Author Topic: Starter disassemble  (Read 2832 times)

Fuzzlewump

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Starter disassemble
« on: December 02, 2012, 09:10:56 PM »
 I'm taking the starter apart to clean it and put the new oil seal upgrade on (thanks Jim!)...

 The oil seal definitely hadn't been done before...this thing is filled with oil! It took a while to get the old seal out (I actually had to hold the nose down on the carpet with my feet and use a pair of vice pliers to remove it.....hand-made ON KRYPTON I think, because it made me feel weak as a kitten.  :D I was afraid I was trying to remove something that wasn't supposed to come out, it was that stubborn. But success!

 Anyhow, I've searched through the forums and manuals, and I don't see an explanation of how to remove the commutator unit from the starter body. I see photos showing the whole thing dissasembled, but nothing saying exactly how you take this guy apart?

 Also, should I grease the bearings in the nose before putting it all back together?
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PwrManDan

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Re: Starter disassemble
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2012, 09:28:02 PM »
I will be following you Fuzzlewump as I have a rebuild to do as well.  Good luck!

Re-Vision

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Re: Starter disassemble
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2012, 10:42:37 PM »
In case you need spare parts.   

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1982-Yamaha-XZ550-XZ-550-Vision-Starter-/150950297592?fits=Make:Yamaha|Model:XZ&hash=item232556bff8&item=150950297592&pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

BDC

Fuzzlewump

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Re: Starter disassemble
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2012, 11:59:30 PM »
$20! That's a helluva price for one of these things. Thanks for the link, Re-Vision.

 PwrManDan, I kept digging around and fiddling, and finally discovered that the end cap to the motor housing is supposed to just pop off with a push from the other end (keep an eye for the washers that pop out with it). Mine wasn't doing this because it had so much oily gunk built up inside that it was clogging and not moving freely. After a bit of force and patience, I managed to work it out. Just FYI, for future reference. I'm saving links to good photos and threads on this rebuild, so if you like I can forward them to you once you start yours. It's quite a bit of digging.

 This thing really is filthy, man. Glad to have the headsup from other Visionaries on the starter issue, or I might have let this go until it got absolutely trashed.
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QBS

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Re: Starter disassemble
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2012, 12:09:13 AM »
Upon reassembly, focus on correct planetary gear alignment or the unit won't turn well and might possibly crack the gear case.

Fuzzlewump

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Re: Starter disassemble
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2012, 12:22:54 AM »
Ok, will do. In fact, I'm going to check into that right now...
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Lucky

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Starter disassemble
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2012, 10:46:01 AM »
Don't forget a dab of Molly on the gears and ends of the armature shafts


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67GTO

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Re: Starter disassemble
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2012, 09:29:39 PM »
When you reassemble it make sure the marks on the main body line up with the
marks on each end cap!
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PwrManDan

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Re: Starter disassemble
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2012, 10:08:46 PM »
$20! That's a helluva price for one of these things. Thanks for the link, Re-Vision.

 PwrManDan, I kept digging around and fiddling, and finally discovered that the end cap to the motor housing is supposed to just pop off with a push from the other end (keep an eye for the washers that pop out with it). Mine wasn't doing this because it had so much oily gunk built up inside that it was clogging and not moving freely. After a bit of force and patience, I managed to work it out. Just FYI, for future reference. I'm saving links to good photos and threads on this rebuild, so if you like I can forward them to you once you start yours. It's quite a bit of digging.


Mine came in pieces, so if you could send a picture of where the washers go I sure would appreciate that.  How many washers did you come up with?  Mine came with three.

Re-Vision

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Re: Starter disassemble
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2012, 10:41:32 PM »

Fuzzlewump

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Re: Starter disassemble *PHOTOS*
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2012, 12:54:41 AM »
 
 Okay, so I went through the starter cleanup and got her back together. The job isn't that difficult to do, it's pretty straightforward. It did take a lot of time though, because of how filthy it was inside. Parts sticking together or jammed, etc. It's obvious why it's no. 3 on Lucky's top ten.

 EVERYTHING I needed to know was found somewhere on ROV, or on members' personal sites (where else would it be? lol)... I found the starter rebuild page in the Technical section to be the best place to begin, with forum posts filling in the blanks. Haynes manual was also necessary for specifics on testing the coil. Yamaha manual was a joke.

 I'm new to mechanical work that's this detailed, so I kept wishing I had photos of certain parts. I took some as I went along, and hopefully they can help someone else later...

 1. Looking through the forum, there seems to be a common confusion amongst us newbies over which seal is which. Names/descriptions of seals get mixed up quite a bit when you start digging through the posts. Visionaries who have already done the rebuild have been very patient and helpful in explaining these differences in the seals, and I'm hoping that this photo will add to the clarity they've provided.

 
 *Part numbers for seals (and other starter components) are listed in the childboard Parts and Upgrades. There's a mention of the "backer" o-ring being sourced through Able Seal and Design in Canada, and this is the thread that post is referencing...

http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=13078.0

(jasonm. has reported using Permatex Ultra Grey in the place of the backer seals as a cheap temporary fix.)
 
 **The exterior nose o-ring is the only "seal" I couldn't find an replacement for so far. OEM for this part is unavailable. The link below is a good one for specs on this ring and others that might fit. I'm still looking into this one.

http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=12819.msg116653#msg116653

 ***Notice the tiny pin in the top left part of the nose, in the photo on top. Jimmustanguitar gave me a heads up about that one, and it's a good thing he did because I almost lost it even when watching for it.
 If it is lost, it can be replaced....Night Vision has stated that he's used the cut-off end of a finishing nail, Lucky suggests a piece of a coat hanger or the shaft of an old Dremil bit, and one member claimed he found a pin from a copying machine that fit.

 2. The old oil seal was the most difficult thing to remove, even more stubborn than the main gear shaft. It surprised me that it was made of metal, and didn't look much like the new seal.


 3. Yeah. That's nasty.


 4. Don't forget to put grease here, but not too much. Others warn that it can make for difficult reassembly.


 5. There are six thrust washers total. Three go on each end of the coil unit. As Re-Vision recently pointed out, a thick one should be sandwiched between two thin ones. I couldn't see these at first because they were so covered in oil. Don't know where they can be sourced.


 6. As others have made clear, the best way to align the planetary gears is with a STRAIGHT edge. Just being one tooth off is a recipe for disaster. This clear plastic ruler turned out to be perfect for the job, as it allowed me to see that the edge of my ruler was running exactly through the center of each gear. When the gears are aligned properly, you can turn the assembled starter freely by hand.


 
 7. I ordered an ebay rebuild kit. They're cheap as hell considering the cost of individual parts. From searching the forum it's evident that if you order one from an ebay seller, you might very well wind up with a nondescript bright yellow package labeled simply, "RBK-38". This kit can be purchased directly here...

 http://www.emsglobaldirect.com/product.php?productid=386

 or here...

 http://www.stockers.com/index.php?dt=RBK-38

 It has everything you need for a rebuild (including the spring-lipped oil seal!), but it does have its drawbacks...

 -It does not come with thrust washers. I don't know of any place to find replacements, but from the size of them I'd say most large hardware stores should have good matches.

 -Some have reported the nose o-ring leaking after a short time, others have said they've had no problem. Mine is not a good match to the old one, it's big enough that it can easily be rolled out of the groove by hand.

 -Jimustanguitar posted not long ago that his kit came with a shorter lead wire from brush to bolt than OEM...  http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=14353.msg130229#msg130229

 Mine had the same issue. It was suggested that the brushes were worn too low, but as you can see in these photos, the bolt length of mine was also much shorter than the original.
 I did as Jim did and gave length to the bolt inside the housing so it could be tightened without pulling the short lead wire, but I had to use two of the small insulating washers that came in the kit. This left very little room outside the nose, and I was only able to put one nut on the end of the bolt. I still had the bottom rubber half of the original washer that fit into the hole, so I put it back in the hole as an insulator for that end of the bolt, and did what I could with the rest of the bolt length. I don't have the resources to replace the wire itself with a longer one, so I gave this a try.
 If anyone knows of a more solid solution to this problem, please let me know, because I'm not super confident in mine.

 






 Here's a final link to a thread I found with some good photos/info of the disassembled starter.

 
http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=9241.msg85769#msg85769


 This has been a helluva learning experience, but man I'm exhausted. Hopefully this will be a helpful contribution to the forum, because it's been awesome to have great resources from Visionaries before me on such a cool project.

 Next up is the starter clutch, and not long after will be tank and carbs. Little by little...
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 11:50:27 PM by Fuzzlewump »
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QBS

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Re: Starter disassemble
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2012, 10:04:04 AM »
Grease the nose ring seal for easier insertion of starter nose into engine case.

Rikugun

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Re: Starter disassemble
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2012, 11:56:42 AM »
Fuzzlewump  - VERY nice post. Thank you. Love the detail and great photography!  :D  :D
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QBS

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Re: Starter disassemble
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2012, 12:32:29 PM »
++1

pinholenz

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Re: Starter disassemble
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2012, 04:07:27 PM »
Excellent post Fuzzlewump thank you, thank you! Have just done my first starter rebuild and this thread was invaluable.

Here's a couple of other very obvious things that aren't so obvious for us first-timers. (And the Haynes manual has a very poor exploded view of the starter)

1. Where is that damned oil seal? Its in the nose cone and can't be seen till you remove the drive shaft from the nose cone. To get to it, remove the outer circlip from the drive shaft, slide the gear off the spline, then remove the circlip nearest the nose cone. Next, hold the nose cone in your hand and hammer the splined end of the shaft to drive the shaft back out through the ball race bearing. If you have a soft copper or nylon hammer, use that to avoid any risk of damage. Otherwise be careful. Once you start hitting the shaft, that's when the small aligning pin in the nosecone will fall neatly into your hand if you have forgotten to remove it already.
2. Removing the old oil seal Mine was a metal shroud seal just like the one in Fuzzlewumps post. Probably original. This can easily be removed by tapping the rim with a screwdriver poked through the bearing end of the nose cone. Its an interference fit but will come out with a couple of taps. Clean and replace with the new SKF seal. (Thanks Jim!!)
3. Reinstalling the drive shaft If you haven't got a bearing press.  Place the nose cone face down on a large socket big enough to support the nose cone without interfering with the bearing or shaft. Lightly grease the shaft and the back face of the spigot plate. Align the shaft into the bearing.  Place a piece of wood between the spigots and firmly tap the drive shaft back into place. Make sure the shaft does not hit the supporting socket. You might need a couple of firm whacks to get the circlip groove to appear on the outer edge of the bearing.

This is the hardest part of the job. The rest is just cleaning and being careful. Don't put the starter back in to the bike unless you can turn the starter by hand from the drive shaft gear. If you can't, the planetary gears are misaligned. >:(
Only one '82.5  eXtreme Zen 550

Fuzzlewump

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Re: Starter disassemble
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2012, 09:05:11 PM »
 I'm glad the thread could help!

 The more I work on my bike, the more amazed I am with how much information and assistance is available here. Between this website and the sites of forum members, it seems everything I need to know is here to thumb through. The folks here at ROV are all very kind and supportive. I'm a complete novice to this kind of project, and for me this really is a kick-ass community. That's cool that I could toss in a couple cents to keep the vibe going!

 I gotta agree that removing and then re-installing the drive shaft was probably the hardest part of this one. That thing is seriously stuck in there. Wish I'd thought of removing the old seal like you described, would have saved me some headache!
 
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injuhneer

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Re: Starter disassemble
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2019, 01:10:36 AM »
I noticed in the Yamaha service manual that it is recommended to clean the commutator with 600 grit sandpaper. Hmmm.

Best practice would be to turn the commutator in a lathe to get a smooth bright surface. It could be polished with crocus cloth but lower grits will leave scratches and abrasive particles that rapidly accelerate the wear of the brushes.

Second best would be to use a drill motor (fixed to a vise, table or other) at low speed to rotate the armature. Use a flat mill file (single cut, smooth) to carefully file the commutator with light even strokes. If you are concerned with damaging the winding make a small cardboard disk shaped shield to slide on the commutator.

Lastly the insulation between the pads needs to be relieved or undercut. There is a tool for this but a small section of a fine hacksaw blade will do nicely. Again if you are concerned with damaging the windings make a shield.

Last note: Get a Viton seal rather than nitrile. It will last a long, long time.

HTH.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 09:49:36 AM by injuhneer »
- Mike O
injuhneer
1982 Yamaha XZ550RJ
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1975 Honda ST-90 (164cc stroker)
1972 Kaw GT4R
1978 Kaw KM100
2008 KTM 450 SXF