Starter sounds "stripped" - whines but sometimes doesn't engage / rotate the eng

[Rikugun]

Good tips, given there diminutive size that's what I would have suspected.

Sometimes being an observant Toshiba technician trumps being a "real" mechanic!  :D

[Lucky]

i missed that one, but in my defense, i haven't needed to pull one apart in a long time (knock wood)

[Protonus]

Ok, got my starter clutch out this weekend, took some pictures of my issues, thought it might help someone in the future with these issues.  Also I have a few questions that will be in my next post, based on these images and info etc.

My first note is that I did NOT need to use a BFH on the flywheel puller on either bike. My impact alone was able to pop it off as it spun the center bolt.  As both bikes have had their flywheels removed before (as info shows below) this may be why.  But using the impact on the puller provided a nice clean "break" and no parts went flying.  HTH.

When I got my flywheel off, the first thing I noticed about the starter clutch, is that the metal outer "shield" of the clutch, seemed to be rotated in respect to the brass(?) clutch body.  Not good I thought:



The next thing I thought was it was weird that only 2 of the 3 spring/brushes fell out, though all 3 rollers fell out.  Well, looking at the clutch even before I removed it, I spotted why, one of the springs/brushes is stuck in the housing.  Here is a shot of the stuck one:



I removed the starter clutch from the flywheel.  I noticed that one of the 3 springs was also a bit bent.  Then I saw that the brass(?) clutch body itself, was cracked, as I feared.  :-(  However, I also noticed that someone had done the "preventative fix" on this clutch already!  All 3 of the screws were already peened/punched 3 times, and they were obviously longer screws that had been cut down!  I had to drive 'em out with the impact. 

I figured what happened, is that the PO, probably had clutch issues and did the preventive fix.  However, he either didn't notice, or didn't care, that the clutch body had already cracked.  He put it back together and, "problem solved".  However, I think the cracked body allowed it to twist a bit - causing the outer metal shield to rotate a bit like the first pic showed, AND allowed that one spring/brush to "bind" in the body and no longer release.  I believe that stuck spring/brush is what my problem was that I first posted about - but that the cracked body is the overall issue here...  Here is a pic of the cracked body and the bent spring.  I never could get the stuck brush/spring out of the body, it's jammed real good.  Didn't try too hard...  The crack was NOT over / near the stuck brush/spring, but opposite it.



Here is a shot of the flywheel with the clutch removed. It has some pretty heavy wear on it from the rollers.  Also, the threads were a little chewed up from me removing the clutch screws with an impact, since they were peened over.



I feared I was going to have a cracked clutch body given how bad my starting issues were and the noises it was making (and how many times I started it after I had this issue...) but... fortunately, I have a spare Vision!  Having a spare parts bike for working on a bike of this vintage is really almost a necessity IMHO, it's saved me a few times already, and paid for itself a few times over!  So I got to tearing apart the spare parts bike.

So I got the flywheel off the spare parts bike and... Whatda'ya know, someone has already done the preventive fix on this bike too!  This time, it looks like they used bolts of stock length and didn't cut em, and just put one serious punch into each bolt.  I started to get worried that I might have another cracked body... Here is the flywheel showing the punched bolts:



I again drove 'em out with my impact.  And I was very plesantly surprised! This clutch body was in mint shape!  No cracks, all the brushes/springs and rollers looked to be in MINT shape - they were much less worn and scratched up then the one off my bike.  There were also less marks/scratches on the clutch body, and on the flywheel too!  Phew!  Saved by the spare parts bike again!  Here is the much better shape clutch body:



And the flywheel, which also shows less wear:

[Protonus]

So, some questions, based on the pics/info above:

1.) Is the flywheel on a vision, balanced independently of the crankshaft/rotating assembly, or are they balanced together?

2.) I'm asking that #1 question, because the flywheel off my spare parts bike shows less damage then my original one.  The threads for the clutch are in better shape too.  Should I use my "spare" flywheel, or just clean up my "stock" one and re-use it?

3.) On my "stock" flywheel, unlike my "spare" one - the threads for the puller, are placed at the same radius as the clutch bolts.   Meaning I could bolt the clutch in, using the "puller" threads if I wanted.  Should I do this?  OR, should I just clean up the normal clutch threads, with a tap (since they got a little damaged by driving them out with an impact after they had been punched by the PO). 

4.) I'm concerned that using a tap on the "stock" threads as suggested in #3, might make the bolts for the clutch fit looser.  Should I just use a bolt to "clean" them up instead?  Some metal was removed (stringers or whatever you want to call them) as I drove out the screws.  The screws show some damage to the threads, so it might just be them, but I figure the threads in the flywheel need to be cleaned up either way, on either flywheel. 

5.) I find it odd that the two flywheels have their "puller" threads in different places.  On the "spare" flywheel, they are located farther out and spaced farther apart, than the clutch threads.  This also means that the rollers "slide" over the puller threads.  On my "stock" flywheel, the threads are closer together, and int he same radius as the clutch threads.  Which is more "normal" or "usual" for a Vision?  Are these thread locations sort of just random that ya'll have seen? 

Thanks in advance guys. 

[Lucky]

both sets of bolts are stock.  if they had used longer bolts they would have had the punches in the side, & that's not the right way to secure them anyway.

the factory did use punch marks to secure them, that didn't work as we all know...

the flywheels are interchangable, (independently balanced) & yes, some have different spacing on the clutch & removal bolt holes.  you can tap out the one with the same spacing on 3 holes to use larger puller bolts if you want. wouldn't try it on the clutch bolts as the heads of the larger bolts may not fit in the clutch body

the correct procedure for reattaching the clutch:

get 3 grade 10.2 allen bolts  longer than stock & 2 nuts of the correct size.  install the 2 nuts on one bolt so that the length of the bolt to the end of the 2nd nut is 3-4 threads longer than the originals.  take your dremil tool with the reinforced cut-off wheel (have a couple ready) and cut off the extra threads (chuck the bolt in a vice, it'll get hot)

next move the 2 nuts back towards the bolt head so that the end nut is now at the stock length. cut an "X" in the end of the bolt with the extra threads. (you might want to use the crappy non reinforced cut off wheels for this, they are thinner, just don't forget your eye protection)  remove the 2 locked nuts (thus cleaning up the threads) and when you install the bolts use locktite & spread the "X" with a chisel and hammer (don't snap off the threads)

--Lucky

[Protonus]

Lucky: Thanks for the info. I'm going to use my "spare" flywheel then, as it looked to be in better shape, and was "mated" already to the spare clutch body I'm going to be using.  I'm going to use a bolt of the right thread (instead of a tap) to "clean" the stock threads in the flywheel to make sure the thread geometry is right and there is no debris in the threads.  Then cut bolts as you described, install with red loctite and peen them over.   and hopefully never deal with this again! LOL! 

I'm also rebuilding my starter while I'm at it (and upgrading the seals) with the aforementioned kit, changing my shaft drive lube, upgrading to semi syn oil in the crankcase, doing a filter change, and installing magnetic drain plug in the crankcase (and a more powerful one in the shaft drive).  Then going for my first ride of the year hopefully!  It'll be like a whole new bike! Sorta!  Having it start consistently will be at least haha. 

[Lucky]

Two more things you should do while you have the left case off:
1) --tighten up both balance shaft gear drive & driven nuts & bend over all the lock tabs.
2) --replace the shift shaft seal

[Protonus]

Two more things you should do while you have the left case off:
1) --tighten up both balance shaft gear drive & driven nuts & bend over all the lock tabs.
2) --replace the shift shaft seal

I don't suppose that shift shaft seal is just an oring... I left my manual at work.  Already have my parts order made from last week, hate to have to make another. 

I noticed a few lock tabs on the engine under that side cover.  Any of the ones that aren't bent over, are intersecting a corner of the nut.  IE, they won't bend up nicely, they'll be ending over a corner.  Should I go ahead and try and bend 'em up even though they won't lie flat against a flat side/facet?

[Rick G]

By all means!

[Lucky]

you want to bend back the tabs & tighten the nuts first, then bend them all up.  those nuts are large.  someone correct me but they are something like 26 or 46mm...  i used .. i don't remember, maybe a punch and hammer to tighten them up.  if they loosen, it's another what-the-hell-is-THAT? sound.

the shift shaft seal is a seal not an o-ring, & again, i don't remember the size... but it's a common seal...

[Rick G]

On those I clean and apply locktite.

[fret not]

Protonus, your starter clutch failure is likely due to a broken spring under the little cap that won't come out of it's hole.  With one roller not making contact to equalize the stress on the starter clutch the stress is put through the other two, and that is a lot of force.  Sometimes those little springs get weaker and the clutch can chatter a bit, which is a sure sign to fix soon it before it breaks.  In the ten years I spent in a parts dept. I don't think I sold more than a dozen springs and caps, so they don't fail often but when they do you now know what to do.

[Protonus]

Lucky, I was looking at this guide here: http://www.xz550.com/chargenigntn.html
and have two questions on this step:

"--clean the sealer off the stator wires and then spray with brake cleaner.  coat the wires & grommets liberaly with yamabond, and both gasket surfaces, but DO NOT FILL the space between the gromets."

1.) I got a tube of some Yamabond at my local stealer, but it was Yamabond #4.  It was all they had.  Your guide mentions Yamabond #3.  Did I get the wrong stuff, is this an updated variant, or something else? 

2.) My bike had the stator replaced by the PO as well as the starter clutch "fix" done (though the body was cracked, per my thread you saw).  It looks like he smeared blue RTV over everything. I compared it to my spare parts bike, and the area you're talking about on my spare parts bike, ONLY has grommets, maybe a little yamabond.  On my bike I'm fixing, those "galleries" where the gaskets go, are almost entirely full of blue RTV.  I'd say the space between the gaskets is full.  You have a WARNING IN CAPITOLS (lol) about NOT doing this.  Should I remove all this RTV?  I'm curious WHY this is an issue? Can you explain your warning or what the problem is? 

Thanks so much in advance. I am putting the bike back together starting tonight, I appreciate your quick response. 

[Rick G]

We have has this discussion before . Most experience mechanics will not use RTV in any quantity. A thin film only. Excess will ooze out and when cured will break loose and can plug an oil gallery, destroying the engine ( my daughter had  a 4 cylinder ford pickup that had been treated this way.
On your vision use Yamabond 3 , silver coloured , not 4, black coloured use no more than necessary. there is another product called Three bond , same stuff , I uses it all the time.

[Protonus]

We have has this discussion before . Most experience mechanics will not use RTV in any quantity. A thin film only. Excess will ooze out and when cured will break loose and can plug an oil gallery, destroying the engine ( my daughter had  a 4 cylinder ford pickup that had been treated this way.
On your vision use Yamabond 3 , silver coloured , not 4, black coloured use no more than necessary. there is another product called Three bond , same stuff , I uses it all the time.

Dang.  I was going to use Gasket Prep on the rubber crankcase cover gasket to help "stick" it and condition the rubber, and then use that Yamabond 4 I bought on the wire grommets.  Instead, can I use permatex gray rtv (my go to sealent) on the wire grommets?  Or should I get Yamabond #3?  I don't know anyone local that has it...

[QBS]

On both engine cover gaskets all that is needed to help the gaskets to do their job is a moderate coating of wheel bearing grease on both sides of the gasket.  No Yamawhatever, no rtv, just grease.  Makes for very easy later disassembly AND gasket reuse.

[Rikugun]

I used Permatex Ultra Grey on the wires and grommet and had no problems. Everyone has there favorites. I've used many sealers over the years but that's what I had at the time and it worked YMMV.  :)

[Protonus]

Thanks for the info re: sealers guys! But...

Two more things you should do while you have the left case off:
1) --tighten up both balance shaft gear drive & driven nuts & bend over all the lock tabs.
2) --replace the shift shaft seal

I ordered the shift shaft seal. Went to replace it, manual says the shaft needs to be out. Looked to see what needs to be done to pull the shaft, it says the clutch had got to come out too! Which means right cover,etc, yikes! Is there a way to replace it without yanking the shaft? How often does this seal leak? Or at what mileage

[Rick G]

I've replaced the by digging them out, not willing to take the right side off to replace a shift shaft seal !!!

[Tiger]

...manual says the shaft needs to be out.

I've replaced the by digging them out, not willing to take the right side off to replace a shift shaft seal !!!

:) DITTO...No need to remove the shift shaft ;)

                  8) ....... TIGER ....... 8)