Building a carb kit for the 82 carb

[Re-Vision]

Do Y'all think it would it be feasible to put together a kit for both carbs using the best quality jets available and still be more reasonable in cost than the $89 Keyster kits for each carb? Would we need to acquire the same exact parts as the Keyster kits or could changes be made? My thinking was that a better kit could be assembled for a lot less if I wasn't interested in making a profit. Any suggestions on how to build a kit that I could offer to fellow Visionaries would be appreciated. I don't mind anyone making a profit but this appears to be excessive.    BDC

[Rikugun]

I've never tried to individually locate the necessary parts so can't comment on feasibility or price. If you were to try this, one suggestion would be to include throttle shaft seals. Has anyone found where to source the accel pump diaphragm?

[The Prophet of Doom]

Nice idea Bobby, I'd say you could easily come in under the keyster price (or similar price, but more thorough / higher quality) with a bit of work. And no-one would begrudge you making a reasonable profit to offset all the work.

Mikuni jets are available and not a huge price.  If you buy from wholesalers in even moderate quantities, that would halve your price

+1 on the throttle shaft seals (plus screws) I'd also include a full set of stainless socket head bolts, o-rings for the float valves, perhaps new brass screws and washers for the main jet covers - none of which would add much to the price, but make it a lot more convenient.

The biggest issue would be selecting the jets to include - (there is disagree about the correct value) and it will vary depending on whether they have vacuum flapper of a XZ400 - Perhaps give the purchaser some choices

[Walt_M.]

When they first came out 10-12 yrs ago the Keyster kits were less than $40. The first ones were listed as '82 but were actually for '83. They did a redo for '82s. The kits they have may be the ones they made originally. If so, they have probably been paying tax on unsold inventory ever since, hence the price increase.

[Re-Vision]

Rather than trying to duplicate the parts in the Keyster kits, I would like to get the opinion of all as to what needs to be replaced when overhauling the carbs. Also, does Keyster package more than one carb kit (mine are KY-0471).     BDC

Mod: Corrected part number

[pullshocks]

The keyster kit does not include the rubber booties for the enrichener plungers.  I believe these are a source of air leakage when they do not fit snugly.  Right now you can get the complete enrichener assembly; IIRC they go for $58 each.

[Re-Vision]

I'm beginning to think that we don't need a standard kit for the carbs. But rather a customized kit after it's disassembled when we can see what's bad.     BDC

[Rikugun]

Depending on the carb set there may be some parts that aren't used and some not there one might need - that's just the nature of carb kits. Even if you design your own it's not going to work for every situation.

At minimum, and this is just my opinion, all soft parts should be replaced on these 30+ year old carbs. This includes throttle shaft seals even if you don't want to tackle it and try to convince yourself they are OK!  :)

[fret not]

Rick G in AZ should be in on this, as he has gone through many carbs and knows what is and what is not needed.  How about CDNLOUIE too?  Tiger?  These are all folks that have been through many carbs on a regular basis and can point out what should be in the kit.

Many years ago (70s) carb kits had the parts most likely to be worn or lost, like the jets, float valve needle and seat, float bowl gasket, adjuster screws and associated springs, and a few small parts that often didn't get used (clips, washers, O rings, etc.).  I don't think we need ALL the parts, just the ones that are most likely to be worn.

[Re-Vision]

I've opened up several carbs and they vary widely as to problems that they have. Even between carbs of the same set one may have a good float valve and the other looking corroded. I was hoping that the carb Gurus would chime in with their viewpoints on assembling the minimal necessary parts for an affordable kit.     BDC

[fret not]

It seems to me the float needle and seat, gasket, fuel and air metering (jets), and soft 'rubber' parts are the most likely to be needed parts and should be supplied in the kit. 

Some parts are likely to get lost, like the tiny washer that goes with the O ring on the adjuster needle.

[QBS]

Pullshocks, perhaps a bit of heavy duty grease spread around the outside of the rubber bootie where it goes over the plunger would easily provide a seal there.  Your observation about that place being a source of "air leakage" could be very valuable.

[Cdnlouie]

You fellows have aptly described the issue around carb kits.  It is too bad that the price went up so high, but I believe that was because of the cost to produce two different carb kits for the 83 and 82.  The 83's sat on Martin's shelf (siriusonic) for a long time and did not produce any profit, so I think he increased the more popular 82 kit to make his money back (that's my guess).  Perhaps a small price to pay to keep the 83's alive.

That being said, the Sirius carb kits have the basics except the choke enrichener kit. It is good to know that they are available even for $58 when needed.  The Sirius kits have given us the accelerator diaphragm which is their true value as they would probably be sold individually for about the same as the choke plunger.  I don't know of any source to even get them so the Keyster kits have saved the day in that area.  Therefore, I would not want to shoot ourselves in the foot by keeping Martin from making some money because that could end the day for our Visions without the accelerator diaphragm.

I also agree that providing a source for some small bits and pieces that keeps someone from having to buy a kit because they only need a couple of parts is a good idea.  Therefore, if someone put together a small stock of parts that could be purchased on an as-needed basis, that might be the best.  That takes a bit of money too and everyone wants the best price so someone gets paid nothing for their work and pain to do the shipping and all the rest that goes with a $10 order. Of course the price of the kit becomes more reasonable when you factor in all the shipping charges for each individual source which makes sense for the idea of putting together one kit, thus one shipping charge.

The bottom line is that putting together a kit becomes a nasty piece of work for someone which is a bit more that can reasonably be asked (unless some really charitable person wants to do it, which would deserve our greatest admiration).  While I like the idea, I think we have the best case going for us now, which is buy a kit when needed and maybe even sell the rest to someone else to make back a bit of your outlay.

BTW if someone finds a source for that little washer on the mixture screw that would be a benefit. Putting together the sources for these parts (in one place) would be good idea so someone can order them as needed.  That way no one has to do all the work for everyone else.

I do have a bit of concern for accelerator pump nozzles as they tend to be weakly soldered and easily break when trying to remove. They can be resoldered, but these are in danger of being lost forever once they are thrown away.

Just a couple of thoughts on the topic,

[Re-Vision]

You fellows have aptly described the issue around carb kits.  It is too bad that the price went up so high, but I believe that was because of the cost to produce two different carb kits for the 83 and 82.  The 83's sat on Martin's shelf (siriusonic) for a long time and did not produce any profit, so I think he increased the more popular 82 kit to make his money back (that's my guess).  Perhaps a small price to pay to keep the 83's alive.

That being said, the Sirius carb kits have the basics except the choke enrichener kit. It is good to know that they are available even for $58 when needed.  The Sirius kits have given us the accelerator diaphragm which is their true value as they would probably be sold individually for about the same as the choke plunger.  I don't know of any source to even get them so the Keyster kits have saved the day in that area.  Therefore, I would not want to shoot ourselves in the foot by keeping Martin from making some money because that could end the day for our Visions without the accelerator diaphragm.

My 82 kit (KY- 0471) has what I believe are 83 accelerator diaphragms and no 82 diaphragms.

I also agree that providing a source for some small bits and pieces that keeps someone from having to buy a kit because they only need a couple of parts is a good idea.  Therefore, if someone put together a small stock of parts that could be purchased on an as-needed basis, that might be the best.  That takes a bit of money too and everyone wants the best price so someone gets paid nothing for their work and pain to do the shipping and all the rest that goes with a $10 order. Of course the price of the kit becomes more reasonable when you factor in all the shipping charges for each individual source which makes sense for the idea of putting together one kit, thus one shipping charge.

The bottom line is that putting together a kit becomes a nasty piece of work for someone which is a bit more that can reasonably be asked (unless some really charitable person wants to do it, which would deserve our greatest admiration).  While I like the idea, I think we have the best case going for us now, which is buy a kit when needed and maybe even sell the rest to someone else to make back a bit of your outlay.

BTW if someone finds a source for that little washer on the mixture screw that would be a benefit. Putting together the sources for these parts (in one place) would be good idea so someone can order them as needed.  That way no one has to do all the work for everyone else.

I do have a bit of concern for accelerator pump nozzles as they tend to be weakly soldered and easily break when trying to remove. They can be resoldered, but these are in danger of being lost forever once they are thrown away.

If the nozzles could be tested before overhauling the carbs, then leave them alone if they spray the proper pattern.

Just a couple of thoughts on the topic,

Thanks for the input.    BDC

[Cdnlouie]

Re-Vision I think you have the mis-labeled kit which is an actual 83 kit.  I did not check the part numbers but the 82 kits do have the proper diaphragm. One time when I had the two diaphragms together I noticed that it might be possible to use one of them (the 83) in the other (82).  I did not confirm this idea but logged it away to look into sometime.  I just say this as something that could be looked into.  It seemed like the 83 had the same 4 screw hole alignment but had a bit of  extra diaphragm that might be able to be trimmed off. I am just mentioning this in case someone might need to do it and I could confirm or disaffirm it if the need arose.

I do find that heating the carb body (not the nozzle) does help ensure the nozzle comes out easier.  A propane torch works just fine. I agree that if these are working well enough don't pull them apart.

[The Prophet of Doom]

Do you think this would turn into a fiasco?

Absolutely!!

Selling new parts is one thing.  Selling refurbished parts to people with borderline bikes is quite another.  You would end up wearing the cost of returns for problems that are nothing to do with the carbs.

[Cdnlouie]

I would have to agree with the Prophet. I have done it once for a fellow a while back who had everything else restored and was ready to give up.  I took the chance and pulled my set and sent them off to him.  He fired the bike up right away and went on a tour for his first big ride.  It was a mercy thing and I made a lifetime friend, so how can you can say it was not worth it.  However, this is more apt to be the exception; rather than the rule.

Rusty gas tanks can take down a good set of carbs real fast and that would be the greatest threat to an exchange.  Once again, the time to install them on your bike and then take them off and put back your set is a task.  Lucky has done that a few times over the years too and for next to nothing, which is pretty much the highest act of kindness one can imagine.  Most of these bikes don't get picked up by rich people so budget is always a challenge.  It is a good idea but it would not be unreasonable to expect at least $250 for an exchange of a road tested, properly set up carbs and that would still be a big favor.  A minor cleaning throughout takes about 5 hours and any restoration work just extends that by so much more.  That's why we end up on this site trying to figure out how to do it ourselves.  It is the only viable option for a bike not worth too much.

At the end of the day there is no reason someone can't get back on the road with someone's help, but it is because of the good will of fellows here.  That is pretty much the best deal of the day.

[fret not]

Cdnlouie, thanks for your considered perspective and sage advice.  Glad you stopped by.

[Cdnlouie]

My pleasure , I'm glad you fellers are still sorting out Vision issues.  These bikes have certainly provided a great deal of entertainment over the years.  I might mention that you don't need to be worried about air leakage on the choke cover plunger as it is really only a dust cover.  As long as it is covering the plunger it keeps water out and dirt.

Like you say, a little silicone grease can seal it up quite nicely or it can be repaired with a Goop adhesive which is flexible and will keep it doing its dust duty.  I keep a tube of the black automotive Goop that repairs rubber exterior components quite well.  The real seal is made on the end of the plunger with the embedded rubber tip.  Check to see if it looks worn or the rubber is rock hard. I imagine a new one (never seen one of those yet) is going to be a lot softer rubber and thereby seal better.