Vision Fuel injection AND spark control all in one

[Blake]

If some of you remember, I've was discussing converting my vision to fuel injection a while back.  There is a popular stand alone EFI control unit called "Megasquirt"  which can be easily (and very accurately) tuned using a computer.  Although I do have this controller now, I've decided to use it on my car instead, as a test run.  This is because the guys who created megasquirt, have come up with a "stripped down" version called microsquirt.  Basically, the megasquirt controller box is about 2"x4"x7" in a simple extruded aluminum case, which would have been quite hard to mount on the vision.  However, this new Microsquirt controller is slightly bigger than the size of a credit card, and best of all, its fully weather-proof and sealed, making it ideal to be mounted on the vision (perhaps in the rear under the seat)

http://www.microsquirt.info/  is the web site for some info.

This was originally supposed to come out this past summer, but then it's been pushed back again and again.  One thing recently has caught my interest.  You see, megasquirt has the ability to control spark, but only on equal-spaced firing (such as car engines).  However, looking at the microsquirt information (what very little there is), it now says that it will have the ability to control an odd-fire ignition (dual spark).  I believe their main intention was for harley-engines, but this is a great thing for the vision engine and our odd fire ignition.  I haven't quite figured how would the vision would relay information to the ignition controller, but im actually thinking it might be able to be easily signaled off of the flywheel using a hall effect sensor.  However, I wont be able to determine the best way until more is learned about the controller itself.  But long story short, with a single control box I'll be able to have both fuel injection and an ignition controller for the vision  ;D 


Just thought I'd share about what I've been doing recently


Blake

[NewVisionGuy]

How does the TCI  know when to fire the plugs?   could you not use that method, whatever it may be?

[Blake]

this box would replace the TCI..essentially letting you determine the spark advance.  but the tci takes signals from two magnets on the flywheel and based on rpm, advances the spark so much.  I was wondering if those same flywheel magnets would work, but i cant determine that yet..if anything, I might have to attach a small 36-toothed wheel to it to trigger the sensor..(really isnt all that hard)

[NewVisionGuy]

Well,  like you said,   there's not much to know about it yet.   Definitely keep us updated though.  Fuel injection would be an awesome upgrade if you could get it to work right.

~Philip

[Blake]

The fuel injection part wouldn't be hard to control at all. plug in an equation, type in some numbers and test...  the hard part even for me is the price :o  not exactly one of your cheaper upgrades..

[NewVisionGuy]

what would we be looking at?  around  $300  or so?

[Blake]

uhh...a LOT more. :o.(they estimate the ecu to be around 400)..add in throttle bodies, injectors, sensors, custom intake, etc...and if you dont do it yourself..even more...lets just say it might easily double the bikes value (just for the EFI part...ignition add a little more...  all the bits and pieces add up...

[YellowJacket!]

Looks like they added a whole boatload of stuff about it tonight.  "site updated 12/02/2006".  Now has installatin instructions etc.
Looks pretty cool.

David

[NewVisionGuy]

Well,  I probably won't be doing an EFI upgrade until  someone proves it  works well, and I'm ready to completely restore my bike.  So... carbs will hafta work  for quite a few years   :)

[Coil Coyle]

add in throttle bodies, injectors, sensors, custom intake, etc...and if you dont do it yourself..even more...lets just say it might easily double the bikes value (just for the EFI part...ignition add a little more...  all the bits and pieces add up...

With three sniped Ebay auctions last winter I spent a total of $147.00 for 2000+ model FZ R1 Throttle Bodies, ECU's, Wiring Harness, Coils and Fuel Pump. I recommend you just start a shopping list for a system you admire, use Auction Stealer to snipe low and loose a few auctions while you wait. My experience is that if one sells high the next just sits, demand is spotty for projects like FI conversions.

          At Amy's our control engineer is a big Megasquirt proponent. He does 4wd Rock Crawling and a lot of the Jap 4wd guys are using this system. They claim excellent drive ability. This new controller looks like what we been waiting on.

$0.02
;)
Coil
   

[Blake]

hey coil,

what's that sniping thing?  I recently heard a few guys talk about something like that.  you put in your bid and it automatically places it for you?  seems pretty good..  but yeah, that's what i'll be doing for the next while, pick and choose the cheap parts off of ebay, definately good deals to be had.  By the way, how's your progress coming along?

[Scott_Mc]

...lets just say it might easily double the bikes value...

So now my bike could be worth..??...400 :P?

Seriously though, sounds like a fantastic upgrade.  ECU's are where it's at for smooth and efficient running.  This upgrade would have to be a thing you "want"(as opposed to "need") and would enjoy for yourself.  You would never get your money back on it IMO.

[Coil Coyle]

hey coil,

what's that sniping thing?  I recently heard a few guys talk about something like that.  you put in your bid and it automatically places it for you?  seems pretty good..  but yeah, that's what i'll be doing for the next while, pick and choose the cheap parts off of ebay, definately good deals to be had.  By the way, how's your progress coming along?

Blake,

www.auctionstealer.com

If you just use it a few times, don't bother to join. I paid monthly for a year while I collected parts and I felt it was a good deal. You can plan a bid and then forget about it. Takes the adrenalin (sp) last minute over bid out of the equation.

;)
Coil

[fiat-doctor]

Sorry to join the conversation so late!!  I build fiat sports cars for customers with Megasquirt.  An incredible system for the price.  I've built 6 Megasquirts in the last two years and have 5 of them set up to control ignition as well.

To answer your question about how the TCI (stock system) knows when to fire the plug....  it's rather simple... no digital items at all.  The trigger is not a magnet... it's just a steel lump on the outside of the flywheel.  The magnet is in the pickup coil.  When the leading edge passes the pickup it generates a positive spike (can view all this with a scope).  When the trailing edge passes it makes an equal voltage in the negative direction.  When the waveform goes from positive to negative, thats when the TCI triggers.  (the tiny items in the TCI perform this function).  It's called a "zero crossing detector".
As the flywheel picks up speed, the voltage increases and the bottom parts of the sine wave grow closer together. (in other words, the negative pulse comes sooner) and the timing advances.

Two more things about the stock ignition...  I've got a dead TCI that I'm "reverse engineering" to duplicate with all new parts.....  shouldn't be a big project but I'm tied up with lots of other things at the moment.
Secondly, I haven't had time to try this but I'm not sure that a couple of $15 GM HEI modules would not replace the tci.  The HEI uses the same type of trigger signal but because the advance is mechanical the trigger is a sharp point on the wheel so the "zero crossing" happens instantly. (the wheel is centrifugally advanced to advance the timing). 

You mention the 36-1 tooth trigger wheel... this is to control a ford EDIS system (from wrecking yard, very cheap and rugged, very high power)  The megasquirt sends the ignition module a simple signal to advance the timing.  This is how I've done most of the cars.
The latest versions of megasquirt software will work with all sorts of simpler triggers and control a different type of ignition system(individual transistors for the two coils) This is how the microsquirt is set up. 

Last of all, I'm not sure there is a lot to be gained (powerwise) from changing the stock timing curve.  I'm going from memory here but as I recall the advance is all in by 3500 rpm or so.  Changing the curve itself would have no effect above this rpm.  I think the main benefit would be a less wimpy spark and reliablilty of new parts and the ability to stabilize idle speed by ignition timing (a very cool feature).

The fuel injection side of it is where the real advantage comes in....  the carbs we have are very large for the size of the motor...  makes for low speed airflow in the carbs at part throttle/low rpm.  It's very difficult to get the carb to meter properly under this situation and probably is the cause of lots of hesitation or poor fuel mileage.  Fuel injection is much more precise and is not dependent on air speed through the throttle body to deliver fuel.  The motors I build will allow you to smack the throttle wide open in gear at idle rpm with no hesitation at all.  Digital fuel injection is truly a wonderful thing. 
A conversion like this is only for someone willing to do the work themselves and source parts from ebay and wrecking yards....  it's quite simple, but would cost a fortune if you paid someone to do it. 

Can you tell I LOVE megasquirt?
Steve

[supervision]

  Hey fiat-doctor, so your saying the steel lump on our flywheel should cause an HEI modual to advance the way our TCI  advances...  I get it's the length of that steel lump and an increase in speed that causes the timing to happen sooner   If GM was using a lump instead of a point their spark time would move too, course they would need larger diameter of a circle to work with  to provide room for this to take place

[supervision]

  On the subject of just hotter spark, are their any automotive coils that you know of that would be compatable with the TCI.  I'm thinking in terms of low cost cause car stuff is usually cheep

[Lucky]

Jason has Dyna coils on his 83, but i don't know which one.


--Lucky














monkey butt

[supervision]

  Yea, I remember him saying that one time.   They probably sell for high dollar.  The right car coil is probably 1/3  the price.   

[Blake]

If you can match up the resistance of the coils it would possibly work, but I'd definitely stick with motorcycle coils to make sure you dont kills your tci.  I had a couple of car coils on my 78 xs650 clamped to the front down tubes.  Defiantly worked good, but that was with points and i didn't care much about how long it lasted.

[fiat-doctor]

Yes, that is what I "think"...  haven't tried it yet, but I suspect it will work...
It's on my to try list this winter...

Steve