HELP! Doing valves and having a problem

[h2olawyer]

Hi all -

Just getting the V ready for some long rides this summer and decided to check the valves.  Three are just a touch to thr tight side of specs.  Got everything apart & measured.  Using the Yamaha valve tool, I cannot get the shims loose at all.  There is plenty of room under the cams and the tool does not appear to be touching the shim.

I've tried prying gently with a small screwdriver and using a blast from the compressor - both methods are suggested by the Haynes manual and the Yamaha manual.  The shims feel like they might be wedged in the buckets.

Anyone who has done this in the past have any helpful hints I can try tomorrow?  Want to get this done so I can go on a good ride Sunday.

No more time tonight - have an astro outreach event I need to get ready for by sunset.  Will be hoping for some helpful suggestions between now and around 8 or 9 (MDT) Friday 6/24.

Thanks in advance!

H₂O

Oh yeah - forgot to add:
One of the plastic oil caps (that go on the heads under the valve covers) on each cylinder happened to drop down the cam chain gallery.  Anyone have a cute idea about how to retrieve them?  I'm going to get a grabber tool and might try some goo on the end of a chain to see if I can snag them.  They are just plastic - if I can get new ones from Yamaha or off one of my other engines - would it really hurt anything to leave them in the galleries and let the cam chains & sprockets chew them up?  Don't want to do that, but I might have no real choice.

[supervision]

  h2, welcome to the club, as I have had the same exact same problems! I pulled the case off and got out the plug, maybe it wasn't necessary, but at the time, it seamed the thing to do. As far as the shims being hard to get out, you are right there for sure!! You play with them long enough they pop lose, then they are still   nearly imposable to extract!!  Does that help? 

[Night Vision]

there is a lot of suction holding the valve shims in place... that oil film can be a bear to break...

if you are positive the tool isn't impeding the shims, and you have the notches in a good spot to get a small screwdriver under the shim.... they should pop up with an audible "snap" and can be extracted with a hemostat or one of those magnets on a telescoping stick... I like the latter.

for me, it's one of those hold your breath moments.... I have good ole hexagon shaft screwdriver that I've used multiple times... and I know that sucker is tempered and made of good stock... but I still hold my breath...

as far as the plastic plug? that's always been a worry for me and when reassembly time comes... I dab some grease on them and peak under the valve cover to make sure they are still there...

I guess Kwells now has a shop near you.... maybe he can assist?

[Lucky]

the big problem is the oil suction.  last time i did mine i found that soaking it down with brake cleaner with the straw tube helped. then i quickly did the blast of air & pointy pick at the same time.  worked pretty good.

[Re-Vision]

H20, have extra plastic parts if you need them. Let me know and I'll send them.     BDC

[fret not]

Chewed up plastic probably wouldn't hurt any metal but if it blocks an oil orifice you could be in BIG TROUBLE. :o :police: ;)

[Oz Vision]

Try a magnet on a telescopic arm. Worked for me.   

[Cdnlouie]

I fished one of those caps out of my transmission case from some previous service job. Not sure how long it had been there, but spotted it one day during an oil change.  I looked into the oil drain hole and wondered what on earth was floating around in my engine.  If you can't get it, then keep your eyes peeled when draining the oil (do it hot or warm) and it may well find it self right down where you can get in and pull it out  :-\.

[h2olawyer]

Thanks for all the awesome answers.  I'm about to headout to the garage to get back at the project.  Will also be fixing a small oil leak and removing the stator cover.  Maybe I can get to that oil plug with the cover off.  Will let y'all know what I finally get done and how I retrieve the plugs.  Good to know that this is a typical problem.

Does it take a lot of force to get the shim to pop up?  I'm a little concerned of damaging the edge of the head!

The only valves out of spec are on the rear cylinder & they are not far out.  Just a couple thousandths on the tight side.  Both exhaust valves and one intake.  Ashamed to admit it, but this is the first time they've been checked (ever) and I have over 18,000 miles on it.

Need to go get more tools (a flexible grabber & a magnet on a stick).  Cool - another trip to a tool store!  This time, it's going to be Harbor Freight.  Was at Sears yesterday and replaced my el-cheapo metric wrenches with a nice set of Craftsmans and did the same with my screwdrivers.  They were on a pretty good sale.

H₂O

[Rikugun]

Now that you have a new set of screwdrivers you might consider dressing an old small slotted into a mini prybar for the shim removal. I ground one down so the blade tip was fairly thin and bent it slightly for better leverage and have used it on many shim over bucket engines.

As others have stated the oil film creates a strong grip that can be tough to break. You only need to pry up slightly to break that grip and the thinned edge of the tool I described works well. A blunt edge just won't get under the shim edge properly. A magnet is not recommended in some manuals but I've used one in conjunction with the "pry bar" to capture and withdraw the shim once loosened.

[Cdnlouie]

The shims do need the right instrument to get under and pry it up.  As Lucky said the oil does lock it up so a bit of brake cleaner could be helpful.  I have never had any trouble sometimes using a good dental pick (a larger end type) that goes into the slot and break the oil seal.  Otherwise grind down a high quality screwdriver (don't overheat) with a narrow flat edge to go into the slot and try prying up the shim.

Sometimes I have gone into the slot (two of them in side of the bucket) with a flat screwdriver (about a no. 2) and balanced on one of the sharp bucket edges on the slot (orient the slot toward you to do this) while pushing the screwdriver edge (usally the right side of the screwdriver edge) against the side of the shim (right in the bucket slot), which gives you a bit of leverage directly on the shim and it will "pop" out by trying this a few times. The bucket is very hard steel so the edge can take the prying pressure of the screwdriver. It takes a bit of practice until you get the feel for "popping" them and then it becomes easy. Don't be afraid of giving it all the pressure you can muster as it needs it. It all about a smooth wrist action when you do it.  You may even need to jam another screwdriver on the other slot of the bucket to keep it from turning when you do this.

You can get creative and eventually it comes together for you.  Perhaps the most important part of this process is actually doing an accurate measurement.  Most people who have no experience with doing valves will set them too loose. They do not realize that a proper setting requires the right amount "drag" on the feeler gauge. Whenever I show someone they always say that they didn't realize that it required so much drag.  The gauge should pull out with steady resistance and not loosely pass under the cam lobe.

[QBS]

Excellent discussion.  You guys are great.  I've learned enough to be dangerous.  Hopefully cool heads will prevail.

[Re-Vision]

I use a machinist's scribe and it works well when removing shims. (Steel points at both ends with one being a 90 degree bend)      BDC

[h2olawyer]

We Have Success!

I got the oil plugs fished out.  One was damaged beyond repair, the other is pristine.  Also got the shims out.  It was just the oil film causing the suction.  Went to Harbor Freight and picked up a new set of dental type picks.  It was pretty easy getting one of those under the shim & breaking the suction.  The shims just popped up easily after that.

So, all I need to do now is visit my local Stealer.  I know they have the shims but I wonder if they have the oil plug in stock.  If not, I might need to head down to Denver tomorrow, visit Kevin Wells and pick one up from him.  Trying to get it all back together by tomorrow afternoon so I can do the big ride up Trail Ridge Road on Sunday.

Thanks all for your hints, tips & suggestions.  Nice to see things are just as I remember them around here.  Y'all are terrific!

H₂O

[Rikugun]

Glad to hear you were able to retrieve the plugs. That must be a relief!  :)

If the Yam stealer can't help with the shims (and if you have a Kawi dealer nearby) you can also use early KZ 900/1000 shims.

[The Prophet of Doom]

Dealer prices are about $US18
Post the shim sizes you need here. 
Someone is bound to have the right ones and will swap for your old ones for $1 postage

[h2olawyer]

Project Completed.  I moved 2 of the shims around and my local dealer traded me for the shim I needed - no charge.

Tried to cure a small oil leak, but discovered it is the starter / engine interface O ring & I didn't have one handy.  So, I'll be a mini Exxon Valdez for a few days, until I can get to that project.

Between all the astronomy outreach events and dealing with my mom's estate & probate, I've been rather busy.  Had to make a trip to Wyoming last week to visit with some county government officials and a lawyer.  I don't need to open a separate probate in Wyoming!  (Yippee!)  Things will slow down just a little next week.  By mid-July, I should be able to relax a little more again.  I've had major stuff to do all month - since mom died.  Still have a couple solid day's work to do this week, getting mom's real estate and car retitled.  Shouldn't be too difficult, just time consuming.

Thanks again for all the help.  I'll be picking up 3 more Visions next month and begin restoring them.  Two are 83s in good shape and there's even a full set of new 83 decals!  Going to do a full factory OEM restoration on one 83 and do a slight custom (mainly paint) to the other.  The third V is an 82 that needs some work.  I'll probably mix & match parts with Tractor and make one good runner out of those two.  I'll also put my 82 back to the same shape it was in when I bought it.  Take off the full fairing and install a Shark, get it repainted and all cleaned up.  Plan to sell a couple of them when they're done - probably in the spring of 2012.  Will keep the restored 83 and my original 82.  The 83 will probably be mostly a show type bike, but will get ridden just enough to stay rideable ~ 50 miles a month or so.

Shopping for a better long distance tourer.  The V is great and did well on my ride last fall, but I want something with a little more power and more modern suspension.  There's a copper colored 2003 Suzuki SV1000S at a local dealer with under 5K miles that looks really sweet.  Wish it were a shaft drive.  Another dealer has a low mile 2004 Triumph Trophy 1200 Tourer.  That's probably more bike than I really want, but it sure looks comfortable for the long hauls!

H₂O

[QBS]

Be sure and sit on the Suzuki before you buy it.  You may find the ergonomics to be less than exciting.  The BMW 800 st might be what you're looking for.  Pricing might be a bit higher than you wanted to pay.

Excited about your V restoration plans.  Good to hear that you're not leaving the fold.  Cheers.

[jasonm.]

the Suzuki is a SPORT bike and such will not be a comfortable long hauler UNLESS you change the bars w/risers and get SV650 peg assys. that lower your feet...thus more leg room. I got a good test ride on one and I truly know from some rider in my area. Also it's an easy engine to work on. Cams have gears up high driving them. Sort of the opposite of the Vision that has the gears dowm low. Gears up high makes valve checks and shim swaps simpler with the gears having timing marks. 

[fret not]

My current runner is a Suzuki SV650 (not the S model) but is still rather sporty riding position.  I got to ride a Suzuki V-Strom 650 and what a world of difference in comfort.  More suspension travel, smoother clutch engagement, better riding position, and basically the same motor.  If you need more power try the V-
Strom 1000.  Go ride these before you spend any money.  They can be a bit tall for some but lowering links for the rear suspension are available.

Our illustrious ex road racer, John Clemens, has both the 1000 and 650, so you might ask him what he thinks about them. ;)