Wiring Gremlins!

[Tiffanator]

Ok... so you may have seen my long post over in the general... well this bike has been nothing short of... um... interesting.  The original wiring harness was apparently damaged in a wreck so this is a salvage one from another bike.  I chased down a few problems but things just get more and more interesting.
Here goes:
When I turn the key on the taillight, license plate light, brake light, oil pressure light and neutral light come on. That's all.  Just today I got the horn to work.
I am currently working on the turn signals, and its quite confusing.  Nothing happens when I use the handlebar switch, so I pulled it completely apart and cleaned all of the connections, made sure it was sliding ok and making good contact.  Then I started checking the wires using a set of jump lines from the battery... here's what I get...
Black to Brown/White - right side front and rear.
Black to Chocolate - left side front and rear.
Black to Dark Green - right side front and rear.
Black to Yellow/Red - nothing.

The lights are constant on... not flashing, I'm not too worried about this since I know I'm bypassing the signal relay and sending them constant juice.  I pulled the signal relay out of its casing and it was a rust bucket, the top of the case looks like signs of overheating as the plastic is mishapen.  I'm thinking it may be toast, especially since a spare piece came tumbling out freely.
So I guess my question is why are there two that light up the right side?  From the wiring diagram it looks like the Brown/White should be my hot and it connects with the chocolate for the left side and dark green for the right, the black and yellow/red should cancel the turn signal.
Also... within the last few minutes it seems that my black wire has managed to ground itself out... so now I can have the key off and touch any wire with a positive jump from the battery and light it up.  Time to track down that gremlin.
The above mentioned scenario works on the handlebar as well as the connector in the headlight compartment.

I checked voltage at the turn signal relay, I have 12 volts coming in through the brown wire, and 5-6 volts leaving through the brown/white and 6-7 volts leaving through the yellow/green. The voltage remains the same going into the flasher cancelling unit.   I also have 12 volts coming into the flasher cancelling unit through a brown wire.
I'm not even worried about the headlight right now... I'll get to that after the turn signals.

Thanks
Tiff.

[Night Vision]

is this a test?

I do better on multiple choice







wish I could help.............. sounds like you need an electrician  :o

[Tiffanator]

Hi Night Vision... it is quite a test isn't it?
And... the plot thickens.  Shortly after that post I was going to put the handlebar unit back together, but first wanted to check the headlights... so I got my jumper (positive only since the ground wire was hot) and started checking the headlight, high beam came on... low beam came on... then I happen to peer back and see a thin line of smoke coming from the bundle of wires under the seat.... great... I hurry to pull the battery cable off and let it cool down.  Pulling the wires apart I see that my diode has melted the casing... great.  I cut the melted plastic away from it to expose the bare wire and see what colors wires are running through it.  Now... if I cut the key on with the handlebar switch in the "off" position it is ok, but if I flip it to "run" the little thing starts smoking.  I still hear the click of the starter relay so I'm hoping that isn't bad.  So... with my new problem I grumble a few times, unhook the battery and call it a day.

Is it time to pull the whole wiring harness off, clean it, check every wire, then wrap it back up and put it back on?  Since the people that had the bike before my cousin hooked up the neutral switch wires to the sidestand switch wires I'm wondering if they hooked up something else wrong and I'm getting a short... all of the connectors are dirty as well and I've been cleaning them as I get to them.  However some are hard to get to with the harness on the bike.
Thanks
Tiff

[YellowJacket!]

Removing the wiring harness is not too bad and may be a good idea.  Or...just lok for one thats available on either ebay or "Tigers Parts Emporium" here on the site.  My guess though, since you mentioned how bad one of your relays was, is that all of them are probably bad and contributing to your problem.
Could it be a short somewhere?  Probably.  I would check all the friction points, like by the handlebars and on the frame where the metal tabs fold over and hold the harness in place.

Hang in there. ;D

David

[Coil Coyle]

 Tiff,

"short" = a circuit that connects the positive to the negative without going through a "load". A light bulb or a starter winding are a "load". Electricity is mainly made up of smoke and a "short" lets the smoke out ;D :o :P ::) ;D
"open" = a circuit where the connection is not made from the positive, through the load, to the negative. A light switch in the off position is an "open", so is a wire that breaks or a fuse that blows.

Do you have a print out of the wire diagram yet? Is yours color or B/W?

I'm driving back to Jackson County today and working tonight. Take notes on what you know is correct and get a diagram. I'll spend time on it tonight at work and try and lead you forward from wherever you are when I check in tonight.

It's easy, but one thing at a time..

;)
Coil

[Tiffanator]

Hi coil... thanks for the definitions.  I'm not an electrician.. I know just enought to be dangerous, be it auto or home. I can chase wires, check continuity and voltage and connections all day long, I do not know how to check if I relay is gone or not.  I got to know that "short" very well yesterday... eventually connected a wire to the positive gator grip so I could reach all around the bike and taped them together to cover any metal.  All the stupid thing wanted to do was make nice with the frame.  I found that stripped about a half inch of the end of a wire and giving it a good coating of solder is a good way to make something you can poke in those little holes in the connectors.
I have the diagram open on the laptop while I work, I haul it around the bike and check stuff... I will print it out in color though... maybe blow it up big so I can see it.  I'll highlite what works for sure.
Dave... I thought that maybe I was getting some rubbing where the wires to under the handlebars, so I pulled back the radiator and looked.  The tape is worn off but it looks like the coating all of the wires is ok... but the thing that gets me is that I don't know whats going on under all of that tape and plastic cover.
I'm going to be taking the harness off to paint the frame anyway, just trying to not have to do all of that twice... but lots of the connectors have spider egg sacs in them... yay.
Tiff.

[Tiger]

:) I happen to know that "Tigers Parts Emporium" has a good wiring harness, if you need one... ;)  ;D ;D :D :D :D :D :D

                        8).......TIGER....... 8)

[supervision]

  Tiff, glad you unhooked the batt. in a hurry, we don't want to burn the house down over a free motorbike! My sugestion is to always hook and unhook the Neg, that side never makes a spark.   Let me give you a little explain on relays... first there is the principal call electrol  magnesizim, which means that any time you wrap a coil of insulated wire around metal and the you put current to it it becomes a magnet.. This is used in countless ways on everything!  very simple abunch of wire in a circle with two ends..   Now let's understand a basic need on say the starter, it run's on a pretty big wire right?, I wouldn't be worth a hoot to have to run those big old wires up to the starter button so we use a solenoid to switch it on and off.. The small wires to the bars only have to power-up the magnet and draw the contacts for the big wires inside the solenoid together, then the starter has power!  Same idea for say the cooling fan power, the fan needs to come on automaticly when the temp. sensor says so, butt the temp. sensor is a tiny delicate thing and the fan draws too much current to just run on the  contacts in it, so again we have a solenoid (this time they call it a relay), magnetic switch to do the job.  They are simple! Just a coil of wire that a good one has continuity thur it and a set pair of other posts that have no continuity, unless the magnet coil is energised.. sv

[Coil Coyle]

I am currently working on the turn signals, and its quite confusing.  Nothing happens when I use the handlebar switch, so I pulled it completely apart and cleaned all of the connections, made sure it was sliding ok and making good contact.  Then I started checking the wires using a set of jump lines from the battery... here's what I get...
Black to Brown/White - right side front and rear.
Black to Chocolate - left side front and rear.
Black to Dark Green - right side front and rear.
Black to Yellow/Red - nothing.

ONE: So I guess my question is why are there two that light up the right side? 

TWO: From the wiring diagram it looks like the Brown/White should be my hot and it connects with the chocolate for the left side and dark green for the right,

THREE: the black and yellow/red should cancel the turn signal.


FOUR: Also... within the last few minutes it seems that my black wire has managed to ground itself out...

FIVE: so now I can have the key off and touch any wire with a positive jump from the battery and light it up. 

SIX:Time to track down that gremlin.

SEVEN: The above mentioned scenario works on the handlebar as well as the connector in the headlight compartment.

EIGHT: I have 12 volts coming in through the brown wire,

NINE: 5-6 volts leaving through the brown/white

TEN: 6-7 volts leaving through the yellow/green. The voltage remains the same going into the flasher cancelling unit.   

ELEVEN:12 volts coming into the flasher cancelling unit through a brown wire.

Tiff.

Hi Tiff, I'll try to catch up with ya. I'm using the schematic on the website, it's got the starter circuit highlighted.

First Question; What is the wire that you are calling "Black"?

ONE: If you flipped the switch, the other side would light. You are back feeding the Flasher Relay output contact. Tiff, you gotta stop doing this jumping.

TWO: Correct, except the Brown White is the "switched hot" from the Flasher Relay.

THREE: Backwards, the Yellow Red turns ON the Flasher Relay.

FOUR: The wire you are calling "BLACK" must be connected to the Battery Positive terminal. Tiff, you gotta stop doing that. A lot of the control switching on the Vision happens past the "LOAD" so you should not go around connecting a "Hot" jumper to any thing.

FIVE: Of course. But what does it do to help find the problem?

SIX: You are getting close. Look for a person with a "Hot" wire in their hand :D

SEVEN: Clean it and plug it back in. Really, Tiff,  :-*  stop the "Hot" wire jumping..

EIGHT: Excellent   ::) This shows that your 10Amp ignition fuse circuit and your "Run" switch are good!

NINE: 5-6 Volts between the Battery Negative and the Brown White wire ?

TEN: 6-7 Volts    "           "      "           "          "     the Yellow Green wire?

Nine and Ten depend on if the switch is assembled and what the last thing is that the turn signal switch did.  Leave these for a while and put it together. We'll troubleshoot them after you get it starting, you may have toasted the flasher and Cancelling unit, or not.

ELEVEN: Excellent  ::) this tells you that your 10Amp lighting fuse is good and its circuit is fine.

;)

Coil

[Coil Coyle]

TWELVE: so I got my jumper (positive only since the ground wire was hot)

THHIRTEEN: then I happen to peer back and see a thin line of smoke coming from the bundle of wires under the seat.... great... I hurry to pull the battery cable off and let it cool down. 

FOURTEEN: Pulling the wires apart I see that my diode has melted the casing... great.  I cut the melted plastic away from it to expose the bare wire and see what colors wires are running through it. 

Now... if I cut the key on with the handlebar switch in the "off" position it is ok, but if I flip it to "run" the little thing starts smoking.  I still hear the click of the starter relay so I'm hoping that isn't bad.

Tiff

Tiff,
Question TWELVE. How did you determine that the ground wire was HOT? If you measure voltage between the ground wire and the battery negative post then the post is dirty and the connection between the post and the neg cable is "open" At an open you would see the full battery voltage.

THIRTEEN: The wire to the clutch switch is labeled B/Y, you connected 12VDC positive to the wire that runs to the diode. It conducts that direction but it would normally have a "load" that is the coil in the starter circuit cut off relay. You fed it direct so it acted as a "short" and melted the diode. Get a new one at any electronic supply or Radio shack. You want 30 or more volts and 1/2 amp or more. A diode is a one way valve, any thing that is rated over 12VDC and carry 1/2 amp of load is fine. Make sure the diode case's bar mark faces the neutral switch.
When you connected the 12VDC to the other B/Y wire to the clutch switch you did the same thing to the other diode that is built into
the starter circuit cut off relay. If you can pull it apart you might replace that diode also, or get another relay. Fix both the diodes before you connect the positive battery cable again, pay attention to the bar mark on the diode and make it match the arrowhead pointing at the bar, that is, the diode is marked with the bar that the arrowhead points at in the diagram.

Tip of the Day  8) slow down and do one thing at a time. Chase your voltage with a Positive DC Voltmeter Red, Positive, lead probe while the Negative Volt Meter lead is referenced on the battery negative post and the Negative battery lead is connected to the bikes frame at a clean connection.

Plug in everything that you have apart and check that you have 12VDC on the Red White wire that goes to the Starter Relay.

Tiff, Note that the relay coil is "Hot" all the time and the "start button" connects the circuit to the frame ground. There will also be 12VDC+ on the wire coming out of the Relay UNTIL THE START BUTTON IS PUSHED. The Start Button shoulde be "OPEN" and all 12 Volts should be across it until it is pushed.

Post what you find.

;)
Coil

[Tiffanator]

Ok guys.... sorry for the wild goose chase.  Flasher relay is a goner, I need to replace that and I think all will be good.  I was looking too deep into it. Duh... stupid me.
SV... thanks for the tutorial on relays, that helps me a lot.  I never thought about why the starter switch was there... makes a lot of sense now.  With all of that said... replacing the flasher relay... do I need to go through yamaha to get one? I noticed at the auto parts store they have 3 pin flashers, I just didn't get one cause I'm not sure they are the same... they look very much like the one on the bike.  Will this work?
Coil... thanks... I'll lay off the jumping.  I guess I just wanted to test to be sure the lights worked and the contacts were good on the handlebar switch... and got carried away.  Much more educated and careful now.
Thanks all.
Tiff

[supervision]

  On the automotive flasher, sure try one, buy the cheep one first, cause you may need the heavy duty if it flashers too fast or slow, the other piece called "flasher canceling unit" becarefull with that thing, I have never thought of how it works.   Glad you like the relay lesson     sv

[Coil Coyle]

SV, I think the Vision flasher is a combination of a relay and a flasher. The Flasher Cancelling Unit turns the Relay part of the flasher on.
If you use a two wire auto flasher then the wire from the cancelling unit would not be used. Auto flashers just cycle the power on and off when they are in the light circuit.

;)
Coil

[Lucky]

Tiff, I may have missed it, but how much riding experience do you have? we are allways 'safety first' here. do you have a m/c licence & proper protective gear? I'd hate to see you get your bike back together & be so gung ho to ride that you forget the importaint stuff....

your CD will be going out shortly, thanks!  :)

--Lucky

[supervision]

  Yes coil I new something about that 3rd wire didn't sound right, now I remember cars only have two wires, they start as a closed curcit, and as soon as heat happens in the by-metal, they open up, then cool down and close again.  Thanks for the reminder.  sv

[Tiffanator]

Hey Lucky... can't wait to get my CD! Looks like it basically has everything I'll ever need... with that and this board I should be able to get this bike up and running in no time.
About my riding experience... I have... um... none. Well... I did ride my friends YZ250 once.  But trust me, I will be FULLY outfitted with saftey gear once I actually do ride this bike.  I'm looking for someone with something smaller I can learn on and am also going to see if a motorcycle course is offered in the area.  I have the utmost respect (aka fear) for street bikes and will not ride it if I don't think I'm ready.  My cousin and brother both have experience with bikes so they will be the ones riding it mostly, I'm doing the restore because I like to see something old and abandoned be loved and appreciated again.

Ok... I went to the auto parts store and bought a 3 post flasher, I didn't have time last night to really look into it, but I'm going to do some research today to see if it will work before I tear it out of the package.
Thanks
Tiff

[YellowJacket!]

Well, with the warm spring day today (68 right now in Knoxville) some gremlins decided to come out of hibernation.  I have been having battery issues all winter.  Although I kept my 1 year new battery on a tender, it was accidentally switched to 6 volts and the battery died.  Switched it back and it would never fully charge up, usually to 8 or 9 volts.  Pulled the battery the other day and two of the cells were completely dry so I added some distilled water but it would not charge up.  Then added some acid from a battery restoration kit from my battery's manufacturer and it would charge up fine but would immediately die down and not have enough juice to crank the bike.
Well, guess what.... my stator wires are melted at the plug, yes, the plug that looked sooo good when I restored the bike that I just couldn't bear to cut out and solder.  Well, ya live and ya learn.  I'm guessing that it is shorted to ground and that is what is killing my battery, so I'm going to cut and solder shortly.  I'll probably go get another battery too because I feel like it was overly abused by draining down and filling back up.
So the moral of this story is that if 9 out of 10 Vision owners recomend cutting and soldering, follow their advice.  I think I'm #10 now.  ;D

David

[h2olawyer]

Bummer.   :P

I'm still keeping the connector.  I check it regularly & keep the contacts clean & covered with dielectric grease.  If you feel better soldering the connection, go for it.  Probably helps but my first stator fried about 500 miles after I soldered the connections.  I will not solder them again.

H₂O

[Coil Coyle]

Bummer.   :P

I'm still keeping the connector.  I check it regularly & keep the contacts clean & covered with dielectric grease.  If you feel better soldering the connection, go for it.  Probably helps but my first stator fried about 500 miles after I soldered the connections.  I will not solder them again.

H₂O

H2O, You're not supposed to solder them all into one connection.
;D
Coil

[h2olawyer]

D'oh!  Is that what I did wrong?!?   ::)

Since I replaced stators twice in just over a year, I will not be soldering them again.  Too much of a painin the arse.  I'll just keep a close eye on the connector & make sure it's spotless.  Instead of solder, I may use posi-lock connectors.

H₂O