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Silver Vision

Started by Rikugun, July 27, 2016, 09:07:43 AM

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Rikugun

I've been busy this summer bringing Silver Vision up to speed. Since I don't know it's service history I wanted to establish baselines for various maintenance aspects of the bike and it is time for the coolant. I was glad I did as the old stuff looked....well, it looked old.  :) The expansion tank was pretty dirty inside making it hard to see the level so I replaced it with a spare that I'd cleaned. Something I don't typically think of was the radiator fins. I'd recently watched an episode of "MC Garage" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt2eYZMlTFI and was inspired to have a careful look at the fins.

There were some areas on both sides (but predominantly front) where sections of fins were bent. You couldn't see through those spots so I assume air flow was obstructed as well. Some were mashed and I couldn't duplicate the original shape but all areas are now opened up. Blasting the radiator with compressed air also threw an impressive little cloud of debris although some bug parts had to be pried out. I suppose a dusting with a can of flat black couldn't hurt either as the damaged areas paint looks a bit disturbed.

EDIT: Decided to broaden the scope of this thread.
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is then to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.  Carl Sagan

The Prophet of Doom

Nice job. I used engine paint in mine. I figured it would get too hot for normal paint.

Rikugun

#2
I thought I had some black engine paint but it turned out to be blue - not sure what I had used that on. I did find a can of Rustoleum high temp black and used that instead. I gave it a light dusting in situ once it was warmed up to operating temperature. Once I installed the shroud, dimmed the lights and stood back 15 feet, it looked good.

Does anyone recognize the fan on the left? I found it in my cabinet of misfit parts. The blade diameter is about 27% larger than the XZ fan on the right for comparison.
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is then to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.  Carl Sagan

Walt_M.

I don't recognize the fan but if it fits and is more efficient, I would use it.
Whale oil beef hooked!

Rikugun

Quote from: Walt_M. on July 29, 2016, 10:19:01 AM
I don't recognize the fan but if it fits and is more efficient, I would use it.

Well it didn't exactly bolt right on but I did use it. I would like to know what application it's from for reference purposes.

The new fan had 2 mounting tabs compared to the XZ's 3. I removed all the mounts from both shrouds and modified the bits to weld back on the new fan shroud such that it would be plug and play. Incidentally, the 2 prong multi plug fits the XZ wiring harness and the wires are the same color as stock. Both are ND units with seven blade fans. Despite these similarities I wouldn't assume the new one is from another Yamaha application. Neither had data plates with RPM or current draw info but  do indicate "12V". They seem to spin the same speed.

Removing the brackets from the shrouds left spot weld holes that needed to be filled. Then the brackets had to be modified, welded together then welded back on the sheet metal shroud. Thank goodness I was welding thin metal to even thinner metal using an old Lincoln "tombstone" welder. I'd like to say "a grinder and paint make me the welder I aint" but that wouldn't be true in this instance. It's ugly, functional, and fortunately hidden from view once installed.
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is then to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.  Carl Sagan

Walt_M.

And I would say well done.
Whale oil beef hooked!

fret not

As someone is fond of saying, "declare victory and move on".  YAY!
Retired, on the downhill slide. . . . . . . . still feels like going uphill!

Rikugun

Absolutely, thanks guys. I haven't ridden it yet but did run it on the bench and let it warm up to where the fan cycled on and off a couple of times. No leaks and everything works as it should.
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is then to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.  Carl Sagan

Rikugun

#8
I looked through ebay ad's for bikes from the 80's to identify the fan I used. As far as I recall, this is the period when I would have gotten it. For future reference or anyone interested, the fan seems to be from a Honda 700/750 Sabre or Magna.

This was an enlightening project regarding the V's cooling system. If I were to do it again I'd swap the front end for one with a conventional axle location which would allow the radiator to be moved forward a bit away from the front cylinder. The current setup forces the radiator close to the engine requiring the fan to be mounted high to clear the valve cover. Some part of the blade's arc is wasted. Moved away from the cylinder's heat with room for air to move through it and a larger fan centered where it would be more effective, the Vision's cooling problems would be a thing of the past.  :)

The side by side pics are not scaled to each other but you can see that in both cases the fan's effect is not fully realized. Original fan on the right. I may have been able to get the fan a bit lower but it was awkward to mock up so I erred on the side of adequate clearance. It is a bit lower than stock and the bigger diameter covers more side to side.
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is then to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.  Carl Sagan

Walt_M.

This is interesting but I have been unexpectedly in my shop this afternoon. I have been curious about the 650 Turbo front end I have had for several years. It has been reported that it can be a direct replacement for the Vision fork. After some semi-careful measurement I can safely say it is not! Both triple clamps have offset, distance from center of the steering stem to the center of the fork tubes of 54mm. The Vision front axle is set back approx 32 mm giving the Vision front an effective offset of 22mm. The turbo fork would decrease the trail 30 or so mm. The Vision trail is 124mm or 4.88 in. I am not sure I want to be the crash test dummy for a bike with that much change in trail. Yamaha did not give the Vision the reverse axle fork for looks. 
Whale oil beef hooked!

Rikugun

QuoteI am not sure I want to be the crash test dummy for a bike with that much change in trail. Yamaha did not give the Vision the reverse axle fork for looks.

I'm not sure what their thinking was (notwithstanding the myriad of theories) but it certainly ads it's own brand of danger as delivered from Yamaha's engineers. I've heard the grave concerns regarding altering the geometry but I don't feel it's particularly safe now. It's unlikely I'll ever get to a project of that scope but wouldn't be afraid of experimenting with it.

In the meanwhile...ChrisV, when you get that center axle Vision of yours running, please report your handling findings.  ;)
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is then to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.  Carl Sagan

Walt_M.

All I know is that I am not going to put the straight axle front on mine. I am anxious enough about trying the radial tires. The front was only available in 90/90 18. I've never run a 90/90. I do need to get them changed though as the Cheng Shins are 13 years old.
Whale oil beef hooked!

QBS

What is "it's own brand of danger"?

The Prophet of Doom

I measured up a GSXR fork for a swap. The triples have a much smaller offset and the trail is unchanged.  The step was a bit too wide though - making the swap more difficult than I wanted.

Walt_M.

#14
And after going through all that, the fork legs would probably hit the tank.
I actually just thought of a way to make this work. Offset steering head bearings. And, on second thought, no. That would change the head angle and probably make it worse. This might need its own thread.
Whale oil beef hooked!

Rikugun

QuoteThis might need its own thread.
Indeed. I only (whimsically) mentioned it as a result of seeing how crammed together the fan, radiator and engine are and it's perceived effect on the cooling system. I'm in no hurry to take on such a project but would certainly start a new thread if I did. Imagine the controversy!  ;)

QuoteWhat is "it's own brand of danger"?
I've seen mentioned on the forum the front wheel's tendency to mimic a flopping grocery cart wheel when the riders influence was no longer present on the handlebars.
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is then to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.  Carl Sagan

Rikugun

As I eluded to in fret nut's "Going Riding" post, my first ride after the cooling system work resulted in failure. It's yet to be determined if it was of my own doing.

Although I ran the bike on the lift to check for - and correct - leaks, I hadn't taken it for a ride. It was a very hot day when I checked for leaks and with no airflow over the radiator it eventually triggered the "new" Honda fan which was another purpose of the test. All seemed normal so I let the fan cycle a few times and concluded the test.

Fast forward to yesterday morning's first ride. It wasn't as hot out and while moving was rather pleasant. I went the 3-4 miles to my friends house and we chatted a bit before leaving. We hadn't gone more than 5-6 miles when I looked down to see the temp gage nearly at the red. The ambient temperature was such that I would expect it to be running in the middle of the scale. I pulled into a residential street and looked for obvious problems. No leaks, it was running normally and within a minute of stopping the fan cycled. Meanwhile my buddy had turned around and found me. I turned the bike off and we commiserated while it cooled off a bit. Clearly it was time to go home. I had to stop once more to let it cool a bit before making it home. The recovery tank which had started at the low mark was now at the full mark. Since the tank lives under a side cover I don't have a sense of how much the tank level fluctuates from cold start to operating temp but I felt this was more than normal. I don't think I lost any coolant through the overflow but probably would have if I continued riding. The level was back where it started this morning.

When I noticed the problem and stopped, the hose going into the thermostat cover wasn't terribly hot. The radiator cap on the other hand was as hot as one would expect when at operating temperature. I'm not sure if I had a brain fart and installed the thermostat backwards (will it fit backwards?) or if it simply stuck closed. Given that I just recently "disturbed" all the associated cooling system components, either scenario seems likely. I'll have until the weekend to ponder other possibilities.
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is then to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.  Carl Sagan

fret not

Take the thermostat out and put it in a pan of water, on the stove, with a thermometer.  Keep your eye on the thermometer and the thermostat to see when the thermostat opens and notice the temperature.  If it's stuck it may not open.

Recently you prettied up the outside of the radiator, but did you flush the inside?  It can be surprising how much stuff can accumulate in the coolant.  Also, is the water pump moving the coolant as expected?
Retired, on the downhill slide. . . . . . . . still feels like going uphill!

Rikugun

That makes the most sense at this point to remove and check the thermostat. I may have another somewhere and if so I'll do a comparison. When you suggest "flushing", are you talking about running water through it or one of the chemical treatments commercially available?

Although this bike is still kinda' "new" to me, I had ridden it a few times prior to the cooling system work. One ride was on a day much hotter than the ride it failed on and it easily kept it's cool. My feeling was this bike is less prone to overheating than my black Vision. Given it's performance and the look of the inside of the radiator I didn't see the need to flush it although did change the coolant.
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is then to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.  Carl Sagan

fret not

In that case the problem seems to lie with the thermostat.  It's standard procedure to boil them with a thermometer to verify what temperature they open, or in this case, IF it opens.
Retired, on the downhill slide. . . . . . . . still feels like going uphill!