Anyone try a different Regulator/Rectifier to help reduce stator failures?

[Walt_M.]

I guess things were different in the stone age.

[AdvRich]

I'll leap.... I'm getting (I think) what your saying about the given interaction of the magnets and the iron Walt. If I'm thinking right  :D... The factory Viz electric architecture shunts the balance of full stator output that is not used to charge or run lights, etc. The newer version RR's being discussed manage it more efficiently with only using what is needed = less load or electromagnetic drag... freer revs or as I read it faster revving engine?

[Rikugun]

less load or electromagnetic drag... freer revs or as I read it faster revving engine?

There may be something to this but It's not my area of expertise. Certainly, with older AC generator designs (field powered by Electra/mechanical regulator), the higher the charge rate the more drag. Later designs having permanent magnet AC alternator w/combined regulator/rectifiers are somewhat of a mystery.

No manufacturer has ever divulged the complete details on what lurks inside the epoxy filled housing. It is highly protected proprietary info (esp the FET designs) and published schematics are someones educated guess on how it might work.  If you've ever examined the factory diagram of the internals and thought it represented the components in their entirety, you would be mistaken.

As the magnet spins around the wire-wrapped iron stator, one assumes X amount of power is produced and subsequent electromagnetic resistance is realized. What if a R/R design had stator leg(s) opened or grounded as needed to control output? If the power was never generated, wouldn't this effect electromagnetic drag? This in contrast to the "constant stator output, then rectified and it's excess output shunted" theory.

Feel free to quote and argue my hypothesis but I won't respond.  :P It doesn't matter to me. There is sufficient anecdotal evidence that the mosfet design charges more- even at lower RPMs, while running cooler, and possibly extending stator life. I don't know about you guys, but that was sufficient reason for me to try it when the time came.  :)  The time came   :'(

When I put my bike together last spring, the stator was on it's way to black and crispy. It lasted til late September. As time permitted, I began my research for a new charging system. Some may have read my initial trouble sourcing a stator that fit. That's been rectified (pun intended) and I've also sourced a beautiful MOSFET R/R. I won't be able to report the results until spring but I'm feeling fairly confident about the mod. However, I don't expect my '82 Vision to rev like an '82 YZ125 as a result of the mod and therefore won't feel a difference in that respect. If you, on the other hand, think it will rev faster, you probably will feel a difference!

[davexz]

I did.  How do you think the starter works.  Current flowing in a coil of wire creates a magnetic field.  When you are charging it is resisting the permanent magnets.  If the current is turned off the resistance should be gone.  At least thats how I always thought, but maybe I'm wrong.  I have been before ;)

[davexz]

Just to make a little sense of my last post it was in response to Walt's earlier post about going to school.  I keep forgetting to go to page 2 of the posts. As far as the drag I bet there is some difference if it is a switcher design instead of a shunt but probably not enough to talk about.  I do have to go with the idea of the new transistor R&Rs running cooler though.  The charge duty cycle would be less, hence less current flow, hence less heat.  I won't know until I get one going this spring and drive awhile though,

[fret not]

I have an extra unit if anyone is interested.  They don't test with meters like the silicon units, and I was pursuing a "good" one instead of the "bad" ones I got, but after finally rigging up some test leads and actually putting them into a known functional system they all tested good much to my chagrin. :-[  Anyway, I have listed one in the Swap Shop.  It seems pretty cool watching the meter as the revs go from idle to 10,000 rpm and the digits on the meter stay the same with no fluctuation.  How do they do that?

[Walt_M.]

Dave, the attraction of the rotating magnet in the flywheel to the ferrous core of the stator does not change appreciably regardless of whether or not current is being generated. BTW, 1 horsepower equals 746 watts. Multiply the Vision output of approx 22 amps and 14 volts and you get 308 watts. Racers will remove the stator for that 1/2 hp but most of us wouldn't notice. If you want to check for 'feel' with no output, just unplug the stator and go for a ride.

[supervision]

I agree, Walt, that it might be over stating that their may be less engine drag, but I still am going to try one as soon as I get around to it. Their must be something to it or the OEM's sure wouldn't go to the trouble of spec'n them on some new bikes.   I am very curious to "watch" that thing control the voltage!  This may be the kind of change, that makes  a crummy charging system liveable.

[fret not]

Not to throw mud in the water but if you have used a generator to power anything you have noticed that when you apply an electrical load the motor lugs down a bit and then recovers as the governor takes over and evens the RPM with the load.  The rotor is spinning near the stator as before the load was applied.  I think electrical load does make a difference in the drag on the motor.  It may not make a lot of difference in the long run, and it may be splitting hairs so to speak but electrical load is not the same thing as the the alternator spinning with no load.

[Re-Vision]

Electrical load makes a difference whether you are drawing full load current like the Vision does or simply generating Voltage without a load. You would have to remove stator windings or magnets to have a zero electrical load.    BDC

[jasonm.]

I have 2 Mosfet R/R units. SINCE BOTH BY BIKES ARE RUNNING GOOD. Lazy me have not put them on my 'cycles yet. Mine are rated for 50 amps FH0012AA . Yet are larger than the Vision one ONE WAY BUT THE MOUNTING HOLES ARE THE SAME SPACING. I think they are for the New Vmax and R1. Brand new.I got a deal...less the $50 ea. Retail I think is 3 or 4 times that.  FYI, these do  not use the brown "sense wire".

[motoracer8]

Supervision, I use the standard Yamaha RR and Stator, the stator is the latest they offered, the plastic was a different color. I removed the OE connector and used a Bosch connector, alittle more robust than the standard one. I cut a piece of aluminum sheet about 4" square and put it between the RR and the battery box, a couple of flat washers between the plate and battery box for alittle more air circulation, made shure all grounds were clean and tight. I use a good quality AGM battery, I have a OE headlamp switch and leave the headlamp off most of the time.  I have over 30,000 miles on this set up with no issues.   

I think many charging issues with motorcycles are cheep poor quality batteries and not keeping them charged. Motorcycle batteries have a tough job, most of them are too small in capasity for the applaction, then add poor quality.

I have a 08 BMW thats on it's second battery, it's too small for the load and is of questionable quality, the charging system is fine.

   Ken

[supervision]

 Hey Ken thanks for the reply, so you leave your lite off ? when you ride?  Please note if your case gets hot when your lite is on.  I'M hep to all things to look for, and my case runs about 300.  I, do run a Napa off road lite, 100/130w, and of course, it's on, I have run about 10,000 mile per stator.  Also, my r/r has never failed, but I put a larger, Shadow one out in the breeze, and it has been hard wired, and plug wired, never mattered, cause is wasn't heating up at all.  My 60,000 mile engine is broken, at the moment, so soon I am changing to a new to me 12,000 (virgin) motor, boy am I excited, hope to finally meet you soon!  Maybe at Sears Point AHRMA 2011?

[motoracer8]

 Yes I leave the lights off most of the time, there is no headlamp on law in California, except some streches of  two lane hwy. I know it's a safety issue with many.  There is a bigger load on the system with the lights on, because at idle when I turn the lights on the idle speed will drop some.  I've never measured the temp of the cover but it's never been hot enough to boil water.  I do run the standard 55/60W lamp, I don't ride the Vision much at night.

   Ken

[George R. Young]

Yes I leave the lights off most of the time . . .

With the stock Vision charging circuit, leaving the lights off just delivers more current, and therefore heat, to the regulator/rectifier. It has no impact on the alternator, which continues to deliver full output all the time.

If you want to prevent alternator failure, you could disconnect one of the 3 alternator output leads at the same time you disconnect the headlight. FYI, this was how the stock CB160 Honda worked - turning on the headlight connected another alternator winding.

[Rikugun]

Idle drop when the lights are switched on contradicts the notion that the Vision alternator delivers full output all the time regardless of load. What could account for the apparent increase in load with lights on?

Also, disconnecting one ac leg might increase it's longevity but when the remaining 2 die, doesn't that render the third leg useless?

[motoracer8]

 George, I am aware of how the system works and don't want to start any big arguements, just my observation, when idleing about 1200 rpm, my Vision will drop about 100 rpm when the lights are switched on, measured voltage is the same lights on or off, I've never measured the amprage draw mabe that would tell the tail.

I have'nt had the charging issues that many of you on this site have had.  I have a friend with a 80's Suzuki thats cooked two stators, both times a dealer replaced the stator and no regulator, both stators were short lived, he was about to sell the bike, I told him to let me take a look, I advised him to buy a new stator, regulator and a new battery, I installed the parts and made a new battery to engine ground, yes it was a bit of money to spend on a 25 year old M/C but it is in perfect condition in every other way, other than replacing the battery there have been no other issues with the bike in the past 6/7 years.

The Vision uses a 3 phase charging system, it probbably would not be a good idea to disconnect one leg of the stator.  The old Hondas used a single phase charging system and when you switched the lights on it added the output of one more coil that was seperate from the rest.  I have used a modern single phase RR on the old bikes and wired the extra lighting coil in with the rest to get alittle more output at lower rpm's as they were alittle week, 120 to 140 watts, not much now days as many want to run the lights all the time.

   Ken

[Coil Coyle]

Walt_M's right on the drag thing. Scientific reality is the common bond we share  ;D

I pulled a Venture regulator from the "Flying Pig"s parts bike to replace the toasted one on Dean Nichol's Vision.
It has the same set of wires as a Vision but duplicated twice in a bigger heat sink.
I can't really judge reliability until I run over to Rick_G's again but it does not get hot and it's toasted stator is now in an oil bath.

$0.02
;)
Coil

[Lucky]

and it's toasted stator is now in an oil bath.

does that mean you have the toasted stator sitting in a pan of oil, or are you somehow dousing the running stator in oil (with a Venture crank bolt, or similar)?

[Cdnlouie]

I am developing some serious interest in this style of RR unit. I may just get my hands on one if I can find a decent price and get it into a serious test on the Vision.  This is Series type (not a mosfet) as opposed to Shunt (mosfet included here although it is a more efficient shunt RR) which apparently (from what others say) handles the voltage in a different manner.  The shunt runs voltage continuously under load, but the Series is supposed to shut off the load in an intermittent way thereby lessening heat build up in the stator.

That is the stated theory and certainly deserves some attention as it could be a major help to the Vision.  It is still being tested in the Aprilia forum (man do they have problems with toasting stators, make the Vision look angelic  :angel:), the GS forum and the results should be in by the end of next season.  So far so good on anyone who has used the cycletronics unit or the compufire brand.

You can source the more reasonable model here at:

http://www.jpcycles.com/product/382-711#  $134 -149.00

Cycle Electric Inc. 3-Phase Rectifying Regulator
Fitment Note: For (P/N 382-705) Cycle Electric 3-phase charging system kit ONLY
• Designed for use with 382-705 3-phase charging system
• Can be used with any 3-phase stator

Here is what they advertise for this unit: 

• Blocks current to control voltage which reduces stator current resulting in lower temperature and less drag on the motor and more efficient operation

• The largest and most noticeable benefit is a smoother charge to the battery which means less battery maintenance and longer battery life

• Capable of handling overloads and continuous operation

• Made of top quality materials and military specific assembly processes that ensure a low failure rate and the longest service life