Author Topic: Does the Vision have a future?  (Read 11849 times)

fret not

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Re: Does the Vision have a future?
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2014, 01:41:50 AM »
Black and gold Norton?  Racer???
Retired, on the downhill slide. . . . . . . . still feels like going uphill!

supervision

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Re: Does the Vision have a future?
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2014, 10:44:06 AM »
 Fret, they are kind of red white and blue, made in 1973. search you can pictures easy
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Prophet Of Doom

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Re: Does the Vision have a future?
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2014, 06:11:54 PM »
Back on topic, I'd like to know what Bobby was thinking - do you have a cunning plan that you haven't said out loud?

Re-Vision

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Re: Does the Vision have a future?
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2014, 07:36:45 PM »
Rohan, I thought I was being cunning by asking you guys for ideas on stimulating interest. Solving Vision problems would surely increase interest. How about building new harnesses? That would eliminate a slew of problems. I'm willing to give a bike and/or time and perhaps some money to help build a better Vision, would like to find some other Visioneers wanting to surmount some of our obstacles. Time, energy, and money can overcome all our problems if we can devise a method for us to unite and work together to accomplish what no individual will do on his on.            BDC

QBS

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Re: Does the Vision have a future?
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2014, 12:05:37 AM »
It would seem, that with the discovery of the latest RR design, the only remaining V issue is finicky carbs.  The starter clutch attachment and starter motor oil seal problems were solved long ago.  Whatever perceived V problems that may appear to remain are really common to all old unloved MCs in general.

Prophet Of Doom

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Re: Does the Vision have a future?
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2014, 04:09:05 AM »
I think perhaps the best way to approach this would be to have an as-new museum quality restoration - and get it into somewhere like Barbers Museum where it would be seen and photographed by hundreds of thousands of motorcycle enthusiasts.  I think the Vision is unique enough to qualify.   A heavily modified bike might get more interest if it got on bike EXIF - but only from people wanting to chop them up :-(

I'm too far away to help much in a resto-build, but could provide some refurbished parts if someone took it on seriously.


On the harness problem...
They are a major issue, but one that's common to all bikes of the era - especially when they have sat outdoors for long.

From having ripped into several XZ looms I can authoritatively say that (if not hacked about) the wire and insulation is probably still perfectly good - the ones I have seen just need re-wrapping and new connectors (with grease and silicone).  My experience has been that for most people this is the last thing they would try and do, yet replacing connectors is not that much more effort than cleaning them, Cleaning can't fix years of UV damage but replace them and you are looking at another 30 years of trouble free service.


don_vanecek

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Re: Does the Vision have a future?
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2014, 12:18:01 PM »
IMHO the Vision is a very "unique" bike but it will never get "classic" status, a few perfect survivors my ask premium prices, but most Visions aren't worth much  .  I would very rarely get anyone interested my Vision the couple of times I had it at some VJMC events, even though, my then "running" Vision was more rare than many  of the "classic" bikes others had there. 

Sorry to say I have now gone a year without working on mine at all, fall of 2013 I posted the "knocking" sound my motor makes but just haven't gotten around to digging into it, imagine my carbs will have to be gone though now too. Guess I will see what 2015 brings, was moving the Vision to a different location in the garage a week ago, compared to my 2000 Concours is sure felt nice and light, dang, would be nice to get running again but I think I may need a motor (chip off the end of my crank) and I just don't know anymore if I would want to invest the time, money and labor involved perhaps in a possible engine change and can I even find an engine that?  Hey Tiger nice to hear from you, notice that that he (Tiger) on all his 22 rebuilds, I don't think he ever had had to "dig" into an engine deeper than stator and starter clutch, few ROV members have ever gone deeper than that. Most likely shows the engines themselves were pretty well made. 

dingleberry

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Re: Does the Vision have a future?
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2014, 06:06:38 PM »
It would seem that the carbs are the biggest hard to solve and keep that way problem. So how about pulling together on developing a simple and cheap as possible injection system and supplying to members of the forum at cost. In fact stator fixes, gasket sets, all the hard to get bits as well, would be good as well. Then again if all the problems were ironed out they wouldn't be such a rarity on the road perhaps, and maybe wouldn't attract the interest that they apparently do now when seen by the uninformed general public?
Disregard my previous comment about concreting a Vision in a local playground. There is obviously not enough cotton wool on these bikes even if the governing bodies would allow our children to play on such terrible machines lest they grow up into free spirits who ride bikes... ;)
You like, oui?

fret not

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Re: Does the Vision have a future?
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2014, 03:08:10 AM »
It has been pointed out by Motoracer8 that the electrical system, particularly the ignition system, is weak and likely much of the 'carburation' issues.  A robust ECU (electronic control unit) would be a huge step forward, and something that can either be designed and fabricated or some other existing unit might be adapted to our project.  I think a good ignition system might be the missing link, though there are other areas that could be strengthened.  There is a well regarded company in eastern Europe called Ignitech who might be able to come up with something.  They make several variations of ignition units for street and some for racing, as well as injection systems.

Fuel injection will take someone with technical expertise to adapt a set up from another bike or fit and sort out a  new add on system like Megasquirt.  There are injection systems out there but they are not inexpensive, so finding the best value would be up to someone that knows how to sort through these things.
Retired, on the downhill slide. . . . . . . . still feels like going uphill!

Rikugun

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Re: Does the Vision have a future?
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2014, 09:11:43 AM »
I'd have to side with dingleberry on this point - not the cement shoes idea but rather the carb bugaboo concerns. If I prioritized Vision flaws, carbs would head the list. There have been anecdotal claims and a few members documented alternate carb(s) installations. None that I recall seemed like substantive improvements though. To do it right would take quite a bit of R&D and for FI even more. If it were easy or cheap it would be in widespread use by now.

If one were to throw money at the bike, my guess is better induction would yield the greatest impact in owner satisfaction ratings. As far as the electrical system is concerned, the same care/upgrades given any older model is sufficient to make the bike reliable in that regard. To the ignition system concern, there are known rev limiter issues that affect some examples but I disagree ignition is this bike's biggest problem. Just my 2 cents.
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is then to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.  Carl Sagan

Tiger

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Re: Does the Vision have a future?
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2014, 07:46:16 AM »
 To answer the question...Does the Vision have a future?... YES it does, as long as this forum is alive 'n kicking 8)

John.
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming HOOOOYA lets go again baby !!!!!!

'82 Vision, Pearl Orange finish, lots of up-grades!!!

Prophet Of Doom

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Re: Does the Vision have a future?
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2014, 08:11:59 PM »
Nice answer Tiger.

Extent

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Re: Does the Vision have a future?
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2014, 02:02:23 AM »
Ignitech already has an xz map for their ignitions.  It's a plug and play affair and it runs great.
Rider1>No wonder, the Daytona has very sharp steering and aggressive geometry.  It's a very difficult bike for a new rider.
Rider2>Well it has different geometry now.

fret not

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Re: Does the Vision have a future?
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2014, 01:33:14 AM »
Hmmmmmmm . . . .   an Ignitech ignition box and better coils might be the basis for a more user friendly personality for the XZ, at least as far as starting.
Retired, on the downhill slide. . . . . . . . still feels like going uphill!

Re-Vision

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Re: Does the Vision have a future?
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2014, 09:34:32 AM »
Do we have a list of all modifications and their sources anywhere in the archives?    BDC

Tiger, appreciated the list of preventive measures you perform on the bikes.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 09:37:26 AM by Re-Vision »

Prophet Of Doom

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Re: Does the Vision have a future?
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2014, 12:41:20 AM »
Do we have a list of all modifications and their sources anywhere in the archives?    BDC

Tiger, appreciated the list of preventive measures you perform on the bikes.
I did a list when I started my bike from trawling through the forums.  I Couldn't find it - but here's a thread that can be added to

http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=13511.0
« Last Edit: December 13, 2014, 03:00:08 AM by ProphetOfDoom »

Prophet Of Doom

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Re: Does the Vision have a future?
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2014, 10:39:45 PM »
OK Found my list.  Not sure everything is there, but a good start

Cylinder head
YICS removal & cap ports
YICS replacement
Relocate breathers to catch can
Iridium sparkplugs
82-83 gaskets
Use two rear valve covers for better crankcase venting
Cut 0.5mm from cylinder surfaces
Smooth intake ports

Cylinder
Rebore to 650cc

Crankshaft piston
Bore and Stroke to 750cc
Uprated Rods and bearings
Wiseco pistons
Harmonic balance crank

Balancer
Balancer removal

Camshaft Chain
Replacement race cams
Twingle cam timing

Valve
?

Water Pump
?

Radiator Hose
Replacement fan motor
Silicon hoses
Fan sensor bypass switch
Trim pointy bits off radiator shroud
Remove / replace radiator shroud with alloy
Waterless coolant

Oil Pump
?

Oil Filter
Oil Cooler

Air Filter
82->83 Flapper assembly
Replace filter material with K&N or similar
Intake trumpet extensions
Pod filters

Carburetor
Longer trumpets
Replacement Carb (Weber dual throat, Single slide, single downdraught)
Rejet
Polyurethane fuel lines
Fuel line magnets
In-line fuel filter
Electric fuel pump
Intake restrictors

Exhaust
Flanges welded to Y piece
Replacement exhaust (Predator, Spec2, Cycleworks, Wolf, Marving, Macs, Supertrapp, Custom)
Exhaust baffle removal

Crankcase
Semi-synthetic oil

Crankcase Cover
Cooling fins
Engine guards
Crankcase thermometer
Crash guards

Generator
Ricks Stator
Honda 30 Amp stator
550 -> 400 Flywheel swap (or lighten stock flywheel)
Waterproof stator connector
Drilled Flywheel bolt
Stator removal

Starting Motor
Replace Nose Seal

Starter Clutch
Longer bolts and peen

Clutch
Heavy duty clutch springs
Euro -> US -> XZ400 gearing swap

Transmission
Replace transmission with RD400 6-speed

Middle Drive Gear
Chain drive conversion
Shift Cam Fork

Shift Shaft
Replacement Shift lever

Frame
Improve Bolts
De-tab
Full frame replacements
Grab handle removal
Remove main stand

Fender
Shorten front and/or rear
Relocate licence holder
Upgrade tookit
Side Cover

Swing Arm
Bronze swingarm bushings

Drive Shaft
Chain conversion

Rear Shock
82->83 swap
R1 (early model)
Ducati Paso or Triumph shock with relocated mount

Front Fork
Additional spacers
Progressive springs (Except R16)
Racetech emulators
82->83 Air caps/Stanchions
Air Valve
Gaiters
Fork Brace
Full front end conversion
Air balancer tube

Steering
Tapered roller bearings
Steering Damper

Fuel Tank
POR 15 Liner
Drill Neck
Replace (eg vision tracker)
Insulated lining on bottom

Seat
Corbin seat
Carved foam
Gel Insert
Single race seat
Replacement cowl

Front Wheel
82->83 or XZ400 slotted disk rotors
R1 Bigger diameter rotors (& Caliper swap)
Aftermarket rotors (EBC and similar)
Increase tyre size up to 110
Virago Wheel

Front Brake Caliper
82->83 Dual disk front brake (US Only)
82->83 Dual disk master cylinder (US Only)
Stainless Braided Brake Lines (1, 2 or 3 line kit)
Large 4-pot calipers & adapters
Sintered pads
Brembo pads

Rear Wheel
Increase tyre size up to 120
Virago Wheel

Handlebar Cable
82->83 risers (US Only)
RG250 Clip-ons (cut stock risers)
Bolt-on risers and traditional handlebar
Foam or gel grips
Handlebar end mirrors
Hand protectors

Front Master Cylinder
Replace with aftermarket
Drill and re-tap for socket head screws

Stand Footrest
82->83 swap
Swap with 400D/550D Alloy
Cut/replace exhaust hangers
Replace brake pedal
Remove rear stand
Aftermarket rearsets (Raask)

Meter
Complete replacement (Digital dash etc)

Headlight
7 Round Headlight
High output bulb
Headlight modulator
LED Conversion

Taillight
LED Conversion

Turn Signal
Stumpy Stalks
Complete replacement

Electrical
Ignitech replacement TCI (Programmable or non programmable)
Throttle Position Sensor (for use with Ignitech TCI-P4)
Ricks Stator
Replacement Connectors
136db Stebel Nautilus Horn
VW 6Volt horn
Volt meter
Cut TCI rev limiter
Toggle switch for cooling fan
Relocate r/r to outside bike
Replace r/r with mosfet shunt or series type
Replace fuse box with blade type
Driving lights
AGM/LiFe Battery
Accessory outlet
Full re-wire
Motogadget m-unit, m-lock, m-button
Aftermarket coils (Dyna or Nology)
Silicon spark leads

Handlebar Switch - Lever
Drilled Lever ends
Aftermarket levers
Euro Flash to pass swap

Fairing
83 Fairing
83 / Sports / Shark Fairing
Aftermarket fairings
Trim windscreen
Extra length wiindscreen

Other
Hard Luggage (Shoei, Yamaha,
Pack Rack
Non-standard paint
Powdercoat
Digital clock, Radar detector, GPS
« Last Edit: June 20, 2015, 04:08:33 AM by ProphetOfDoom »

Re-Vision

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Re: Does the Vision have a future?
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2014, 11:04:49 PM »
Awesome, thanks.     BDC

motoracer8

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Re: Does the Vision have a future?
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2015, 04:28:56 PM »
 Slightly off topic but it has merit. In the 50's someone at Edelbrock designed 4 duel throat down draft carbs for early V8's. This was before the Webber down draft appeared.  They couldn't get them to work right. They finally found that the notorious week ignitions of the time was the problem.

 Notorious week ignitions? I give you 70's and 80's motorcycle ignitions. It's funny that when you have a good hot spark many carburetor problems go away.

 The Vision race bike I built 30 years ago had a home built ignition amplifier and 20,000 volt coils. The stock Vision ignition system will barely make 6000 volts, and that's in good condition.

 Just a pair of 12,000 volt coils would make a difference. But they would overheat the the cheap output transisters in the mystery box because they draw more currant.

 I've installed aftermarket electronic ignition systems on my British bikes and they start and run fine even with their sloppy Amal carburetors.

 I've thought of experimenting with one of the aftermarket ignition units for British twins but have never gotten around to it. Even the Boyer amplifiers whitch I consider crap, are better than the stock Yamaha part.

 There's room for improvement on the Visions ignition system if one is motivated. 

 To start, make sure everything is clean and tight. And by all means replace the plug wires and plug caps so what little juice the coils have can get to the spark plugs.

 Ken
83 Vision and 11 others, Japanese, German and British

fret not

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Re: Does the Vision have a future?
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2015, 12:35:18 AM »
Ken, thanks for the perspective.  It sounds to me like the Ignitech  ignition and better coils might well be money well spent.  From their website their prices seem pretty reasonable considering the technology involved.
Retired, on the downhill slide. . . . . . . . still feels like going uphill!