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Going Racing

Started by The Prophet of Doom, October 15, 2011, 04:39:21 AM

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Rikugun

#60
That does sound interesting - please do post some pics.  :)

edit: Actually, I'd be curious to see your setup too Lucky.
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is then to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.  Carl Sagan

Raj1988

Quote from: Lucky on March 10, 2012, 02:27:23 PM
Quote from: Extent on March 10, 2012, 04:55:00 AM
You don't even need the aluminum bits, you can actually save a nice bit of weight by ditching them entirely and just bending up some hardware store flatstock.  A hammer, a vice, and a buzzbox is all you need, I have Gixxer pegs on my bike, and they're high enough that I wonder if I might have too much ground clearance on them.  Hooking up the brake linkage is a little trickier, but doable.  Mine is really weak, but it gives me stoplight standing power which is all I really need it for.

Pics por favor?

I second that.. would love to see some pics
Rock and Roll Ain't Noise Pollution

Extent

I don't have any recent ones, but I found some of the ones I took in 06.

Here you can see a bit of the brake linkage


Shifter side is plug and play



I can try and get better pics of the mounting points if you want them, but there really isn't much special about them.
Rider1>No wonder, the Daytona has very sharp steering and aggressive geometry.  It's a very difficult bike for a new rider.
Rider2>Well it has different geometry now.

The Prophet of Doom

#63
I tried fitting the TZR clipons today.  My initial plan was to chop the risers and place them under the upper triple tree.  Two problems with that.  The first was the mounting for the ignition switch was in the way.  Well I don't need no stinking ignition switch, so buzzed the mount off with my hacksaw.  The second problem was that the switchgear hits the tank on full lock, and to make them clear they need to be straight out either side.  Very uncomfortable.  
Change to plan B - I remember reading that Treedragon mounted his clipons above the triple by lowering the bike down 36mm onto the fork inners, so did the same.  This is them - no paint yet - that will be done in the weekend once I'm happy with all the positions.  

Rikugun

I experimented with some radical bars on my race bike that had the same bar/tank interference. I extended the steering stops with temporarily tack-welded extensions to limit the turn radius. You don't need much handlebar movement once underway but I admit it was a PITA moving the thing around the garage, paddock, etc.

Not a perfect solution but I mention it only as I hate to see you lose any ground clearance. I'm sure you read Treedragon was draggin' his header pipes with regularity after that mod. Hitting immovable stuff while pitched over in a turn tends to unload the tires and exponentially increase the odds of a DNF or worse!  :o

They do look good and keep the updates coming!
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is then to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.  Carl Sagan

Rick G

#65
Nobody will agree with me, but counter steering is a bunch of bunk!!  I've had people try to explain it to me and I have tried to observe it when I ride . Makes no sense at all! It popped up in the 90's in some motor cycle mag . Maybe I've been doing it all along . But i don't see it.
Rick G
Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there in lurks the skid demon
'82.5 Yamaha XZ550 RJ  Vision,
'90 Suzuki VX800, 1990 Suzuki DR350.
'74  XL350   Honda , 77 XL350 Honda, 78 XL350 Honda, '82 XT 200 Yamaha, '67 Yamaha YG1TK, 80cc trail bike

QBS

You're right Rick.  You've been doing it all along and just didn't realize it.

Re-Vision

When my oldest son started to ride on the streets a a bit, he came back one day telling me how he almost got creamed going up a curving hill while meeting traffic. He asked me why I hadn't told him that you had to steer opposite of the way you wanted to go. That had never crossed my mind because the boy had been riding a dirt bike on my property for quite some time. I learned this on a bicycle from my childhood days. If you've ever ran a floor buffer you know that raising or lowering the handle will move the buffer right or left and the faster the buffer speed the more pronounced  the direction change. Same for a bike, counter steering with input from the handlebars or weight shifting is always going on but is not very noticeable at low speeds. If it didn't occur I think you would fall over when the bike is in a leaning turn.     BDC

Extent

Quote from: Rick G on March 13, 2012, 09:47:54 PMMaybe I've been doing it all along . But i don't see it.

^^This

Here's a bike that Kieth Code made to demonstrate that weight shift won't cause a bike to turn in.
http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4snkUUolJ0&t=3s
Pause the video at 3s in and look particularly at Lorenzo and Dovizioso, it's most apparent on their machines IMO.  Lorenzo is in the middle of his turn in, his bike center is aiming to the left of camera, and his front wheel is pointing straight at it.  Dovi is just starting his turn in and you can clearly see the inside edge of his wheel opening up to camera (turning away from his path of travel).
Rider1>No wonder, the Daytona has very sharp steering and aggressive geometry.  It's a very difficult bike for a new rider.
Rider2>Well it has different geometry now.

Brian Moffet

#69
Quote from: Rick G on March 13, 2012, 09:47:54 PM
Nobody will agree with m, but counter steering is a bunch of bunk!!  I've had people try to explain it to me and I have tried to observe it when I ride .

I can see if I can find my Physics Thesis that talked about how it worked if you want...  Yes, it exists. Yes, it works.  Yes, it's the best way of turning a motorcycle.  Yes, I did the math to figure it out....

Maybe it will help if you think about it as only being used in the transition into the turn (say from upright to lean, or from lean to upright) but not in the turn itself...

fret not

Counter steering puts your front wheel to the outside of the turn, causing gravity to make you fall to the inside, until you let the wheels line up again to smoothly execute the turn.  If you keep counter steering you will keep falling.
Retired, on the downhill slide. . . . . . . . still feels like going uphill!

Rick G

#71
I ride using a lot of body english  in turns. This does nothing to steer the bike , but does allow me not to have to lean the bike as far in a given turn and still maintain the best possable tyre grip.
I learned this from watching films and photos of Mike Hailwood , Phil Read and Mike (Michelle) Duff, The hero's of my youth.

The inside foot is pointed off the peg at a 45 degree angle and aimed down at about 30 degrees . This allows the rider to detect where the road is , before grounding anything on the bike. The left buttock is on the right side of the seat, to move as much weight as possable to the inside of a turn

Steering  is done with the bars( natch) . The part I cannot detect is  that the statement that I am pushing on the right bar in a right turn. I  am pushing on the left side in a right turn and pulling back on the right side of the bars. I have payed attention ,trying to observe the "counter steering ".
As far as Bicycles go, you turn the bars to the side that is falling. Same thing with a motorcycle.
Rick G
Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there in lurks the skid demon
'82.5 Yamaha XZ550 RJ  Vision,
'90 Suzuki VX800, 1990 Suzuki DR350.
'74  XL350   Honda , 77 XL350 Honda, 78 XL350 Honda, '82 XT 200 Yamaha, '67 Yamaha YG1TK, 80cc trail bike

fret not

Usually the steering input is so slight we probably don't notice it, and we do the counter steering automatically, just like on a bicycle.  We can get away with all sorts of shennanigans at moderate speeds and not really endanger ourselves or others, but at the higher speeds where we close in on the limits of traction and common sense things get serious.  The road gets really narrow and room for misjudgement (fudge factor) all but disappears.  Hopefully we react automatically and go through the turns smoothly without having to think about the mechanics of what is happening.  However, if the bike shakes it's head, wobbles, etc. we need to analyze what we are doing wrong. 

The narrower tires of days gone by (like on the XZ) handled differently than the wide tires of today's modern machines.  The narrower tires kept the contact patch much closer to the center of gravity of the machine, as opposed to the wide wheels that can have a contact patch inches to the inside of the center of gravity when leaning.  The narrower tires allow quicker handling as is the reputation of the Vision. All this doesn't mean much if you don't get near the limits of traction or good sense. ;)
Retired, on the downhill slide. . . . . . . . still feels like going uphill!

Rick G

My VX , being a generation newer than the Vision, has somewhat wider wheels and tyres . That, coupled with the 5.5 longer wheel base and cruiser fork angle make  it a ( by Vision standards) a slow handler. Above 80 mph in large radius sweepers the VX is steadier. Over all the Vision is a superior performer.
Rick G
Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there in lurks the skid demon
'82.5 Yamaha XZ550 RJ  Vision,
'90 Suzuki VX800, 1990 Suzuki DR350.
'74  XL350   Honda , 77 XL350 Honda, 78 XL350 Honda, '82 XT 200 Yamaha, '67 Yamaha YG1TK, 80cc trail bike

treedragon

Yes I do grind the pipes but that is more of a "can't be bothered to move my ass" sort of thing, (I specialize in it), I grind a standard setup just as well if I trust the tires. Bumps don't help either but that shouldn't be a problem on the race track.

When instructing a new rider I generally get them to move along at a moderate clip and gently push the bars one side or the other, (dependent on the corner and with prior warnings of course). The bike will always lean the exact amount of input, it can be a saver in a sudden tightening corner..................  :o  :o  :o  :o and we live in a land of delicious corners down here so it tends to be relevant  ;D  ;D

Many have said that it is their weight movement but a close observation generally shows the outside arm actually gets pulled back.

Another point of laziness for me is that I like close in short bars rather than wide because they require less leverage for the required lean.



There is always a way

AdvRich

Hey Rick,
When I read
Quote from: Rick G on March 15, 2012, 12:38:48 AMI  am pushing on the left side in a right turn and pulling back on the right side of the bars.
and translate that to my experience of being heeled over in a right turn, that left bar push action for me, is when I am trying to upright the bike, widen the arc/line, or slow a bit of too quick rear tire drift.

I don't lean way off or as you say,
Quote from: Rick G on March 15, 2012, 12:38:48 AMI ride using a lot of body english  in turns.
which makes me think that your potentially countering your over leaned body weight levered out off the side of the bike when you push back on the left bar in a right turn. We each have our own riding style, I wonder if you were to come in board a bit on the body lean that you would find more balance in the equation with less counter effort being put into the upside bar. This would create a more neutral feel on the bar for more subtle feedback and conserve energy as well.

I can also, say, that man thinking this through and feeling the turns and interaction as I sort it out gets me excited to get over this cold and sore throat, fix the fried regulator that should arrive on Friday, and get out carving turns on the TDM this week.

Just some thoughts to add to the mix,
Rich 






AdvRich

#76
Nice Vid there Extent. I like the part starting about .48 through the end where the rear starts to loosen up and he lightens the counter steer to hook it back up.

Rikugun

Nah, He's just steering with the throttle. All the kids are doing it now....  at least the ones with slicks, lots of HP and talent   :D
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is then to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.  Carl Sagan

Rick G

#78
I can control corner speed by the amount of weight I move to the inside of the turn. If I I find I have too much speed I move more weight to inside . If conditions warrent slowing down I move weight closer to the centre line of the bike . Throttle stays mostly the same.
I started doing the even more when my front brake became mostly unusable, due to a set of warped disc's . I found I was over cooking the turns and as the brake was dangerous , I resorted to increasing the amount of weight  to the inside , so that I did not have to brake, but maintained the same speed.
Rick G
Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there in lurks the skid demon
'82.5 Yamaha XZ550 RJ  Vision,
'90 Suzuki VX800, 1990 Suzuki DR350.
'74  XL350   Honda , 77 XL350 Honda, 78 XL350 Honda, '82 XT 200 Yamaha, '67 Yamaha YG1TK, 80cc trail bike

supervision

  Search for this vid, jake holden rider clinic musselman,  4:45 min vid of some pretty cool rider technic
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