Riders Of Vision

So as I was struggling to get my V started I noticed that every 4th time or so that I would hit the start it would not engage. The motor would wind up but the engine did not turn over. I figured I'd better have a look inside at those starter clutch bolts everyone talks about. Good thing I did. Two of them are completely sheered off and the third is stretched and worn nearly to the breaking point. The clutch looks OK. There is a little damage but not enough to concern me and nothing that should cause a problem as long as there are solid bolts in place.
Where is a good place to look for 12.9 grade bolts? Thats what was in there so I don't want to downgrade as I fix this. I checked my local hardware store and they top out at 11.xx.

P.S. if this motivates you to do your own starter cluch then awsome. First though, read all the guides online (http://www.xz550.com/starterclutch.html), second be sure to place a rag underneath the flywheel as you pull it of (when it pops, springs and rollers go everywhere!) and third I rented a high quality Harmonic Balancer Puller from Shucks for $6 with an $80 refundable deposit. I had to pick up one more screw (90mm x 8x1.25) as they only provide 2 of the three you need, go figure, but it worked like a charm and since this is the one and only time I'll be doing this (fingers crossed) $6 was a hell of a deal.

 :) I've done three starter clutch fixes, (on three seperate "V"s)... ;) I have got it down to under 2 hour's to complete...not a hard job as such. You just have to make sure that you have all you need ready...Tool's, gasket, Red thread locker, an old bath towel/folded sheet to put under the engine...stops parts rolling away into the dark corners of your work area :D :D ;), oil/oil filter, etc...NOTE: DO NOT FORGET  to make a rough template of the left side cover, (cereal box, sheet cardboard, etc), punch out the bolt hole's and insert each bolt that you remove into the hole's...that way you return the right size bolt back to its right place ;)

The three metric hex socket cap screw's that you need should be available at Home Depot/Lowe's, etc... If not, try an industrial supplier...check under Fasteners-Industrial in your yellow page's.

:) Have fun... ;)

             

one difficulty doing the starter clutch bolts is the length of the bolts themselves...

you can easily get the same length that were in there..... but you want a 1 or 2 mm longer bolt...
they usually come in 5mm increments. This means you need to get longer than stock bolts, grind or hacksaw them down to length and then crosscut with a dremel so you can take a punch to the "X" and peen them out... don't forget to put a chaser nut on the bolts before cutting  to clean up the threads, and of course use the red glue.

When Don V was getting ready for the CO ride, I sent him a set that I had already made for my project bike..he was getting ripped off for metric bolts from wherever. Well he needed the metric bolts for the puller too.....

I think the bolts were right around $0.33ea plus the labor which was right around 3 beers.... hey, I took my time and did a nice job :D

Be sure to very carfully inspect the clutch housing for cracks and the rollers for flat spots.  Cracked housings will slip, for sure.

I've no problem with cutting the bolts down, I have a dremel and a bench grinder.

QBS: My clutch housing is cracked at one of three holes around the side, and it slips about 1/16 of a turn around the piece that is bolted to the flywheel. Is this a problem?

Bad news, yes.  Some have had success with welding their cracks.  Most have not.  Only other alternative is an uncracked replacement, which is what I would do in this situation.  I think clutch housings are still dealer available.  But I would try to find used.

If caught before 25k miles, loose starter clutches rarely have cracked housings.

*sigh* Think another example of me doing things the hard way.  I ordered replacement stock ones for the clutch bolts, guessing might as well toss 'em if everyone's getting the non-stock?  I finally got a puller, bought the Craftsman one linked in one of the other threads.

The whole point of the fix is to install slightly longer than stock bolts.  The problem of them coming loose is caused by the originals being a couple threads too short to be adequately peened.

Sorry you ordered the OEM bolts -- at least you have an unmolested bolt to use as a model & cut the new ones you get from the hardware store @ 2 or 3 threads longer.  Hope they weren't too expensive!

H₂O

NAw, coupla bucks each.  I thought the problem was just them working out period, and peening was just a staple of the fix. :( Ah well, should help having an example when going down to NAPA or Fastenal as well.

I'm having trouble finding a replacement gasket. Are they still available? If not, what do you guys do? I am considering finding gasket material and cutting  my own or using liquid gasket, I have some already but the shop guy I always talk to was hesitant about advising that because the liquid stuff can get into oil pathways and block the flow.

Can you post the size of the bolts you find and their hardness? Also where you found them?

(I need to do this job yet :))

Tben,ysppart.com (http://ysppart.com) seem to have them for 7.45 . if not I'll make you one I ahve all the punches and the pattern to make it from. Stay away from gasket goop, it can end up in oil passage ways .

I made my own from sheet gasket material from Schucks.  It sealed up just fine, but was a long and nerve wracking process to cut it out accurately, especially the bolt holes.  One slip of the knife and all your work is toast.  I have one of the cometic gaskets on hand and I can trace it onto the Schucks gasket material for you, but my advice is wait the extra week or 2 and order from YSPPART or Cometic.

Also, get a bunch of long m6 bolts, cut the heads off and screw them in to the block finger tight to hold the gasket in alignment and guide the side cover into place.  Once the cover is lined up, start swapping in the real bolts.

I wonder how many besides me are saying, 'doh' and hitting themselves in the forehead over the long bolt idea? FWIW, I used red permatex gasket 4 yrs ago when I last had my side cover off. The idea is to use a very thin bead, use too much and it can block the oil passages.

Thanks guys, I think I'll go to Schucks tomorrow and try my hand at gasket making.

Pullshocks: thanks for the tip with the screws, thats a great idea.

67GTO: as I keep going I'll post what I found works.

Rick G: what kind of punches do you use?

And don't get fooled like I did where I put the flywheel back on and it turned out the bolt was not screwed in all the way!  I still wonder what I did wrong-and it still scares me that the threads are damaged.  Just a refresher, I did the starter clutch this spring, that center bolt screwed on very tight-thought I had it on all the way-go to start the engine, terrible noise-take the side cover back off-did several more turns of the screw-turned very hard. I wonder if the threads were damaged by the sacrificial bolt??

Anyway, it has held up now for several thousand miles since then.

I've caught several references to this sacrificial bolt, should we get four or is that something with the puller?

Pullshocks: Great tip.  Thanks.

I believe (someone correct me if I have this wrong) but the sacrificail bolt is mainly to keep the puller from going down into your crank.

Quote from: don_vanecek on December 12, 2007, 05:50:03 PM
I believe (someone correct me if I have this wrong) but the sacrificail bolt is mainly to keep the puller from going down into your crank.

:) Curlyrect Don... ;)

Quote from: Tiger on December 12, 2007, 06:07:43 PM

Quote from: don_vanecek on December 12, 2007, 05:50:03 PM
I believe (someone correct me if I have this wrong) but the sacrificail bolt is mainly to keep the puller from going down into your crank.

:) Curlyrect Don... ;)

also....
1) make sure that the head of the sacrificial bolt is small enough in diameter so as not to interfere with removing the rotor, and
2) is tightened flush to the crank (ie short enough) ... or else you'll risk...

1) defeating the puller's purpose which is pushing against the crank to pull the rotor off..
2) end up bending your puller
3) pound down the threads inside the crank.
e) .... ALL OF THE ABOVE


just might hafta try that side case stud trick myself...

Hate when I get a puller in my crank. ;) Wait, that just sounds wrong...

Anyhoo, thanks for the FYI. :)

I hate when that happens !! >:( I hit the wrong key and it all went away!!
Making my own gaskets is the result of working in an "independant" shop with  no parts.

I use 4 tools to make gaskets. A pair of good scissors a exacto knife, a set of gasket punches and a small hammer.

Also, I have a shelf of the type sold in home improvement centres or hardware stores.Its the type used with tracks and brackets. Masionite  would do but plywood and chip board are too irregular.
The hard part of making gaskets is getting / making the pattern. You can't just trace the cover , the gaskets have webs to strengthen them as well as to seal various openings other than the perimeter of the case. You need an old or new gasket to trace. I have  patterns for all the gaskets in the Vision.

Tape the gasket paper on to the shelf and  , using the apropreate size punch carefully create all the holes. The silver dollar sized hole in the right side, is created by using the largest punch 3 or 4 times and cleaning the opening with the exacto knife. Cut the inside first, being careful not to cut across anywhere across the inner line. finally cut the out side with the sicissors. I coat all my gaskets with Gask-a-cinch and set them aside to dry, for 5 minuets,  which allows there reuse two or three times. I can make a gasket in about 10 minuets. as a bonus you can use the centre waste for a base gasket or 2 carb gaskets.
If any one is ever stuck for a gasket, let me know , but as long as their available,they will be cheaper than I can do them.  But, if any one  wants to make there own , I'll sell them a set of templates and they can have at it.
I hate it when the dealer  tells me, "it will take two weeks" . If I wanted them in two weeks ,I'd come in,in two weeks. Irrational , I know , but I'm not a patient person.

Lord give me patience , and give it to me right now!!!

I knew  I missed something when it all went away!!  You can buy a set of gasket hole punches  at Harbor Frieght for $5.99 for those of you (like me ) who don't live near a Harbor Freight they have a web site.

I can't claim credit for the guide bolt idea.  Just repeating what I learned here, but yeah it makes it a lot easier.

Tben, I used a sharp knife similar to exacto, multiple passes of light pressure.  The straight areas can be done with scissors.  for th bolt holes, it's hard to do without punches, but I found I could refine them with a sharp reamer.

You know I really wonder if perhaps I did not have the sacrifical bolt screwed flush and didn't pound down my threads a bit-hence why it screwed back together so hard!

I wonder I wonder I wonder just why
the bird lays an egg but the egg cannot fly
the egg has a shell but still it will crack
I still wonder what is the meaning of that?

Haven't been on two wheels for a month now, I'm going crazy!

Tips regarding gaskets:  To increase ones chances of being able to reuse a gasket, coat both sides of the gasket with wheel bearing grease, then install the gasket as usual.  Use no sealant, just the grease.

To punch small bolt size holes in the gasket, place the gasket on a flat piece of soft wood (think pine), use a hammer and a bolt about the size of the desired hole to punch the desired hole through the gasket.  Hammer on the bolt head to drive the threaded end of the bolt through the gasket material and just a little way into the wood.  This can be done with no damage to the bolt.

Well, the bolts are in and peened and drowned in red loctite. I forgot to put the washer in before I bolted the clutch down and at first I thought it would only fit if I took everything apart, DOH! There was no way I was going to redo all my work unless I absolutely had to so a little flexing (of the washer) and some prodding with a screw driver got it in place. I could not for the life of me get the balancer back in place though until I turned the crank to have the key on top, then it went on like a charm. It only took me a half dozen tries, droping rollers and springs everywhere before I figured this out. For those who remember back I spoke of a crack in my clutch, it was only a hairline crack in the cover piece, not in the main body so I'm gonna leave it be.

I also made a new gasket. I traced the old one onto a PBR box to make a template then traced that onto my gasket material. After cutting it out with scissors and a fresh razor blade I coated it in gasket sealer (red tacky stuff) and set it to dry on a paper towel, DOH! Bits of paper towel are now permanently stuck all over my gasket. Its bed time now so I'll have to make another tomorrow.

For those about to do this:
My local hardware store had M8x1.25x16mm Cap screws of 12.9 hardness that worked great. I ground of the tapered tip and one thread. I'm crossing my finger that they will not be sticking out to far.

Thats all for now,
Good night, and good luck.

Tben, Does the clutch pressure plate have  casting seam,or is it really cracked ? if it is I would get a new one ! Its under a bit of a load  and might fly apart under load. Some one ,including me, will have a good one. by the way forget the red goop its nasty .
I use Gask-a- cinch which  forms a thin rubbery coating that prevent the gasket from sticking to the case and destructing on removal the next time.It an old time product  that non of the "new" guys seem to know about. I was using it in 1962 and it goes back much farther than that.  Grease is ok, but  will turn some gaskets too soft.

Rick G: I'll try to find that Gask-a-sinch stuff, thats what I was going for but got the wrong stuff. The steel plate on top of the starter clutch assembly is definitely cracked across one of the holes around the perimiter. It holds on tight but there is no doubt that it was damaged. Is this piece replaceable without getting a whole new clutch plate?

Also, I don't have the two dowels that fit into the crankcase cover (#6 on the crankcase diagram). Are these critical or can I do without?

Those dowels help to hold the gasket in place when your putting the cover back on.I'm surprised you cant get the gasket from Yamaha thats where i got mine $11-12 there is a reusable gasket out there.... forget name ask or search.....but I was able to reuse the gasket from Yamaha no problems when my peened redo backed out >:( after 1500mi. or so ::) ......second time I used lots more loctite and cut the end for easier peening....first time I thought I peened the crap out of them......but when a noise showed up I knew exactly where to look....and what do you know one bolt was broke the other two were way lose...hopefully this time its good to go for a while....put yamabond or equal. only where the wiring grommet is......... not around the case and you should be able to reuse gasket if need be............I also had a heck of a time putting things back together without pieces dropping out  ::).

I made my own gaskets more for the learning experience and to satisfy my impatience than for any other reason. I don't like waiting for small holdups on big projects. >:( ;) ;D
When you say you split the bolt on you second try do you mean you cut it across the diameter and spread it so it couldn't back out?
One other thing I did was take a dremel and grind/buff out all the indentations and scuffs caused by the starter clutch dowel thingamajiggers (the bits that fall out when you pull the flywheel off). I figured the more free they were to move the better.

Tben , you need the dowels , I can fix you up. Gask-a-cinch is in a can with a dawber  in side , the label is white with red writing and a picture of a girl, who is falling on her a** and her skirt is flying up . The stuff started out as a belt dressing. Its even better after you use it a bit , it thickens up.

awsome! I know just what your talking about know with the gask-a-cinch. I'll pm you about those dowels.

Quote from: tben on December 14, 2007, 01:58:31 AM
For those about to do this:
My local hardware store had M8x1.25x16mm Cap screws of 12.9 hardness that worked great. I ground of the tapered tip and one thread. I'm crossing my finger that they will not be sticking out to far.

I'm about to pick up some of these, did they stick out too far?  Thanks. :)

They worked great. Long enough but not to long. ;)

Shiny thanks. :)

I think I may have this starter clutch problem now as well  >:( . She was starting fine except today I started her and heard a loud "kerchunk"  :o ...wasn't sure what it was but she started. Rode her about a block and she started to sound  like she was drowning in gas or running out then stalled  :-[ . Tried to start but all I got was slow turn then click  ??? . Got her to start and again "kerchunk" and stalled (while in neutral)  >:( . It sounds like something catches and gets thrown once really hard on the left side case. She wont start now even push start  :'( . Battery is not an issue anymore - No oil in starter - new starter brushes.

Quote from: achie on January 13, 2008, 08:27:13 PM
Battery is not an issue anymore - No oil in starter - new starter brushes.

starter clutch will only make noise while engine is running below 2500 rpm. above that it stops (centrifigul force)

never discount a bad battery, even if it's recently new, & starter could be a tooth off, but that wouldn't make noise running.