Friggin' flywheel

[skucera]

Yes, it did, but I exchanged for a battery with caps and everything else that was supposed to be in the box.

I also filled the battery, waited, charged, and saw it was ready, so I hooked up the battery and gave the starter a turn.  It spins, but doesn't turn the engine.  This gets me wondering if the starter clutch is designed for the right direction of rotation....

Does anyone know if the Vision's engine spins in the same direction as the rotation of the road wheels, or backward like a Virago or XV920?  My starter clutch locks up in the backward rotation, like a Virago, but if my engine and starter spin forward like most motorcycles, then I got the wrong starter clutch for this motorcycle off the shelf.  (I admit I did not compare new and old clutches to compare if they were identical.  In my hurry, I simply took one off and screwed on the other.)  My paranoid fear now is that Yamaha has nearly identical starter clutches that differ only in the direction of lockup, and I was sent one for engines that spin the other direction from my Vision's engine.

Scott

[QBS]

IIRC, CCW is direction.

[skucera]

Counter-clockwise from the left side, or the right?  If so, my new starter clutch is intended for a clockwise spinning engine... phooey.  Time to look for the right part.

Scott

[Rikugun]

Based on your picture of the flywheel I'd say anti clockwise observing from the flywheel side. You can see the firing range marks to the left of the TDC mark for the front cylinder.

[skucera]

Thanks for the confirmation.  I looked at the gear rotations in the pictures, and realized that my starter motor must be spinning backward.  I googled that and found it isn't as freakishly weird as I thought, and often happens when the starter motor has been reassembled incorrectly.  So, it's time to think in electrons and see what is wired or assembled wrong inside it.

Scott

[Rikugun]

I wondered about that. You might search this site as well. I have a vague memory of this coming up before but I'm not sure if there was a resolution posted.

EDIT: found it
http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=14650.0

[skucera]

I spoke with one of my colleagues at work who is an electrical engineer, and he was surprised at my question, but as I drew diagrams of how it was constructed, he said that reassembling the the main casing onto the armature/commutator assembly 180° out in rotation, or flipped end for end would make the motor spin backwards when current is applied to the positive terminal.  It's because the positive and negative brushes charge up coils that are pulled or repulsed from the positively or negatively charged permanent magnets, and having them incorrectly aligned would get the armature pulling the other direction inside the permanent magnets.



As we drew diagrams I remembered a YouTube video I watched just a couple of nights ago about how to rebuild starter motors, the grizzled expert marked the end caps and the tubes for alignment, but didn't explain why he did that.  As Randy was explaining what might happen if the main barrel was assembled in the wrong orientation, I remembered these alignment marks and the little lightbulb went on over my head.

I'll have time to test that theory tonight, or maybe first thing tomorrow morning.  It's been a busy Saturday today, too busy to get out to the garage to drain the oil again and reassemble the starter motor in different configurations to see how it behaves.  Wish me luck.

Scott

[fret not]

Hey Scott,  We're all pullin' for ya. :)

[skucera]

This particular problem is now solved.  I found the end cap with the brushes and positive lug was stuck on 180° from its intended orientation.  When I rebuilt the starter, I did not know to be careful about alignment, and I misinterpreted the alignment tabs on the brush plate that fits inside that end cap.  This plate has several alignment tabs in it, and the two important ones are 180° apart, one longer than the other.  This plate fits into the end cap in only one orientation because the power lug that pokes out the back.  I incorrectly thought that the longer tab matched up to the slot in the main starter body, but the shorter one, which is a little more distal (fancy word for being further from the center), actually aligns with that slot in the body, and the longer tab merely sets the proper offset from the inner wall of the main body.  Once I rotated the end cap around, I realized that I had overlooked alignment marks cast into the cap and stamped into the main body.  Oh, if I had only known to look for those!  I reassembled the starter, tested it, and liked my result.

I put it back in the engine, hooked it up, pushed the starter button, and got nothing... no click in the starter solenoid.  Grrr...  I've checked the starter switch on the hand grip, and it is clean and seemingly correct.  I've checked the trigger wires to the starter solenoid, and they aren't getting any voltage.  I did bridge the solenoid's starter lugs, and the starter turns the engine over now, so the starter fix is verified.  :)  The solenoid itself has slightly too high resistance, at 5 Ohms, but applying 12V from a bench supply pulls the plunger down and makes contact correctly.  The neutral safety switch is working, and the Neutral light is on.  I've just read in another thread that I can open and clean it, so I will shortly, but that doesn't really get me closer to figuring out the failure to get power to the red/white and blue/white trigger wires on the solenoid.

Looking at the wiring diagram, I see a "starting circuit cut-off relay," but where is it?  I would like to check the inputs to it, so see which input is causing it to not route trigger power to the starter solenoid.  Also, where is the side stand relay?  I'd like to check its input signals too.  Time to google pictures of these relays so I can see if I can recognize them in the jumble of electrical crap under the seat.

And, thanks for pulling for me.

Scott

[cvincer]

1st thing to do, is make sure that the    run/kill   switch on the handlebar is in the  'run'  position .....I've inadvertently brushed against it several times.

[skucera]

More than that, I've tested the run/stop switch and validated that it conducts electricity when set to run, and doesn't when it is set to stop.  I've checked the two switches under the engine, the neutral position switch and the oil pressure switch (I think), and they both work and ground correctly.

I also found the locations of many relays behind the TCI and coolant overflow tank.  Using wire colors, I tested to see if I was was getting an open circuit from the run/stop switch, and I was, so I think the problem is in the relay.... Grrr.  I also tested my solenoid again, and found it isn't working now when applying current to the trigger wires, so I'm going to get a new starter solenoid too.  If I replace enough relays, maybe I can get this friggin' bike going again.

Scott

[skucera]

Don't believe the thread that says that the starter solenoid can be opened and cleaned.  The OEM model I had had very fine wires from the external trigger leads to the windings, and they break if you pull the top off.  (Notice I'm describing it in the past tense.)  It was definitely designed to not be user serviceable.  I'm glad I ordered a new one from Amazon as a precaution, because I need a new one now.

Scott

[Rikugun]

You can eliminate 2 of the relays behind the TCI if you don't care about safety. Removing them will however give you 2 less things to have to diagnose on the side of the road if they fail. The clutch lever interlock and sidestand switches can also then be removed as they will no longer function. Therein lay the safety concern.

The 2 in question are the starting circuit cut-off and sidestand relays. Use a jumper between the 2 R/W's on the starting circuit harness plug or just solder them together. If you still don't get power to the relay I'd look at the right handlebar switch again. Keep in mind the starter motor will no longer care if the bike is in neutral or not, if the clutch lever is in or out or the sidestand is up or down.

It seems odd when the starter spun backwards the relay worked but now that it's resolved it doesn't. Maybe just coincidence.

[skucera]

I've been thinking about that coincidence, and I'm not so sure it was.  When the end cap was on the starter motor backwards, it would occasionally spin the starter when I pushed the Start button, but the motor would often be in a position where magnetic forces wouldn't pull the motor around its axis, but current was still flowing through the starter solenoid. 

Once I got the end cap straightened out, I tested the starter solenoid and its resistance was higher than spec.  It was old.  I've got a new one on order from So. Cal. and it should be here in a day or two.  I'll then start my troubleshooting again, but until then I'm taking a few days off from it... or I might rashly set fire to it out of frustration.  >:(

Thanks for the troubleshooting ideas.  I think the fault may be in the wires form the Run/Start switch or the starter switch.  While troubleshooting it I noticed that the starter button was more likely to work when my handlebars were turned to the right than straight ahead or to the left, which seems like evidence of a broken wire to me.  I'll chase that idea after I get the solenoid in the mail.

Scott

[Walt_M.]

Visions will frustrate with multiple problems, however, always check your multimeter leads when troubleshooting electrical problems. You don't need to ask how I know.

[skucera]

Walt, I learned that lesson too, the hard way.  :o

Scott

[pinholenz]

Hi Scott, If you haven't got one, I do recommend a Haynes Manual for the XZ550/Vision. Things like the alignment of the starter body to the marks are clearly explained. Well worth the cost of hunting down a used copy.

[Rikugun]

or print out those pages from a free PDF and take those pages into the shop to get dirty fingerprints on     :)

[QBS]

Check out Profit's site for related V support.

[skucera]

My new starter solenoid arrived, and I got the bike started on the second push of the starter button.   ;D  Today, after getting my chores done, I'll tidy up the bodywork and take it for a spin.

[Edit:  I do own the Haynes manual, but I somehow completely overlooked the excellent instructions in it about how to rebuild a starter.  However, I did use the solenoid test to see that mine was bad.  I also used the wiring diagram from it to find the break in the wire from the Run/Stop button last week. Oh, I see I forgot to mention that little repair.

I squared away the bike this afternoon, and put it out in the driveway, ready to ride to work in the morning.]

Scott