Lazarus rises from the dead again!?

[RussD]

Thought I'd move this out to it's own thread....Should of thought of that last night before putting it on the "Conversations with Electrex" one.......

OK........She pulled the Lazarus bit on me again tonight. I told you that it died on me at the gas station earlier today. I left it there and walked home (only about 5 or 6 blocks). I finally got my lazy butt up to go get her a little bit ago. Walked over there, and SURPRISE......She turned right over & fired up! I was able to ride her home.
 
My question is this.........I know Rick told me last week that the chemical reaction of the battery will partially recharge itself, even when previously dead, but I've got another question/theory. My first car was a 1980 Ford Fairmont Futura. One summer it developed similar symptoms as my Vision is exhibiting. Once the motor warmed up on it, after half hour or so as I recall, it would suddenly cut out while driving......didn't matter where or when or at what speed......just like my Vision. I'd have to let it sit for awhile, cool down, and then it would miraculously restart.
 
Turned out it was the computer module on the inside fender. Apparently the circuits would get hot & separate, thereby causing the cutout. Once the circuits cooled off, they would contract again, make contact, and the car would run for a bit until they heated up again. $35 and a new computer module later, and she was running trouble free again.
 
Could a similar situation be happening with my Vision? Is there some sort of computer module on it as well that could be doing the same thing as my old Futura? Just a thought.
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P.S.....Hey Rick & Lucky........Did you get my post on that other thread about me possibly being the prime test case in your theory about a new stator frying since I just put mine in within the last 4-6 weeks? What do you think........Would having my stator tested help sort this thing out? I haven't broke down & bought a voltage meter yet (don't know what I'd do with it if I did!! ? ;)),but I could always run it over to the Yamaha dealership & have them test the wires if you guys thought that would help answer some questions.

I know I'm a complete greenhorn here, but it's just hard for me to believe that oil temperature could have deteriorated my stator this quickly. Especially when it's not like I've been riding the bike every day, all day for the last 6 weeks, and temps have been COOL here in Ohio. ? :o

[Rick G]

I don't believe that yours is a case of over heating , that takes a long time. But an open diode will over heat a stator, as will a shorted one , so its possable the R/R  ate the new stator . Also I am interested in the physical condition of the stator once you get it out.
As to the  temporary open circuit in a module , yes the TCI is cuch a Module but I believe you said that you were suffering from a dead battery and that dosen't involve the TCI module.

[Walt_M.]

Yep, I agree with Rick, your R/R ate your stator. Too bad you don't have a meter to test it. I just got the neatest meter at Radio Shack, it is about 1 1/2 in by 3 1/2 in and reasonably accurate. I was going to mount it on the panel in the fairing but, since it isn't weather proof, I'll probably keep it in the tank bag and install a jack for voltage readings. That way, I can keep a closer eye on it and head off stator overheating, I hope!

[Rick G]

I believe that every Vision should have some sort of device that monitors the battery voltage and charge rate at all times.
I have a 6 led  device that is sold as an automotive diagnostic tool, I hard wired it in and any time the key is on, it shows whats happening. With the key on and the engine off it shows 3 doides lit and when the engine starts  it shows all six lit. AS my stator went south  it showed some flickering of the charge diodes and gradually  they showed less and less charge , with  the charge monitoring  diodes  being only partially lit . it cost me  7.95 and it saved my bacon , it warned my that I should head home , PRONTO!

[Rick G]

I suspect that if I had shut the bike down immeaditly and trucked it home I would not have had to buy a stator! This failure was not and old stator failure it was caused by the R/R.

[RobTx]

I have one of these from Radio Shack, $5.99.
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F011%5F008%5F003%5F000&product%5Fid=22%2D112
Rob

[RussD]

Yep, I agree with Rick, your R/R ate your stator.

So does that mean my r/r is bad as well then?

[Rick G]

You bet!  Its not worth another toasted stator  to risk it.
I'm going to use one from a CX500 or the Kawasaki one . The testing chart in the factory book is bunk! They don't show any way to check the voltage regulator section. (and I don't think that there is a valid way to do it) The proof is to start the bike with a meter on the battery  and watch VERY carefully  before you even think of riding the thing!

[Rick G]

Thanks Rob  thats the thing I have on my bike, I espicially like it because it shows up ghreat at night!

[RussD]

I just put that r/r on last summer. When you say check the battery before chancing riding it, do you mean even now that I already know I've got problems? So you actually have that battery tester permanently mounted on your bike Rick? I just thought those were a simplistic testing tool.......not permanently mounted hardware.

So in essence, you're saying that I wasted a hundred fifty bucks last summer for the salvage r/r & labor, and another $166 this summer for the BRAND NEW stator, and I'm right back to square one........Like pissin' that $300 away on nothin'!?! And to top all that, apparently we've come to the conclusion that we need a heavier duty r/r, which doesn't currently exist unless Lucky has any luck with Ritzo at Electrex, to handle the constantly maxed current, or else this is going to keep happening over & over & over again!!!

Ya' know gentleman.......My wife once told me that the clinical definition of insanity is not having the ability to learn from previous mistakes! This bike is getting to be like one of those pretty girls who's a real B@#CH........After awhile, the looks aren't worth all the bulls@#t anymore!!

[Walt_M.]

There is a good chance that the salvage R/R you got for $150 was bad, especially if you weren't able to test it. And that is why your stator died its horrible death.

[wolfman]

Ya' know gentleman.......My wife once told me that the clinical definition of insanity is not having the ability to learn from previous mistakes! This bike is getting to be like one of those pretty girls who's a real B@#CH........After awhile, the looks aren't worth all the bulls@#t anymore!!

Actually I heard the definition was repeating the same behavior again and again and expecting different results...making ALL Vision owners certifiable!  (LOL)

[Rick G]

I'm amazed that you had to pay that  much, I bought a used  CX500 R/R for 30.00 today (they have several more)   But I'm still loking for a Kawasaki one.
 What I'm saying about the battery is to chard ge it before you start the engine  and have a volt meter connected to the  battery   to monitor whats going on.
 The tester I mentioned  IS a simple tool , but there is no reason not to mount it on some doube sided tape and hard wire it in, either that  or  mount  an automotive type volt meter  on the bike.
Ancient Limey bikes came with an amp meter (but a Volt meter is much better.)
You've had bad luck  with your stators BUT I'm still interested in what you can tell us  when you take the cover off!

[RussD]

You're missing my point guys.......From everything that's been talked about on the "Conversations with Electrex" thread of Lucky's, it seems that any current available r/r is going to continually fry our stators because of this fixed magnet design of Yamaha's on our bike.

I've said many times before that I'm no electrician, but the one overiding theme I took from all those posts was that with this design, we are continually going to get the same result.....sooner or later......because of that r/r. So who's to say that if I spend another $80 (that's what the salvage one cost, + the labor for putting that & the CDI box in) or spring for the $130 for the new Electrex, which would be my 3rd r/r on this bike in 2 years, that's this isn't going to keep happening over & over & over again???

When I spend the money, time & effort to fix something, I expect to see progress, not the same situation all over again. I have no faith at this point that if I put a new r/r in, and another stator, that my charging problems will be over. Furthermore.......even if it did work right for awhile, I'd always be waiting for the other shoe to drop, because from what we discussed on that other thread, it eventually will. The system will keep producing too much juice all the time and continue to fry everything. It seems that there are only a few of us who have been lucky enough to not have this problem.

Like I said before.......You shouldn't have to replace 3 parts just because one is bad, but you're afraid if you don't replace everything new that the old r/r will fry the new stator. When I put a new alternator in my car last year, I didn't go replacing the entire electrical system, installing a battery meter in my dash, and soldering all my connections together "just to be safe". I put the new alternator in, and that was it....problem solved. We shouldn't have to be this paranoid!! I don't think I'll ever trust this bike on any sort of major trip now for as long as I own it (which may not be too much longer).

To keep using the same parts, and taking the same actions over & over again, yet expecting a different result than before is INSANE!!  We're not changing anything in the equation, so we are continually going to get the same result. The stator & r/r are just the symptoms........they're not the problem. The problem is our system produces too much juice, or is "always on" as someone else said, even once the battery has reached full charge. I'm not smart enough or skilled enough to fix that problem, so all I can do is sit here & be extremely frustrated, hoping one of you smarter guys finds the solution for all of us, or that Lucky is successful in convincing Electrex to modify their part to make it heavier duty to handle the increased juice.

[Lucky]

first, it seems we are currently experiencing a "rash" of charging system failures, all at once. (probably solar flairs, lol)  generally speaking though, the only time we usually hear the questions are when there are newbies. (and despite how many stars are under your name on the left side of the screen, we have also had a rash of newbies lately.)

Secondly, when ALL the other steps that are suggested are applied, the charging system becomes much more reliable.  and when I say ALL I mean it.  

On a recent post, I asked how many of you have done all the steps?
I'm talking about cleaning all EVERY SINGLE ONE of the bikes electrical connectors,
PROPERLY testing the charging circut, (and if you don't have the knowlage or equipment required to do it, you will need to get it.  Relying on the shops top give you a straight answer will not help your situqation out any)
soldering the connections
moving the R/R to cooler quarters
properly maintaining the battery
not introducing excessive loads on the system (bad starter seal or over cranking)
etc etc etc.

these are 20 year old + bikes, and that is what is needed...

[RussD]

(and despite how many stars are under your name on the left side of the screen, we have also had a rash of newbies lately.)

Hey Lucky.....If that's directed towards me, that's fine.......I've never claimed to be anything other than a newbie

[Lucky]

No Russ, not directed particuarly at you, mearly a statement of fact.  If that sounded like I'm annoyed, that wasn't the intent.

my point remains though, the testing procedures shouldn't be difficult to figure out, & if anyone needs help understanding them, that's why we are here.  What does annoy me is when someone can't figure out what's wrong, asks for and gets good advice but still skips steps anyway.  that has happened here.  I guess you can't help some people, all the steps are importaint.

[RussD]

my point remains though, the testing procedures shouldn't be difficult to figure out, & if anyone needs help understanding them, that's why we are here. ?What does annoy me is when someone can't figure out what's wrong, asks for and gets good advice but still skips steps anyway. ?that has happened here. ?I guess you can't help some people, all the steps are importaint.

I'll use myself as an example Lucky, even though you say that's not particularly directed towards me. I openly state on here that I'm OK with nuts & bolts, but electrical baffles me. Not disputing you guys give good advice on here......Lord knows you walked me through the stator swap, but when you start talking electrical, you may as well be speaking Latin (Case in point........that thread about adding the fuel gauge for switching to reserve & resistors & diodes etc......though I really did enjoy your comparison of electrical system to water.......helped me make sense of it).

But no matter how good of advice you give, not everyone is as gifted as some of you guys are mechanically. I've always been the guy who gets something apart, and either can't figure out how to get it back together, or breaks it doing so. Everyone has different talents, or things they find come easy to them, but that doesn't mean it's that easy for everyone.........Just ask Michael Jordan, Bill Gates or Einstein   ;)  I felt OK trying to change my stator & will do my r/r again if I keep the bike. Chasing wires though & looking for grounds/shorts........At this point, that's out of my comfort/knowledge level, and unfortunately I don't have anyone nearby to show/teach me, so therefore, it goes undone.

[Rick G]

What everyone keeps forgetting (when they chastize Yamaha) is that this design is VERY common on smaller lower priced  bikes and is also very reliable for the most part.  My first bike had a fairly new stator when I bought it  and ran 17,000 miles farther, befor it failed . Thats not outstanding, but is better than many get . Many others have  similar success  , not all Visions eat the stator in 3000 miles or less. . I'm curious as to what happens to shorten the life of  those stators.