This one goes to eleven

[Rikugun]

There are more than a few discussions on the forum regarding brake upgrades for the twin disk models. They usually center around creating from scratch or modifying available adaptor plates to fit multi-piston calipers in lieu of the stock units. Although the same thing can be done to the single disk XZ, it is less often discussed. This seems odd as there are (at least in the US) probably more single disk XZ's on the road than twin disk '83's. Maybe it's just not as sexy?

Last summer I modified my '82 Silver Vision's single disk setup and I thought I'd share my results with (what's left of) the forum. There's been discussions on master-to-caliper piston ratios so I won't get into all that. I also wouldn't recommend anyone do what I've done for liability reasons.

What I've done didn't make a radical difference but is noticeably better such that I won't go back to the awful stock setup. Oh, and it's much simpler and cheaper than doing the adaptor plate mod. What I did was swap the stock 1/2" bore master cylinder for a 11mm unit. It was used, cheap, and has some finish flaws making it blend with the vintage look of the bike. It was from a mid 2000's bike with low miles and worked right out of the box - after filling and bleeding the system obviously. The outlet position is different but it worked with the SS line I already had. Being newer, it uses a micro-switch for the brake light so some soldering was required on new connectors. Other than that it is a bolt on procedure.

The lever is straight rather than a dog-leg like the OEM so a bit of travel was lost. I ended up bending the lever slightly to match what I had.  The 11mm piston requires more travel to move the same amount of fluid as the OEM master so I was concerned. There is more travel to move the pads out to the rotor but this I've come to accept as part of the dynamic. The very rigid "wooden" lever of the stock setup had little power so what good is it? This gives you all the power the disk, pads and caliper have to offer with less effort. Normal riding I'm generally using 2 fingers now to slow or stop. The stock setup I used all four with much effort and never a satisfying feeling of deceleration.

[The Prophet of Doom]

Nice post Rikugun.  What's that thing sticking out from your throttle?

[fiat-doctor]

Nice Work...  glad it works well.  My 83 with the stock twin disk setup was not very inspiring....  stainless lines helped a lot.  I wish I had tried an 82 M/C with it's smaller bore before I put larger disks and twin piston calipers on it.  Might have made enough difference with a lot less work. 
Steve

[Walt_M.]

That is good info. As an '83 owner, I will comment on my dual disk. The '83 dual disk is the same brake as used on the '84 and '85 RZ350, one of which I also own. This bike is about a hundred pounds lighter than the Vision and the brake is also inadequate. My RZ came with aftermarket kevlar brake lines, and unknown master cylinder and a very wooden feel at the lever. Stopping was okay but I wanted better. I found through the RZ forum that certain Nissin 4 piston calipers would fit directly on later model RZ forks. So I got a set of calipers and the fork legs and now my RZ has what I consider excellent brakes. This is of no use to a Vision owner unless he has an '83, or a worldwide dual disk model. I went the adapter route and put 4 piston gold spot calipers on mine. I kept the standard master cylinder and braided stainless lines I had earlier installed. My brake went from wooden and inadequate to a strong brake with much better feel at the lever. I am not really a fan of the adapter plates as I had clearance issues and had to modify them to fit but they are working now.
I saw another thread some time ago where someone used an adapter for a single disk and he was happy with it too. It is good that there are several options to make better front brakes and good for us to share our results.

[Rikugun]

What's that thing sticking out from your throttle?

It's an adjustable throttle lock. The one pictured below is the first I had and relies on it's inherent "springiness" to grip and overcome the return spring. The new one has a knurled knob that adjusts it's clamping force making it more versatile when using it on multiple bikes. Bikes with two throttle cables for instance often have a heavier return spring which may overpower the clamp's grip. Certain grip material is more slippery than others too. You can see a silicone band around the grip which helped the old one grip better and I left it in place with this one.

[Rikugun]

... My 83 with the stock twin disk setup was not very inspiring....  I wish I had tried an 82 M/C with it's smaller bore before I put larger disks and twin piston calipers on it.  Might have made enough difference with a lot less work.  Steve

Good point Steve - I wondered if anyone would put that together. I've had discussions with a few Visionaries regarding this. Since studying brake ratios more I thought the '82 M/C might be overkill with a 17.9 ratio if my spreadsheet formulas are correct. I've thought a good compromise might be a 14mm unit off say certain year Triumph Tiger 800's or the like. This would bring the ratio to a very respectable 14.7. Not that I would ever recommend performing such a swap.  ;)

[Rikugun]

.... The '83 dual disk is the same brake as used on the '84 and '85 RZ350, one of which I also own. This bike is about a hundred pounds lighter than the Vision and the brake is also inadequate. 

Walt, I've never ridden a dual disk XZ but based on the ratios alone, I doubt I'd be impressed so I understand your point.

I saw another thread some time ago where someone used an adapter for a single disk and he was happy with it too. It is good that there are several options to make better front brakes and good for us to share our results.

That may have been me. I used a common Tokico 2 pot caliper & FJR 1300 rotor (pic below) with the stock 1/2" M/C on my Black '82 and realized an improvement. Unfortunately, the combined area of those 2 small M/C pistons only brought the ratio up to 11.2 from 9. I'd like to be in the 14's. For reference, the stock XZ dual disk is 11.5 and my current single disk setup w/11mm M/C is 11.9.

Obviously 1 vs. 2 rotor (and diameter), pad material and size, swept area etc. are important but the hydraulic ratio seems to be a reasonably accurate predictor of lever feel and relative braking power.

[fiat-doctor]

That caliper looks a lot my SV650 units that I have (almost on) my 83 with R1 rotors. 

Lots of room for improvement over the original items....  the brake hoses are listed in the owners manual as needing replacement every 4 years...  pretty sure they are past their "best by" date now....

Had early Honda's with the first generation of disk brakes....  makes the stock Vision look pretty good :)

[Rikugun]

That caliper looks a lot my SV650 units that I have (almost on) my 83 with R1 rotors. 

It is. I bought a set thinking one day I'd acquire a dual disk fork but it never happened.

[QBS]

I rode my '83 V for many years with the stock set up and was never really happy with the feel (spongy) or stopping power.  Eventually I replaced the stock three line  setup with two stainless lines that I bought from Fiat doc.  I ran a line directly from the stock MC to each stock caliper as I had seen done on some race bikes.  The pads were left unchanged.

The result was no sponginess at all.  My feeling at the time was that the bike had acquired power brakes.  The braking power was much easier to access and to modulate.  The feedback was much more direct.  Logically, I know that the braking power of the system was unchanged, however, access to that power was much more linear and easier to control, especially at point of lockup.  For me, this translated into a feeling of confidence in a much more powerful braking system that,  for my riding style, is certainly adequate. 

The stock setup was dangerous in that I couldn't tell how really deep I was into the systems' capabilities or how deep those resources went.  Now I know those things and can exploit them fully and safely.  I can only conclude that bike manufactures'  specifying non stainless lines are irresponsible in the interest of relatively minor cost savings.  The same thing goes for automobile manufacturers.

[The Prophet of Doom]

The stock setup was dangerous in that I couldn't tell how really deep I was into the systems' capabilities or how deep those resources went.  Now I know those things and can exploit them fully and safely.  I can only conclude that bike manufactures' that specify non stainless lines are irresponsible in the interest of relatively minor cost savings.  The same thing goes for automobile manufacturers.

I was riding a brand new demonstrator VStrom a few years back.  The brake lines were rubber and you could see them bulge when you pulled the lever.  Dealer said it was a safety feature so if you grabbed a handful of brake you wouldn't skid and fall off.



I have the twin setup on my V and moving to stainless lines (3 piece) was like a whole new setup.  A huge improvement. Latest incarnation is ss lines, full rebuild master and calipers, EBC high performance rotors and brembo ceramic pads.  I'm hoping for good things.

[Rikugun]

                                                         **UPDATE**

It's official - I now have the best braking single disk Vision in all of North America. Well, at least on my street.

Emboldened by how well the 11mm MC worked with the stock caliper, I switched to a large rotor and 2 piston Tokico similar to my Black Vision. On that one I used the OEM 1/2" MC and the performance was OK but not great.

The larger piston area of 2 pot Tokico mated with the 11mm MC makes for a very powerful hydraulic advantage. Of the various combinations of components I've tried thus far, this is the most satisfying. The forks can be compressed handily with moderate effort of just two fingers on the lever. The increased lever travel gives lots of feedback and is very progressive. Relative to the stock setup this is a major improvement for a single disk XZ. The difference is quite impressive. If the bike weighed a couple of hundred pounds less it would do stoppies.

I would have posted sooner but had some alignment issues with my adaptor and the Tokico's caliper holder that had to be addressed. Then the weather didn't cooperate.  You can see from the pics I haven't smoothed or painted it yet. Now that it's successfully tested I'll get to it.

[Rikugun]

As if that news wasn't exciting enough, there's more. Yup, hard to believe but true. What project would be complete without some bling? I found this brand new shiny adjustable lever to go with my brake upgrade. It apparently fits various older Honda sport bikes. Yeah, it's a cheap pattern part made entirely of chineseum but appears to be well made. This lever is comprised of no fewer than 7 parts in 3 types of metal. There are castings, machined parts, some plating and polishing and a bit of hand assembly. And all for $6.90 US. How do they do it?

I had to reduce one dimension by maybe .030" but otherwise it's a bolt on part. Like the master's stock lever (on top) it doesn't match the black clutch lever but I can live with it. It works well and I'm pleased with it. Finished the project off nicely.

[The Prophet of Doom]

That's pretty cool, and a great price.  Unfortunately that represents millions of people working 12hrs a day, 7 days a week for 50c to $3 an hour, as well of millions of western workers on unemployment because their industries have collapsed.  It's all your fault Rikugun.


You could always strip the black off the left hand lever and give it a polish.

[Rikugun]

That's pretty cool, and a great price.  Unfortunately that represents millions of people working 12hrs a day, 7 days a week for 50c to $3 an hour, as well of millions of western workers on unemployment because their industries have collapsed.  It's all your fault Rikugun.
Sadly you are right. When I began the globalization movement I never imagined it would take. Nothing to do now but reap the rewards, eh?

You could always strip the black off the left hand lever and give it a polish.
   Or, put more food on their table by purchasing a matching polished aluminum clutch blade.

Not to get too political but in all seriousness my comment of wondering how they do it is a bit cheeky - I know exactly how it's done. Here in the land o' the free one is hard pressed finding domestically produced product. I recently read the back of the McCormick garlic powder container from the kitchen. It proudly states:
PACKED IN USA
PRODUCT OF CHINA

I can remember feeling guilty going into Harbor Freight even knowing US power/hand tool production had been gutted by the Japanese decades before. Currently it's China and after them it will be the next emerging market.