Visioné Café Racer update

Started by turbosteve84, January 24, 2015, 08:09:12 PM

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turbosteve84

Proceeding -- slowly due to crappy weather here in the Northeast U.S. -- with my Vision Café Racer project, the Visioné It snowed here today, but when it stopped I continued work on the rear frame modification. Found an old steel folding chair with 7/8" diameter frame -- same diameter as the Vision frame. So I figured, what the hell? Went with the bend of the chairs rails which resulted in the back of the "hoop" coming to a point. Again, what the hell? --Steve
Steve
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The Prophet of Doom

Won't that join angle force you to have a ridge running up the cowl centreline? 

jefferson

I think that looks alot better than the regular old round ones.

turbosteve84

Quote from: ProphetOfDoom on January 24, 2015, 10:16:12 PM
Won't that join angle force you to have a ridge running up the cowl centreline?

Perhaps, but whatever I'm just going to roll with it. I can always flatten out the crease as the cowl moves forward to where it meets the seat. --Steve
Steve
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turbosteve84

Brutally cold here most of this month, so work is proceeding s-l-o-w-l-y on my Visioné Café project.
I did manage to drag the frame to a shop to get the rear-end welded in place. Made a last-minute pan -- literally took me 5 minutes -- to weld in there for future electric gizmos, maybe a gel battery. Now it's on to shaping a tail piece. THAT should be fun. --Steve
Steve
saddlebums.tumblr.com

Rikugun

Even slow progress is better than none and I feel your pain with the cold. I'll be looking forward to your tail piece build as I'm not familiar with those kinds of fabricating practices. What process will you use?
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is then to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.  Carl Sagan

turbosteve84

You're not familiar with tail piece fabricating? That makes two of us!
I'm going to carve it out of blocks of foam insulation and then lay strips of fiberglass over it. Never done either so this should be interesting! Saw it done on YouTube.
I took the image I Photoshopped of the bike and scaled the tail piece up to full size. From there I'm making a template to pin onto the foam so I can get a rough shape. Then it's carving and shaping the foam to something that (hopefully) looks like the Photoshopped image. Have to wait for warm weather to lay the fiberglass as I told it's something you definitely want to do outdoors. Then it's sanding, Bondo, and more sanding before painting. At least that's the plan.
Haven't a clue as to how I'm going to fasten the finished piece to the frame. Haven't found a YouTube video on that yet, so I'm open to suggestions. --Steve
Steve
saddlebums.tumblr.com

fret not

It might be a good idea to start with the mounting 'system', and work from there.  It may take some "engineering" to get it figured out, and you may have to make a couple different pieces (and molds) that get 'glued' together after they are formed in the molds.  The widest section of the part must be at the opening of the mold, otherwise you lock the part into the mold and lose both.  So plan the shapes to be easily released from the molds.  It will help to make a mock up of cardboard or wood so you get the idea firmly grasped in your mind, and to test the shapes for the process.

I have made some molds using urethane foam NOT STYROFOAM.  Styrofoam will melt and deform from the polyester resin, I tried it once.  Urethane foam is usually yellow or brownish, similar but not the same as the stuff they sell in a can for filling up voids in walls and such.  The foam I used was two inch (50mm) thick commercial insulation panels, and I glued pieces together with the auto body filler (Bondo etc.).  It helps to make the pieces of foam fit together closely so there isn't much Bondo between them because the foam is soooo much easier to carve than the Bondo.  I guess you could also glue the foam together with urethane glue like Gorilla Glue etc. since it is mostly the same stuff.

You need mold release, and you need to learn how to use it.  You will need acetone to clean up with.  You should have a bunch of cheap bristle brushes 1" - 2" (25mm - 75mm) that get used once and thrown away as the resin sets.  With the brushes you apply the resin and dab at the air bubbles under the glass fabric to dislodge them.  Make sure you get any loose fibers laid down into the resin because anything that is sticking up or out will get hard as the resin sets and become dangerous to your hands.  This also helps make a neater job of it.

It's a messy job especially for the uninitiated, but you will learn to keep your area clear, and to prevent some issues down the line.

There are a couple approaches to consider, that being making a 'one off', or making a mold so that many duplicates can be made.  It's about the same amount of work either way, so consider making the mold, you might be able to sell some parts.  Then there are the inside and outside mold types.  The inside mold you make your buck or plug, and make your part over the outside of that, finishing the surface.  The outside mold you make your buck or plug and make your mold over that.  Then you do any surface refinement on the inside of that mold, wax it and start making your parts in it.

It can take a lot of thought to get it all good the first time.  You will learn as you go, come up with better ways to do things, become more efficient and better at the process.  You just gained skill by doing this.

Harbor Fright has nytril gloves.  Try to keep your skin away from the resin, hardener (especially), and thinner.
Retired, on the downhill slide. . . . . . . . still feels like going uphill!

Rikugun

Good tips there Fret. I like the idea of planning the attachment method beforehand and working backwards from there. Maybe tabs on the frame with j-nuts and reinforced areas on the cowl where screws go through?

I'd considered doing a layup of carbon fiber and/or fiberglass on a broken '83 windscreen to use as a mounting plate for a MadStad windscreen. I researched it briefly but an alternate way came about and I never tried it. I saw some YT vids where they had small (metallic?) rollers they used on the wet fabric to work bubbles out too.
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is then to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.  Carl Sagan

fret not

The rollers are like tiny agricultural plow discs, and are very effective on smooth flat surfaces but can't get into corners and recesses very well.  That's where the brushes work very well.

Like many areas of endeavor, the materials are costly but not as costly as the time you will have to put into the project.  Sometimes it's better to scrap what you spent hours doing and start over with a fresh and better approach.  It can 'cost' more to save a mis-designed part than to make a new one.  been there, done that.

I am not a professional fiberglass guy, but I have done enough of this stuff to know my way around.  My brother in law and I designed the fairing for my brother's salt flats Suzuki  It was a real trip in all senses.  It took about ten days of sixteen hours each to make the plug and get it ready for fabric and resin.  I know how to mix a batch of bondo and get it on before the 'pot' goes off.  You want to shape the filler BEFORE it totally cures, otherwise it gets very hard and takes a lot of elbow grease to work it down.  Much easier shortly after the 'pot' kicks off.

Retired, on the downhill slide. . . . . . . . still feels like going uphill!

turbosteve84

Thanks for all the tips., guys. I'm using polystyrene insulation for the mold. I've heard that "florist's foam" is easier to shape, but I've got the poly stuff and fashioned a hot-wire cutter so I'll go with that. With the method I saw on YouTube you can't salvage the mold -- at least not the way demonstrated in the video. But having copies made intrigues me.

Fret Nut -- why does a classic like Mr. Magoo's Christmas Carol not get the respect of something like A Charlie Brown Christmas? The injustice of it.
Steve
saddlebums.tumblr.com

fret not

Your question may require some deep thought. ;)

Let me suggest you test your resin process on the styrene foam.  Years ago I tried to make a road race seat with styrene foam as the base material for the plug.  It melted and deformed before the resin hardened.  I suppose that if you sealed the foam completely so the polyester resin won't contact it you could use styrene.  As we say in the guitar making business when a new process comes along; "test on scrap before you risk your good material". :police:

The urethane foam we used came from a trailer manufacturer, and was 'cast off' so we got it for free.  It might pay to seek out industrial operations that use the urethane foam and go through their dumpster.  Or just go buy a panel of the stuff at the building supply store.   :)
Retired, on the downhill slide. . . . . . . . still feels like going uphill!

turbosteve84

Good video on making molds here from Dime City Cycles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT6P7qaUPLw

I should have my custom fuel tank back from fabrication in two weeks. I mounted the tank and tail templates to the frame (see photo). Tank will fit the lines of the bike better than shown here (this is an early template). Tail will be more level on the top. These forms were made from the little image I Photoshopped oh so long ago. Amazing how little correcting I had to do on the full-size templates. Once these two pieces are "real" I'll start with the seat. Too difficult to fabricate myself, so I'll be farming that out after I make a workable pan. --Steve
Steve
saddlebums.tumblr.com

turbosteve84

Cleared yesterday's snow from my yard and shaped the tail piece today! I think it came out OK and I'm happy to say I'm satisfied. Used florist's foam instead of the polystyrene for the plug. It's easier to shape -- maybe too easy. Finished it off with 150 grit sandpaper because the 100 I was using was removing material too fast! Rounded the back instead of angling it like in my Photoshopped model. I want to fit it OVER the frame rails, so I needed the back to be vertical for about an inch-and-a-half. An angled back wouldn't allow that.

Another first time effort for me will be fiberglassing the plug. Been watching YouTube videos on it (Dime City Cycles has a good one) so I'm going in with a little confidence. --Steve
Steve
saddlebums.tumblr.com

fret not

Give some thought to getting the plug out of the mold.  I think you may best make 2 molds, one for the outside shape you just created, and one for the actual part you sit on and lean your butt against.  It's easy enough to make two molds, and glass the two parts together after they are removed from their molds.  If you can do it with just one mold more power to you.  Just remember that all surfaces in the mold must open toward the separation edge of your part(s).  To simplify the concept: you can make a wedge shape with the wide part at the opening of the mold, but you can't make a wedge shape with the wide part deeper in the mold.  Well, you COULD make it that way but you would have to destroy the mold th get the part out and then would not be able to make repeated copies.

This requires a bit of planning, and it is better to do that before you start making parts rather than after.  It's all about making things fit when you go to use them
Retired, on the downhill slide. . . . . . . . still feels like going uphill!

turbosteve84

I hear you. Once I get this rear cowl glassed and have the fuel tank in hand I can measure out the dimensions of the seat/butt rest. I figure it's easier that way, with the seat/butt rest being the variable that will be sized to fit between the rear cowl and tank. I'm thinking of a two-piece affair, similar to the SDR250 pictured here...
Steve
saddlebums.tumblr.com

turbosteve84

#16
OK, tail piece is glassed!

My first try at this, so in that light I'm kinda satisfied. Will require more sanding and Bondo-ing than I had planned but all I've got is time.

Some tips:

1) DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT DOING THIS INDOORS. Fiberglass strands get EVERYWHERE. There's a reason in the best YouTube videos the glasser is covered in a hazmat suit. And the narcotic fumes? In the words of that immortal stoner J. Hendirx, "Excuse me, while I kiss the sky!"

2) I used one quart (U.S.) of resin for this little tailpiece. Mix a quarter pint at a time -- that's all it takes to cover something this size. If you mix too much you're throwing half of it out. Resin, glass, resin. Repeat.

3) Never touch the piece with your hands. It's tempting, but if you have to stabilize the piece fasten it to A VERY LARGE PIECE OF PLYWOOD beforehand. My GLOVED hands looked like a yeti's paws in no time! Live and learn.

4) CUT SMALL PIECES OF FIBERGLASS MAT BEFORE YOU MIX THE RESIN AND TEST THEM ON THE PLUG. Any moron (hands?) like me can glass a flat surface. Mastering those curves is what separates the men from the boys. Too big a piece of mat will be tough to work around the curves. Trust me.

5) WORK CAREFREE WITHOUT FINESSE! (Good news for those with meat cleavers at the end of their wrists). Can't believe I just typed that! I've always learned "finesse over force," but here you want neither. POUR the resin on and really let the fiberglass mat soak in over it thoroughly. I used the mat-over-resin method. The more saturated the glass the easier it is to work. And keep applying resin! I found that the more you work it the slower it gels up. Get messy! It's easy, trust me (again).

6) I used two applications of glass and I'm satisfied with the thickness. Of course I haven't sanded it yet so that could change. But I can always apply more glass.

7) Don't bother trying to save the plug. I know, I know, you want to maybe make multiple copies in the future. Shaping the piece is a lot easier (I found) than the messy job of glassing. If you use florists' foam like I did it's very hard to remove the plug without crushing the foam. I you want to make multiple copies carve a plug out of wood.

8) (Why am I getting an sunglassed face here when I wanted the number eight?). You don't need a specialized release agent. Car wax is fine -- lots of it. Apply, apply and then apply some more. Don't buff it (why would you?). After writing tip #7 I remembered that the top of the plug came out in one piece. Why? That's where the most wax was.

Next it's on to sanding and Bondo-ing.  --Steve
Steve
saddlebums.tumblr.com

fret not

Steve, are you going to make the seat pan and attach it to the 'cowl' you just made?  Usually the seat and 'cowl' are one piece when completed.  Hey, whatever works should be good, right?
Retired, on the downhill slide. . . . . . . . still feels like going uphill!

turbosteve84

Yes. Mounting the tail, waiting (still) for the fabricated tank, then will measure how much room I'll need for the missing piece of the puzzle, the seat. Unorthodox, yes, but I can't see why it wouldn't work. I've plenty to do in the meantime to keep me busy, like sanding the glassed tail, re-assembling the forks (with Progressive springs), and glass-beading and polishing or painting various parts. Anyone ever paint rear the rear shock spring? --Steve
Steve
saddlebums.tumblr.com

The Prophet of Doom

The spring is easy enough to remove - I made a version of the DIY spring compressor I found here www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpZyddxVARc

Stupid me - I hand brushed it with white enamel enamel - not a great finish and it didn't hold up to use and ended up looking worse.
I'll powdercoat next time round, .