Copper exhaust crush rings

[Fuzzlewump]

 Anybody happen to know the size of these? I've looked around a bit and can't find proper specs for a new set. I'm talking about the rings that are rumored to be capable of fastening the y-pipe to the headers.

My exhaust fell off a couple days ago and I haven't seen a source for these rings yet. Is there some way around this ridiculous setup? Any tips/tricks/ideas for getting your exhaust to actually fasten to the engine?

[Re-Vision]

Copper ring.
Yamaha p/n 4BR-14613-00
3.25mm thick
O.D. 39.65mm
I.D. 29.75mm

BDC

[Re-Vision]

Four of these fit into exhaust ports.

Copper ring.
Yamaha p/n 4BR-14613-00
3.25mm thick
O.D. 39.65mm
I.D. 29.75mm

BDC

Two of these fit on wye pipe.
Yamaha p/n 11H-14714-01-00
3.80mm thick
O.D. 36.15mm
I.D. 54.00mm

Sorry I didn't pay more attention to your post.

BDC

[pullshocks]

Last time I checked, Speed and Sport actually has them.  Needless to say, the law of supply and demand applies here.

[Fuzzlewump]

thanks, gents!

[Rikugun]

My exhaust fell off a couple days ago and I haven't seen a source for these rings yet. Is there some way around this ridiculous setup? Any tips/tricks/ideas for getting your exhaust to actually fasten to the engine?

Fell off? Oh no!  ???  :) How exactly?  The Y pipe will be held fast if the copper rings are a snug fit around the 2 ends where they clamp. That connection is not sufficient however to hold the weight of the exhaust. That is accomplished through the rear mounts and the front pipe connections.

[Fuzzlewump]

Fell off? Oh no!  ???  :) How exactly?  The Y pipe will be held fast if the copper rings are a snug fit around the 2 ends where they clamp. That connection is not sufficient however to hold the weight of the exhaust. That is accomplished through the rear mounts and the front pipe connections.

Somehow the bolts holding the right rear mount came out, and the mount fell off the engine. I had the bolts on as tight as safely possible, so my only guess is that the loose y pipe rattled and vibrated them out. If it weren't for the bolt mounting the rear exhaust pipe to the footpeg plate, I'd have lost half my exhaust system going down the freeway!  :o

That damn copper ring setup has never tightened up enough to keep the y pipe attached for more than a day or two. I have large hands so the task of fitting it is difficult enough as it is. I'm thinking that maybe my copper rings are just super worn out, that's why I was asking for the actual ID and OD of stock rings so I could compare to what I've got. This attachment system is a very unfunny joke! I'm working on brainstorming a better method of attaching it.

With copper rings that are in good condition, how does the fit look on the end of the y pipe? Are they resting just on the end of the pipe or can they slide down over the pipe a bit?

How much is a Vision going for these days?   ;D

[Re-Vision]

If the copper rings are correct and tightened down, the only thing left that would cause this problem would be a missing gasket at the bottom of the wye pipe. http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-NOS-Yamaha-1L9-14714-01-00-Exhaust-Gasket-4-1976-83-XS-XJ-XT-XZ-1986-90-YX-/161060513923?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item257ff46883&vxp=mtr   

BDC

[Re-Vision]

You can see how far down wye pipe the copper ring should be, this is exactly how it came off the engine.     BDC

[The Prophet of Doom]

How do these work? Does the ID decrease and grab the Y pipe when squeezed by the ring and the flange ?

I've checked my usual suppliers and can't find washers anywhere near that sort of size.  What do you guys think of welding the rings to the Y pipe, then using gasket cement between that and the flange?

[Re-Vision]

There is a bevel on the engine fitting where the wye pipe enters as well another bevel on the collar (Both like valve seats), when the clamp is tightened it forces the two bevels closer together with the copper ring between them. The sealing is done on the sides and I.D. of the ring.    BDC

[Rikugun]

With copper rings that are in good condition, how does the fit look on the end of the y pipe? Are they resting just on the end of the pipe or can they slide down over the pipe a bit?

I asked that same question when I first assembled mine!  :) Getting them several mm beyond the chamfer is key. There is no mechanical connection when simply resting against the chamfer.

How do these work? Does the ID decrease and grab the Y pipe when squeezed by the ring and the flange ?

I don't think there is sufficient clamping force on those sheet metal band clamps to compress (even new) copper rings in that way. My guess is they should be a light interference fit to start with in order to keep exhaust gas from escaping at their ID. Just my 2 cents.  :)

What do you guys think of welding the rings to the Y pipe, then using gasket cement between that and the flange?

That idea may have some merit. I think I'd look for a gasket similar to what fits in the exhaust port in lieu of gasket cement though.  :)

[The Prophet of Doom]

There's no point in wondering about it too long.  The washers are unobtanium as far as I know, and they can't be uncrushed.  So a plan B is kind of mandatory if I'm to get this bike back on the road.

I took to the Y piece with my oxy / acetylene  torch.  The pipe is fairly thick, so easy welding (although not exactly stacked dimes) and no blow throughs.  An initial test shows a nice strong mechanical connection even with just the sheet metal clamp holding it.   No more falling off Y pieces!  I thought about an exhaust gasket of some sort rather than cement but don't think I'll get enough clamping action to seal well. 

First problem is that with the rings on it can't slip into place.  I'll have to rock the engine forward on the pivot.  I'll go do that after lunch and report back

[Fuzzlewump]

Thanks for the photo, BDC! That's what I needed to see...

There's no point in wondering about it too long.  The washers are unobtanium as far as I know, and they can't be uncrushed.  So a plan B is kind of mandatory if I'm to get this bike back on the road.

I took to the Y piece with my oxy / acetylene  torch.  The pipe is fairly thick, so easy welding (although not exactly stacked dimes) and no blow throughs.  An initial test shows a nice strong mechanical connection even with just the sheet metal clamp holding it.   No more falling off Y pieces!  I thought about an exhaust gasket of some sort rather than cement but don't think I'll get enough clamping action to seal well. 

First problem is that with the rings on it can't slip into place.  I'll have to rock the engine forward on the pivot.  I'll go do that after lunch and report back

I'm in the same boat, here. Speed and Sport does have NOS copper washers, but they want $28US per piece!  >:(  I can't cover that for a consumable item that doesn't appear to be a better fit than what I currently have. Also, even if I got this attachment to seal, I'd still be mucking around with it every time the washers need replacing.

I'm thinking of something similar to what you have here, Prophet, with a clamping/coupling attachment that is stronger and easier to affix than the stock bands.

I've found some exhaust gaskets at an auto supply store that look to be the right size for fitting between the "trumpet" of the header and the rings as placed on the Y pipe in your photo. They are made of a rubber composite, which would make them very consumable, but they are inexpensive and look a good fit. A strong clamping mechanism for joining the pipe to the header would make your current setup a perfect solution, I'd think.....so long as it's not too tricky to get the Y pipe in without moving the engine around. I'm anxious to see what you discover when you check out the wiggle room with those rings welded on.

[The Prophet of Doom]

$28ea is robbery   That's every time you pull your engine - and what do you do when they run out?.  No way I'd pay that if I can work around it.

I rocked the engine forward on the pivot.  Just half an inch so the shaft splines were still engaged.  It meant undoing the radiator (bolts, not hoses) as well but only 12 bolts - the whole engine forward and back thing only added half an hour or so to the exercise. 

I was a bit worried about the strength of those sheet metal clamps.  They were fussy to fit as they always are, but otherwise it all buttoned up with no fuss and no issues.  I've never seen the Y pipe this solid - you would think it was welded in place.

A slight alignment issue with the muffler, it was about 3mm out to the left, but I just used a little force .  If I did it again I'd draw alignment marks while still assembled so I'd know better where to weld.

I'm relaxed about not having a gasket.  The idea of the cement is it expands when heated, so should fill any remaining gaps, and there is a bevel so this will encourage the cement to stay in place even if it cracks.  I've used CRC Manifold cement as an exhaust assembly paste for years, even on top of other gaskets with great success.   Won't know for sure if it has sealed well till the carbs and electrics are back on and the engine brought up to temp.

[Rikugun]

POD - Nice job with the welds - the part looks very solid indeed.  :) What was the cause of the slight misalignment? Does this have to do with the flanges being just slightly askew when welded resulting in 3mm off at the muffler box end of the Y pipe? Is this a stock muffler box or aftermarket system the Y pipe fits into? I wonder if one is more or less forgiving than the other in that respect?  Apparently it fits so not a big deal anyway. Again, nice work and I'll look forward to a long term update on the gasket cement!  :)

[The Prophet of Doom]

I was pretty happy with the weld.  I only started this year with borrowed gear and watching youtube for instruction.  I'm on about a 20% success rate  at the moment.  The rest of the time I destroy what I'm working on and have to go out and buy new raw material.

It's an aftermarket muffler, but I don't think that's the cause.  Draw a triangle 200mm (the length of the Y pipe) x 3mm.  Now see how narrow that triangle is 10mm from the pointy end.  That's how close the measuring was. 

Stock pipes are certainly a lot more forgiving movement wise once it's bolted up.    Getting the muffler in place before the final tighten up at the flange end would have been wise in retrospect.  A fairly soft crush washer or even perhaps a thicker bead of cement would be good to allow a seal over a greater movement range.

[Rikugun]

Fuzzle, I remembered reading where some members had used #8 solid copper wire to fashion copper rings to seal the Y pipe. Obviously there will be a seam where the ends meet but apparently if care is taken the ends will meet when the clamping band forces the collar's chamfer and rings together. Below is a link to member Coil Coyle's post. Member treedragon may also have fashioned copper rings but I'm unsure of his particular manufacturing scheme.
http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=5423.msg46032#msg46032

[The Prophet of Doom]

Now that I've modified my Y pipe beyond returning to stock I think I've found a source for gaskets that look like they might do the job
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/an900.php

[Fuzzlewump]

Fuzzle, I remembered reading where some members had used #8 solid copper wire to fashion copper rings to seal the Y pipe. Obviously there will be a seam where the ends meet but apparently if care is taken the ends will meet when the clamping band forces the collar's chamfer and rings together. Below is a link to member Coil Coyle's post. Member treedragon may also have fashioned copper rings but I'm unsure of his particular manufacturing scheme.
http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=5423.msg46032#msg46032

I ran across treedragon's post about this somewhere and I may give it a shot before modifying anything...looks plausible. Anything is better than this crap now! Thanks for the link, Riku!

Prophet, please do give a report when you've tried out your setup on a running and moving bike. What you've done is the first thing I thought of trying out and I'm very interested to see how it holds up!