Author Topic: Mechanical Seal/Water Pump Overhaul (**PLEASE ADVISE**)  (Read 6516 times)

§pace_§uitor

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Re: Mechanical Seal/Water Pump Overhaul (**PLEASE ADVISE**)
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2016, 01:22:55 AM »
Progress for today:

Seems my manometer hose was too big for the tiny intake nipples, so I rebuilt it after going out for some smaller gauge.

I removed YICS module and surely enough, it failed the blow-test.  I capped off the ports.  Seems kind of strange to not have it.....perhaps I'll bolt it back on for posterity's sake.   :angel:

I also replaced a short hose that connects to front intake boot coming down from fuel pump? Not sure if this carries fuel or vacuum, or even if the hose I had to use is fuel-safe.  To be sure, I bought a foot of proper fuel line to have on hand just in case... I have now upgraded almost all of my hoses but should probably do the big ones too....what are those on the top of cyl? Coolant? Exhaust? IDGAF, I'm going to change them out!  Soonly!

It would appear that I was successful in syncing the carbs inasmuch as one could hope, using this MacGuyver technique.  I definitely sucked in enough ATF that I had to refil my tube a couple times.......I can only imagine that the professional devices have a checkvalve or something to prevent that from happening??  All I know is that even at the point where the choppy waves in each tube seemed to rise equally, the fluid in both tubes still made its way the way to the bike........like, damn, that's some good vacuum!

So after fiddling with that I took her out and noticed some of the power had returned.

So naturally, I went back and HADDD to start messing with something different.  Why, the pilot jets of course!

.......and so, as suddenly as the boner had appeared--it VANISHED!

That's right, I started turning in on the front carb, seemed like 4 or 5 half-turns before it bottomed out.  Then I started backing out, looking for that halfway point, which I thought I may have found.  Then realized the difficult angle of the rear jet, which I remember reading here about some of your long, thin, curved flatheads.  Well, none of the ones I had on hand seemed to fit the bill...I was only able to get about 1 turn-in on it but the angle is just too tough, can't get it to do much more ATM, didn't want to bitch up the slotted head.  I'm just glad the previous owner already yanked out the pilot plugs so I didn't have to!

So, my power is reduced again, though not as badly as it seemed before the adjustments.  But getting up to 50mph isn't easy, and it has the initial burst I need at clutch release, but bogs out in the next instant.  I hope I am nearing the end of the tinkering, so I can put away this scowl and trust my ass getting from Point A to B.

Finally, after all of this and that, I was ready to ride when I found my carb overflow drain leaking again.  I moved the bike back to flat ground + centerstand.  Disconnected overflow tube and confirmed it was coming from the rear.  I twisted back and forth with what little adjustment play was available on that adjuster (seriously not much)............and miraculously the dripping went away before I had to reach for the deadblow hammer.   >:( >:(

Well, I think that was the most of accomplishment for the day.  I can't thank the board collective enough for the wealth of knowledge contained here.  Thanks for the treasure trove, fellas.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2016, 03:36:31 AM by space_suitor »
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§pace_§uitor

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Re: Mechanical Seal/Water Pump Overhaul (**PLEASE ADVISE**)
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2017, 11:33:24 PM »
Welllllll, I started smelling coolant after my last 2 rides.  Sure enough, the weephole has now left a large puddle under the bike.

I can't.  Believe it.   :-X
"I will sit right down
Drifting into my solitude over my head,
Waiting for the gift of sound and vision..."
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§pace_§uitor

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Re: Mechanical Seal/Water Pump Overhaul (**PLEASE ADVISE**)
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2017, 09:42:25 PM »
Well it's true that problems left unattended rarely resolve themselves...

Anybody have some good advise for cleaning an engine suffering from coolant mixed into the oil?

Oh, the humanity!

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fret not

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Re: Mechanical Seal/Water Pump Overhaul (**PLEASE ADVISE**)
« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2017, 01:21:40 AM »
Coolant in the oil is a very dangerous condition that can take out the plane bearings (rods and mains) if left unresolved.  Start by draining everything, then repairing the water pump seals.
Retired, on the downhill slide. . . . . . . . still feels like going uphill!

§pace_§uitor

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Re: Mechanical Seal/Water Pump Overhaul (**PLEASE ADVISE**)
« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2017, 02:39:38 AM »
Fortunately, I know they were not mixing for long, because I just changed the oil last week and the old shit was fine.

However, I had been cranking on it quite a bit to get her running after sitting up a while.  Low battery, etc, etc.  So then the starter started getting hung up progressively worse as the week wore on.  I was using an old rusty kickstand to whack the motor and get her to spin, but eventually even that stopped working and had me stranded at a gas station until the thought of a pop-start occurred to me, and I was able to get her home.

--Oddly enough, while letting the bike cool off there, a passerby actually recognized the bike as a Vision and struck up a conversation and I was impressed.   I took his number as a possibly interested buyer......

So today I prepared to yank the starter and got that nasty surprise in my freshly wiped catch basin.  Totally pissed, I clamped the motor to a portable jumpbox and was surprised to see it spark-n-spin.  So naturally I cracked it open, cleaned the black shit out and greased it up with some fresh red stuff.  When I clamped it up again, it somehow sounded worse than before!    :-X

Well, that is the extent of my progress at the moment.  Looks like I'll be taking the bus for a while.   :-[
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 02:42:45 AM by §pace_§uitor »
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Walt_M.

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Re: Mechanical Seal/Water Pump Overhaul (**PLEASE ADVISE**)
« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2017, 04:55:00 AM »
To start, as fret not said, you may have to replace the water pump seal. Is there coolant coming from the weep hole in the right side case? Second, you have to replace the starter seal. The black gunk in the starter is engine oil. There is an excellent how to in the resources section. You need to decide if you are a motorcycle rider or a bus rider.
Whale oil beef hooked!

§pace_§uitor

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Re: Mechanical Seal/Water Pump Overhaul (**PLEASE ADVISE**)
« Reply #46 on: October 05, 2017, 02:22:38 PM »
Yes, as I noted above in January, my newly replaced seal started leaking after only a few months after my overhaul, but sharing our car with my lady was easier back then, so I didn't need to ride it much.

I also have a 98 Saturn sitting in my garage halfway through an engine rebuild, and there has never been a less-convenient time for the bike to be out of comission.

Well, I'm not too picky on how I get where I'm going....I just want to be able to get back!
"I will sit right down
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Waiting for the gift of sound and vision..."
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§pace_§uitor

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Re: Mechanical Seal/Water Pump Overhaul (**PLEASE ADVISE**)
« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2017, 05:31:42 PM »
Disassembled the right side crank case and got into the waterpump deal.

I cleaned up all the surfaces really well, applied YamBond#4 to my new seal and drove it in with a large socket.  I do believe it to be firmly seated because I whacked it pretty good several times and I can see the slight impression of a ringed divot around the lip.

Replaced the porcelain/rubber seal on the impeller.

Installed the oil seal and the bearing on top of it.

Nevertheless I am once again I am having trouble getting the impeller shaft to expose the second groove so I can clip it behind the bearing.

I'm sort of uncertain if the oil seal should be seated closer to the mechanical seal or closer to the bearing.......there seems to be some extra space inside there, or perhaps I simply haven't got the mechanical seal seated fully.  I just need about a millimeter!

Dammit, this shit was supposed to slap right back together!   :'(



"I will sit right down
Drifting into my solitude over my head,
Waiting for the gift of sound and vision..."
-D. Bowie

§pace_§uitor

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Re: Mechanical Seal/Water Pump Overhaul (**PLEASE ADVISE**)
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2017, 12:14:56 PM »
I tried posting some photos, but my phone takes 'em too big for this site to handle without resizing, so that is a P.I.T.A.

I took a closer look at the cross sectional diagrams in my Workbook, which is more detailed than the Haynes instructio  Everything looks great, I can see where the gaps are supposed to be.  I can see that the bearing is supposed to protrude slightly from the casing.......  Everything appears to be seated and situated as it should be, and yet I still need about 1 or 2 mm of exposure on that impeller shaft to get the clip groove to appear.

The impeller head is developing a small crack and I'm afraid I'll break something if I tap any harder!   HELP!   SUMBUDY CALL THE WAAAAAMBULANCE!   :police:  :'(
"I will sit right down
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Waiting for the gift of sound and vision..."
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Walt_M.

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Re: Mechanical Seal/Water Pump Overhaul (**PLEASE ADVISE**)
« Reply #49 on: November 02, 2017, 04:34:31 AM »
Um, I looked at an old case I have and the bearing does not protrude from the case. Sounds like you need to have a closer look.
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Rikugun

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Re: Mechanical Seal/Water Pump Overhaul (**PLEASE ADVISE**)
« Reply #50 on: November 02, 2017, 01:27:44 PM »
I'm not sure I'd describe the mechanical seal replacement as something that "was supposed to slap right back together!"  There is a certain level of care and precision that is required with some of the delicate parts. You described deformation of the oil seal and a crack in the impeller which concerns me. I'm questioning whether this repair will last or work at all without some new parts.

Did you replace the bearing and if so does it match the old one? For that matter, does the oil seal match the old one? I think I see (in the manual) where the bearing is shown to stick out a bit. The drawing may not be 100% accurate. If Walt's example shows a flush installation and yours protrudes a bit I'd question if the bearing is correct or installed correctly.

It's difficult to really help without pictures. Even if you are unable to upload any, did you take any of the initial tear-down you could compare with the rebuild?

Edit: Regarding your question about space between the seals...  I don't have the parts in my hand to examine but I think the bearing seats on a ledge and the oil seal installs right up to the bearing. The mechanical water seal may have a lip that it should be press fit to. Some space should be left between the seals and neither seal should obstruct the bypass hole.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 01:47:53 PM by Rikugun »
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Walt_M.

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Re: Mechanical Seal/Water Pump Overhaul (**PLEASE ADVISE**)
« Reply #51 on: November 02, 2017, 04:03:56 PM »
Okay, I looked again and the bearing does protrude about a mms. I got some pics and will try to attach. It is attached but upside down
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 04:05:54 PM by Walt_M. »
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jefferson

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Re: Mechanical Seal/Water Pump Overhaul (**PLEASE ADVISE**)
« Reply #52 on: November 02, 2017, 04:06:54 PM »
The one thing I can think of that might help is that bearing may be proprietary to Yamaha. I don't know if you got the bearing from Yamaha or a bearing house. If it was the latter then the numbers can match up, but there can be dimensional differences that will preclude it working. I ran into this working on a crank and it was the width that was different which is what your problem is.

§pace_§uitor

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Re: Mechanical Seal/Water Pump Overhaul (**PLEASE ADVISE**)
« Reply #53 on: November 02, 2017, 08:01:25 PM »
Thanks guys.

This is the third time I've poked around inside here with these parts, so I am moderately familiar.  I bought all new parts including bearing last time.  This time I replaced everything except the bearing.  Everything was identical except for proprietaty number stampings.  Based on your verifications, my conceptualization about placement is correct, and it should be good as gold.



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Rikugun

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Re: Mechanical Seal/Water Pump Overhaul (**PLEASE ADVISE**)
« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2017, 09:46:50 AM »
Thanks for the update and pictures Walt and Spaceman. I do hate when the manual doesn't reflect reality!

This is perplexing for sure.  Although you've stated all replaced parts were identical, I have to question that simply because things aren't fitting properly. If it's not that, then assembly of the parts isn't quite right. Admittedly, I'm biased to an Occam's razor kind of simple over complex resolution.  :)

Jefferson brings up a good point about the bearing. Did you measure the new and old bearing or did they just look the same? I noticed some part numbers have changed over time and fit newer models. Is it possible some part (either through oversight or manufacturing blunder) has been altered? This applies to the mechanical seal as well which has a superseded number.

I think the mechanical seal is in a couple of parts? Does the fit of the slipper ring/rubber seal fit the back of the impeller the same? Does it protrude further than the original? What about the part that presses into the side cover - does that have a spring in it? Does it coil bind when compressed not allowing the shaft in sufficiently far to reveal the circlip groove?

You mentioned having this cover off three times. When did the circlip groove issue arise and what was done prior to that? Let me stress I'm not asking annoyingly simplistic questions to annoy but it seems like it may be something simple. Do you have a friend who is also mechanically minded? A fresh pair of eyes can sometimes make all the difference. Let us know what you find.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 11:12:07 AM by Rikugun »
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§pace_§uitor

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Re: Mechanical Seal/Water Pump Overhaul (**PLEASE ADVISE**)
« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2017, 01:31:17 PM »
I neeeeeeeed the help and eyes.  The simple questions aren't a problem, the situation just doesn't make any sense.

All my parts were identical, and the bearing should still fit because it was a new replacement last time and it went together last time and fit/worked at the time of disassembly.

Impeller seal sits flat and seated properly.  It is new and identical.  Like I mentioned, I can see a crack forming in the plastic head but it doesn't appear damaged.

I bought an extra oil seal because the water seal did NOT mention it would be included with the kit in eBay description, but it was so now I have two.  Both seals have the same dimensions with slight variation on the casting.

The mechanical seal looked like all the others I have had.  It had a blue stripe around it, the purpose of which I am uncertain.  Outside a manufacture defect in the item height, the only other idea i have is that it deformed the center slightly when I used a socket to install......and yet, I have my doubt about this also.

Ffffffffff.....
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 01:35:05 PM by §pace_§uitor »
"I will sit right down
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§pace_§uitor

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Re: Mechanical Seal/Water Pump Overhaul (**PLEASE ADVISE**)
« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2017, 05:27:59 PM »
I attempted re-assembly without the impeller seal, and the shaft poked through to the precise height needed.

I had a closer look at the cracked head and while it doesn't necessarily look damning, it is obviously not a favorable condition.  I chucked it up in the drill and my quick test on lateral runout yeilded inconclusive results.

Well, I wouldn't have been whacking on it if it hadn't seemed necessary!   :o
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§pace_§uitor

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Re: Mechanical Seal/Water Pump Overhaul (**PLEASE ADVISE**)
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2017, 11:09:51 PM »
Cracked impeller.......can't tell if it's got a wobble or not but I am stymied beyond belief so I'm going to order a new one and hope for the best.  They're going for $10-15 on Ebay.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 11:11:25 PM by §pace_§uitor »
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Re: Mechanical Seal/Water Pump Overhaul (**PLEASE ADVISE**)
« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2017, 05:28:50 AM »
All my impellers are cracked in the same way - with no ill effects so far.


When the impeller seal is in it should be dead flush with the bottom of the impeller.


If you don't have the special tool and a hydraulic press, you can use a couple of washers, a socket as a spacer and a thin bolt to wind it in - similar to the process for the swing arm bearings.


Give both ceramic surfaces a clean with some solvent if you got any grease or grit on them, then some lube with a little coolant.  Once in position you have to push quite seriously hard on the impeller against the force of the spring to make it come through enough to get the clip on.  It's the spring that forces the two ceramic surfaces together to form the seal.


The blue stuff is built-in sealing compound.

§pace_§uitor

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Re: Mechanical Seal/Water Pump Overhaul (**PLEASE ADVISE**)
« Reply #59 on: November 09, 2017, 07:51:32 AM »
Yes, I thought and hoped the blue stuff was a sealant...i just find it odd that the book doesn't mention it, and many stock photos of the part don't show it.

However, For the sake of being being thorough I would like to  confirm that the blue surface and (perhaps the adjoining lip?) is where the Yamabond #4 should be applied?  I wasn't able to observe the last guy as he did it, but super bummed that the seal didn't hold.  Maybe shoulda wiped it with acetone.  Maybe he was stingy with the glue, eh?    :o

Maybe I'll scrap the whole thing and source one that's still put together, because at a certain point it ain't worth the heartache, y'know?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 07:55:01 AM by §pace_§uitor »
"I will sit right down
Drifting into my solitude over my head,
Waiting for the gift of sound and vision..."
-D. Bowie