:50:26 PM
Tiff, your slow return to idle issue sounds very related to poor synchronization.

If it's not the YICS I'd second this one.  After I moved out here and did my first poor excuse of a sync job I wound up with a severe problem of slow return to idle.  I redid the sync with the mixture& idle screws and sync rod (after actualy screwing in the rear screw this time :P ) and once synced the slow return went away.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiger on November 30, 2007, 07:29:06 AM
I'm looking at ordering new bearings for the front wheel... Tiff.

Tiff'...These are what I use... http://cgi.ebay.ca/Yamaha-XZ550-1982-to-1986-Front-Wheel-Bearings-Kit_W0QQitemZ110188274052QQihZ001QQcategoryZ35601QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

Have you got the coolant in and the "V" runnin' yet ???

Next installment please... ;)

                     
8).......TIGER....... 8)
                     
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 30, 2007, 09:34:24 AM
Ok... chapter.. uh... what chapter are we on?  Anyway, hooked up my new temp sensor/burp bolt housing from Tiger last night and topped off the fluid in the system. While I was at it my coolant bottle had some serious cracking in it so I coated it with a layer of epoxy to hold it over til I can either get a new one or figure out how to repair.
Next task at hand was fixing where a hose nipple broke off the carb vent T-fitting. I found Lucky's guide to fixing it and had picked up some 1/8" brass tube at a hobby shop. I grabbed the fitting with a pair of vice grips, twisted back and forth to loosen it, and SNAP! the fitting pulled away leaving copper tube stuck in the carb. Well dang it. Moving on... I drilled out the hole, heated the brass tube and slid it in... and it still slides around in the fitting some. No bother, I'll lace it with super glue when I get some. I'm thinking of fabricating a little bit of a bulge or barb on the end of the rod using some epoxy putty so that the hose will stay in place, we'll see how that works out. I still need to get a little bit smaller drill bit than I was using and drill a hole in the new tube for the 90 degree fitting, my limited supply of drill bits didn't include that, must steal it from dad.
So now I have copper tube stuck in the carb, I'm going to try to pull it out with some needle nose vice grips cause I really really don't want to have to drill it out of there. I shot it with a little PB blaster and let it soak, I'll try to get it out tonight.
After all of that I decided to test the rest of my gas tank to see how well the epoxy putty held. After finding 2 spots of very very slight leaks after sanding I wanted to test the other places I sanded for leaks.. and... yeah they leak. So I patched them up again with the putty, making note that I cannot sand them down flush with the bare metal, I'm going to have to leave a thin layer of the epoxy over the top and just feather it out to match the rest. I really have no idea why the POR didn't seal those from the inside, unless my sanding moved the epoxy and cracked the POR, which worries me greatly that now the POR is compromised and I'll be seeing more rust forming. Is it possible to put another layer of POR over the top of this one? Probably not.
So that's how I finished my night.
Tonight I'm going to finish the T-fitting, hook the coolant bottle back up, make a manometer or whatever that thing is, fire up the bike and see if I can't get the carbs synced. Oh... and check the YICS for leaks.

Oh.. and thanks for the link Tiger.. ordered front wheel bearings, fork seals and neck bearings from them. Looks like I have my work cut out for me in the coming weeks.
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: louthepou on November 30, 2007, 10:20:47 AM
Hey Tif, I'm sure I can find a free overflow coolant reservoir, yours for the price of shipping. Let me know if that can help,

Lou
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: tben on November 30, 2007, 12:28:57 PM
Tiff, way to persevere! 8) ;D ;

I know this is a little late in coming but what do you guys think of soldering those holes in the tank? I'm sure brazing would be better but without the equipment for thats kinda tough. With a good prep job couldn't solder hold up? Maybe solder some wire in their then take it down flush with dremel. Its just an idea but it seems like it could solve a lot of hassle other than having to re-por.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiger on November 30, 2007, 01:41:35 PM
Oh.. and thanks for the link Tiger.. ordered front wheel bearings, fork seals and neck bearings from them. Tiff

 8) Your welcome Tiff'. I've used these guy's for the same part's several time's and found them great to deal with. Infact, I just took delivery, a couple of day's ago, of two set's of fork seal's... ::) One set for LilBlaster's recently acquired '83 and a spare set ;)

tben...Brazing would be better but soldering could work, just depends on the size of the hole's that your trying to repair... :-\

                       
8)........TIGER....... 8)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on November 30, 2007, 02:36:43 PM
tben, I actually did try soldering with very little luck. I have a high temp soldering gun cause I do stained glass work as well. It seemed like with an area as large as the tank the heat dissipated before it got hot enough for the solder to stick to it. I was able to get a few places to stick, but on a large scale it didn't work well. Also I'm trying to cover some pretty gaping holes in this tank. The putty works, I just sanded it down too far and the fuel penetrated around the edges of the patch. Lesson learned... I'll leave some putty and smooth things out with body filler.
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: kwells on November 30, 2007, 03:13:01 PM
and after you fill up the holes send me a blood sample and I can test it at work for ya.  Ever wanted to know how much lead is in your blood?
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Rick G on November 30, 2007, 04:10:23 PM
Tiff, its really difficult to solder air or rust.   If I were to try soldering arusty gas tank  I'd use a tinners iron  to run a layer of solder on all the areas around  the holes . Then I'd tin some brass sheet, thtas cut to size  and apply it solder side to the tank and go over it with the iron . finally I go around the edges and  seal it up. 
A tinners iron is a large copper that is used by sheet metal mechanics , its heated over a gas flame . Most soldering irons just aren't suitable  for sheet metal work
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: inanecathode on November 30, 2007, 11:15:27 PM
I found most the time its because its the wrong kind of solder. Acid core solder is the only solder that will work, and it does work, but you really need a torch of some sort.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Rick G on December 01, 2007, 02:12:01 AM
Inane , the heat from a torch  is too intense for sheet metal that thin, it will either cause it to buckle or burn up, thats why tin knockers (sheet metal mechanics )  use  a soldering copper or tinners iron . You don't want solder with any kind of core  you want bar solder  and a seperate acid flux .  Just ask any old tin knocker (like me)
It you have ever watched an old body man work lead , its amazing he waves the torch back and forth and  moves the lead around with a paddle , but he dosen't have rust or air.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: inanecathode on December 01, 2007, 05:13:37 AM
Huh, learn something every day :)
I just used a pencil torch and acid core i had sitting around, worked alright for me :o
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 01, 2007, 03:27:48 PM
Ok, so the saga continues as the plot thickens. I happeded to go to Lowe's with dad yesterday and snuck in some drill bits and a fuel filter into the buggy with his stuff.. score some free bits. Last night i finished up the vent fitting and got it in place, hooked up the pony tank, primed the system and tried to get her started. She will run for a few then die. The last time I had choke on pretty much wide open. She fired up and the RPMs shot up. I backed off the choke and she idled a bit. Gave it a little fuel and it was slow to return to idle, gave a little more fuel and recieved a beauty of a flame shooting out of the rear carb and she died... but the flame didn't. I had to blow that out... nice. Then tons of white smoke poured from the rear cylinder up through the carb.  So I shut it down for the night.
So what's the plan now? Well... today... I WAS going to pull the carbs, strip and dip them, pull the YICS and use compressed air to check for leaks, and pull the spark plug from the rear cylinder and see what it looks like. That was before I got roped into helping my parents and brother fix his house up for a christmas party he is having. Now its 2:30, I just got home and I'm tired. So maybe after a short break I'll get back to work.
A fire extinguisher is now on my list of things to buy for the shop... I think I may keep the water hose handy for next time.
Tiff aka "Flamethrower"  :o
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: kwells on December 01, 2007, 03:41:21 PM
Tiff,
I didnt go back and reread where u were with your 'tuning'.  Is your sync rod set as neutral as possible?  It may be that you have one of your carbs still a bit gunked up but you will have to see if you can get your mixture screws to let her run a bit to determine.  Also, you can see if your accelerator nozzles are squirting when u turn the throttle.  Can check that when the airbox  is off and looking down into the carb throats.  By now you have probably checked all these things but they are always a good thing to recheck.
Also if you have your YICS ports capped off it will help with getting it running
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Night Vision on December 01, 2007, 05:34:02 PM
the white smoke coming up through the rear carb could be unburned fuel vapor.

if the carbs are way out of sync, you may be loading up the rear cylinder and fueling the flame thrower.

cap the YICS ports and check your sync when the bike is running at idle. Eliminate carb sync as your problem.

a new rear plug wouldn't hurt either
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 01, 2007, 08:30:14 PM
Checking in while taking a break from working. Drained and pulled the carbs, stripped them and they are dipping at the moment.
Pulled the YICS off and it leaked from everywhere. I cracked it open and tried to reseal using the goo that was in there, no dice. I got my old YICS and it was sealed around the edges but not chamber to chamber, so I have one that leaks all over and one that leaks internally. The one from Tiger has a gasket, but I'll pick up some new gasket material and that hobby poxy Lucky talks about on his site and have a go at repairing it, in the meantime I'll just cap the lines.
Took out the rear spark plug and it was black and seemed to have gas, oil, and I swear there was a tiny shard of metal on it. Time to drain the oil and check for metal bits. I really hope this engine isn't eating itself. There was some crud around the plug opening so I'm hoping it just picked something up there.
I'm sure the carbs are way out of synch, I just need to get it to run long enough to synch them. Hopefully this dip will do it.
Thanks everyone, we're getting there.. unless I find metal in the oil. Bad.
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: YellowJacket! on December 01, 2007, 11:05:54 PM
Tiff,

I have repaired 4 YICS over the last couple years.  The latest one I am working on belongs to Lucky for his Cafe bike.  I followed the instructions on Luckys site and it worked out well.  I used red RTV and rubberized paper gasket material.
MAke sure you sand down the cut sides of the YICS chamber really good to get a good seal.  I just taped a sheet of 80 grit to my garage floor and sanded in circles.  Cleaned it up with some 120 grit.
I put a bead on all contact areas on both chambers on both sides and sandwiched the gasket between them and clamped it tight.  Works like a charm.

Good Luck!

David

PS, you need to turn this post into a blog or something.  For prosperity.  I think its the longest running ROV thread.  You're famous.  ;D

D
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on December 01, 2007, 11:52:39 PM
PS, you need to turn this post into a blog or something.  For prosperity.  I think its the longest running ROV thread.  You're famous.  ;D

it's 10th out of 61558 posts
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Rick G on December 02, 2007, 01:10:54 AM
The first YIKS  box I did  did the usual sanding  and made a gasket .  After that I abandoned the gasket and used  Three bond  around the whole  mateing surface . You can use Yamaha bond or Honda bond , same stuff. Its what factorys use on centre cases during assembly. Its great for lots of things , I even  used it to repair a crack in the bottom of the buss pan I use as a drain pan.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 02, 2007, 08:39:19 AM
8 Pages! Oh man. I'll go down in history as Most Troublesome Member Ever! YAY!
Anyway, thanks for the tips on the YICS box. I'll pick up some gasket material and RTV today. I'll try both methods since I have two boxes, we'll see which one works for me.
Have to go help the parents put up Christmas decorations this morning, so I'll report in after working this afternoon or tonight.
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 02, 2007, 08:05:49 PM
Well everyone... at this point I'm pretty sure... that these carbs are going to be the death of me. Upon further reading about the carbs last night I learned that I know absolutely nothing about these. I did not know that there were two jets deeply hidden within the carb body, so they didn't get removed when I dipped the carbs. I removed them tonight and shot them with some carb cleaner and put them back in.. not wanting to lose them. However, on the front carb, the screw that plugs one of the jets on the very bottom of the carb is very securely stuck in place. I mean... soaked it in PB for a day and got it with a huge flathead screwdriver and it didn't budge. As hard as I tried... the edges have become somewhat rounded so I can't get a really tight grip on it.. I know.. bull... china shop... that's me.

So... in hopes that the jet in there was happy as a little lark, I mounted the carbs back on the bike. Hooked everything up... hung the pony tank to prime the carbs... nope.. nothing. No fuel getting to the carbs. I pulled the tops off and wiggled and jiggled and finally got the needle behaving how I wanted it. Put the tops back on.. they filled with fuel, brilliant. I twisted the throttle until my wrist hurt... nope... nothing. So I pulled the top off the front carb, took out the accellerator nozzle... obviously no fuel getting to it. Hooked up a little air to the hose and popped out the weight and ball, neither were stuck... and its bone dry in there.
At that point I put everything back together and walked out. I really have no idea what I've done. And whatever I've done I'm pretty consistent cause both carbs are behaving the same. I dipped them and shot EVERY passage over and over with compressed air... even accidentally shot a few bolt holts and got a whoosh of air back in my face. I'm at a loss.
So I leave you tonight as a failure. I'll pick up with this another day, I'm off to study the carb diagram and read everything I can find.
Tiff aka Constipated Carbs.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: kwells on December 02, 2007, 08:10:33 PM
at this point you may need to use an easy out to get that jet out.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: YellowJacket! on December 02, 2007, 08:17:43 PM
Did you open the vent on the pony tank?

Also, you may want to tap the carbs a little just in case the floats are stuck.

David
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiger on December 02, 2007, 09:19:15 PM
 :) Tiff'...Your turn for a shot or two 8) Can I recommend a good single malt scotch... 8)

               
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on December 02, 2007, 10:54:16 PM
Ok, the slotted screws under the carbs are covers for the pilot jets.  use a tight fitting screwdriver or impact driver to get them out.  if they are too rounded, recut or cut a new slot with a dremil. if that doesn't work, cut flats on the sides of the head with a dremil & grip them with new, small vice grips.

worst case: drill a small hole in the center of the screw, tap 4-40, install a 4-40 nut onto a 4-40 bolt, remove 90% of the head on the bad screw.  install the 4-40 bolt, tighten nut, (nut acts as a jam nut) & turn out bolt & screw.

once the cover screw is out, use a WELL FITTING small screwdriver to remove the pilot jets.  blow them out, clean them out, put everything back together.

again worst case scenario, i can fix you up with replacement carb bottoms.  pm me your address, i'll send out new cover screws anyway, sounds like you'll need them.

What is the lesson learned the Night Vision (hard) way boys & girls?

Too much torque can be a bad thing!  don't gorilla tighten those nuts & bolts, 'just enough' is enough.

--Lucky
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Rick G on December 03, 2007, 12:39:24 AM
I've never seen a pilot jet cover screw I could'nt  get out , but pilot jets are a differant story. I did a set  for a Visionary in New England, Police officer I think. Maybe Motorplow. The pilot jet would not come out with with rust buster , a screw driver or a reverse twist drill . I ended up selling  him a carb bottom . Sometimes the  minerals in the water, that always finds its way in , causes a nasty version of galvanic corsion, that litteraly welds the two dissimilar metals together.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: YellowJacket! on December 03, 2007, 12:44:10 PM
Years of varnish build up will do it too. ;D

David
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 03, 2007, 02:35:44 PM
Dave... I tapped on the tops of the carbs, lightly to not damage them and still wasn't getting any flow. I made sure the pony tank was vented. Once I took the tops off and jiggled them around a little the needles broke free and both carbs have filled with fuel now. Its just not getting to the accellerator nozzles.
Tiger... I think I need it... or better yet.. I think the bike needs it, maybe it will loosen up and not be such a pain.   :P
Lucky... thank you thank you thank you! I used my biggest flat head to try to turn them, the fit was tight, I just couldn't push down hard enough to keep the blade in the slot. I soaked it in PB and let it sit, then put the screwdriver back on it and popped the end of the screwdriver with a hammer before trying to turn it. Looks like I'm going to have to try cutting a new slot with a dremel. I was really trying to salvage the bolt, but it doesn't look good for it.  PM will be sent shortly.
Rick, the pilot jets came right out, and most cover screws came out.. its just this one that wants to be difficult.  I was suprised that more bolts weren't stuck on these carbs considering the length of time they have sat and the condition they were in. So much dirt and grime.
Doesn't matter what has caused it to get stuck... its STUCK.  >:( But now that Lucky is setting me up with new screws... oh.. it WILL come out. That screw has until 6pm to live.. then its MINE.
In the meantime I have to drain the oil to check for any metal bits, then I'll probably pull the starter just to make sure I don't have any oil leaking into it. After that fill it all back up with fresh oil. The spark plugs are new but I'll still pull them and give them a good cleaning.
Last really stupid question for the hour. I have read and read and read... I know there are adjustment screws, one of which is at the base of the carbs right above where they go into the boots.. right? It is a long skinny thing that has a spring on it. Now, the other one.. where is it? I'm thinking maybe its the little set screw looking thing that is right below the venturi set screw. Am I close? Or is there another?
Thanks
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: kwells on December 03, 2007, 02:39:55 PM
Tiff,

(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g56/kwellzz/vision/sideview_carbdiagram.jpg)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 03, 2007, 02:48:39 PM
kwells... thanks so much. A picture is worth a thousand words. That's the screw I was talking about that I was pretty sure was a adjusting screw... thanks for verifying that. Is there another one somewhere?
Thanks.
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: kwells on December 03, 2007, 03:06:48 PM
that's the only adjustment screw...but there is always that sync rod to contend with...
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 03, 2007, 05:02:10 PM
Yay.. thanks. I was stumped about another one. Yes, I'm dreading the sync rod. If you think I'm posting a lot now.. just wait til I try to sync them.  :o
Thanks for all your help.
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 04, 2007, 10:29:27 AM
I am pleased to announce that with some PB blaster, a screwdriver, and some.. uh.. persuasive taps with a hammer, the screw has been removed, jet pulled out and cleaned, and system put back together with anti-seize on the threads. Yay. I accomplished something. I'm still having trouble with the needle sealing off the fuel supply into the bowl, I don't know why. I have the needles in correctly, there are no wear marks on the ends of them, and everything is clean. What am I missing?
Thanks all for the help.
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: kwells on December 04, 2007, 11:27:49 AM
maybe u just need a couple not so used needle valves
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: arfa vmax on December 04, 2007, 04:21:24 PM
hi tiff  i am new to these bikes but have just stripped and rebuilt my carbs with new float seats and needles.  are the o rings round the seats good and have you checked the float hights,both could cause petrol leaking  arfa
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: inanecathode on December 04, 2007, 07:04:24 PM
I second the o-rings. Actually, the ones on the drain screws are what i've had problems with. Mine constantly leaked fuel, and i think so did dave's (one of the daves, not sure which dave) did as well due to a crappy oring around the drain screw.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 04, 2007, 07:59:05 PM
Hey guys, thanks for the suggestions. The O-rings around the seats and the drain screw are new, no leaks there.  The funny thing is that the needles look great, but I guess I'm just not looking close enough.
Thanks
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: kwells on December 04, 2007, 10:08:56 PM
i think it's the internals in this case...spring loaded doo-hicky
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: YellowJacket! on December 06, 2007, 12:08:14 AM
These posts are so entertaining!  Thanks, Tiff!!!

David - Those three day paper binges can be done in a day - research included.  Been there, done that (successfully) several times.  Remember - Never put off until tomorrow what can be done next week!

H2O

Glad I could give you guys a giggle. Dave... you can do it.. I once wrote a 22 page paper in a span of about 3 days. Not fun, not fun at all. I did many 4-5 page papers in a few hours.. those aren't fun either.
Yes, wore the respirator.. didn't fancy odd colored boogers for days.
Next question... is there a special hose that has to be used for the vent lines off the carb and fuel tank or will any plastic hose of that size work? I'm going to replace them but need to know if the stuff from Lowe's will work or if I need to order special stuff. Although it would be in my typical style to put the wrong stuff on there and end up with a melty goo pile under the bike after a few days.   :D

DONE!!  In record time!  (11:30am to 7:30pm)

14 page paper (not including cover sheet and 2 pages of citations) AND.... 14 slide PowerPoint presentation!

Now, if y'all will scuse me, I have a rather large margarita to drink in celebration.  ;D

David

YEEEEEHHHHHAAAAAAA!  Being the overachiever that I am, I ended up with a 100% on the paper!  The next closest grade was an 86.  Finished out my leadership class with a 4.0 with only one assignment to go.

And now back to our regularly scheduled tiffinator post.  ;D

David
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: h2olawyer on December 06, 2007, 12:15:36 AM
Just proves that smart people own Visions!  Congrats, Dave!

H2O
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: smknjoe1964 on December 06, 2007, 01:34:02 AM
some off the carbs Ive done had those spring loaded needle valve tops on em .I sprayed carb cleaner from a can right on the top of them and let them soak and made sure they worked well with little resistance when they spring back up before I put em back in .You did pull the needle seat vavle and inspect the o ring ?
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiger on December 07, 2007, 10:39:07 PM
 :) Hey Tiff...Look wot N_V found...

http://ridersofvision.net/forum/zindex.php?topic=7700.0

...Landed on your doorstep for a wee bit less than $100.00 8)

         
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: YellowJacket! on December 08, 2007, 05:45:01 AM
heh heh heh...  More fumes for tiff to inhale.  (Body Filler) ;D

David
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 08, 2007, 05:01:58 PM
Ooooo... veeeery interesting. First thing that happens is a red flag goes up on why its so cheap?  Looking at the pic looking down into it looks like it has rust, doesn't mean its bad rust, but you never know with the corners.  Next, that dent looks pretty nasty. Probably won't be pulling that out with the Ding King.
Thanks for the link guys, but I'm pretty wary of a tank that usually goes for 350-500 bucks that's buy it now for 17.99. As sweet as it looks I just don't want to end up with another problem tank to fix... although I could fix it then keep it in stock for the next poor sucker who gets a bike with Satan Tank like mine. If I could see this tank... or maybe read the description... I would feel much better about it... but knowing what I know now.. that little bit of rust in the tank means there ARE pinholes somewhere, its just the paint may be covering them up right now.  :-\
That and... I just bought christmas presents for everyone and I'm broke.. haha. Dang it.
Oh.. and I still do get to work with body filler dave... hahaha... good times. 
Tiff
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 08, 2007, 05:07:41 PM
Oh.. and Dave... CONGRATS on the paper. Good job man. You should feel very proud.
Ok... I sent the guy a question asking if the tank had any holes or rust. We'll see what he says. I put the description through babelfish and it said the tank was stainless steel inside.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: inanecathode on December 08, 2007, 05:18:57 PM
I think my reading comprehension isnt where it should be, but whats wrong with the tank you have? I pulled several holes in the tank thats on my green bike with my stud gun (giant holes, like 1/8th of an inch around) and just used a generic 5 minute clear epoxy i got from ace to seal it over. After slathering on a layer of the epoxy and letting it cure, i went about sealing the tank with por. Working fine to this day.
I also had some major rustage with my project tank (that i may or may not have up for sale thats already pored, sanded to the metal) that i was able to patch with the same clear epoxy.

If you still can't fix the tank you have, i have the one i mentioned sitting in my shed sanded to the metal (and incedentally partially clear coated) pin holes sealed, and pored, with a cap and key, and without a single dent or damage of any kind other than very slight surface rust that honestly i'd just paint over anyway.

Lemme know what you want to do. 
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: GT @ oh. on December 09, 2007, 09:04:01 AM
Question here......got a tank here that looks to have been lined has a silverey color sealer (POR?)......but its not smooth..... like its been sealed over serious rust......and..... it has rusted out at the rear corners.....my q is... Is there any chance of stripping sealer and rust out of this tank or am I up against what you were Tiff?
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: kwells on December 09, 2007, 01:01:22 PM
GT if that were my tank and it was sealed over rust...I'd probably do nothing until the rust posed a problem.  Most likely it is POR15 but I believe caswell has a similar product. Both are hard to remove once dried.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 09, 2007, 01:41:40 PM
Inane... if my assumptions are correct then yes, that tank is painfully similar to what I have going with mine... however I haven't heard back from the seller, so it may just be some minor surface rust inside the tank with no pinholes. If that is the case then a quick once over with the POR-15 tank sealer kit would solve the problem for good... and someone could have a good tank for a cheap price.  I'm really hoping that I finally have mine fixed... it holds fuel now so that's a really good thing. Its just a matter of sanding down the epoxy putty so it looks good but doesn't allow leaks again.
GT... the sealer in my tank appears to be kinda rough because there was still some rust in the tank when I put it in. So far it is holding up with no problems, now its only been in there about a month so we'll see. If it has rusted out at the corners then you do have problem. If it is POR-15 they have a stripper that will remove their product, you may want to start there. What I did was smother the rusted out corners with epoxy putty so it would hold fluid. I made a seal for the petcock and filler hole using some rubber and 1/4 plywood. Once I did that it was decently easy. If you get another POR-15 kit it comes with fluids that you put in to get the rust out and prep the tank for the sealer. Your tank may have not been prepped correctly the first time it was lined so now its failed.
Eventually I'll do everything wrong that I can possibly do wrong with my tank and figure out the best way to do things... then everyone can send me their tank and I'll clean and line it... haha.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiger on December 09, 2007, 02:41:00 PM
 8) Tiff' the Gas Tank Specialist...Hmmmmmm, sounds good to me... 8)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 10, 2007, 12:39:45 PM
Oh my... not sure if I'll ever deserve the title of specialist. 
I heard back from the guy with the ebay tank N_V found... he said there is no rust inside the tank, but there is a hole where the dent and rust on the outside of the tank is. He's sending me more pictures.
However, I'm about to embark on a project that may make the expensive and unreliable metal tank a thing of the past.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Brian Moffet on December 10, 2007, 01:03:32 PM
Oh my... not sure if I'll ever deserve the title of specialist. 

Sorry Tiff,

Specialist is not something you attempt to become, it usually comes about because you do something that you care about so much, that you have more information in your head than anyone else around.   :)

Brian

Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: inanecathode on December 10, 2007, 06:38:11 PM
Tiff is going to cast a poly tank. Go tiff go!
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Night Vision on December 10, 2007, 08:32:22 PM
I heard back from the guy with the ebay tank N_V found... he said there is no rust inside the tank, but there is a hole where the dent and

 ??? sheez, that wasn't in das dascription  >:(    I'm glad you asked, I'm just too damn trusting  :-[

Tiff is going to cast a poly tank. Go tiff go!

I think she was talking carbon fiber awhile back...
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on December 10, 2007, 09:12:37 PM
I was tossing around the idea of incorperating  some kind of translucent strip on the side of the tank, same material that 2 cycle fuel tanks are made of. you can see thru this material to guage your fuel level.
I was thinking spmewhere around 3/8 - 1/2 inch wide with a flange to make it replacable or at least cleanable...  if your going to do the tank in carbon fiber it would be an easy mod, but admitedly unsightly...

if there was a truly clear alternative to the whiteish plastic, it would have to have a polished background like the brake fluid & oil sight glasses.

perhaps incorperated behind the knee crease?

fuel for thought...
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 10, 2007, 10:05:05 PM
Inane... you'll have to wait and see. I'm not telling anything til I get going on it and see if its going to work. I'm in the research phase right now.
N_V... yes, I didn't notice that there was a hole, glad I asked. From the pics it just looks like a deep dent.. even with translating it in Babelfish there was no mention of a hole.
Lucky... very interesting concept. If you have some sort of clear material to guage fuel level you are going to be dealing with something else to seal up liquid tight.. and fuel tends to leak much faster than a thicker substance like oil or brake fluid.. maybe that's just my thinking. I'll look into it though. It would for sure be a great addition to the tank.
Wait and see.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: inanecathode on December 11, 2007, 01:18:23 AM
Lol dude i was right.
Crap i should set up a gypsy wagon and predict the future ^-^
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiger on December 11, 2007, 07:10:20 AM
8) Tiff' the Gas Tank Specialist...... 8)

 :)Once again...Sounds good to me... 8)

                   
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: YellowJacket! on December 11, 2007, 12:39:17 PM
Personally, I think she EARNED that title.  ;D

David
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: QBS on December 11, 2007, 07:23:17 PM
Tiff consider aquiring a non salvagable V tank and cutting the outer tank section away from the inner "saddle" section.  Then build your new tank, of whatever shape you want, onto the old "saddle" section.  Doing it this way will retain the forward frame/tank mounting "ears", stock air box clearance, and maybe even the fuel petcock.  Inventing only half the wheel sure beats having to reinvent the whole wheel.  Cheers.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 11, 2007, 08:15:20 PM
Dave.. I haven't earned anything... the tank still leaks.  :-\  After sanding for hours last night I think I finally figured out what has happened. When I let the acid solution sit in the tank there were a few places it ate through the putty where it wasn't very thick. I just plugged the holes by putting more putty on the outside  at the time. I think what happened is that it formed a little hollow pocket in there which I didn't fill with putty... so the POR ran into those voids, and when I sanded down the putty, I sanded the POR off too not knowing there was a void there. No places have a major hole, they just leak around the putty/POR patch. So I'm faced with a decision... do I drill out the hole, use a syringe and inject some JB weld into the hole sealing it up... or do I apply more putty over the top and sand it down pretty thin, but not down to the metal. I've done that in a few places and I'm not entirely happy as I can tell there's a bump there, even though its very thin and the edges are smooth transitions.
QBS... the new tank will look exactly like the original tank... it just won't rust. I could make some modifications if I wanted to, basically I can do anything.. even taking out the low spots, but since there's no fear of rust.. why not leave them so water/gunk collects there instead of running into the carbs.
I have to get my tank ready to go back on the bike though... cause I'll have to use it while I'm creating the other tank.
I'm off to sand more... yay... colored boogers. (Kidding Dave, I'm wearing my mask  ;D)
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Brian Moffet on December 11, 2007, 08:17:15 PM
I needed to make this one post, Tiff.

According to stats, your topic is now as popular (by replies) to my vision rebuild   ;D

Brian
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: h2olawyer on December 11, 2007, 09:58:47 PM
If I were making a new tank, I'd design in one of those flip type caps that are found on most modern bikes today.  Could put it in either the stock location or on the centerline.  Would make filling easier & might even be a cure for the 'Vesuvius' factor.

H2O
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 12, 2007, 08:38:25 PM
Another chapter begins in this never ending novel. I have finished sanding off the rest of the epoxy putty, and much to my dismay, the tank still leaks. I have no idea how or why... but there are still pin holes that leak, and I'm getting some leaks around the edges of some patched holes. I emailed POR to see if I can just recoat the tank without having to strip the POR, as I'm not sure anything will take it off. My other option is to drill out where it leaks and fill it with JB weld. Oh.. then there is that option of driving the truck over it... yay. I will win.. eventually.
Later
Tiff aka Leaky.

Oh.. and Brian.... this thread is a long as the thread where you rebuilt your entire bike... and I've yet to actually accomplish something! Maybe I should spend less time writing and more time working.

h2o... due to the way the I'm making the new tank and the way the cap fits on the tank, it will have to be a flip top.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: GT @ oh. on December 13, 2007, 10:58:37 AM
how hard or costly is it to split the two tank sections?...this would make it much easier to pop the dent out of my original tank......anyone ever do or try?
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 13, 2007, 02:43:07 PM
GT... not sure about cutting the tank in half. I have thought of this, but without knowledge of welding I would never get it back together. My idea would be to cut along the inside of the seam around the tank, that way any weld line would be hidden behind the flange. This would also mean you would be welding back to the thicker metal of the flange rather than having to butt weld it anywhere else. The only problem this would cause is that it may be difficult positioning the pieces back together just right and welding them back together, you would probably want to make a jig to hold everything in place. If I had an unsalvagable tank (duh.. I may have one) I would probably split it open out of curiosity. 

As for my predicament... It seems I cannot recoat the tank. So the next thing I'm going to try is drilling out the leaky parts and using a syringe to inject some JB weld into them.. this way it will form kinda mushroom over the hole on the inside of the tank and have more surface area to bond to. If I'm still getting leaks after that I will cover the whole area in a thin layer of JB and creatively reshape it so it will never be noticed once the tank is painted. I just don't want any obvious deformations where the patches are. I found that JB has a putty that can bond and seal a tank WHILE it is leaking fuel... pretty big claims so I may have to pick some up.

In other news I attempted to proceed on to filling the small dent in the tank with some body filler... only to find that the can of body filler that I swiped from dad was supposed to have a tube of cream hardener... um... which is MIA. So now its back to dad's to search for the tube of hardener, otherwise a trip to the auto parts store to get some.

I also split apart the YICS box that I got from Tiger to try to clean it up and reseal it. Tiger... what is all that goop and how do I get it off? I scraped off most of it with a scraper... but there is still some and I'm not sure what will take it off.
Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.
Tiff aka Putty Mouth
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: YellowJacket! on December 13, 2007, 08:40:36 PM
Tiff,
I tried to post an answer from work before but the firewall blocked me.
Don't worry about cleaning the carbon deposits in the YICS unless there is some loose clingons in there.  What you need to do is get some rough grit sandpaper and tape it down onto the floor.  Sand the edges of each half in a karate kid wax on, wax off circular motion to smooth out the edges.  There is probably part of the tongue and groove left over from splitting it in half and you'll want to sand it down good.
Once its sanded, you can make the gasket and stick it together with some red RTV to seal it up.

Goos Luck!

David
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: kwells on December 13, 2007, 09:09:32 PM
show me waxa the car
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: YellowJacket! on December 13, 2007, 11:22:51 PM
show me waxa the car

Ah, young grasshopper.....ancient Chinese secret.  ;D

David
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: arfa vmax on December 18, 2007, 01:46:31 PM
hi tiff  just incase you dont see my post i have a very good tank in black you can have for the cost of shipping.no idea how much that would be and may not be worth it but the tank has only a little very light rust visible inside and is dent and rust free externaly   
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: YellowJacket! on December 19, 2007, 08:11:49 PM
Hey Tiff.....  Where are ya??

........Didn't inhale too many fumes did you??

David
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 19, 2007, 09:28:39 PM
I'm still here everyone... sorry for the disapperance... have been busy lately.
Arfa vmax... Thanks so much for the very generous offer. I am going to try one more thing with my tank then I'll have to look for alternatives until my tank project is complete... er.. I gotta get it underway first.
After fighting over and over with the needles and seats in my carbs and finally tearing the gaskets from taking the tops off so many times I ordered a Keyster carb kit for each carb... hoping the new needles and seats would solve the problem of fuel not flowing into the carbs. I put them in tonight... and... nothing. I hooked up the pony tank, filled it with fuel and it just sat there. The carb bowls are bone dry. I'm not sure if my carbs are missing something or if I am... but.. um.. what exactly does the float do? From what I see its just two pontoons attached to a bit of metal that is hinged to the lid of the carb.. it doesn't open anything nor does it close anything. Below it is the needle and seat, but it does not touch it in any way. Am I missing something? Also... the needle slides up and down in the seat, correct? So... when the carb tops are on the carb, the pointed end of the needle is at the base of the seat... effectively covering the hole and not letting any fuel through. What am I missing?
On another note though.. the new seats have a bit of very fine filter mesh over the hole so they are another way to keep the carbs sparkly.
I have the next 12 days off work and I really want to get the bike running smoothly in that time.
Thanks everyone for sticking with me. Hopefully once the tank and carbs are sorted the rest will go smoothly. (ha ha.. famous last words)
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 19, 2007, 09:59:57 PM
Ok... So I just looked through the Haynes manual again... and.. oh my god... how stupid am I? Yeah.. I had the whole unit in upside down. I swear that's how it came out... I swear it is. I'll have to look at my pics. I'm an idiot. And I had never noticed that picture until now. Ugh. Ok.. back to the workshop.
Tiff.

edit.. just looked through my pics.. half a million pictures of those carbs and not ONE of that setup. Dork. Guys.. I'm really not this stupid most of the time, I don't know why this is so complicated to me.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: inanecathode on December 19, 2007, 10:16:45 PM
I was going to suggest before reading your last post that you check if they're in the right side up. That happens with older keihin carbs as well. Pretty confusing when you have one carb not fueling after just rebuilding them.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 19, 2007, 11:16:23 PM
Yes Yes... what can I say.. I'm a genius.  8) For my next trick... I will drain the oil... WOO HOO!
Ok, so I got everything in the way man intended it to be in... so now the carbs work like little champs. Makes MUCH more sense when you get everything in correctly. Now my next problem. When I'm cranking it over, sometimes I get a really nasty CLACK! and it stops turning over. Sometimes this happens while the bike is running as well. I drained the oil and there's no metal shavings in the oil or filter that I can find. Starter clutch bolts loose? It doesn't make any clicking or anything while its running, its just the loud clack and it stops dead. Sometimes when it does this it loses neutral and I have to go pop it into first and back up to get neutral again. Could something in the clutch be loose and its engaging when it shouldn't? I did have to replace the clutch line, maybe I didn't get it tight enough. Any tips? I don't want to go any farther and risk my engine eating itself.  :-\
Another minor (ok, maybe not so minor) issue.. the oil pressure warning light NEVER comes on. Ever. I have pulled the wire and cleaned the contacts, nope, I checked to make sure the bulb is good, its fine. Could the sensor be bad? Could the wire be corroded somewhere? Maybe I'll connect another line and just see if it works then, if it does, I'll know there's a break in the wire.
One thing at a time.. finally have carbs that work. Tomorrow I patch up the tank... again.
Sorry for the mindless dribble, I use these posts as a brainstorm method.  :P
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: inanecathode on December 19, 2007, 11:45:23 PM
Just test for continuity across the bulb, thats probably whats out if anythings out.
The CLACK could just be it running out of juice, it could also be that its popping into gear when you're trying to start it.
For the clutch line, adjust it so the clutch itself is resting on its own spring pressure totally, ie, cable loose with only about 1/16th of freeplay at the lever. Make sure the clutch lever on the case isnt caught on anything and is working smoothly.
You DID put oil back in it before you tried to start it again right?

Does it stat?
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: h2olawyer on December 20, 2007, 01:15:03 AM
The oil light could be the wire, but since you checked the bulb already, I would suspect the pressure sender or possibly a poor or swapped connection.  Make sure the right wires are going to the right sensors down there.  You can test the wire for continuity with your ohm meter as well.

I had a similar problem last summer with my neutral safety switch - it wouldn't go off.  Tested it & it failed.  New one works "just like new!"   ;D

H2O
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on December 20, 2007, 07:49:55 AM
if you weren't working so hard on it, i'd make you an honerary blond & tease you  :D

you figured it out & that's the point. ggod job.

as for the clacking, i'd suspect the bikes not cranking fast enough.  put a voltmeter on the battery & let us know what the voltage drops to while cranking.  it shouldn't drop below 10V.  if so, battery/charging/starting system needs attention.

--Lucky
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on December 20, 2007, 07:52:40 AM
BTW, if your getting cold temps there in Ga like we are in Tn, use very light oil for testing purposes...5w, or 10w-20...  it'll help the bike start easier.  just don't actualy ride the bike with that oil in it
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 20, 2007, 08:12:28 AM
Thanks guys. I'll try those things.
Inane... Yes, I did put oil back in it. I just drained the oil out last night and called it a day. I'm headed to the store soon to get more oil. Thanks for the tip on the clutch, I'll do that.
H2O... thanks. When I originally got the bike some of the wires down there were swapped... I think something like the neutral switch wire and sidestand switch wire were crossed so the bike never knew it was in neutral. I got the wiring harness and went through every wire to make sure they were connected properly. However, I did learn that when you are putting the bracket back on that holds the gear lever it will pinch the wire for the oil pressure sensor, cause I did that and it mangled the wire.
Lucky... I'm really starting to think I'm a blonde deep down inside. I did figure it out.. only took.. uh.. how many months? He he.  ;D
I'll check the battery and put it on charge today while I do some other stuff... just to keep it topped off.
And... cold temps? I'm in south MS.. it was 28 Monday morning.. yesterday morning it was 64 and the high was something like 76. It never gets cold for long, and when it is cold my little tail is snuggled under a blanket with the heater on. I'm a wimp. Ha Ha.  :D Thanks for the advice though.. if it does actually get cold for more than an hour I'll keep that in mind.
Off to the store!
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 23, 2007, 04:47:51 PM
Ok, was under the weather a few days so didn't get to work on the bike, but did think about possibilities and what you all have said.
So, just went out and checked the YICS that I sealed with red RTV and it is sealed for sure, put it back on the bike. Have the carbs back on (correctly assembled) and am getting a good stream of fuel from the accelerator nozzles. I pulled the starter apart, no oil, so put it back on.
Tried chasing down the problem with the oil pressure warning light and I'm thinking its a combination of the oil pressure sensor going out and not getting negative power to the light. I would check for current by placing the positive lead of my voltmeter to the sensor and the negative to the engine, sometimes I would get 12-14 volts, sometimes nothing. Then I checked current to the bulb, nothing. Checked positive on the bulb to the engine, again, sometimes 12-14 volts, sometimes nothing. How hard are these units to find? Is there a generic yamaha one or is this going to be a major task to track one down.
Now, back to what I was discussing. Good clean oil in the engine, good spark plugs, good carbs, good gas going through a fuel filter. Give the throttle 2 pumps and try to start... and its a toss up for what will happen.
1. The engine starts, revs a little if I have it choked, and dies.
2. The engine almost starts, makes a loud clack, and dies, puffs of white smoke come up from the carb, sometimes front, sometimes back.
3. Engine turns over, backfires shooting smoke up through the carb and farts out the tailpipe.
4. This one is new... engine turns over once or twice then starter spins freely. It started doing this more often.
There may be some other interesting ones, but these are the main things that happen. The starter is not turning fast and sometimes seems to almost get bogged down. I checked volts while starting and they stay pretty much between 12-14, only dropping to 10 when the starter gets kinda bogged.
Comments? Advice? Offers to burn the bike at the stake cause its obviously possessed?
Tiff aka... my bike farts.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on December 23, 2007, 04:59:18 PM
I think your not getting enough speed out of your starter, try it jumped to a non running car & report back.

probably also need some carb tuning (pilot & synq)
--Lucky
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: inanecathode on December 24, 2007, 01:00:26 AM
Does your accelerator pump work? If so, give the throttle a few twists before starting it choked. If you already do this and its still not revving after its choked, while its running pop the throttle all the way open real quickly, just snap it. If you're having a lean condition (badly adjusted, clogged circuits) it should rev up great as long as you're snapping the throttle (using the accel pump as an idle circuit) every once in a while. If it almost immediately bogs and dies, you're running too rich at idle and you should try no choke/accelerator pump start (just snap the throttle and start it with no choke) doing this should tell you whats wrong with the fueling (it IS a fueling problem if you were guessing :))

Make sure the yikes lines arent leaking.

Its probably pretty easy to find an oil pressure sensor, i havent actually checked but i cant imagine yamaha making a one off sensor for the vision.

That white smoke is gasoline vapor, if its atomized well enough it makes visible vapor like a cloud :) sometimes that can mean you're too rich, but almost all the time its just unburnt fuel that had entered the intake manifold/chamber, and has been burped back out. Totally normal :)

The backfire is also normal. Sometimes theres too much fuel vapor hanging around (as in it isnt running and doesnt have the pressure to suck/push vapors around well enough) in the intake/exhaust systems and a stray flame front/ember/spark ignites the vapor. Unless your ignition timing (basically impossible) or your valve timing (it would barely run/limp) are totally off, its normal. (your ignition/valve timing is fine btw :P)

The starter freewheeling is probably almost totally normal. The starter in my car does that sometimes as well. Sometimes the planets/stars/yamaha gods arent aligned right and the starter clutch doesnt grab, if its not happening all the time i wouldnt worry about it. It could also mean your starter clutch is starting to wear out. Thats also normal, honestly i wouldnt worry about it. Its not in the scope of what you're trying to fix at the moment.

You're probably running low on juice is why the starter is bogging down. Its kind of hard to tell with just volts if a battery can support cranking or not. Its more about available amperage than voltage. By the time one would say "its dead jim" with just looking at voltage, its probably way past the point of 'its dead jim' with amperage. Heres what you do. Take your mom's car battery out of her car, and connect that in parallel with your bikes battery (jump it with the car battery). That'll give you plenty of reserve amps so you can crank and crank and crank. Motorcyle batteries are tiny, they're tiny only because they have to fit in somewhere. They're really only designed for a well running bike that only takes a few seconds of cranking to start. Extended cranking nukes them extremely fast. Car batteries arent supposed to maintain extended cranking, but they certainly can, especially with a motorcycle starter.

Cranking amps are pretty vital, especially if the engine isnt it really good shape (out of shape, hasnt ran in a while and so forth) you have to have enough left over power to run the tci properly (not sure what a vision electronic ignition circuit needs, but i know a car is around 10.5 volts or so minimum) and to fire the coils properly (if theres not enough primary voltage you'll get a weak spark). This makes a huge difference if you're going to light off an imperfect mixture or not. Its also vital to cranking speed. Though not as important as diesels, you do have to meet a minimum amount of compression in a minimum amount of time to properly fire a gas engine. If you have low cranking amps (battery is dead/dieing) it doesnt have to click-click-click to not start. What you're dealing with in your case if you have a weak battery is a crappy mixture (not tuned right), a crappy spark (low primary voltage), and crappy compression.

My advice? Get a car battery hooked up to it. Do the accelerator pump test (snap it full/idle whilst its running and see how it acts), and try every combination of throttle/choke combinations you can (full choke no throttle, full choke full throttle, no choke no throttle etc)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Rick G on December 24, 2007, 01:19:56 AM
Tiff, probably , whats happening is  A: its a little out of tune B: its still asleep (hasn't run in a long time) B: voltage is dropping below 10 v while cranking.  C: its probably cold where you are, and Visions don't particularly like cold starts.
So do like Inane says ,hook up a car battery (from a nonrunning car)  and  try again.

My first Vision was bought in early march in MN. 1999 . It was asleep . So I jumpted it from the previous owners pickup , then  pulled the gas tank and the air box top , and poured a jigger of gas in each carb.
She hacked and farted on the first try , on the second try it started and with difficulty stayed running . It ran  and I was satisfied , so I bought it .
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: tben on December 25, 2007, 10:20:48 AM
Tiff you're soooo close. Mine does all those things until I get just the right start and she fires up. I had quite a backfire at 5:30 this morning getting her started before work (making friends with the neighbors ::)). Keep up the good work and have a great Christmas. ;D
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: h2olawyer on December 25, 2007, 02:27:10 PM
Ah yes, the legendary Vision afterfire.  Makes a 12 gauge sound wimpy!  Who lit that M-80 anyway???  I had heard stories of this phenomenon but never experienced it until early last Summer, when helping inanecathode get his V running.  Sure glad we were outside or else I'd be deaf today!

H2O
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Rick G on December 25, 2007, 08:53:30 PM
When I lived in OR. I had the Vision in the carport,  with the exhaust facing the back wall . the battery was on its way out and while trying to start it, it shot a foot of flame from the top pipe  (Macs)  and bounced the explosion off of the wall and out into the Moble home park, for all to marvel at and enjoy. I had a meaninfull conversation with the owners wife  , while I tried to explain the  phenominon.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: YellowJacket! on December 25, 2007, 09:37:23 PM
Aint nothing sweether than a double barrel MAC backfire.  ;D

I found that mine backfires more when my battery is crappy.  I had a bad battery earlier this year.  It would read 12 volts but just wouldn't crank and ended up having a bad cell.  A new battery fixed the problem.  Boy, I'll tell you though, it'll wake the dead at 5:00am getting ready for a morning ride to work and it lets go with an epic backfire.

David
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Rick G on December 25, 2007, 10:40:12 PM
H20 is correct, in calling it after fire.  Back fire comes out of the carbs.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 29, 2007, 05:05:28 PM
Me again. Had some success today I think. After much tweaking and fiddling... I found out my fire-die problem was none other than... I hadn't pushed the plug cap down tight on the rear cylinder... DOH! Secured it down tight and VROOM! That was last night. This morning I pushed her out of the shed and into the bright sunshine and fresh air. Had a touch of trouble getting her to fire up again but once she did it was all good from there. Did find a coolant leak where I replaced the burp bolt housing. Tightened down a clamp and it was solved. Tweaked the carbs using the mixture screws and idle screw... then hooked up my homemade manometer and synced them pretty darn close, then set the idle speed again.
Few problems arose though...
I revved it a few times and sometimes it was slow to return to idle... other times it just plain didn't, I had to shut it off because it hung out around 2-4k rpm. This was with no YICS attached, I guess the hoses weren't plugged off completely... I'm hoping they weren't.
Now for the interesting one. I popped it down into first on the center stand... and with the clutch IN the bike is in gear... meaning... the rear wheel is spinning. I touch it with my foot... no dice.. its engaged. I tried adjusting the clutch some at the handlebar with no luck.  Any ideas? This is a new clutch cable because my other one was siezed.

Ok, I have the YICS box soaking in some RTV to get sealed up again after I accidentally put 90psi into it to test it and blew the seal... oops.
Still not getting an oil pressure warning light. Going to be looking for one on ebay I think.
Oh... when does the fan cut on? I had the engine temp 3/4 of the way through the green and the fan still didn't cut on. I'm about to install a switch on it now.

Final note... an Ipod is the greatest purchase EVER! Nothing keeps me motivated to work like some upbeat music. So nice. Why have a not bought one before now.
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: inanecathode on December 29, 2007, 05:27:16 PM
Adjust your cable so that its totally slack, then adjust it until theres 1/16th of an inch of play at the clutch handle. It should work alright at that point. What you're probably dealing with is crapped up plates that have sat for god knows how long. With your weight on the bike, once you pop it in gear it shouldnt take off on you. Just make sure your clutch cable is adjusted right.
I had sticky plates with mine when i first got it going, i had to tighten up the cable quite a bit, then after a time i noticed it was slipping a bit so i returned it to the normal 1/16th position. Now it works fine.
1) Adjust the cable so theres 1/16th of play at the handle
2) Sit on the bike, try to ride it
3) If it just dies when you put it in gear (sticking clutch) adjust the cable tighter and tighter until it wont stick anymore, but isnt so loose it wont engage at all
4) Ride it around a little while (just squid it around the block a few times)
5) Adjust the cable back down to where it should be over time

That should do ya :D
You have it easy heh, my bike was actually seized, i thought it was a bad clutch pack :o (i unseized it though ;))

As for the slow return to idle, i was having that pretty bad. Nearly tore all my hair out over it. Turns out i had extremely bad intake boots. For you, its probably just not properly sealed yikes ports. Checkers (oreilys, napa etc) should have little packs of vacuum caps, just stick some on the ports and you should be golden. Clamp them to be sure if you want.
If your mix is good, and your sync is good, its probably a vacuum leak. Make sure your intake boot clamps are tight, and theres no serious cracks on the boots themselves. Your yikes ports should be sealed tightly, and you should have all new vacuum lines. 25 year old rubber always leaks.
Spray some carb cleaner around the intake boot-intake port gasket, then on the boots themselves, then  on the fittings for the yikes and the fuel pump. After that, shoot some on the carb-intake boot seal, this was where my biggest leak was.

That should get you going.


Edit:
As for the yikes box. Honestly, 4 surrious, just toss it. Its honestly not worth the hassle. I've ridden both yikes and non yikes, and if theres a difference it's tiny at best. Its just a driveability liability. If you really want a yikes, you can make yikes cans out of tiny wd40 bottles.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: YellowJacket! on December 29, 2007, 05:28:49 PM
Final note... an Ipod is the greatest purchase EVER! Nothing keeps me motivated to work like some upbeat music. So nice. Why have a not bought one before now.
Tiff.

Heh heh heh....  I like my Zune better.  ;D

Good point though.  Music makes work better.

As for the clutch, rock the bike back and forth a bit to move the oil around inside the case.  Clutch may just be stuck and need some working out.

You'll get a more detailed answer shortly though, Im sure.  ;D

David
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 29, 2007, 06:10:34 PM
Thanks guys... went back out to try to play with the bike some more.. it wouldn't crank. I'm thinking it needs a new starter, this one turns painfully slow. I took it completely apart earlier today and it was full of some black dust, no oil though. I figured it was just the new brushes getting worn down. I cleaned it up and put everything back together, still spinning slowly. The battery is good, even pulled the battery out of my boat and hooked it up, still slow spin. Then I tried turning the key off and putting juice straight to the positive terminal of the starter, still spins slow.
Didn't get the switch hooked up for the fan, going to put that on the agenda for tomorrow.
While the bike was running there was smoke coming from interesting places... I think some 3 year old crickets and mice were getting cooked in there... haha. After a while the smoke cleared though.
Inane... I would have loved to have riden the bike a little... but running with a pony tank, no seat, and it not returning to idle I'm really not sure that would be the safest choice. I'm going to better cap up the YICS and see what happens.
Here's a question... when adjusting the mixture screws... I would set the idle at around 1300 rpm and start tightening, the engine would run crappy and I would start backing them out and counting per 1/4 turn. When I got farther out the idle would race up to 2k or more until I went back in. Is that supposed to happen?
Also, when syncing them it seemed like when they would get really uneven the idle would race, and when they got back to even it would slow back down. Bad thing? Good thing? I don't know what I'm doing?
Dave... I looked at the Zune... but I like the smaller size of the Ipod so I could slip it in my pocket and beat it up and lose it somewhere. I'm going to have to get a case for sure, I've had it 3 days and already scratched up the shiny chrome back... oops.


Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: inanecathode on December 29, 2007, 06:51:20 PM
Heres how i tune:

Make sure both screws are 2.5 turns out
Start it
Set the idle around 1200
Turn the mix screw out/in until idle gets the highest it can be (Dont keep tightening/loosening past this point, you want to just touch the high rpm point, its possible to screw them WAY out and have the same idle, but crappy off idle charactaristics)
Adjust the idle back down
Turn the mix screw out/in until the idle SLIGHTLY drops (do it slowly, you'll hear it)
Set the idle back to 1200
Repeat above process for the second carb
Reset the idle to 1200
Turn off the bike
Plug in the sync tool
Make sure the sync tube is clamped good (just cross the hose over and squeeze it with pliers) otherwise it'll just suck the oil out
Adjust the sync until its kosher (sometimes it'll float one way or the other slowly, i just get it as close as i can)
Tighten sync rod, make sure the sync is still kosher, sometimes touching i messes it up
Adjust idle to 1200

At this point you should be cool. Idle racing and weird crap is normal when you're monkeying with the mix/sync. The sync rod basically opens/closes the throttle plate(s) so if its way out of wack it'll basically hold the idle open. The important part about the tuning process is keeping the idle where it should be.

PS
Real men use Creative players
er, nm

PPS
Forgot the starter part. Have you worked on the commutator of the starter at all? (Sectioned shaft the brushes ride on) 90 percent of the time slow cranking is because the commutator is all crapped up with carbon/pushed into each section. I chucked mine in a power drill and ran sandpaper across the commutator, cleaned it up real nice. If you've got slow cranking with power right to the starter, and brand new brushes, its probably the commutator/oil contamination.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on December 29, 2007, 07:07:01 PM
I'll touch on a couple of your Q's:
(sorry inanecathode), but do not attempt to drop the bike into gear, while running with the rear tire on the ground until you know it's safe.

reason:
if the clutch pack is frozen, droping the bike into gear, with the rear tire on the ground, even with the clutch pulled in, will cause it to violently lurch forward. weather you are on it or not, then you get to watch it either fall over, or drive away (yes, a bike will stay up & ride away without a driver)

instead:
with the bike off sit on the bike, (put yer seat back on first, lol) drop it into gear & try to roll the bike.  if the rear tire won't turn the clutch pack is frozen.  if you can roll the bike your all set, just need to adjust the clutch at the right cover.

fix:
if you can, tactfully get the heaviest person you can find who can sit on the bike & still be flatfoot, to rock the bike, in gear, forward & back untill the clutch 'pops'. all the while working the clutch lever randomply in & out.

my first Vision took me 5 min or so 'till it poped.

This fall, Cafe Vison took me 45 min of hard, violent, rear tire draging & rocking to finally free that mutha up, & when that clutch poped free, it was a loud hard 'Clack' (nope nothing broke, that's how it sounds). i was tired, lol

It may seem to take forever, but it'll free up, don't worry.

carbs:

adjusting the synq will change the rpms.  keep tweaking the idle stop screw (thumbscrew on the right side of the rear carb) WHILE tweaking the synq. to keep the idle at 1300 rpm.  remember, your #1 goal is to have the carbs even. it matters not if the vac level is high or low, as long as they are the same.

pilot adjustment:
get them close enough to allow the bike to run. set the synq, then tweak the pilot settings: in until it starts to run rough, out till starts to run rough, then center the adjustmet there plu 1/4 turn out.

then recheck the synq.
it's a back & fourth thing....

finally, after you find the vacuume leak that's causing the slow return to idle (assuming the carbs are now in synq) you will have to resynq & reset the pilots. fixing a vacuume leak will change both of those. (but you'll be getting good at those adjustments by then)

--Lucky
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on December 29, 2007, 07:14:01 PM
to add to what Inanecathode said about the commutator, the white sections between the copper ones are called Mica (like the stone) and should be undercut lower than the level of the copper. mica is a soft stone & you can & should undercut the mica at every brush change (very profesional)  you can do this very easily with a broken off hacksaw blade.  you only need a few hundreths of an inch depth.

--Lucky
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: inanecathode on December 29, 2007, 07:59:06 PM
to add to what Inanecathode said about the commutator, the white sections between the copper ones are called Mica (like the stone) and should be undercut lower than the level of the copper. mica is a soft stone & you can & should undercut the mica at every brush change (very profesional)  you can do this very easily with a broken off hacksaw blade.  you only need a few hundreths of an inch depth.

--Lucky

Good call with the undercut, i did this with mine (just used a dental pick to scratch out channels, then used the end of a hacksaw blade like you said and cleaned it up a bit)

My problem was also some of the commutator sections were pushed/dragged into the next section (someone had previously monkeyed with it) so one section would leak voltage over into the next.

I would definitely clean out all the carbon you can get out of it, carbon is a conductor, and the more thats spread over everything the less voltage is used in the armature and ends up just leaking all over.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Rick G on December 29, 2007, 08:47:47 PM
lucky, all I do with a stuck clutch  is to paddle forward  and once its moving drop it in to 1st gear , while holding the clutch in . It will break loose with in 20 feet. Its a problem on all bikes that sit too long . (except maybe BMW's and Moto Guzzi's)
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 29, 2007, 10:19:45 PM
Thanks everyone for the help.
For the clutch... I just put the bike in first and force the rear wheel to turn? If I remember correctly... less than a year ago when I went to get the bike my cousin banged it forward in gear to show that the engine wasn't seized. Now that's not to say the clutch hasn't gotten stuck since then. I will do that though and see what happens. I'll have to go dig the seat out of the loft in the shop... haven't really needed it lately. Only problem with the paddling and rolling is... well... I can barely get my feet down, and its a long push uphill in pinestraw to get to some concrete. I'll make it though.   ;D
For the starter... The copper on the commutator was pretty black with stuff... I took a regular pencil eraser and cleaned it all off, can't remember who gave me that tip but it worked brilliantly. The mica between is cut below the level of the copper and nothing is touching. Are the brushes supposed to be pushing hard on the commutator? I have to kinda move the brushes out of the way to slide it into place, which  means they are putting a good bit of pressure on the copper.
Carbs, I see its going to be a long process. Goal for tomorrow is to get the YICS plugged tight, check the carb boots for leaks, possibly coat them in more liquid electrical tape, and try to get the bike started again.
Thanks guys.
Tiff
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: inanecathode on December 29, 2007, 10:33:59 PM
Yeah, just put it in 4th or 5th and rock it back and forth with the clutch let out. Should break it free. No need to roll it around much just forwards and backwards.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on December 29, 2007, 11:21:07 PM
my point with my clutch instructions is that it's usually simple, but even if it's tough, it'll still break free.

the eraser is a tip i've known forever i may have mentioned it...
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Night Vision on December 29, 2007, 11:32:20 PM

Are the brushes supposed to be pushing hard on the commutator? I have to kinda move the brushes out of the way to slide it into place, which  means they are putting a good bit of pressure on the copper.


The brushes are spring loaded and yes, they have to retract so you can get the cummutator into the brush plate. You kinda angle the cummutator and use it to push them in.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: QBS on December 30, 2007, 12:25:16 AM
Ricks' got the right idea.  Place the bike facing down an incline, start the engine and let it idle, pull in the clutch lever, paddle the bike down the incline, push down on the gear shift lever(thus placing the bike into first gear), rev the engine.  This should break the clutch loose and you can then operate the bike as usual. 
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on December 31, 2007, 06:58:34 PM
Ok, so I got the clutch issue sorted, I dropped it off the center stand and it was fine, apparently the wheel just likes to turn when in first with the clutch pulled but when its on the ground it doesn't move. So, discovering that, I took the bike for a little spin. It was only about 50 yards but it was a milestone. It moved under its own power, that's good. So anyway.. I went back out this afternoon to check the carbs again and maybe ride it a little more. Tuned the mixture screws, set the idle, hooked up the manometer and synched the carbs. Everything seemed to be running well. The idle wasn't hunting, it wasn't racing, it would return to idle when revved. It was time to ride. Dropped it down off the center stand and it died. Fired it back up, idle was a little low so I adjusted it up... popped it into first, started letting the clutch out, it died. Started it back up again, same thing.
Well then it wouldn't crank. It started making an occasional clacking noise when the starter turned. I put more gas in it and tried again. More popping and farting and two REALLY good afterfires... oh man, I'm sure the neighbors are putting together a petition to have me thrown out. At least I faced the pipes towards my house and not anyone else's. Battery started getting low so I pulled out my boat battery and gave it a jump... it fired up and the idle raced up to 4k and stayed there. Tried to adjust the idle down but was burning my finger on the engine. Shut it down, adjusted the idle, fired it back up... revved to 4k. Shut it off and adjusted more... same thing, this time I shut it down and was thanked by an earth shattering BOOM from the muffler. He he. I decided after that to put her away for the night... although it was very fitting being New Years Eve and all. I started the celebration early.
Anyway... what I learned.
1. Synching carbs is hard. I would get them perfect... shut the bike off.. crank it back up and they were off again. Or I would get them perfect, adjust the idle and they were off again. Pain.
2. If the starter isn't turning fast... its going to make some god awful farts and burps.
3. I still have some pretty ugly electrical problems. The bike really can't decide if its in neutral or not. Sometimes the light is on then it will just randomly go off... then comes back on.. then goes off. And of course it won't crank if the light isn't on unless I pull in the clutch.
4. The bike hates me. That's all that can be said. It is the direct spawn of satan.
5. I have no idea what is rattling around in there when I try to start it. It is not consistent, so there's no way to really tell.

So there I am. I guess its a matter of just continuing to tweak the carbs til I get it under control. The YICS is sealed, I know that. I sprayed cleaner and WD-40 all over the place and it never made a difference in the idle. I coated a small crack in the carb boot with more liquid electrical tape so its sealed up nicely.
Tomorrow I'm going to prime the tank.. at last. Would have done it today but found a spot I missed when I put the JB weld on, so had to do it and it is taking its sweet time curing up. Once I get it sanded I'll prime it just to get the bare metal out of the weather. It will stay like that til I figure out what I'm going to do for a real paint job.
Ok... enough of my rambling. I think I made progress the past two days.. if nothing else I annoyed the neighbors.
Tiff aka BOOM.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: tben on December 31, 2007, 08:23:34 PM
Tiff, great work! ;D ;D

About the bike dying when you shift into gear. I don't know if this helps you but my v which is in a similar state to yours does the same thing unless I let it warm up for about 5 min.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: kwells on December 31, 2007, 08:26:48 PM
CHeck your sidestand switch as well.  If you suspect that it is no longer a functioning unit I would either get it working, replace it, or as a last resort cut the wire if it hasnt been done already.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Rick G on January 01, 2008, 12:52:52 AM
Some of us old time visionaries figured out long ago that the "saftey circuit  was  a main source of problems .  I  removed  the sidestand switch, the clutch switch  and the  front brake light switch.in 2001
The sidestand switch as lived a hard life , for 25 years it has slathered in grease, road grime and water . like wise the clutch switch . there just too old to be reliable and they were cheap to begin with .
 
As for the  front brake light switch  , I find  it usefull to be able to  slow down and not reveal to motorplow and his cohorts that I may have been going a triffle fast.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: YellowJacket! on January 01, 2008, 09:20:35 AM
Hey Tiff,
Congratulations!  You are now a "Rider of Vision"....of sorts but it is a huge accomplishmnet.

A more fitting name woule be "BOOM chakalaka BOOM"....Had to throw the rattles in there too, you know.

I went through the same ordeal as you with the bike starting and quitting.  It was very frustrating.  I even got to the point of thinking my wife was going out into the garage and changing or messing with something to make sure I couldn't ride it.  Your mom doesn't have keys to your barn, does she??  ;D

You're getting closer.....

Happy New Year!!

David
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on January 01, 2008, 07:49:50 PM
WHOA! Long post alert!

Ok... NOW I can call myself a Rider of Vision. Took the bike for a spin around the neighborhood, down to my bro's house to show off. Its an ugly little beast right now.. only one front turn signal, only one mirror, no plastics to be found anywhere, no rear tail light housing, a pony tank and funnel hanging from the handlebars, and a metal/JB weld/Epoxy putty/Bondo tank. The coolant bottle is outside the frame and the relays and "guts" are stuffed in but not mounted, battery is held on by duct tape. Yes... she's a right sight to see, but she runs, and WE got her there. Of course all of the above will be remedied during the restoration process, I just wanted to make sure the bike would indeed run and not blow up.
Now for how the bike runs... Well... The clutch needs to be adjusted, has a good bit of play in it. The suspension is quite soft, but coming from my Z with a suspension set up for track... i.e...  hard as a rock.. its a nice change. The tires need to go to the nearest dump. I noticed that once in gear with the engine running the bike did NOT want to go back to neutral... it was first or second.. no in between. Perhaps that is a clutch adjustment there... or maybe the bike just wants to GO and not sit still. Engine runs really well. Each time I would stop the idle seemed to drop a little more. I kept adjusting the screw back up to keep it around 1200-1300 rpms. Another round of carb adjusting may cure that. Once out on the open road though it seems to have good power for a 550 with nice get up and go. Feels like it wants to pull just a tad, I was putting more pressure on the handlebars with my left arm than right. Could this be due to added weight of the drive shaft? The bike is pretty loud for stock exhaust... could be that hole rusted in the right muffler though.  :-\
All in all... its a TOTALLY different animal than the Z. I think I mean that in a good way though. I'm used to an over the top aggressive riding style with most of my body weight resting on either my legs or arms as I lean over the handlebars. With the vision the riding style is more cruiserish, so I'm not bearing as much weight on my arms. I still can't flat foot the dang thing, I was really hoping for that. The first time I got it rolling and put my feet on the pegs my left foot landed on the center stand and my right foot flailed in mid air. Uhm... the pegs are much farther forward than I was expecting. Its comfortable, just something to get used to. This will be a good bike for the longer rides where my back usually starts aching on the Z.
It started out looking like it was going to be a crummy day cause I just couldn't get the bike to start. Nothing I tried helped. Then all of a sudden it roared to life and purred like a kitten.  Here's what I think happened with the racing RPMs... I found that if I push down too far on the carbs they sit too deep in the boots and the sync rod gets stuck on the bolt holding down the carb boot... this causes the throttle to either be difficult to open... or it sticks open just a tad. I noticed today when tinkering with the carbs that the sync rod was sticking. I think it got stuck open, so the bike would fire up, and the throttle was open a little and I didn't notice. WOO HOO.
Another interesting story... I had the bike on the center stand and it WOULD NOT CRANK. So.. in desparation I dropped it off the center stand and onto the sidestand because last night it started on the sidestand and not the centerstand. Yes, superstition I know... but whatever works. I try to crank it on the sidestand with no luck. So I just stand the bike up and balance it... wheel facing forward. After some work... it cranked. I'm sure it had NOTHING to do with the position it was standing in... just the position my mouth was in... forming curse words. Anyway... I yippee and decided to lean the bike onto the sidestand... when I do the idle races up to 4k and stays there. I stand the bike back up.. it goes back down. I did this a few times because... after all... I'm inherently stupid and can't believe stuff the first time. Lean the bike over.. idles at 4k.. stand it up... idles at 1300. Onto the center stand it goes, still idling at 1300. Shut it down and text a buddy of mine who works on cars. He calls me back and we start going over stuff. He says thats for sure a first for him. He tells me to check the throttle cable and sure enough... the throttle cable was binding and when the handlebars were turned to the left as is done when on the sidestand... it pulled the throttle open. Small adjustment there, problem solved.
The only thing that still worries me is the rattling and clacking when starting. Once the bike is started it purrs like a little fat and happy kitten, but starting it up is sometimes like shaking a metal coffee can full of big bolts and bullets. Any ideas?
Thanks for all the help...
"I would like to thank all the little people who got me this far" My academy awards speech.
The sidestand switch seems to be working properly, its the neutral switch that is a pain in my butt right now. It just randomly decides the bike isn't in neutral as I'm spinning the back wheel on the center stand.
Tiff.. aka click click... BOOM!  :o
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: YellowJacket! on January 01, 2008, 08:40:17 PM
YYYEEEEEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAA!!  ;D  ;D  ;D

David
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Rick G on January 01, 2008, 09:01:07 PM
Tiff, the neutral "dance"  is a learned accomplishment.  Adjusting the clutch free play is a good thing, and synthetic oil helps a lot . but the biggest thing you can do is shift into neutral BEFORE you come to a complete stop. Motorcycle gear boxes  (Except for a few of the 2007 models ) have sliding gears  utilizing dogs and slots . When the bike is moving the dogs will enter and exit the slots with ease , when not moving its much more difficult . ( Hummm , this sounds a lot like sex education!!!!)
practice make perfect!!  (what did I tell you??)   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiger on January 01, 2008, 09:33:55 PM
 :) The neutral riding position of the "V" makes it a very comfortable machine to ride on long or short hop's.
The "soft" suspension you mentioned is a trait of the '82. However, a fork overhaul...Drain, strip down, washed in a solvent to clean out the crud and rebuilt using new seal's and fresh 15 weight oil will help a wee bit.
You can stiffen it up by useing slightly longer spacer's or installing air cap's, (6 - 8lb of air), and/or progressive front spring's to take the place of 25 year old one's will help big time.

Invest in a set of Avon tire's. They are great for safe handling and comfort...your mom will love them 8)

The more you ride the Vision the better she will run...Ride her hard and often :o ;D :D :D :D :D :D... ;)

               
8).......TIGER....... 8)  
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: inanecathode on January 01, 2008, 09:46:33 PM
"I found that if I push down too far on the carbs they sit too deep in the boots and the sync rod gets stuck on the bolt holding down the carb boot"

Weird, this was one of the problems i was having, same symptoms too, funky idle etc.
The vision riding position is alot more "doiky doik" than alot of newer bikes. Not that thats a bad thing, the monkey humping a football position gets me cramped up pretty quick.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: pullshocks on January 02, 2008, 02:44:56 AM
Way to go!  Reading about your progress really made my day.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on January 02, 2008, 05:49:08 AM
Quote
I found that if I push down too far on the carbs they sit too deep in the boots and the sync rod gets stuck on the bolt holding down the carb boot... this causes the throttle to either be difficult to open... or it sticks open just a tad. I noticed today when tinkering with the carbs that the sync rod was sticking. I think it got stuck open, so the bike would fire up, and the throttle was open a little and I didn't notice. WOO HOO.
fix:
Pull the circlips off the synq rods (don't lose them they will FLY away, cup your hand over them, then they will only fall to the hardest place to reach on the engine).
then, carefully, without turning the ends on the rod, turn them over 180o so that what used to face the right side of the bike now faces the left. NOT forward vs rear. that's why their catching.

this will not change the synq.

Quote
yippee and decided to lean the bike onto the sidestand... when I do the idle races up to 4k and stays there. I stand the bike back up.. it goes back down. I did this a few times because... after all... I'm inherently stupid and can't believe stuff the first time
I so wish i had video of this!  :D

Quote
its the neutral switch that is a pain in my butt right now. It just randomly decides the bike isn't in neutral as I'm spinning the back wheel on the center stand.
so we are clear:
the neutral SWITCH controls the safety relay so that you can't start the bike in gear, but it's only a sensor telling the relay if your in neutral, & tripping the green light. it doesn't affect weather the rear tire spins in neutral.

the rear tire will spin in neutral on the center stand, especialy if the idle is too high, but as long as it doesn't pull you while stopped at a light, don't worry about it, it's Aby-something..oh yes, AbbyNormal! (it's fine)

and CONGRATS!, JOB WELL DONE!
--Lucky
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on January 02, 2008, 07:32:38 AM
Thanks for the tips everyone.
Rick... that is the exact opposite of my Z... I have more trouble trying to find neutral while the bike is moving than sitting still. Something I'll have to get used to I guess.
Tiger... fork strip down and clean is on the list of things to do. Just wanted to get her moving under her own power. Now I can feel better about tearing the bike apart and rebuilding.. knowing that it did at one time run and should run again if I do it right. I already have the seals and oil. I'm going to see how it does with new oil and if I don't like it I'll look into doing one of the things you mentioned to stiffen it up.
Lucky... do I really want to touch the carbs again? Haha. I'll do that.. very carefully. Although I found (the hard way) that most things I drop will eventually come to rest in the V of the engine, then I can get my little flexible grabber in there and retrieve it. It became comedy that the bike would increase idle if I leaned it over... I was laughing so hard. It just seemed perfect considering the road I have traveled with that bike.
The problem is the neutral position sensor I think. The green light will be on, then it randomly goes off. But I know the bike is still in neutral because I can manually spin the back wheel with the engine off. That's what I'm talking about. It thinks the bike is in gear but its really not, its just confused. I have cleaned the connections and checked the wire, made sure everything is tight but it still won't work.
Thanks all. Planning on riding it a little more tonight. I'm trying to burn off all the "sitting still" crud that has built up so that when I rebuild I won't be facing these problems again.
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on January 02, 2008, 09:49:07 AM
Tiff, the light has to be triggered by both the neutral switch and the safety relay.

You need to determine if the bulb is bad (easy to reach without taking anything apart) the relay or switch is bad (or a grounded wire).
Run the tests in either the Yamaha manual page 7-3 or the Haynes manual page 148 section 20 & page 149 section 22.

--Lucky
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on January 02, 2008, 11:21:59 AM
BTW, these relays aren't exactly waterproof, not after 25 years or so.  i've opened up lots of them that are loaded with crud.  Electronics cleaner will flush them out. on some of these relays you can unscrew the contact plates & lightly file or sand the contact points.  use your Ohm meter to test the coils.

--Lucky
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Night Vision on January 02, 2008, 06:39:57 PM
Tiff, the light has to be triggered by both the neutral switch and the safety relay.

You might also try pulling the (electric) cable going to the clutch perch out and spray some cleaner into the button end. There's a little hole on the bottom of the connector into the perch to stick a small screwdrive up into to release it.

Use your thumb and push the button in and out a few times/ spray a few times... if that doesn't do it, chase the other end into the headlight bucket and check that end's connection... I think it's the pretty bright green connector inside the nest.

that's pretty easy to do and hopefully fix it, or rule it out.

I had a bad one of those on SmokeBomb. That and a couple of bad relays drove me nuts. damn multiple electric gremlins.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiffanator on January 12, 2008, 07:49:16 PM
GOOD NEWS! Took the bike out for a longer ride today... well... by longer I mean maybe 10 minutes, it was just around the neighborhood and I live in a small neighborhood so it would annoy the neighbors if I went around and around in circles for an hour. So I took it down the road (about 1/4 mile) to my brother's house to feed his cat then made a few laps around the hood.
MORE GOOD NEWS! I have hit a HUGE milestone in this process... Satan's Spawn aka the tank... is now dressed with 2 coats of primer. YAY! Why is this a big deal? Cause I'm finally halfway confident that it leaks no more. The real finale will be in the morning when I check it for any leaks... cause I learned that gas will take off the primer. So if the primer is sticky or missing, I know its leaking. Fingers crossed.
BAD NEWS! I don't think she's charging. I rode down to my bro's house, shut the bike off for maybe 5 minutes, got back on and the starter was noticeably slower and the bike had trouble cranking. Rode it around the neighborhood a little while and shut it off when I got home. Started her up again, starter turning over even slower and she barely cranked after a nice fart.
I was more used to the seating position on the bike this time so was more comfortable on it. Tomorrow I'll run the electrex tests on it to see if my stator is toasted, if it is that throws a big wrench in my plans.
Anyone know how much it costs to have the frame painted?
Oh.. and thanks to everyone for all the help on everything. You guys are a life saver and I'm sure you all can relate to what an awesome feeling it is to know that your hard work has made the bike run.
Tiff.
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Lucky on January 12, 2008, 08:53:50 PM
Oh.. and thanks to everyone for all the help on everything. You guys are a life saver and I'm sure you all can relate to what an awesome feeling it is to know that your hard work has made the bike run.
Tiff.

sorry, no idea what your talking about... :>
Title: Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
Post by: Tiger on January 13, 2008, 11:45:37 AM
BAD NEWS! I don't think she's charging.

Several used, inexpensive one's here girl... 8) http://search.ebay.ca/yamaha-stator_W0QQfromZR41 N_V, me and one or two other's are running used Virago stator's with good success... ;)

                       
8).......TIGER....... 8)