Lots of questions. Carbs, filters, stators UPDATE

[DancinOn1Wheel]

Ok, so im starting the restoration process of my 82 vision. a few things i need to figure out though...

i am planning on cleaning out the carbs, however, i have never really dug into carbs before and am afraid that i may not get them all back together properly. is there a quick easy way to clean the carbs out a little... they worked okon the bike bu there was a good amount of suging in the power delivery. is there anything i can run through them that will help clear at least some of this up without having to risk pulling them apart and not getting them back together properly? and how hard are they to sync?

secondly, i want to nix the airbox and go with 2 cone filters instead. The bike is going to have an nice paint job done to it and would like some other details that look better then stock crap. my problem is that i dont really have any way to measure the OD of the carb inlets to know what size filter needs to go on there (yeah, i could go and buy a ruler i supose, but im at work and figured i would throw this question in) so i need to know what size filter i need to get whiloe im sitting here looking on ebay.

thirdly, i am trying to replace the stator which i have tested to be bad. i got the engine cover off no problems, however, i cannot get the 3 screws for the stator and several others out for the wiring.. is there a trick to removing these without breaking anything? i have not stripped any of them yet, however i am afraid that i might if i continue to try like i have... if this does happen, how do i remove a stripped one?

any input on this would be fantastic.

OH, and when going to the cone filters ( i dont remember if there were any) but how would i deal with the vacume lines that would otherwise go into the airbox? would i just tap some lines into the filter s and then attach the vacume lines to those?

and lastly... wut kind of tires is everyone running on thier visions? I am desperately in need of new rubber and thaught i would get opinions of good tires (well mid grade at least, i kinda low on funds) and wut kind of money are the tires and where to buy them. I do ride rather agressively so i would need something that has decent traction, but that im not gonna completely destroy in 2000 miles.

so to recap and clarify:

1. easy way to clean carbs without tearing down?
    1a. re-synching the carbs, how-to or any resourses to find this out?

2. Outside Diameter of the carbs to know what size cone filters to buy?
    2a. what do i do about vacume lines that would otherwise go inot the airbox?

3. how to remove the stuck screws on the stator without damaging anything else?
    3a. how ro remove screws from stator after they havebeen stripped?

4. wut kinda tires and wut kinda money and where to buy them?

again thanks in advance for any answers to my questions.

P.S. i did a search but to no avail. i did find a little tire info but nothing that really helped.

- Justin

[Superfly]

Hey Justin.  

1.  I being a moderate wrench, have been able to completely dis-assemble the carbs & put them back together with no problem.  best piece of advice... Do one at a time.  The front and rear have different jettings and you do not want to mix them up.  

2.  The air box has been a huge discussion on the forum, (check the old posts)  You might want to keep it.... It is a big part of the carb system.

3.  Impact screwdriver.  I just pulled them 3 bad boys off, and would not try it without it.

4.  The guys on the forum are partial to Avon tires,  I put a Dunlop on the rear, I only had about 300 miles on it before I crashed the bike, but the tire split.... but it seemed nice untill then.  The dunlop I had was a 130 (I know most of the guys here prefer 120's, but the 130 was nice and fat!!) and the bike handeled very well with the 130 on it.  

[h2olawyer]

Dancin' -

1. ?A complete carb tear down, dip & rebuild will be the best way to get your carbs clean. ?There are some folks here who have used carb cleaner spray with mixed results. ?Since I've never done it, I'll leave that explanation to those who have done it.

2. ?Stick with the stock airbox. ?The stock airbox is really the best way to go on these bikes. ?The restriction of the airbox is needed to cut down the air volume at lower RPMs. ?A stock airbox with the vacuum actuated flapper door, all working properly will give you all the performance you are looking for. ?You can get a UNI filter from Dennis Kirk if you want a higher performance, reusable filter. ?Going to cone filters & removing the airbox will require figuring out new jetting & still probably not getting it running right.

3. ?To remove the stator, you need to use an impact driver. ?The screws are set with thread locker & are made from fairly soft material. ?You can get an impact driver at Harbor Freight tools for about $5.00. ?If you have already stripped out the heads of any screws, you can use vice grips or - like I had to do on one screw - cut a slot for a straight screwdriver with a dremel tool and use the impact driver with a straight bit. ?For better details, check out //www.xz550.com.

4. ?Several people here are running Avon Super Venoms, others have Bridgestone Battleax (nonradials!) ?My next tires - likely this summer - will be the Avons. ?They are available from Discount Motorcycle Tire. ?http://www.dmtaonline.com/items.asp?CartId={A14413A9-8A27EVEREST-4592-9F79-D9F1046ABDA4}&Cc=AVONAM20AM18&iTpStatus=0&Tp=&Bc=

As for tire sizes - go with a 100/90/18 front (stock size on the 83's) and I actually prefer the 110/90/18 on the rear.  I have a 120 on it now & the handling seems a little slower.  Also, somebody said Avon doesn't recommend the 120 on the narrow Vision rims.  Putting a too wide tire on a narrow rim changes the tire's profile, normally to the detriment of handling characteristics.

Hope this info helps.

H2O

[Lucky]

you can use a can of "Berrymans B-12 fuel injector cleaner". one per full tank of gas. repeat if needed on the next tank. you should show some improvement if the bogging is caused by a clogged carb.
NOTE: do NOT use berrymans if your tank has any kind of a vynal coating like "KREEM" you'll destroy the coating & permanantly clogg the carbs. (unless you WANT to buy a carb from me..lol)

Be sure your YICS hoses are in good shape & the box doesn't leak (see my site, Vision resources at www.xz550.com for details)

install an inline fuel filter if you haven't already done so.

synq & set the pilot screws. most likely the source of your bogging. ?buy a mercury manometer, about $45 from the bike shop & follow the directions. you'll be happy with the results. ?please be careful with the mercury, one drop can contaminate a whole water supply. (the stufrf should be illegal)

don't wast your time on cone filters, you'll never get it set up right, & it's not worth the frustration. ?use the uni foam filter. it's a good deal and cleans the air well. ?no-one would see the cone filters anyway once the tank is back on...

I like my Metzlers, I had Battlax'es before, & they were ok, these are much better.

impact driver is the only reliable way to get the stator screws out. replace them with the same size hex bolts with a hardness rating of at least 8.5. if you ever have to pull them again you'll be glad you did. relocate the R/R to the left passenger footpeg bracket & solder all the connections on the R/R & you may never have to worry about replacing them again.

--Lucky

[DancinOn1Wheel]

as an amendment to the stator question....

what are the chances of the voltage regulator going out due to the stator failure?

what is an easy way to test it shy of just putting in a new stator and hope it works?

- Justin

[h2olawyer]

Stator & regulator / rectifier (R/R) condition can both be tested by following the Electrex fault finding flowchart here: http://www.electrexusa.com/electrex_fault_finding.html  You will need to download the pdf file @ lower right of page.

You also need a decent digital volt meter with diode test capability.  If you don't have one, Radio Shack sells them for good prices.

When my stator fried, I replaced the R/R at the same time.  The old one tested OK but I decided I would like to have a spare - just in case.

H2O

[QBS]

Another way to use Berrymans Chemtool #12 is to buy it in the non aerosol can.  Then disconnect the carbs fuel lines from the carbs.  Then drain the carb float bowls.  Next, close the bowl drain screws and, using the syringe of your choice, fill the carbs with pure Berrymans.  Let the carbs soak like this for two days and drain out the Berrymans.  Just for fun make a comparison between the color of clean Berrymans and the drained Berrymans.  Next connect all the fuel lines and fill the carbs using the petcock "Prime" position.  Start engine and evaluate improvements (if any).

I have performed this procedure as preventative maintenance on my carbs several times with no obvious damage to rubber et.al.  I do not guarentee it will render your carbs squeekey clean or will solve any or all of your carb related issues.  I do feel that its' about as much as you can do to clean your carbs with taking anything apart.

Cheers.

[Rick G]

I can't stress strongly enough to leave the air box on and functioning . The early 82's had  a spring loaded version that was soon replaced by the vacuum version. You won't believe the headaches you will create  by doing away with the air box. it is not worth it!!

[DancinOn1Wheel]

ok... well got a lot of good answers. im glad that i asked about the filter thing b4 doing it.... i wwas just thinking that more air would be beneficial, i didnt realize that they were that picky though so i think i will definately keep the airbox then.

as far as cleaning the carbs out, i like the idea of using the syringe (sp?) and filling the carbs that way... i think i will use a combo of the techniques you guys listed off and see wut i come up up... im just really trying to avoid tearing them down eventhough i know thats probably what really needs to be done... thanks a shitload for the input and i will keep everyone updated on how it all works out.

then once i get the bike mechanically sound, i will be doing a nice custom paint scheme. any input on what i should do? i was thinking keeping it close to the factory paint scheme but adding a little flair to it.

anyway, thanks a bunch again for the input on the airbox, carbs and stator and tires too... i was looking at ther avons and they seem fairly reasonable on price... rear tire size is still undecided though as i have heard mixed reviews as far as a wider rear is concerned... i guess i will just have to experiment.

thanks again

- Justin

[MotorPlow]

I get my tires from //www.swmototires.com
Free shipping when you order 2 tires and they are at your door in 3 days.  You might have to email them to get the correct Vision tire size as they only list the most popular sizes on their web site.  The web site doesn't look like much, but their customer service is second to none.

~Chris F.

[DancinOn1Wheel]

I get my tires from //www.swmototires.com
Free shipping when you order 2 tires and they are at your door in 3 days.  You might have to email them to get the correct Vision tire size as they only list the most popular sizes on their web site.  The web site doesn't look like much, but their customer service is second to none.

~Chris F.

thier website doesnt look like much.... actually thier website doesnt even come up for me, i tried clicking the link, copy/paste, ect. and nothing. i get "The connection was frefused by the server" error

- Justin

[MotorPlow]

Ha,
It doesn't work for me now either.  When I posted it, I opened the webpage to make sure I had the right URL and then cut & pasted into the post.  I just checked my bookmarks and that is the right URL.  I will have to dig out an old invoice to get their phone number....

Chris F.

[Josh M]

Dancin, I was also scared of the whole carb situation when I got into motorcycle maitenance.  Once you take everything apart and look at what's involved it's really not that bad.  Jets screw in until they seat, most linkages can be removed without affecting their adjustment, and air/fuel screws(depending on the carbs) can be checkedfor adjustment by screwing them in while counting the number of turns, and then taking notes.  
   On a painting note, my tank is getting airbrushed this winter.  I'm getting $50 brushed on it, because that is waht I paid for this bike 4 years ago, and haven't really had to put any more money into it.  It was the best 50 bucks I ever spent.

[DancinOn1Wheel]

ok, so i finally got off my ass and tore into the carbs... with some mixed results...

i tried the "injection" method for the carbs with the B-12, and that seemed to work really good. I had the carbs off the bike so it was really easy. i ran like half a little can of that stuff through the carbs. It went in clear and came out looking like pepsi. also, after i filled the carbs, i was opening and closing the butterflys to clear out the pilot jets? in there. when i started, both just kinda dribbled. when i was done, both were shooting perfect streams out. also i learned that hooking a little bit of hose to the fuel inlet on the carbs, filling them with the B-12 and gently blowing in them will force liquid through the main jets, which were kinda the same way. dribbled at first, but later were flowing freely.

i may have also learned that the reason my bike was running like shit was because the rear cyl. carb, the jet was about to fall out and was not seated. the screw and backed its way out and the jet actually pulled out when i played with it before cleaning the carbs.

of course, not knowing what was holding them in at first, i was freakin out thinking i broke off a jet, so natuarlly i completely rip apart the carbs (not having read my service manual first) to accidentally find out that all i had to do was get the jet aligned and tighten the screw.

good thing, however, that i pulled the carbs apart, cuz even after cleaning them with the above mentioned method, i learned how to partially take them apart, so i took the tops off again and the bowls were still nice and brown, so a little bit more berrymans and a small paintbrush and my carbs are squeeky clean inside and all the jets are flowing freely and smoothly.

hopefully this will make the big difference and work out. Next task is to get that pesky stator replaced. i got ahold of a Impact screw driver and that worked like a champ, except on 2 screws to remove the metal cover for the coil pickups. Im going to try again tonite to get those out as i want to polish up the engine cover....

I will keep everyone updated on the situation and wanted to thank everyone for all the good replys. you all helped a shitload!

- Justin

[Lucky]

A note of forewarning Dancin:
Vision carbs are very susceptible to any dirt in the carbs at all. there are passages deep inside the carb that are only a few hundreths of an inch in diameter.

I have rebuilt dozens of vision carbs, that is completely stripping them down and dipping them.  it is not unheard of to have to do it twice...  typicly after dipping the carbs and flushing them out, and having them back on the bike & running for a week or so, particals of crud will break loose from the inside passages and cause another clogg.

If you had crud in the bowls then it's doubtful just flushing the carbs got everything out.  injecting the Berrymans, as QBS reccomends is most effective on known clean carbs, that might have a stray piece of something in them, or as routine maintenance.

Certainly they are cleaner than they were when you started, an I applaud your work, I just want you to realize that if, when you get them back on, they don't run as expected, you may have to dig deeper.

I'm also a little concerned about your pilot screws (just above where the carbs fit into the intakes on the lower left hand side)  some of your termanology is a little off (you call the accelerator nozzles pilot jets) and if you tightened the pilot screws, thinking they were loose jets, you may have dammaged them... the pilots are a very precise adjustment, and should never be tightened any more than lightly seated, and that's only to count the turns in so that you can record the settings..

We want you tobe sucsessful and enjoy this bike, so read the manual on any procedure before you do it, and ask us any questions you might have, no matter how silly they may seem.  that's why we are here.

One other thing, I'm putting together a DVD Video series on mainenance procedures specific to the Vision, and the first one is on carbs. Unfortunatly it isn't quite done yet...

--Lucky

[Lucky]

Almost forgot, you did install a fuel filter too right?

[DancinOn1Wheel]

yeah, i know my terminology is way off.. like i said, i dont really know carbs, so for that i apologize... i know what your talking about... i for the most part know what im talking about, i just dont know the names of everything...

either way, i dont expect the carbs to 100% at all... im just expecting them to be not quite as sketch as they were b4. everything seems to be flowing pretty good so im going hope that solves some of the stumbling...

the other thing is that screw holding in the jet... if that was as loose when the bike was running as it was when i found it (i would imagine it was) then that would explain why it would run good when snapping the throttle, but not when holding consistant throttle. it felt as though the rear was cutting out. if the jet wasnt seated right, then it wasnt getting the fuel to the cylinder... so if all works out, the bike should run decently.

the stator is up next for replacement hopefully tonite if i can get to the salvage yard in time b4 they close... anyone know where i can get a new gasket for the left side stator cover??? ripped em in the removal process... or is there a substitutei can use such as RVT gasket maker or perhaps some gasket material to cut my own??? I would much rather find a real one then attempt to make one, but i also dont want to wait forever.

P.S. Lucky, thanks for the hook up on the manuals..

- Justin

[DancinOn1Wheel]

oh, and i have a filter to put on, but i havent installed the carbs yet... nor is the tank on obviously, but they will be done shortly and yes there is going to be an inline filter...

- Justin

[Lucky]

Good news/bad news
Good news: Yamaha still sells the side cover gasket
Bad news:  They rarely stock it, so expect to wait 5-10 days
Good news?: it's only about $12
Bad news? what are you pulling out of the bone yard? Stator? be sure to test it!

Weird news: --Lucky

[DancinOn1Wheel]

ok, so an update... the bike is back together and running... kinda.
the bike seems to start a hell of a lot easier. The stator is working great and is charging.

problem: the idle surge is still there really bad. When you start the bike, warm or cold, it starts fine and idles great. touch the throttle too much and it dies. well after idleing for a few minutes... it will surge REAL bad. like going from idle to almost 6000 rpm. It will sit there for about 5 seconds, then just die. this is similar to what was happening b4 i took the bike apart, but even since b4 i took it apart, the problem has been getting worse and worse, and it seems its happening VERY fast.

ALSO, the starter is dieing on me. i was thinking maybe it was the oil seal on the starter, but then after removing the starter and visially inspecting, i am seeing no signs of oil leaking... I put the starter back in and the problem still presists. Thinking back to my old cqar starter problem, i had my buddy tap the starter gently with a hammer. Started working right away. Not knowing too much about how motorcycle starters work(obviously they arent the same as car ones), on a car this type of solution to the problem usually means the starter cilynoid (i know my spelling is terrible) is going out... but as far as i could tell there isnt one on the vision starter... at least not on the outside of it.

is this still an isue that is oil related as far as the starter is concerned?

please help. thanks

- Justin