Synthetic Coolant Anyone?

[Rikugun]

I'm unclear if the Evan's product (100% glycol) actually conducts heat better than (or as good as) water/glycol coolants? Leno makes a statement about water's superiority in this regard and the marketing rep doesn't jump in to comment one way or the other. Or maybe I misunderstood his comment? No corrosion, lifetime service and a freaky high boiling point is great but if it conducts heat less efficiently it's of little help to my hot weather gripes. Or maybe I'm not "getting" it.  :-[ If it's still getting as hot (or hotter) to the point of vapor lock issues, even with no boil-over, I'm no better off and potentially worse. The 375 degree boiling point will be of little consolation since the engine will have quit running or grenaded long before then.  >:(

I emailed their tech department some questions including which one of their products is best for bikes as I've found some conflicting info. At first glance it would seem the "Powersports" formula. Later I found a warning to use their prep/flush when using the NPG formula in bikes.  And if the diesel formula is their "heavy duty" offering,  why not use it?

As far as not developing pressure through steam generation, I'm with you Jim and think that's a good thing. Since the product allready has a very healthy cushion relative to boiling point, pressurizing the system is not gonna happen and I can't see that it's necessary. If I had known gasket issues I'd address them as a matter of course and certainly before filling up with this expensive coolant.  :o  :D   I haven't seen any complaints of the product harming seals, gaskets, etc.

[The Prophet of Doom]

According to the Liquid Intelligence website...

The NANOPARTICLE Technology Means:
Heat Conductor Particles make the coolant more thermally efficient
Absorbs and dissipate heat faster by increased surface area
Dissipates more heat, using less coolant, in a shorter period of time.

Sounds like a winner for those desert riding conditions

[pinholenz]

Agreed, the advantage of the higher boiling point product is that all of it stays in contact with the heat dissipating surfaces, longer. I have always been alarmed by the fact that the temperature guage can sit quite happily at around half way and take quite a bit of work to get there but it suddenly shoots up heading for the red zone with only a little bit more effort.

The cause is those tiny air bubbles that form on the element of your electric jug long before it boils. Same inside our blocks. Localised air bubbles form on the heat dissipating surfaces, the surface area of the coolant in contact with the block decreases and then the engine temperature increases rapidly.

What the wetting agent does is it reduces the surface tension of the air bubbles on the metal surface so they  are released off the metal surfaces into the coolant to be replaced by fresh coolant on the metal helping to keep the engine cooler.

Stripping away the marketing jargon, what the high BP synthetic waterless coolant  does is prevent air bubbles  forming in the first place, so the temperature doesn't rapidly head to the red zone from "normal" with just a little extra engine work, or idling at lights in town.

I am a bit dubious about the expensive Evans preparation kit. Provided the radiator and coolant is clean to start with, I'd be inclined to blow the system out with an airline, flush it  with methylated spirits to get rid of any water, and blow it dry again with an airline.

Apparently waterless coolants is standard issue in the Australian motocross team because of the desert conditions in that country and the risk of dust clogging up their radiator fins.

[Rikugun]

The Liquid Intelligence site does seem flush with marketing buzzwords which puts me off a bit as does the reluctance to show cost. Also I didn't see if it claims to be a lifetime product like the Evans product. They seem to share an approximate 375F boiling point, I wonder how similar they are. Has anyone seen a US distributor for it?

[pinholenz]

Liquid Intelligence 115 is a lifetime product like Evans. I suspect that they are effectively identical. 115 comes in better sizes for our needs, and $/litre is slightly cheaper. However it doesn't look as if there is a US distributor at this time but that there may have been an attempt to arrange a distributor in the past.  Its worth dropping them a line to see what the state of play is.

[The Prophet of Doom]

Or just ring them up and order.  They ship internationally. 

[Rikugun]

Or just ring them up and order.  They ship internationally.

Oh I bet they do, just wonder how much co$t that adds.  ???  :)

Another thing I wonder about is the notion of eliminating the expansion tank. I understand it is waterless and therefore doesn't expand due to boiling. But won't there still be some expansion from the fluid being heated? Has either product advocated removing expansion tanks or has this been an assumption? Or is the idea to run with the radiator not full and allow for expansion that way?

And in the interest of maintaining a critical mindset,  :D these comments from the LI site under Action 1:
- Advanced Aluminium & Magnesium Corrosion Protection
- Will not damage copper, solder, brass, mild steel or cast iron

and then under the dirt bike section:
"Liquid Intelligence 115 Dirt Bike Coolant contains an aluminium & magnesium corrosion protection additive far more advanced than any water / glycol traditional bike coolant can provide."

What I get from this is aluminum still doesn't get a free pass. Elsewhere the corrosion inhibitors are characterized as having a long life - not lasting forever. Maybe the LI site is being a little more forthright with their claims?  :)

[pinholenz]

Or just ring them up and order.  They ship internationally.

Oh I bet they do, just wonder how much co$t that adds.  ???  :)

Welcome to our world!!

Actually you may be surprised. Shipping from this end of the globe seems to be quite a bit cheaper than having anything equivalent shipped out of the States.

[The Prophet of Doom]

But won't there still be some expansion from the fluid being heated? Has either product advocated removing expansion tanks or has this been an assumption? Or is the idea to run with the radiator not full and allow for expansion that way?

Jay Lenno suggested it on an interview with the Evans guy.  Good point on the thermal expansion, there's no way of telling how much that would be without trying it.  I'm hoping that either the thermal expansion will be minimal, or the radiator hoses will expand enough so I don't blow out the head gasket.
[/quote]

What I get from this is aluminum still doesn't get a free pass. Elsewhere the corrosion inhibitors are characterized as having a long life - not lasting forever. Maybe the LI site is being a little more forthright with their claims?  :)

According to their site "Test Shows That Liquid Intelligence 115 Had Zero Corrosion On All Metals Found In An Automotive Cooling System".
http://liquidintelligence115.co.uk/media/Liquid-Intelligence-115-Test-Report.pdf

[pinholenz]

All good points. I'll drop Evans and LI115 a question about the expansion issue.

The modest 12psi caps on our radiators are there to allow our water temp to rise above 212F  (100C) at sea level without boiling, until it reaches 244F (118C). Changing the radiator cap to 16psi at sea level increases the boiling point of water to 252F (121C). These figures are modified by the use of Glycol antifreeze of course.

And for every 4000 ft (1219m) above sea level, the boiling point of cooling system drops by about 8F (4C) in any case. So for those riding across the Mojave desert (in stop-start traffic on a hot day) at 1500m, you are really going to struggle to stop your water-based coolant from boiling.

The waterless coolant with its higher BP is a no-brainer, with or without the expansion bottle.

Here is a comprehensive account of a guy in the UK using a mix of  Evans and LI115 products to cure his overheating problems in a Honda Accord.

http://accordownersclub.co.uk/2nd-1st-generation-accord/2751-liquid-intelligence-115-synthetic-waterless-engine-coolant.html

[pinholenz]

I've had this reply from Evans about the expansion properties of their coolant:
"our coolant will expand about 4-7% and it is advisable to have an expansion tank for that reason.
If this car is one that did not have an expansion tank and you want to keep it totally stock, then we advise not filling the radiator all the way. That way the expansion can take place within the radiator and not push it out on the ground.
Evans Technical Support
888-990-COOL "
It looks as if it has the same expansion properties as water. If I were to run a bike without an expansion tank with waterless coolant, I would drill a small hole in the radiator cap seal and underfill the system by using 1.9 litres of coolant instead of 2.0 litres. That way the system is "open" and if I am unfortunate to lay the bike over, then I would only lose a drop of coolant. With the higher boiling point of the waterless product, and the fact that it does not evaporate like water, then we no longer need a closed system.

[Rikugun]

According to their site "Test Shows That Liquid Intelligence 115 Had Zero Corrosion On All Metals Found In An Automotive Cooling System".
http://liquidintelligence115.co.uk/media/Liquid-Intelligence-115-Test-Report.pdf

Yes, I read that and it is contradicted by other statements they make as I quoted earlier. I'd like to know what comprises an "automotive cooling system". Is it cast iron block and heads and copper radiator or aluminum engine components and radiator as in the Vision. The devil is in the details.  :D

All good points. I'll drop Evans and LI115 a question about the expansion issue. From your recent post I see it is as I suspected

The waterless coolant with its higher BP is a no-brainer, with or without the expansion bottle. As far as the Evans product goes, it is a no brainer if your intent is to raise the boiling point as well as cylinder head temperature and coolant temperature  :o Wow, the Evans test results (link below) illustrates some significant issues.  :(

Here is a comprehensive account of a guy in the UK using a mix of  Evans and LI115 products to cure his overheating problems in a Honda Accord. For clarification, he used the Evans prep/flush and LI coolant. It's unclear to me if it runs any cooler but no longer boils over.

http://accordownersclub.co.uk/2nd-1st-generation-accord/2751-liquid-intelligence-115-synthetic-waterless-engine-coolant.html

Very interesting Accord article and specifically the link with critical test results of the Evans product.  http://www.norosion.com/evanstest.htmI'd have to say from what I read I would probably not use the Evans product in my Vision. I wished the article also included LI in the comparison. Being waterless I have to wonder if it is 100% glycol like Evans. Without a water component I have to assume that like Evans, LI does not transfer heat as well as water blends. If your goal is to lower coolant temps, I'd say something like Engine Ice may be a better choice.

[pinholenz]

I have just downloaded the MSDS Sheet for the Evans product (http://www.hrpworld.com/client_images/ecommerce/client_39/products/pdf_3415_3.pdf) and it is a glycol based product with a  2% proprietry inhibitor .

I am not sure I would trust a competitor (NoRosion) for objective research, but I do trust the many positive reports on lots of other forums. Perhaps we should hear from an Evans employee as well for the sake of balance: (www.powerstroke.org forum)

"To start out, I'll say up front that I work at Evans. Secondly, I don't want to sell anything to anyone; I want to clear some things up and answer questions.

There are many propylene glycol coolants: Prestone Low-Tox, Sierra, Engine Ice, etc. They all contain water. Any water based coolant performs essentially the same in terms of boiling point, cavitation, life span, and cavitation. These are all functions of the properties of water. Evans has patents on waterless coolants, and so if there are other waterless coolants on the market, we'd like to hear about it. (Liquid Intelligence 115...)

All glycol based coolants are combustible. The danger comes when glycol is sprayed onto a hot surface like an exhaust header. Typically, water based coolants present a greater danger because of the continued pressure that feeds the fire and makes it bigger. There are circumstances where real danger exists, but that danger exists for all glycol based coolants.

Evans started out with a pure propylene glycol coolant in the 1980's. It had the high boiling point and non-corrosive properties, but was too thick to flow well without modifying the cooling system. This coolant alerted the industry to propylene glycol and the other PG anti-freezes were born. Evans then learned about adding ethylene glycol to reduce the viscosity and now our current formulations can be used in stock systems. The original 100% PG coolant (NPG) is still available for niche markets like racing under an ethylene glycol ban, total protection for magnesium, and environmental/food applications.

I've used Evans in my race-motorcycles, cars, trucks, and farm equipment. I've installed it in class 8 diesels, airplanes, fork lifts, and other applications. I won't go on to tell you how good it is because you know my opinion. My outlook is that I'm happy to talk to interested people, but don't need to convince everyone. "

Rikugun, sounds like you have an overheating problem from what you are saying elsewhere. Maybe you should give this a go. The Liquid Intelligence version of these waterless coolant products has a 2 year money back guarantee. Sounds a tad better than snake oil to me. Make your choice, pay your money, get it all back if you are not happy. Easy Peasy. (But be sure to read the fine print detail)

[Rikugun]

I don't see that the employee and competitor statements are in disagreement. It's a matter of how much disclosure is given. I see exaggeration and lies of omission by both parties. They're both drunk but on their own brand of Kool-Aid.  ;D As far as anecdotal reports go, they're just that and I weigh them accordingly.  I read several accounts of how "it used to boil over and now it doesn't.  I'd much rather read "I measured my coolant temp at _ and now it's lowered to _"   If the claims of lower temps are true it should be easy to find many such claims.

The No-Corrosion (NC) tests did not include LI and 50/50 conventional coolants which is unfortunate. Perhaps NC considers Evans their real competition? Also, the tests involved cars with the appropriate automotive blend. If there are tests with bikes using the Powersports blend, I'd love to read them. Meanwhile, I'll glean what I can from what I've read thus far. I'm not saying the Evans product won't lower engine temps in a Vision, I'm simply saying I haven't seen sufficient evidence to inspire confidence that it will. Based on what I've read thus far, I'm not willing to be the test subject either.  ;D I'll post later with the things that got my attention with the NC tests. And my comments when it comes to "guarantees".  ;)

I'm not sure I'd characterize my Vision as having an overheating problem. For the most part, I've worked through those issues described earlier such that the bike can handle the temps typically seen here. I'm not convinced the bike would survive a high speed jaunt through death valley though.  :-\ From what I've read on this forum, I'm not alone. So, it is a problem with my Vision, or all Visions, or just some Visions? Was it like this when new or is there now accumulated scale hampering some but not all Visions? Much like carb cleaning, you can't see every nook and cranny but rather rely on results to confirm success. 

As it stands now I can still do more. For instance, I've changed the coolant but never flushed the engine or radiator and am also considering a white vinegar/water treatment. If that fails, I will stack 2 radiators one in front of the other or maybe end to end in a shallow "V" shape to scoop up lots of air.  8)  :laugh:

[pinholenz]

I'm no so sure that any of these companies claim that their product actually lets the engine run cooler at normal operating conditions. (Except EngineIce) That's not the point; by reducing cavitation at the metal surface (localised boiling) through the use of wetting agents and high BP glycols, they claim that  normal operating temperatures are maintained even under extreme conditions. I.e. the coolant remains more effective for longer and doesn't require changing. Water is the most efficient conducter of heat when in contact with a hot surface. But as temperature rises localised boiling makes it very inefficient. This is exacerbated by the removal of lead from our petrol which also helped maintain operating temperatures of older engines at their optimum.

What would be the effect of running colder spark plugs in the Vision. Would that help lower internal operating temperatures or would the engine simply become less efficient?

[QBS]

"hotter" or "colder" spark plugs do not effect the operating temp. of what they are installed in.  Rather, they effect the plugs' ability to function in engines that create varying amounts carbon, oil residue, combustion by products. 

[Rick G]

Well said Q, many riders think that if they install hotter plugs they will go faster!  In reality they stand a chance of damaging the engine   , even up to the point of holing the pistons!

[pinholenz]

"hotter" or "colder" spark plugs do not effect the operating temp. of what they are installed in.  Rather, they effect the plugs' ability to function in engines that create varying amounts carbon, oil residue, combustion by products.

Doh. I should have known that! In other words stick with the recommended plug temp.

For those interested, Liquid Intelligence have got back to me with their MSDS sheet for the LI115. From what I can see, the formulation looks quite different from the Evans product which is a blend of about 98% glycols. - But, the last chemistry I did was 40 years ago, so I am only guessing.

Hi John,
As requested...please find attached our MSDS document for Liquid Intelligence 115 Synthetic Waterless Coolant.
This document only shows the constituents that are of a hazardous nature as set out by terms of our legal MSDS obligations.
Non-hazardous and proprietary non-hazardous components are not shown on this MSDS certificate.

If you would like to have a chat about the formulation or the technical aspects of Liquid Intelligence 115...please give me a ring.
We are available from 7am to 7pm 7 days a week on 1800 441 163.

Regards
Peter Maher
Liquid Intelligence Pty Ltd
PO Box 353
14 Underwood Ave
Botany NSW 2019
Australia
M > 0423 593 261
P > 1800 441 163
P > (02) 9700 0880
F > (02) 9700 0881
E > peter@liquidintelligence.com.au
E > peter.maher@mainlube.com.au
W > www.liquidintelligence115.com.au
W > www.liquidintelligence.com.au
W> www.dieselbiocide.com.au
W> www.blownheadgasket.com.au

[Rikugun]

Pinholenz, it seems we agree the Evans products probably won't reduce coolant/engine/operating temps. Maybe the LI coolant too?  Based on info provided by Evans, it seems likely increased engine/coolant temps will result from use of their products. One reason seems to be their viscous coolants moves to the radiator and back again slower. This is why they offer increased volume water pumps for selected cars. It's also why the Powersports blend is made thinner to deal with smaller radiator and pumps found on motorcycles, sleds, etc. This sluggish movement combined with glycol's reduced heat transfer abilities may outstrip the claimed effects of reduced nucleate boiling.  On that note, at the cylinder head temps measured by No-Corrosion, a substantially vapor free condition of nucleate boiling did not exist.  Granted, this was with NPG in a small block V8 and not the thinner Powersports blend in a Vision. To that point, as the Ps blend is thinner, does it perform as good as the others?  Even assuming the NC tests as biased, ask yourself why Evans instructs owners of programmable ECU equipped cars to increase electric fan on/off thresholds.  One can imagine the dismay of car owners when the fan never shuts off.  :(

You don't seem to feel lower temps are the point but to me it's everything, at least with my Vision. I understand the mechanism at play and subsequent claims of increased efficiency but if temps are higher how efficient is it?  I've noticed a correlation with temp and running issues on my bike. This is typically on a very hot day after extended high speed running with the gage at >/= 3/4 scale. If waterless coolants raise the temp further I have no cushion left.  Additionally, the carbs and pulse pump are being broiled between two cylinders now running hotter than they ever have. I don't think they're gonna care how efficient the coolant may or may not be at the water jacket/coolant interface.  ;)

These waterless coolants may work better in some vehicles than others. Unless a Visionary has used it and found the engine operates at a lower temp given similar conditions with conventional coolants, I'm not terribly interested in experimenting. Boil-over and corrosion have not been the problem but rather temperature induced vapor lock. I haven't done any research on the LI product but feel the same. If anyone has or is using either product, please chime in. I'm very interested to learn your results.  :)

[QBS]

It may be for Vs' that the primary benefit is that there is virtually zero coolent operating pressure stress on the cooling system componets, which for Vs' doesn't appear to be an issue.