Charging system conversations with Electrex

[Rick G]

Mine WAS running as a 2 Phase system for about 400 miles over a 3 week period . it was keeping the battery up fine , untill the rest failed.

[scootertramp]

I have a thermometer and have stuck it in the oil hole after a ride and seen 180 degree oil temperature. I assume normal oil temps are from 180-200 degrees. I know that the magnet wire in a stator is rated for temps well above this, like 392 degrees F. The magnet wire I bought is rated for 392, yet the stator that I rewound with a 100W halogen lamp in the headlight failed after 400 miles.

That stator is acting like heating elements for some reason, but since the oil temp is around 200 degrees, this will break down the enamel in a shorter time period. I am still thinking the problem is heat sinking all this current in the right way. My theory is that the stator puts out too much current for this bike and when the battery charged fully, the stator is stuck dissipating all this heat, and cannot. Thus failure.

I could make a stator with less windings, like 14 per pole, then the output would be less. ? ???

how much less would the output be?
what about more coatings of epoxy for better insulation? or making sure the wires are as conductive as can be? meaning replace 'em?
I
what is the out put of the HONDA G7  unit compared to the yamaha unit? there may be a clue.

[RussD]

Heeey Scoot.......I thought you were dead.....or at least stuck to your guns & sold your bike. I haven't seen you on here for a couple months now.....Where ya been? I'm assuming you still got your bike since you're on here, or did you get rid of it?

[Rick G]

Kenny, I have been using  synthic blend  for about a year, it sure shifts better!!

[scootertramp]

Heeey Scoot.......I thought you were dead.....or at least stuck to your guns & sold your bike. I haven't seen you on here for a couple months now.....Where ya been? I'm assuming you still got your bike since you're on here, or did you get rid of it?

I still got the bike. I wish to do about four fixes as I repair the charging system. I wish to do the starterclutch bolt fix and the starter lipped seal fix and go ahead and refurbish me starter as long as I've got it apart. then go ahead and redo the front fork seals and new brake pads and new oil there.I just ain't got any duckies now to do it.
so it's sitting in my LIVING ROOM. still together.
OY!
it'll run just wont charge.  

[Walt_M.]

Let me see if I can explain the stator. It is a 3 phase generator. Generator output is rated in Voltamps or Watts. Just multiply volts times amps. If the generator is rated at say 500 watts, it will put out 5 amps at 100 volts. It will also put out (theoretically) 100 amps at 5 volts. The real value is probably less due to the conductor size, a 14 gauge wire will not carry 100 amps without melting. I haven't looked at our charging system rating but it is probably less than 30 amps so our 3 phase stator will put out about 10 amps per phase at full output. I have heard voltage readings around 100 if all is well but I doubt is that is at 30 amps. What I'm trying to say is that, yes, the stator is at full output virtually all the time but that output is managed by the R/R. As long as the R/R is ok, the stator is ok. I could go on but probably most of you are asleep by now.

[Lucky]

the stator is at full output virtually all the time but that output is managed by the R/R. As long as the R/R is ok, the stator is ok. I could go on but probably most of you are asleep by now.

Ok, so this is where I need more info..'as long as the R/R is ok, the stator is ok'  Lets say a diode goes bad in the R/R, How does that affect the stator?  

I tend to think of electricity in tearms of water flowing, it helps me understand it better, so with that senario, thestator is the lake, the wire harness is the river, the R/R is the dam with hydroelectric turbines, and the battery is the "storage lake"

in my simplistic way of thinking here, the R/R is 'downstream' of the stator, so I don't see how the R/R affects it.
what happens if a stator is left to output, without being plugged into the R/R?  similarly, the melted plug problem is saying the same thing correct? the corrosion in the plug causes it to be "unpluged" (I haven't found any that the connectors melted to the piont that the wires were touching) so why would this cause the insulation to burn & short the stator?  I tend to lean more towards the theroy that the r/r with the bad diode is shorting out the stator.  Hmmm, have I answered my own question?

[wolfman]

While I don't claim to be an electrical engineer, I have dealt with automotive electrical systems for years both professionally and personally. ?The stator puts out an AC current which travels to the R/R and gets "converted" to DC. ?AC (alternating) current travels in TWO directions, DC (direct) current in only one. ?If a diode fails (notice I did not say burns out) in the R/R, it can allow AC current to flow on a DC circuit (kinda like plumbing backing up) this causes the stator to overheat (a reaction to the back up) and eventually fail. ?This will generally happen in "sections" of the stator in a sort of domino effect. ?It will get "a little worse" (less output) and then a "little more worse" ?and then start to "speed up" getting gradually worse faster and faster until the stator completely fails. ?At least that what I think happens! Most automotive alternators have built in thermal protection for their stators, so if an internal R/R fails, the stators are preserved rather than destroyed as their output gets shut down. ?The reason why most automotive alternator "rebuilders" can get away with just bearings/brushes and R/R replacement. (And a pretty new paint job) I think this is aggravated in Vision electrical systems in that the output of the stator is on FULL all the time, with excess power getting shunted around rather than the out put reduced.  If there is a way to put an external voltage regulator into the system somewhere,  to increase/decrease the output in responce to demand, it might be the pancea we are looking for.

[Walt_M.]

In automotive systems, the magnetic strength of the field magnet (which is an electromagnet) is varied by the voltage regulator. In the Vision, it is a fixed magnet, thus the full output all the time. The R/R in the Vision will keep a constant burden on the stator. If the R/R shorts out, the current will go high and overheat the stator (think of an out of control toaster). If the R/R open circuits, the stator voltage will go high and burn through the insulation, causing an electrical short and high current. Does that help? ?

[Lucky]

""If the R/R shorts out, the current will go high and overheat the stator (think of an out of control toaster). If the R/R open circuits, the stator voltage will go high and burn through the insulation, causing an electrical short and high current. Does that help?""

I note that Electrex's own chart says to disconnect the R/R, run the bike at 5K and check AC output, If I understand you correctly then, that would be like having the diodes all in an open state. ?interesting that the chart says nothing about not prolonging this test, or that it could cause dammage
-so-
for the moment, taking heat out of the equation, a bad R/R can indeed burn out a stator, because a stator grounded (obviously) ?or open will indeed self destruct. this is what I'm gathering from what your saying. correct me if i'm getting it wrong.
-so-
A well constructed (heavy duty) R/R, at least better than the stock unit, would, of neccesity be required to have higher tolerances & specifications...
-ergo-
We need a better R/R (BTW, I have seen an Electrex R/R MELT. the entire back was overheated & melting out)

and, to deal with whatever heat related stresses are located inside the case, on the stator, we need either a more heat tolerant stator, increased oil cooling, (as Rick has suggested) or both.

so we're back to why i've been such a cranky S.O.B. lately, ?if Ritzo has had the idea that heat is our main culpret, then he's not going to be prone to do any R & D on any heavy duty parts. ?Now I don't know this for a fact, I've been giving him the few days he asked for to catch up on things, I figured I'd contact him on Monday, but in the meantime (Rick, if your out there) I haven't been able to get ahold of Rick to find out how far his conversation went...

[wolfman]

More crazy suggestions. ?Since the permanant magnet pretty much eliminates the possiblity of "turning down" the output of the stator, perhaps another solution would be to find a way to use all that excess power rather than have it shunted to ground by the R/R. Perhaps a huge stereo (LOL) or more practically, enough extra lights, higher watt bulbs? or perhaps a fan for the R/R to cool it and use up extra power at the same time, or even a second battery to charge somewhere.  The key seems to be to reduce the heat on the stator, cooling it down physically sounds way harder than preventing it from overheating to begin with IMHO.

[Rick G]

I'm here, we've just been on at different times . I 've selling stuff on eBay  and not paying attention to Yahoo as much.

[George R. Young]

FYI, I am an electrical engineer.

The regulator/rectifier on the Vision does not impact the output of the stator. The stator puts out about 20 amps ALL the time into a nominal 12 volt sink, the battery.

Some is used to run the lights and ignition. Some charges the battery. Some is used to heat up the regulator.

Let me see if I can explain the stator. It is a 3 phase generator. Generator output is rated in Voltamps or Watts. Just multiply volts times amps. If the generator is rated at say 500 watts, it will put out 5 amps at 100 volts. It will also put out (theoretically) 100 amps at 5 volts. The real value is probably less due to the conductor size, a 14 gauge wire will not carry 100 amps without melting. I haven't looked at our charging system rating but it is probably less than 30 amps so our 3 phase stator will put out about 10 amps per phase at full output. I have heard voltage readings around 100 if all is well but I doubt is that is at 30 amps. What I'm trying to say is that, yes, the stator is at full output virtually all the time but that output is managed by the R/R. As long as the R/R is ok, the stator is ok. I could go on but probably most of you are asleep by now.

[Dave T.]

FYI, I am an electrical engineer.

The regulator/rectifier on the Vision does not impact the output of the stator. The stator puts out about 20 amps ALL the time into a nominal 12 volt sink, the battery.

Some is used to run the lights and ignition. Some charges the battery. Some is used to heat up the regulator.

What do you do at work as an electrical engineer?
Any suggestions on how to make the stator last longer?

[QBS]

George; Thank you for your input.  Your explanation is as how I have come to understand the V's charging system to function.  Please explane, I your professional opinion, what would happen to the stator if it was operated with no load on it, as if the bike was run with its stator disconnected.  Cheers.

[Rick G]

Lucky running a stator , open circuit  wont hurt it,   IF Rpm is limited to 4/5 thousand  AND  the duration of the test only lasts a very short time 2 /3 min.  MAX  The shorter time the better.

[Lucky]

So running the stator open for a short time won't hurt it, but if there is an open in the system, like a bad diode, then your running it like that for a long period of time, probably without knowing it..

[RussD]

Perhaps this is a simplistic question.......but is there any way to convert to a moving magnet, rather than a fixed one which everyone seems to agree is the main culprit by causing too much juice? In other words, could Electrex come up with some kind of modified stator or some type of conversion kit?

[Walt_M.]

I have to explain things to electrical engineers fairly regularly, you do not put 20 amps into a 14 amp/hr battery, at least not for very long. For Russd, the term 'fixed magnet' does not mean that it is not moving but that it has a field strength that does not change. As for running the stator 'open circuit' without damage, yes, the insulation of the wiring can probably take it for a while. However, if a diode in the rectifier opens, it may be a long time before it is discovered and that might be when you join the flaming stator club. Keep your R/Rs cool.

[George R. Young]

The alternator puts out a roughly constant 20 amps, 5 to the headlight, 5 to the ignition, 2 to the taillight, 6 to warm the regulator, and 2 to charge the battery.

Open stators are happy. I'm guessing, but the Vision might put out 50 Volts AC at 3000 RPM, 100 VAC at 6000, etc. Charging current output is roughly constant because as voltage goes up with RPM, so does the impedance of the stator as frequency (RPM) increases.

Because the open circuit voltages are so high compared to 12 volts, short circuit current is not much higher than normal output.

So it really doesn't matter what you do externally, it won't make it live longer or shorter. I tried increased cooling with oil spray, running without headlight and one winding open, and replacing stock with aftermarket. The stator kept failing every 5 years/25000 km.

I think there is a fundamental problem with the design. It's internal and therefore poorly cooled, and it's permanent magnet driven, so it generates full output all the time.

Maybe space-age teflon-coated windings?

I have to explain things to electrical engineers fairly regularly, you do not put 20 amps into a 14 amp/hr battery, at least not for very long. For Russd, the term 'fixed magnet' does not mean that it is not moving but that it has a field strength that does not change. As for running the stator 'open circuit' without damage, yes, the insulation of the wiring can probably take it for a while. However, if a diode in the rectifier opens, it may be a long time before it is discovered and that might be when you join the flaming stator club. Keep your R/Rs cool.